I think it's good that MCSkinedit gets some competition. Competition always gets people to work harder and improve on their work.
I played around with the mcskin3d and it has improved quite significantly for just 1 update, but there are still some minor problems...
Great that you stuck in shortcuts, but they are hard to reach. Ctrl + shift + e makes it a bit inconvenient for your fingers... especially if you're trying to draw. How about just shift + left click for an example for the dropper tool or right click to erase. Other features like burn and shade tool just holding down ctrl + left click to shade, ctrl + right click to lighten.
Shortcuts are modifyable via options. As strange as it may sound, I hate keyboard shortcuts and I almost never use them aside from the basic operations, so it's a little tough for me to figure out the best default setup, so I made sure that it's customizable down to the last control.
Speaking of Dodge/Burn, would it be more efficient if it was one tool and it used a modifier for the operation? I was kind of going by Photoshop/GIMP, but, maybe that would be easier for you guys.
That's about it. I don't feel like I have the right to suggest too many things, but I am trying to help you improve on it. Just... from an artists point of view anyway, if I were to use the program seriously.
You're the end user, I'm the developer; if you never suggest things, the program remains in its first state. Please, PLEASE suggest things; all developers are screaming in tandem at people who think they have no right to suggest things, especially in an open software environment! Minecraft is a community game, and Notch appreciates your comments just as much as I do :smile.gif:
Sorry to be crass, but, I'm a programmer and I'm very protective about my work:
Would you care to at least TRY the program? You would see right off the bat that MCSkin3D has quite a different toolset and a focus on THREE DIMENSIONAL skinning rather than texture mapping. While yes it does have texture skinning, that's just an obvious addition due to the fact that it's a skin editor. I'm sorry if swatches, colors and a pencil is stolen from MCSkinEdit, but it seems to me like nobody would use my program sans them.
Another useful thing to point out is that MCSkin3D is also a skin management program, letting you easily store your skins in a safe place (separate from your main "skins" folder you may have elsewhere on your harddrive), and also let you directly upload to Minecraft.net in the click of one button.
I haven't actually tried Skinedit before, and I'm most certainly NOT an artist, but so far MCSkin3D seems pretty good! I DID find a problem though, Paril:
If you try to undo or redo when there's nothing there, it'll cause problems. Sometimes it's hard to replicate, but just spam ctrl+z, and believe me, it'll happen. Often times I'll spam the ctrl+z button until there's nothing (and then some), so I found myself having to press okay a few times while starting to make a skin. I'll show what I managed to create next post, just thought it was a good idea to throw this error out there.
I haven't actually tried Skinedit before, and I'm most certainly NOT an artist, but so far MCSkin3D seems pretty good! I DID find a problem though, Paril:
If you try to undo or redo when there's nothing there, it'll cause problems. Sometimes it's hard to replicate, but just spam ctrl+z, and believe me, it'll happen. Often times I'll spam the ctrl+z button until there's nothing (and then some), so I found myself having to press okay a few times while starting to make a skin. I'll show what I managed to create next post, just thought it was a good idea to throw this error out there.
Totally scripted. Almost like someone told you what to post! :tongue.gif:
Anyway yes, that is a little issue I have figured out. Oddly enough I created it while I was creating the keyboard shortcut code.
Any developers who wish to aid with the development, pass me a message or drop me an email.
Please forgive the dirtiness, I'm about to do a major cleanup of the code before adding new features.
Maybe add a selection tool and noise? I dunno, just throwing out suggestions.
Noise is planned (see the main post).
As for selection, I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to handle that - would it really be required (aside from, say, masking pieces so you don't accidentally draw over other pieces) and how would it work in the 3D view?
I appreciate the suggestions, and will mark down selection as a possible future utility.
The selection could be used to only add noise to specific areas, so the skin doesn't look like a mess of colours.
And I rarely read the whole post.
Yeah I figured that that was pretty much the only use for selection at this point, perhaps it'd be better off as a "select face" sort of deal.
When dealing with programs you should, else you'll miss vital information and just require me to repeat information that's already been written. Similar to reading readmes - us developers don't type them out for nobody to read.
Haha, okaaaaaay I forgive you only because I'm the same way (I like figuring programs out myself first because it lets me suggest better methods of making things obvious).
