Minecraft Forums

Quote from Kahr

Thanks to everyone who posted their support. I haven't made any final decisions yet.

I would also like to thank cpw for his measured responses. My post was obviously made in frustration and I appreciate his willingness to keep things from getting out of hand.


I wasn't aware of Grum's statement regarding distribution of modified class files. You'd think an announcement of that magnitude would be a little more prominent than a few tweets, but that's Mojang's professionalism for you. I can see how that puts you in a difficult position and it helps knowing you didn't make this change on a whim.

Still, in my defense, and please take this as constructive criticism, you really could have handled this better. A request is not a requirement, and the best response to Grum is -- well the BEST response is "Sure, give us a proper API and we'll get right on that". But barring that, at the very least you could have waited until you had a more fully-featured patching system in place before springing this on everyone.

Telling people "Sure you can modify base classes, just not any of these: *insert list of every base class anyone cares about*" comes across as glib and insulting. Forge has a spotty reputation as it is, one that goes well beyond one particular mod, and you didn't do yourself any favors here.

I also apologize for missing your PM last year. No slight intended at all. I either missed it entirely in the deluge of PMs I get, or I saw it, put it aside because it was a complex question and simply forgot about it. I rely on decompilation in my own debugging, so I can fully sympathize with your frustration when it isn't working.

I'm willing to work with you on possible compatibility between MCPatcher and forge, but I do insist on maintaining my independence. I have this weekend slated for the backlog of bug reports and remaining 1.6 issues, but I will PM you once I catch up.

Well,thank you for your reply.
Firstly, a request from Mojang, really should be considered an expectation of delivering results.

The new launcher was sort of (not that I'm claiming responsibility) in response to "we need to be able to control how minecraft runs", which is a prerequirement for any runtime monkey patching.

Note one of it's key capabilities is being able to direct other things to run, not just "vanilla", directly from configuration.

As to timing, well, I promised to myself that as soon as no base class edits were needed, NONE would be distributed, and I try to keep my promises. I made public this intention about 6-7 months ago, when I first figured out how I could monkey patch Minecraft at runtime. This is NOT new news. I have tweet about it repeatedly as pieces of tech falled into place. Sadly, time and resources meant I couldn't complete the "sophisticated" system to my satisfaction, so the "crappy diffs" are the fallback position, but I intended to keep my word.

On "changing classes", we do have a couple of systems we're working out with sp614x, and "don't change these classes" isn't actually mandatory- if you can patch in what fml/forge needs, there's a simple flag that stops the "crash and burn" behaviour and tries to soldier on (sp614x is already using it in optifine, though we have already come up with better ideas).

Finally, editing the minecraft jar is simply a no-no for us, because again, Mojang is gonna start sig checking that thing. It took me a while to convince them not to straight out in 1.6. You can prepend any "modifications" even to base classes, to the classpath right from the launcher, so changing the actual jar should never be considered a necessary step (if you're worried about signature violations, Mojang has code at github.com/Mojang/LegacyLauncher that will step around signature violation checks in normal Java).

I'm certain you could create a "modded.jar" file, and the json to go with it, from mcpatcher very easily (and probably install that version into the launcher while you're at it ).

Anyway, this is of course, your choice. I'm happy to work with you to try and figure out how mcpatcher and forge can coexist in the future, just as I'm working with sp614x. I suggest following me on twitter (minecraftcpw) if you don't want to be blindsided by these things in the future. Also, if you have any questions, just ping me on twitter, PM or IRC ([email protected]), if you want to talk further, I'm always happy to engage and solve problems..

Quote from Kahr

...snip...
I'm willing to work with you on possible compatibility between MCPatcher and forge, but I do insist on maintaining my independence. I have this weekend slated for the backlog of bug reports and remaining 1.6 issues, but I will PM you once I catch up.

I would expect nothing less than complete independence from anything forge, except maybe inside a 'forge compatibility module'.

Quote from Kahr

Still, in my defense, and please take this as constructive criticism, you really could have handled this better. A request is not a requirement, and the best response to Grum is -- well the BEST response is "Sure, give us a proper API and we'll get right on that". But barring that, at the very least you could have waited until you had a more fully-featured patching system in place before springing this on everyone.

I don't really agree that 'We will stop violating your ToU if you give us an alternative' is the 'best' response; don't forget that Forge was already in violation of Minecraft's ToU, regardless of what Grum may or may not have said. Too often I see people in this community trying to greedily increase the ante when they are already at a legal, technical, or even financial disadvantage. This nearsighted, spiteful approach is characteristic of young boys, and while Minecraft's fans and modders certainly trend towards that demographic, I think the more mature and intelligent members such as you should do your best to avoid getting caught up in it despite its pervasiveness. That's just my opinion, though, and you're entitled to keep yours now that you know the whole story.

As such, I really appreciate your levelheadedness in following up on this. MCPatcher along with Painterly Pack was part of my very first experience with Minecraft and now that I have a better context to understand its significance (and technical underpinnings) I'm delighted to revisit it and relieved to see that you have not totally flipped I really hope the ASM/Javassist conflicts can be resolved; maintainability, compatibility, and independence sometimes seem like one of those 'You can only pick 2' scenarios, but there is always hope.

Quote from Calcifire3691

the point he was making was that cpw said that grum directly requested that cpw remove base class edits from forge, grum then said on twitter that it was half true, implying that he didn't directly ask.

I have to say, cpw's behavior has been getting on my nerves a bit the past few weeks, everytime anyone brings up the launcher or base class edits, he says that "you're doing it wrong", someone made a video on how to allow base class edits to work? "you're doing it wrong", "hey dinnerbone, if you follow that video, you're doing it wrong", in direwolf's video "hey dire, can you do a video on forge and tell everyone else that they're doing it wrong?"

apparently it's now up to him whether or not someone is programming correctly or not, and if you do it in a way he personally disapproves of "they're doing it wrong", no cpw, they're not doing it wrong, theyre doing it in the way they see as appropriate, there is a difference between not being optimal, and being wrong.

It all depends on your definition of 'wrong', doesn't it? Obviously it's just his opinion, and if you're interested then you can follow up and find out, if you're not then you can just ignore him. Would you get this upset if I were to tell you, "If you're writing your mod in Java and not Scala, you're doing it wrong"? People tease me about it and I tease them right back. I think cpw doesn't see himself as an authority the way you do. I do understand where you're coming from, though - I had a similar issue with Slowpoke, where he just wanted to share his opinions about balance but to me, the figurehead of FTB giving me those opinions was like a mandate from some government organization. You just have to keep in mind that these are regular people. Not gods, not even hollywood celebrities - just shy nerds with their own opinions and personalities, enjoying their hobby.

Quote from darchangel89

Ive been reading the past few pages here and I am extremely confused. Are you all saying that MCpatcher and forge arent currently compatible? Can I not use MCpatcher to install mods anymore, in 1.6.2? Cuz Ive been trying to and when I click on "test minecraft" it just loads an unmodded default version of the game every time

That's correct. They are going to do their best but because Forge is changing to use a patch-based system similar to MCPatcher, it's hard to work out how to get the patches to apply in the right order without messing each other up.