Preface:
For a while now, I've noticed that people don't seem to know how to properly request textures (or anything really).
This is intended as a guide for potential requesters to make the process painless for both sides.
Guide Proper:
So - You need a texture done. You post in this section hoping for the best, but sometimes good intentions aren't enough.
It should go without saying that most of these points are equally valid for any kind of request.
When posting a request thread, remember about the following points:
1) What?
This is the most important part that surprisingly many people miss. In short, give us a short description of what you need - Is it a mob texture, an item or a block? How should it look like and what does it do? The more info you give the better. Worst case scenario is that the artist will have to skip some impossible details.
2) How?
This is connected to the former. If you want a specific style or resolution for the textures, you also need to mention that. We aren't psychic. We won't figure out that the anime sword you wanted was supposed to be 64x and made in Doku style unless you tell us.
3) Why?
Again, background info - What do you need the textures for? Are you trying to recruit people for a mod? How big is it? Do you have anything to show code-wise?
If you want someone to work on your textures for a larger project, you should prove that it's worth their while. I'm not telling you to pay them, just have the common courtesy to show some of your work if you expect the same from them.
4) Be patient
Most of us have jobs, families or go to schools (Pick one). Keep in mind that you will not get your texture right away. Making textures takes time, which some people don't have much to spare. Furthermore, you also need to remember that there is no guarantee that anyone will take your request.
5) Be considerate
This is an international forum with people posting from various different time zones from across the globe. Therefore keep in mind that just because it's late afternoon where you live, doesn't mean that the other person hasn't just woken up, or is tired after work.
Furthermore, don't go around telling people you'll "Give more info on Skype". Nor should you make them send you and email, PM, fax message or a letter pigeon.
Just stop and think what you're doing - You want people to call you just to get the information that you should have provided in the opening post.
Not only is this a jerk move, it's just inconvenient, especially since no one is going to record this, so after the conversation is done, you're forcing the artist to remember everything you said instead of presenting it in a comfortable, written fashion.
Remember - You are the one who wants the texture. That's why it should be in your best interest to make your request as clear as possible. If you don't care enough to flesh out your request, neither will we.
Thanks Taiine!
6) Don't request texture packs
That's right, don't do that. They take way too much time for anyone to just make one for your map or server, and as such nobody will do these. And even if they do, it might take months.
If you really have to request a texture pack, do so in a "Looking for ideas" thread instead of starting a new one. It's a match made in heaven - You want a TP, they want ideas for one. This works both ways of course.
Thanks Alvoria!
7) Be reasonable
You finally managed to coax someone into making a texture pack for you. Great!
But after that - You're on your own.
Do not expect people to update and maintain your new texture pack. The job is done and the artist moves on. They already went out of their way to fulfill your request, so they have no obligation whatsoever towards you.
Thanks corner_g!
8) Make the post readable
Alright, you posted all the necessary info, but nobody ever responds? Maybe it's because you went overboard with writing an essay and created a bloated Wall of Text.
Writing as much info as possible is the most important thing, but if it's a long post, please remember to edit it properly. Add paragraphs, spaces and all that good stuff (Like what I'm trying to do now).
And for the love of Azura, don't add random emoticons or other such random crap. It's just causing us to eye-roll and sigh rather than making us curious.
9) Show some respect
Even if you are paying the artist to commission a texture, that still does not make you the boss of them.
Just because they're getting money doesn't give you a right to act like a jerk or demand that they do it EXACTLY the way you want it.
This means that You can't force them to use voice communication to receive info, or make them use a different graphical application than they are comfortable with.
The bottom line is that they are not bound by any means to finish your request/commission. So if annoy them too much, they're going to quit and make damn sure to warn others away.
10) Think it through
No, really - Do it.
Think about it - How would the texture pack be any different from all the normal ones out there?
You just played this new fantasy game and liked it, we get that. But don't instantly hit the forums asking people to make a texture pack for it. Making one especially to look like game A or B would be just wasted effort.
11) Do some research
You'd be surprised how many times certain things were requested, or even done. Case in point - There are numerous Zelda themed texture packs, so just use the search bar before you post.
Show your work. If you are requesting a colaborative helping thing, than people will want to know what you've done so far. Something not to do: Hi everybody, I'm making a texture pack and I'm wondering if someone could work on it with me. I would be grateful!