My other friend suggested it as well, the only issue is it's kind of a feature that may not be very useful when you're dealing with such a tiny resolution image.
I'll give this a run and see what thoughts I have concerning it. :biggrin.gif:
I use SkinEdit regularly, and there are definitely some fussy issues over which I would definitely switch to another stand-alone editing program. I'm very familiar with many image-editing and illustration programs outside of ones created for Minecraft skins, so I have input on ways some other programs resolve some of the shortcut issues.
From the screenshot, it looks like it has a much cleaner 3D render (something I like about the online Minecraft skin editors, whereas SkinEdit's preview makes me dizzy when I try to figure out colors because it's so pixilated/low-res), so I'm excited for its development! I hope this means it allows for picking more subtly-different colors than SkinEdit does. Many colors picked from the HSV box or by altering RGB values turn out identical, even though they should be slightly different, so I always have to take my pixel work into an image editing program for color adjustments. :/ I would love not to have jump among programs for something one program can solve.
My thoughts on tool shortcuts (somewhat long, and may not be relevant if you've already resolved it):
The most popular image editing software allows you to simply hit a key to switch to the tool that corresponds to that letter. Photoshop doesn't mess with Ctrl/Alt/Shift in the toolbox save for toggling among different tools within the main tool family (which shouldn't be necessary for Minecraft skinning - there shouldn't be that many tools); brush is "B," eraser is "E", "[" and "]" are shortcuts to decrease and increase the brush size by 1, etc. - usually just the first letter of the tool name. Strangely, I don't use the fill/gradient tool enough to remember its shortcut...
On the note of Ctrl/Alt/Shift+left/right-click with a brush, I'm used to left-click painting the foreground/selected color and right-clicking doing any of either:
- paints with the background/alternate color (does not seem applicable here unless you allow the selection of two colors)
- work as an eraser
- is a shortcut to pick up color, or
- brings up a drop-down menu with canvas options, tool options, or other options
In programs I find most convenient, the shortcut to pick up color is either Ctrl or Alt + left-click (or right-click if you can store two colors for use) or simply right-click.
Shift+click usually forces the brush tool create a straight line in some way or other (in Photoshop it can restrict your stroke to a straight line in a particular direction, and in both GIMP and Photoshop allows you to click one spot, then hold shift and click another spot to make a straight line connecting the two points). I would almost suggest avoiding shift for anything other than this or its typical "add selection" function with the selection tool, but I'm trying to consider whether people use the line tool very much for skins.
As for dodge and burn... I'm used to avoiding that tool like the plague save for any needed touch-ups (never use it as a complete substitute for real shading), so usually I'm fine with that being its own tool entirely separate from the brush. If others are interested in using it regularly, however, I don't see the harm in holding down a key while drawing to dodge/burn.
Just some info to mull over if you weren't familiar with it already. :smile.gif: I come from the artist side and miserably failed the programming side, lol.
I'll give this a run and see what thoughts I have concerning it. :biggrin.gif:
I use SkinEdit regularly, and there are definitely some fussy issues over which I would definitely switch to another stand-alone editing program. I'm also very well-versed with many image-editing and illustration programs outside of ones created for Minecraft skins, so I have input on ways some other programs resolve some of the shortcut issues.
From the screenshot, it looks like it has a much cleaner 3D render (something I like about the online Minecraft skin editors, whereas SkinEdit's preview makes me dizzy when I try to figure out colors because it's so pixilated/low-res), so I'm excited for its development! I hope this means it allows for picking more subtly-different colors than SkinEdit does. Many colors picked from the HSV box or by altering RGB values turn out identical, even though they should be slightly different, so I always have to take my pixel work into an image editing program for color adjustments. :/ I would love not to have jump among programs for something one program can solve.
Hi there! I'm glad to find another high-rep artist to help out with testing. We need people from all over the community, new or well-established, to help with this!
MCSkin3D uses OpenGL for rendering, the same rendering API that Minecraft uses, so it's probably the closest you'll ever get. The one in SkinEdit appears to be a software renderer, hence the fuzziness.
The swatches' color values are all separate (see the Swatches/ folder, the .swc files are just plain text), so you shouldn't have any trouble there.
My thoughts on tool shortcuts (somewhat long, and may not be relevant if you've already resolved it):
The most popular image editing software allows you to simply hit a key to switch to the tool that corresponds to that letter. Photoshop doesn't mess with Ctrl/Alt/Shift in the toolbox save for toggling among different tools within the main tool family (which shouldn't be necessary for Minecraft skinning - there shouldn't be that many tools); brush is "B," eraser is "E", "[" and "]" are shortcuts to decrease and increase the brush size by 1, etc. - usually just the first letter of the tool name. Strangely, I don't use the fill/gradient tool enough to remember its shortcut...
On the note of Ctrl/Alt/Shift+left/right-click with a brush, I'm used to left-click painting the foreground/selected color and right-clicking doing any of either:
- paints with the background/alternate color (does not seem applicable here unless you allow the selection of two colors)
- work as an eraser
- is a shortcut to pick up color, or
- brings up a drop-down menu with canvas options, tool options, or other options
I'll take all of this into account while messing with the default options. If you wish to help, set up the shortcuts to how you like it, open up "settings.ini" and copy/paste the ShortcutKeys line to me.
In programs I find most convenient, the shortcut to pick up color is either Ctrl or Alt + left-click (or right-click if you can store two colors for use) or simply right-click.
Speaking of this, is secondary color something that I should think about? I have it written down somewhere but I haven't gotten any input about it.
Shift+click usually forces the brush tool create a straight line in some way or other (in Photoshop it can restrict your stroke to a straight line in a particular direction, and in both GIMP and Photoshop allows you to click one spot, then hold shift and click another spot to make a straight line connecting the two points). I would almost suggest avoiding shift for anything other than this or its typical "add selection" function with the selection tool, but I'm trying to consider whether people use the line tool very much for skins.
I'm not sure if I'll be worrying about any shape tools for the time being, just because of the same reason for not including a gradient tool (with the resolution, it's almost a useless feature). If it does get a lot of requests, I'll do it though.
As for dodge and burn... I'm used to avoiding that tool like the plague save for any needed touch-ups (never use it as a complete substitute for real shading), so usually I'm fine with that being its own tool entirely separate from the brush. If others are interested in using it regularly, however, I don't see the harm in holding down a key while drawing to dodge/burn.
Fair enough. Don't worry, anything that changes the way you use tools will be completely customizable by the end-user. I'm currently mulling over a way to customize tools bound to different mouse + modifier combinations.
Just some info to mull over if you weren't familiar with it already. :smile.gif: I come from the artist side and miserably failed the programming side, lol.
You don't know until you try! Funnily enough, I'm probably the worst artist you'll ever meet. As with everyone, if you wish to help me with testing a bit more, add me on MSN or Skype and I'll make sure you get any betas that need testing.
I started out as a computer engineering major and swapped to art after the first year. My programming never worked right! I'll be content with just trying to get redstone circuitry to do what I want. :biggrin.gif:
On the note of gradient tool - I also enjoy using this sometimes. I agree that there would either have to be a selection tool for it or a layer system, though, but I like the effect it can help create and believe it would definitely receive much use. That is one of the reasons I import some skins to another image editor for extra work (as well as the ability to use layers with options such as multiply/overlay/dodge/burn/soft light/hard light/etc.).
GRADIENT!!!
If it seems awkward for use in 3D mode, maybe restrict it so it can only be used in 2D mode? That still would already offer way more than many skin editors. It'd also answer the question about whether there should be two selected colors or one - can't really have a gradient without two colors.
I'm playing around with the program a bit now and looking over the suggestions. 3D preview for the 2D editor (or vice versa? viewports maybe? not sure how I'm going to fit that in there) - Would you be able to make a floating preview window? Perhaps if that were possible, the user could move it around the screen and put it where it works for him/her? I know exactly where I'd want a preview window hovering, but I'm not sure if you can very easily make it float outside of the program as GIMP and some others allow. Folder support for skins (something like a tree) - This could be nice, actually, if this is intended in the way I understand it. Online skin repository? - So long as things don't get tossed up for public view automatically like with NovaSkin, I don't have any preference on this idea. Block & mob texturing support - The mob skins confuse me a bit aside from the obvious zombie. Yay if you get around to it. HSV/HSL tab - Yus! I change the tools I use for picking color depending on what I'm trying to do. Posing - This is another big, big thing I'd jump programs for. Preset poses are fine, though if there's any possible way to rig the model so skin artists could pose the limbs and head themselves, that would be absolutely awesome. Sometimes I just want to lift one arm to figure out what the heck is going on with the entire shoulder area. Screenshot - Definitely! Especially desired if you could also save custom poses for the model for a trademark preview pose in a skin shop, for example.