And now a word from our sponsor, in response to requesting texture packs:
Quote from Taiine »
You sadly will be told the same thing everyone else is told when they make a request for a pack: Try making your own
Texture packs are no easy thing to make, at least if you want it to be any good. Many packs can take weeks, even months to make, many of us spending hours on just a single texture making sure the colors are right, and that there are no tileing or pattern errors, or may remake textures over and over until we are happy with it. It is not something that can be whipped together in a few hours, or days unless you're after something very simple.
That said most of us have jobs, or school and would rather spend our free time working on the packs we have going then using that time to make a pack -just- for one person, or one map/server.
Disclaimer:
I am perfectly aware that, as with all guides on this page, those who should read it the most, will not.
But at least I have a clear conscience now.
If i missed anything, be sure to tell me.
On a side note - whatever happened to the consolidated request thread? Did it get buried?
On a side note - whatever happened to the consolidated request thread? Did it get buried?
Request Central? Yea, it's long gone. People weren't seeing/using it and not a lot of the requests were getting done.
Shame really.
Good rant/guide though. Hopefully someone will see it and think about what they're posting or requesting.
May I also make a suggestion? Every now and again, I see a thread by a would-be pack creator asking for suggestions. Wouldn't it be great if people who wanted to request packs posted in these threads where their requests/ideas were desired... or vice-versa.
Request Central? Yea, it's long gone. People weren't seeing/using it and not a lot of the requests were getting done.
Shame really.
Shame indeed, i really liked having all those requests in one place
May I also make a suggestion? Every now and again, I see a thread by a would-be pack creator asking for suggestions. Wouldn't it be great if people who wanted to request packs posted in these threads where their requests/ideas were desired... or vice-versa.
*HUG* Now I have something to link to when people request whole packs.
I have someone currently wanting to pay me to make them a few textures... or so I think. But they seem to INSIST on talking and giving the info over mumble rather than typing it out like I'd request due to well, we can't seem to be on at the same time due to work.
Perhaps add something reguarding this as well? It seems out right ridicules to say 'no info will be given here, only over voice chat'. when he could have had his stuff -done by now- if he wasn't being so darn picky. Even if your paying -we- are the ones who are going to make the textures and if you don't want to comply with how we want the info given to us... ie. I rather it be typed up so all the details are there for the reading and over view, then to be told over voice chat and have details forgotten or mis-heard or a risk of them saying one thing then turning around going 'I never said that'...
*HUG* Now I have something to link to when people request whole packs.
D'aaaaw ^^
I have someone currently wanting to pay me to make them a few textures... or so I think. But they seem to INSIST on talking and giving the info over mumble rather than typing it out like I'd request due to well, we can't seem to be on at the same time due to work.
Perhaps add something reguarding this as well? It seems out right ridicules to say 'no info will be given here, only over voice chat'. when he could have had his stuff -done by now- if he wasn't being so darn picky. Even if your paying -we- are the ones who are going to make the textures and if you don't want to comply with how we want the info given to us... ie. I rather it be typed up so all the details are there for the reading and over view, then to be told over voice chat and have details forgotten or mis-heard or a risk of them saying one thing then turning around going 'I never said that'...
I kinda thought that was implied, but you're right - It's better to spell it out. *Gets to it*
Personally - Whenever someone asks me for my Skype login i just outright refuse.
We finally have a directory for people requesting crap in poor fashion and sitting, wondering why no one will help! I have seen a few request threads on the texture discussion and improperly placed on the main texture packs forum since I started lurking here in 2011, but I have noticed that the numbers of these requests seem to be increasing exponentially, and the amount of these formatted cheaply seems to be getting more... Bad. I see a lot of "I want a texture pack!" threads around, and after checking 90% of them, I rarely know what they want, where they are going to use it, or what my incentive is. It really bugs me to see that, and it bugs me even more when I see people get impatient because no one jump out of their seats (or into them in this case, I suppose) and started working on a brand new pack for their little maps they started. I've gotten myself stuck in one of those death-traps once, and once you get into one, you really want to get out of it, but it is really hard to. It also needs to be maintained, which is my cut-off point; even if I actually make you a pack, I will not maintain it and keep it up-to-date. Once I get far enough, I'm done. Perhaps you could add something on that? Maintenance there-after?