I'll play with it more later today and try to seriously work on a skin to see if I have any particular suggestions or problems, but I really like it so far. Directly painting on the model and not needing to be online to do so (and deal with lag or a poor connection) is lovely.
I started out as a computer engineering major and swapped to art after the first year. My programming never worked right! I'll be content with just trying to get redstone circuitry to do what I want. :biggrin.gif:
On the note of gradient tool - I also enjoy using this sometimes. I agree that there would either have to be a selection tool for it or a layer system, though, but I like the effect it can help create and believe it would definitely receive much use. That is one of the reasons I import some skins to another image editor for extra work (as well as the ability to use layers with options such as multiply/overlay/dodge/burn/soft light/hard light/etc.).
If it seems awkward for use in 3D mode, maybe restrict it so it can only be used in 2D mode? That still would already offer way more than many skin editors. It'd also answer the question about whether there should be two selected colors or one - can't really have a gradient without two colors.
I'm playing around with the program a bit now and looking over the suggestions. 3D preview for the 2D editor (or vice versa? viewports maybe? not sure how I'm going to fit that in there) - Would you be able to make a floating preview window? Perhaps if that were possible, the user could move it around the screen and put it where it works for him/her? I know exactly where I'd want a preview window hovering, but I'm not sure if you can very easily make it float outside of the program as GIMP and some others allow. Folder support for skins (something like a tree) - This could be nice, actually, if this is intended in the way I understand it. Online skin repository? - So long as things don't get tossed up for public view automatically like with NovaSkin, I don't have any preference on this idea. Block & mob texturing support - The mob skins confuse me a bit aside from the obvious zombie. Yay if you get around to it. HSV/HSL tab - Yus! I change the tools I use for picking color depending on what I'm trying to do. Posing - This is another big, big thing I'd jump programs for. Preset poses are fine, though if there's any possible way to rig the model so skin artists could pose the limbs and head themselves, that would be absolutely awesome. Sometimes I just want to lift one arm to figure out what the heck is going on with the entire shoulder area. Screenshot - Definitely! Especially desired if you could also save custom poses for the model for a trademark preview pose in a skin shop, for example.
I'll play with it more later today and try to seriously work on a skin to see if I have any particular suggestions or problems, but I really like it so far. Directly painting on the model and not needing to be online to do so (and deal with lag or a poor connection) is lovely.
Screenshotting has been implemented in my working copy.
I was thinking about a floating window as well, or possibly moving to a multi-document interface like Photoshop, but I'm not sure yet.
Posing is indeed important, but exactly how I'm going to achieve it I don't know yet. I don't really want to go full force implementing a skeleton system and then requiring rigging to each different mob and player, but that seems to be what you and Varuna would want when it comes to being able to see things. I had implemented "Part Visibility" as a quick and easy way to hide other parts so you can get behind things (another idea aside from this is to make parts ghost rather than completely invisible).
Would you like to help beta test? A few of the features are already implemented in the 1.2 beta, and I'm working on a few fixes at the moment.
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Curse PremiumShortcuts are modifyable via options. As strange as it may sound, I hate keyboard shortcuts and I almost never use them aside from the basic operations, so it's a little tough for me to figure out the best default setup, so I made sure that it's customizable down to the last control.
Speaking of Dodge/Burn, would it be more efficient if it was one tool and it used a modifier for the operation? I was kind of going by Photoshop/GIMP, but, maybe that would be easier for you guys.
Just some basic OpenGL :tongue.gif:
You're the end user, I'm the developer; if you never suggest things, the program remains in its first state. Please, PLEASE suggest things; all developers are screaming in tandem at people who think they have no right to suggest things, especially in an open software environment! Minecraft is a community game, and Notch appreciates your comments just as much as I do :smile.gif:
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Curse PremiumSorry to be crass, but, I'm a programmer and I'm very protective about my work:
Would you care to at least TRY the program? You would see right off the bat that MCSkin3D has quite a different toolset and a focus on THREE DIMENSIONAL skinning rather than texture mapping. While yes it does have texture skinning, that's just an obvious addition due to the fact that it's a skin editor. I'm sorry if swatches, colors and a pencil is stolen from MCSkinEdit, but it seems to me like nobody would use my program sans them.
Another useful thing to point out is that MCSkin3D is also a skin management program, letting you easily store your skins in a safe place (separate from your main "skins" folder you may have elsewhere on your harddrive), and also let you directly upload to Minecraft.net in the click of one button.
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Curse PremiumI appreciate the comment, let me know if there's anything that can be done to improve your skinning experience.
-P
If you try to undo or redo when there's nothing there, it'll cause problems. Sometimes it's hard to replicate, but just spam ctrl+z, and believe me, it'll happen. Often times I'll spam the ctrl+z button until there's nothing (and then some), so I found myself having to press okay a few times while starting to make a skin. I'll show what I managed to create next post, just thought it was a good idea to throw this error out there.
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Curse PremiumTotally scripted. Almost like someone told you what to post! :tongue.gif:
Anyway yes, that is a little issue I have figured out. Oddly enough I created it while I was creating the keyboard shortcut code.
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Curse PremiumAny developers who wish to aid with the development, pass me a message or drop me an email.
Please forgive the dirtiness, I'm about to do a major cleanup of the code before adding new features.
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Curse PremiumNoise is planned (see the main post).
As for selection, I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to handle that - would it really be required (aside from, say, masking pieces so you don't accidentally draw over other pieces) and how would it work in the 3D view?
I appreciate the suggestions, and will mark down selection as a possible future utility.
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Curse PremiumYeah I figured that that was pretty much the only use for selection at this point, perhaps it'd be better off as a "select face" sort of deal.
When dealing with programs you should, else you'll miss vital information and just require me to repeat information that's already been written. Similar to reading readmes - us developers don't type them out for nobody to read.
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Curse PremiumMy other friend suggested it as well, the only issue is it's kind of a feature that may not be very useful when you're dealing with such a tiny resolution image.
-P
I use SkinEdit regularly, and there are definitely some fussy issues over which I would definitely switch to another stand-alone editing program. I'm very familiar with many image-editing and illustration programs outside of ones created for Minecraft skins, so I have input on ways some other programs resolve some of the shortcut issues.
From the screenshot, it looks like it has a much cleaner 3D render (something I like about the online Minecraft skin editors, whereas SkinEdit's preview makes me dizzy when I try to figure out colors because it's so pixilated/low-res), so I'm excited for its development! I hope this means it allows for picking more subtly-different colors than SkinEdit does. Many colors picked from the HSV box or by altering RGB values turn out identical, even though they should be slightly different, so I always have to take my pixel work into an image editing program for color adjustments. :/ I would love not to have jump among programs for something one program can solve.
My thoughts on tool shortcuts (somewhat long, and may not be relevant if you've already resolved it):
On the note of Ctrl/Alt/Shift+left/right-click with a brush, I'm used to left-click painting the foreground/selected color and right-clicking doing any of either:
- paints with the background/alternate color (does not seem applicable here unless you allow the selection of two colors)
- work as an eraser
- is a shortcut to pick up color, or
- brings up a drop-down menu with canvas options, tool options, or other options
In programs I find most convenient, the shortcut to pick up color is either Ctrl or Alt + left-click (or right-click if you can store two colors for use) or simply right-click.
Shift+click usually forces the brush tool create a straight line in some way or other (in Photoshop it can restrict your stroke to a straight line in a particular direction, and in both GIMP and Photoshop allows you to click one spot, then hold shift and click another spot to make a straight line connecting the two points). I would almost suggest avoiding shift for anything other than this or its typical "add selection" function with the selection tool, but I'm trying to consider whether people use the line tool very much for skins.