Another thing that bugs me is that, a lot of these requests either start with crap or end with crap. When I say crap, in this case I mean all of this "raining bacon - " or "Notch approves " Or whatever crap they randomly put at the end of their post. I don't understand what their intent is, if it is to spruce up their post, or if it is because they actually are mentally unstable and click random buttons uncontrollably. It just makes it look like you don't care. Just in general. I would ask for you to put something about that in, but I'm not sure if that is not too forum-wide to put in this. That would be your choice, I guess.
Nice job on the thread!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Fare well everyone! My time to retire has come! "And with that, POW! I'm gone." ---Lord Crump
Well I declined the guys offer and linked em to here. out $50 but frig sakes don't care, You can't be demanding people use voice chat to give out info when you're making a -request- even if it's a paid one.
There is nothing that you can't say over voice chat that you can't say in a PRIVATE Pm. As is we haven't even been on at the same time to send these messages back and forth, and he expects me to fiddle around and wait for him to come on? I have a job you know, I'll be damned if I'm missing work, or staying up late just so he can tell me what he could have told me ages ago in text.
Also suggest changing the topic title to something like: How to properly request textures
Otherwise it looks like another basic request topic.
We finally have a directory for people requesting crap in poor fashion and sitting, wondering why no one will help! I have seen a few request threads on the texture discussion and improperly placed on the main texture packs forum since I started lurking here in 2011, but I have noticed that the numbers of these requests seem to be increasing exponentially, and the amount of these formatted cheaply seems to be getting more... Bad. I see a lot of "I want a texture pack!" threads around, and after checking 90% of them, I rarely know what they want, where they are going to use it, or what my incentive is. It really bugs me to see that, and it bugs me even more when I see people get impatient because no one jump out of their seats (or into them in this case, I suppose) and started working on a brand new pack for their little maps they started.
So it's not just me then. I was under the impression that Texture Discussion suffered greatly while i was away - There's a lot less activity than before, and the requests have gotten poorer.
I've gotten myself stuck in one of those death-traps once, and once you get into one, you really want to get out of it, but it is really hard to.
Ugh, same here. Did some nice textures for the guy, but I had to literally tear the information out of his throat. In the end i just said "F***k it" and quit.
I've noticed that those who put up application forms with some unnecessary info are usually a clear sign of danger to be avoided.
It also needs to be maintained, which is my cut-off point; even if I actually make you a pack, I will not maintain it and keep it up-to-date. Once I get far enough, I'm done. Perhaps you could add something on that? Maintenance there-after?
Ahhh, excellent point again
Another thing that bugs me is that, a lot of these requests either start with crap or end with crap. When I say crap, in this case I mean all of this "raining bacon - " or "Notch approves " Or whatever crap they randomly put at the end of their post. I don't understand what their intent is, if it is to spruce up their post, or if it is because they actually are mentally unstable and click random buttons uncontrollably. It just makes it look like you don't care. Just in general. I would ask for you to put something about that in, but I'm not sure if that is not too forum-wide to put in this. That would be your choice, I guess.
My word, yes! I think the motivation is to appear humorous, but... I just don't know how it could ever be funny. I'll probably add it, but I agree that this is a forum wide issue rather than section specific.
Nice job on the thread!
Thanks Also - If anyone thinks of a more eloquent way to put my points, make sure to tell me, i usually just try to put them up ASAP
Well I declined the guys offer and linked em to here. out $50 but frig sakes don't care, You can't be demanding people use voice chat to give out info when you're making a -request- even if it's a paid one.
Good Sometimes it's just better to skip the extra dosh and keep the sanity. Who knows how many job offers I've turned down because they looked like a nightmare in the making
Also suggest changing the topic title to something like: How to properly request textures
Otherwise it looks like another basic request topic.
That was my original intent, but I figured that this title would bring more attention from the people it's aimed at. I suppose I can change it...
Well, I have revised the post that most likely started your post here. Followed your guide, hopefully made it better.
Is it approved?
It's... better, yes. But it's still missing some stuff IMHO. For one thing - There's absolutely no reason why people shouldn't show off their futuristic textures, as they still show someone's skill, for example:
Picture A proves that I can do a tolerable texture as much as Picture B does.
What you probably should do is just put up a list of textures you need ASAP and just ask people to do these instead of applying like that.
This post is starting to get bloated like an Unclean One
What you probably should do is just put up a list of textures you need ASAP and just ask people to do these instead of applying like that.
At least descriptions of the textures you want. I understand wanting to keep the mod a secret, but you can describe the "look" you want for a block for the artists without giving away what they're for in-mod.
Remember: "A metal barrel filled with a green liquid" might be toxic waste... or a St. Patty's day keg. It all depends on what label you put on it afterwards.
Wow, this has turned into one of the most sticky-worthy threads I've seen in a long time. Great job! (And you're welcome)
Oh dear
At least descriptions of the textures you want. I understand wanting to keep the mod a secret, but you can describe the "look" you want for a block for the artists without giving away what they're for in-mod.
Remember: "A metal barrel filled with a green liquid" might be toxic waste... or a St. Patty's day keg. It all depends on what label you put on it afterwards.
Yeah, kinda what i was trying to communicate. And I forgot to mention the secrecy thanks
Right, with mods obscurity works against you. You need to mention specific features that you are going to add precisely to make people want to play it. I'm not saying you need to add everything straight away, but you probably should mention some planned mechanics.
Add something about being paid. as the guy I linked back disregarded your whole skipe thing because 'well you're getting paid so you do things my way' nonsense. Sorry I'm not taking details over voice chat when we could just as easy (6 replies in this message thus far) have typed up the info and be done by now.
Add something about being paid. as the guy I linked back disregarded your whole skipe thing because 'well you're getting paid so you do things my way' nonsense. Sorry I'm not taking details over voice chat when we could just as easy (6 replies in this message thus far) have typed up the info and be done by now.
I'm not too sure about this one. I mean, i wholeheartedly agree, of course, but is it really prevalent enough to mention?
The little post you quoted up there ^, yeah nothing about it says paying. if i give you money you do it how i need it.
Yeah rude sucker. Sorry, still not making this deal over voice chat.. you're requesting, and in the end commissioning me to do work... this is like if he came up and said "You're not allowed to use photoshop to make theme, you must use this other program, you must because I'm paying you."
There's absolutely no reason why people shouldn't show off their futuristic textures
There's every reason to ask not to. This may sound selfish, but we wrote the application stating we weren't interested basically in futuristic textures. It's a simple request, and I made sure to add if they can make a small image in the style we are looking for. I don't want to have a Texture Artist who is amazing at what we don't need but bad at what we do need if you understand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This is an image. Images need to be either looked at or poked. I'd recommend poking it.
Yeah rude sucker. Sorry, still not making this deal over voice chat.. you're requesting, and in the end commissioning me to do work... this is like if he came up and said "You're not allowed to use photoshop to make theme, you must use this other program, you must because I'm paying you."
Sure go ahead xD I got so tiered of repeating myself/retyoing stuff that it became a whole copy/paste thing in the end.
also adding to 10, or just alone, to do a search for a pack of theme A or so. Like want a zelda themed pack? search for one, want a starwars themed pack? search for one. There are so many packs floating around, that it is hghly likely that someone out there has already made the pack there looking for.
/blargs out typos, just got off work, not caring at the moment
For a while now, I've noticed that people don't seem to know how to properly request textures (or anything really).
This is intended as a guide for potential requesters to make the process painless for both sides.
Guide Proper:
So - You need a texture done. You post in this section hoping for the best, but sometimes good intentions aren't enough.
It should go without saying that most of these points are equally valid for any kind of request.
When posting a request thread, remember about the following points:
1) What?
This is the most important part that surprisingly many people miss. In short, give us a short description of what you need - Is it a mob texture, an item or a block? How should it look like and what does it do? The more info you give the better. Worst case scenario is that the artist will have to skip some impossible details.
2) How?
This is connected to the former. If you want a specific style or resolution for the textures, you also need to mention that. We aren't psychic. We won't figure out that the anime sword you wanted was supposed to be 64x and made in Doku style unless you tell us.
3) Why?
Again, background info - What do you need the textures for? Are you trying to recruit people for a mod? How big is it? Do you have anything to show code-wise?
If you want someone to work on your textures for a larger project, you should prove that it's worth their while. I'm not telling you to pay them, just have the common courtesy to show some of your work if you expect the same from them.