As for dodge and burn... I'm used to avoiding that tool like the plague save for any needed touch-ups (never use it as a complete substitute for real shading), so usually I'm fine with that being its own tool entirely separate from the brush. If others are interested in using it regularly, however, I don't see the harm in holding down a key while drawing to dodge/burn.
Just some info to mull over if you weren't familiar with it already. :smile.gif: I come from the artist side and miserably failed the programming side, lol.
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Curse PremiumHi there! I'm glad to find another high-rep artist to help out with testing. We need people from all over the community, new or well-established, to help with this!
MCSkin3D uses OpenGL for rendering, the same rendering API that Minecraft uses, so it's probably the closest you'll ever get. The one in SkinEdit appears to be a software renderer, hence the fuzziness.
The swatches' color values are all separate (see the Swatches/ folder, the .swc files are just plain text), so you shouldn't have any trouble there.
I'll take all of this into account while messing with the default options. If you wish to help, set up the shortcuts to how you like it, open up "settings.ini" and copy/paste the ShortcutKeys line to me.
Speaking of this, is secondary color something that I should think about? I have it written down somewhere but I haven't gotten any input about it.
I'm not sure if I'll be worrying about any shape tools for the time being, just because of the same reason for not including a gradient tool (with the resolution, it's almost a useless feature). If it does get a lot of requests, I'll do it though.
Fair enough. Don't worry, anything that changes the way you use tools will be completely customizable by the end-user. I'm currently mulling over a way to customize tools bound to different mouse + modifier combinations.
You don't know until you try! Funnily enough, I'm probably the worst artist you'll ever meet. As with everyone, if you wish to help me with testing a bit more, add me on MSN or Skype and I'll make sure you get any betas that need testing.
-P
On the note of gradient tool - I also enjoy using this sometimes. I agree that there would either have to be a selection tool for it or a layer system, though, but I like the effect it can help create and believe it would definitely receive much use. That is one of the reasons I import some skins to another image editor for extra work (as well as the ability to use layers with options such as multiply/overlay/dodge/burn/soft light/hard light/etc.).
I'm playing around with the program a bit now and looking over the suggestions.
3D preview for the 2D editor (or vice versa? viewports maybe? not sure how I'm going to fit that in there) - Would you be able to make a floating preview window? Perhaps if that were possible, the user could move it around the screen and put it where it works for him/her? I know exactly where I'd want a preview window hovering, but I'm not sure if you can very easily make it float outside of the program as GIMP and some others allow.
Folder support for skins (something like a tree) - This could be nice, actually, if this is intended in the way I understand it.
Online skin repository? - So long as things don't get tossed up for public view automatically like with NovaSkin, I don't have any preference on this idea.
Block & mob texturing support - The mob skins confuse me a bit aside from the obvious zombie. Yay if you get around to it.
HSV/HSL tab - Yus! I change the tools I use for picking color depending on what I'm trying to do.
Posing - This is another big, big thing I'd jump programs for. Preset poses are fine, though if there's any possible way to rig the model so skin artists could pose the limbs and head themselves, that would be absolutely awesome. Sometimes I just want to lift one arm to figure out what the heck is going on with the entire shoulder area.
Screenshot - Definitely! Especially desired if you could also save custom poses for the model for a trademark preview pose in a skin shop, for example.
I'll play with it more later today and try to seriously work on a skin to see if I have any particular suggestions or problems, but I really like it so far. Directly painting on the model and not needing to be online to do so (and deal with lag or a poor connection) is lovely.
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Curse PremiumScreenshotting has been implemented in my working copy.
I was thinking about a floating window as well, or possibly moving to a multi-document interface like Photoshop, but I'm not sure yet.
Posing is indeed important, but exactly how I'm going to achieve it I don't know yet. I don't really want to go full force implementing a skeleton system and then requiring rigging to each different mob and player, but that seems to be what you and Varuna would want when it comes to being able to see things. I had implemented "Part Visibility" as a quick and easy way to hide other parts so you can get behind things (another idea aside from this is to make parts ghost rather than completely invisible).
Would you like to help beta test? A few of the features are already implemented in the 1.2 beta, and I'm working on a few fixes at the moment.
-P