4) Be patient
Most of us have jobs, families or go to schools (Pick one). Keep in mind that you will not get your texture right away. Making textures takes time, which some people don't have much to spare. Furthermore, you also need to remember that there is no guarantee that anyone will take your request.
5) Be considerate
This is an international forum with people posting from various different time zones from across the globe. Therefore keep in mind that just because it's late afternoon where you live, doesn't mean that the other person hasn't just woken up, or is tired after work.
Furthermore, don't go around telling people you'll "Give more info on Skype". Nor should you make them send you and email, PM, fax message or a letter pigeon.
Just stop and think what you're doing - You want people to call you just to get the information that you should have provided in the opening post.
Not only is this a jerk move, it's just inconvenient, especially since no one is going to record this, so after the conversation is done, you're forcing the artist to remember everything you said instead of presenting it in a comfortable, written fashion.
Remember - You are the one who wants the texture. That's why it should be in your best interest to make your request as clear as possible. If you don't care enough to flesh out your request, neither will we.
Thanks Taiine!
6) Don't request texture packs
That's right, don't do that. They take way too much time for anyone to just make one for your map or server, and as such nobody will do these. And even if they do, it might take months.
If you really have to request a texture pack, do so in a "Looking for ideas" thread instead of starting a new one. It's a match made in heaven - You want a TP, they want ideas for one. This works both ways of course.
Thanks Alvoria!
7) Be reasonable
You finally managed to coax someone into making a texture pack for you. Great!
But after that - You're on your own.
Do not expect people to update and maintain your new texture pack. The job is done and the artist moves on. They already went out of their way to fulfill your request, so they have no obligation whatsoever towards you.
Thanks corner_g!
8) Make the post readable
Alright, you posted all the necessary info, but nobody ever responds? Maybe it's because you went overboard with writing an essay and created a bloated Wall of Text.
Writing as much info as possible is the most important thing, but if it's a long post, please remember to edit it properly. Add paragraphs, spaces and all that good stuff (Like what I'm trying to do now).
And for the love of Azura, don't add random emoticons or other such random crap. It's just causing us to eye-roll and sigh rather than making us curious.
9) Show some respect
Even if you are paying the artist to commission a texture, that still does not make you the boss of them.
Just because they're getting money doesn't give you a right to act like a jerk or demand that they do it EXACTLY the way you want it.
This means that You can't force them to use voice communication to receive info, or make them use a different graphical application than they are comfortable with.
The bottom line is that they are not bound by any means to finish your request/commission. So if annoy them too much, they're going to quit and make damn sure to warn others away.
10) Think it through
No, really - Do it.
Think about it - How would the texture pack be any different from all the normal ones out there?
You just played this new fantasy game and liked it, we get that. But don't instantly hit the forums asking people to make a texture pack for it. Making one especially to look like game A or B would be just wasted effort.
11) Do some research
You'd be surprised how many times certain things were requested, or even done. Case in point - There are numerous Zelda themed texture packs, so just use the search bar before you post.
A word from blue_dragon360:
And now a word from our sponsor, in response to requesting texture packs:
Disclaimer:
I am perfectly aware that, as with all guides on this page, those who should read it the most, will not.
But at least I have a clear conscience now.
If i missed anything, be sure to tell me.
On a side note - whatever happened to the consolidated request thread? Did it get buried?
...But that's just my opinion.
My DeviantART, requests welcome.
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Retired StaffShame really.
Good rant/guide though. Hopefully someone will see it and think about what they're posting or requesting.
May I also make a suggestion? Every now and again, I see a thread by a would-be pack creator asking for suggestions. Wouldn't it be great if people who wanted to request packs posted in these threads where their requests/ideas were desired... or vice-versa.
Shame indeed, i really liked having all those requests in one place
Aaah yes, I forgot about that, thanks
...But that's just my opinion.
My DeviantART, requests welcome.
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Retired StaffI have someone currently wanting to pay me to make them a few textures... or so I think. But they seem to INSIST on talking and giving the info over mumble rather than typing it out like I'd request due to well, we can't seem to be on at the same time due to work.
Perhaps add something reguarding this as well? It seems out right ridicules to say 'no info will be given here, only over voice chat'. when he could have had his stuff -done by now- if he wasn't being so darn picky. Even if your paying -we- are the ones who are going to make the textures and if you don't want to comply with how we want the info given to us... ie. I rather it be typed up so all the details are there for the reading and over view, then to be told over voice chat and have details forgotten or mis-heard or a risk of them saying one thing then turning around going 'I never said that'...
D'aaaaw ^^
I kinda thought that was implied, but you're right - It's better to spell it out. *Gets to it*
Personally - Whenever someone asks me for my Skype login i just outright refuse.
...But that's just my opinion.
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Retired StaffAnother thing that bugs me is that, a lot of these requests either start with crap or end with crap. When I say crap, in this case I mean all of this "raining bacon -
Nice job on the thread!
"And with that, POW! I'm gone." ---Lord Crump
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Retired StaffThere is nothing that you can't say over voice chat that you can't say in a PRIVATE Pm. As is we haven't even been on at the same time to send these messages back and forth, and he expects me to fiddle around and wait for him to come on? I have a job you know, I'll be damned if I'm missing work, or staying up late just so he can tell me what he could have told me ages ago in text.
Also suggest changing the topic title to something like: How to properly request textures
Otherwise it looks like another basic request topic.
Is it approved?
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1688519-looking-for-experienced-texture-artists/
So it's not just me then. I was under the impression that Texture Discussion suffered greatly while i was away - There's a lot less activity than before, and the requests have gotten poorer.
Ugh, same here. Did some nice textures for the guy, but I had to literally tear the information out of his throat. In the end i just said "F***k it" and quit.
I've noticed that those who put up application forms with some unnecessary info are usually a clear sign of danger to be avoided.
Ahhh, excellent point again
My word, yes! I think the motivation is to appear humorous, but... I just don't know how it could ever be funny. I'll probably add it, but I agree that this is a forum wide issue rather than section specific.
Thanks
Good
Who knows how many job offers I've turned down because they looked like a nightmare in the making
That was my original intent, but I figured that this title would bring more attention from the people it's aimed at. I suppose I can change it...
It's... better, yes. But it's still missing some stuff IMHO. For one thing - There's absolutely no reason why people shouldn't show off their futuristic textures, as they still show someone's skill, for example:
Picture A proves that I can do a tolerable texture as much as Picture B does.
What you probably should do is just put up a list of textures you need ASAP and just ask people to do these instead of applying like that.
This post is starting to get bloated like an Unclean One
...But that's just my opinion.
My DeviantART, requests welcome.
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Retired StaffAt least descriptions of the textures you want. I understand wanting to keep the mod a secret, but you can describe the "look" you want for a block for the artists without giving away what they're for in-mod.
Remember: "A metal barrel filled with a green liquid" might be toxic waste... or a St. Patty's day keg. It all depends on what label you put on it afterwards.
Oh dear
Yeah, kinda what i was trying to communicate. And I forgot to mention the secrecy thanks
Right, with mods obscurity works against you. You need to mention specific features that you are going to add precisely to make people want to play it. I'm not saying you need to add everything straight away, but you probably should mention some planned mechanics.
...But that's just my opinion.
My DeviantART, requests welcome.
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Retired StaffI'm not too sure about this one. I mean, i wholeheartedly agree, of course, but is it really prevalent enough to mention?
...But that's just my opinion.
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Retired StaffYeah rude sucker. Sorry, still not making this deal over voice chat.. you're requesting, and in the end commissioning me to do work... this is like if he came up and said "You're not allowed to use photoshop to make theme, you must use this other program, you must because I'm paying you."
It's just nonsense.
There's every reason to ask not to. This may sound selfish, but we wrote the application stating we weren't interested basically in futuristic textures. It's a simple request, and I made sure to add if they can make a small image in the style we are looking for. I don't want to have a Texture Artist who is amazing at what we don't need but bad at what we do need if you understand.
Wow, that is just... Wow. Alright, i'm adding it.
...But that's just my opinion.
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Retired StaffOh yeah, updated with something that just sprang to my mind
...But that's just my opinion.
My DeviantART, requests welcome.
B14 - My Texture Pack!
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Retired Staffalso adding to 10, or just alone, to do a search for a pack of theme A or so. Like want a zelda themed pack? search for one, want a starwars themed pack? search for one. There are so many packs floating around, that it is hghly likely that someone out there has already made the pack there looking for.
/blargs out typos, just got off work, not caring at the moment