Glass is actually a really pressure resistant material, so that we use glass in order to build the transparent panes of bathyscaphes (a submarine meant to explore the deep Oceans (like the Ocean pits)). Maybe it is not the best material that could be broken, especially if you have 1 cubic meter of glass.
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Sorry for double-posting (if it is actually a double post), but I just received a notification from Minecraft forums telling me 4HeadTiger had replied to my comment here at 5:13 AM.
I can't seem to be able to see it (that's why it seems to be a double-post to me). Have you posted anything?
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Glass is actually a really pressure resistant material, so that we use glass in order to build the transparent panes of bathyscaphes (a submarine meant to explore the deep Oceans (like the Ocean pits)). Maybe it is not the best material that could be broken, especially if you have 1 cubic meter of glass.
The bathyscapes used Plexiglas instead of actual glass. Normal glass can break quite quickly under tension in certain directions. Large aquaria usually use curved and very thick glass, since that can withstand the pressure far better. So minecraft glass panes should break easily under pressure, but glass blocks shouldn't (because they are thick enough to withstand the pressure).
Sure, but I read in a scientific newspaper that a new sub was invented, and was built with this pattern: a glass cylinder with, at each end, glass spheres. This pattern was designed to have the best resistance regarding pressure in the pits.
Of course, there was also an iron structure meant to carry all the instruments for the exploration, but the thing that protected the humans was the glass panes (although they were very thick compared to a normal glass pane). If I recall well, they were something like 10 cm thick, something like this, or maybe a bit more...
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
... Wait... my other comment.... Wait... wtf where did it go?
I gave a reasonably detailed breakdown of glass and it isn't here anymore...
Basically, silica glass (as a generalization for glass made from sand) has a very regular crystalline (regular tetrahedral to be precise IIRC) structure. While this makes it extremely resistant to uniform force, it is extremely weak against things like shearing forces and bending moments. This means that if you apply enough force to bend or shear a piece of glass more than the tiniest amount, the glass will break, with failures propagating throughout the entire material (aka, why glass "shatters" into "millions of pieces" rather than "bending in half").
Additionally, a block of glass is not actually 1m³ of glass. 1m³ of silica glass weighs about 2500kg, compared to sand; 1000-1500kg. Remove impurities from the sand and you would be lucky to have 600kg, 1/4 of a block, of glass. Additionally, 1 block of glass becomes roughly two and a half panes of glass no more than 5-10cm thick? This is all before we address the infeasibility of actually creating a transparent 1m³ block of glass in the first place (aka, it would be opaque, if it didn't simply shatter into pieces while cooling).
Of course, glass can also be extremely strong, you just have to use it right. Curves are incredibly strong, with exceptional abilities to distribute load evenly (remember, glass is super good at dealing with uniform force, and even distribution = no bending and no localized shearing = no breaking). We can also use different materials, or add other substances to the glass, such as polymers and acrylates (see plexiglass). We can also laminate the glass, which allows us to produce thick panes of glass while avoiding the problems which emerge with non-uniform expansion and contraction as the glass cools and sets (and gives us all the other advantages of lamination as well).
However, since recognizing curves and structural integrity is expensive as hell, I will just add something like "reinforced glass" which will not break as easily.
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I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
A lot of other mods add also a kind a reinforced glass, although it might not be the true recipe for reinforced glass.
How will you deal with that?
And, if you actually implement a system to extract energy from fluid flow, will it be convertible into the other energy systems (such as IC2's EUs, BC's MJ...)?
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
A lot of other mods add also a kind a reinforced glass, although it might not be the true recipe for reinforced glass.
How will you deal with that?
And, if you actually implement a system to extract energy from fluid flow, will it be convertible into the other energy systems (such as IC2's EUs, BC's MJ...)?
1. Hmmm, interesting question. Probably it will just be glass with slime balls and lapis or something to reinforce and laminate it. Currently, you can make the windows endure by making them thicker (geometric increase, so at the moment the max depths are roughly 1 block = 10m, 2 blocks = 30m, 3 blocks = 90m). It kind of seems trivial, and I'm wondering whether I should even disable the breaking of glass and simply dedicate the feature to rupturing thin dirt walls and so on. Hmmmmm.
2. I would probably go for MJs or something... Maybe EU's... haven't really thought about power generation yet, since all those mods ~do work just fine without needing water to power them~.
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I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
1. Hmmm, interesting question. Probably it will just be glass with slime balls and lapis or something to reinforce and laminate it. Currently, you can make the windows endure by making them thicker (geometric increase, so at the moment the max depths are roughly 1 block = 10m, 2 blocks = 30m, 3 blocks = 90m). It kind of seems trivial, and I'm wondering whether I should even disable the breaking of glass and simply dedicate the feature to rupturing thin dirt walls and so on. Hmmmmm.
Since you said that a glass block is too voluminous for the amount/weight of sand you input, it would be simpler to first add a way to combine two glass blocks. I don't know, maybe you would have to smelt the two in order to get rid of a lot of impurities, then combine them in the crafting table...
But that would be strange: you combine two pieces of glass at 900°C on a wooden crafting table? Isn't it burning at that point? And wouldn't your hands also burn because of the heat?
........
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Since you said that a glass block is too voluminous for the amount/weight of sand you input, it would be simpler to first add a way to combine two glass blocks. I don't know, maybe you would have to smelt the two in order to get rid of a lot of impurities, then combine them in the crafting table...
But that would be strange: you combine two pieces of glass at 900°C on a wooden crafting table? Isn't it burning at that point? And wouldn't your hands also burn because of the heat?
........
Yeah, wood and paper usually burn at anywhere from 400-800° degrees, and you can suffer burns from anything upwards of about 60-70°C. But, stone also weighs about 2 tonnes per block and you don't see Steve having any trouble carting around a few stacks of the stuff.
If I do anything, it will probably be something like 6 glass + 2 lapis + 1 slimeball = 3 toughened glass blocks or something. I'd rather go for higher end things like IC2 reinforced glass, but this level of progression is well beyond Vanilla MC. The problem is then that I'm left with something that is either trivial or way too expensive, leaving us with something closer to a pain in the ass than an interesting feature.
More thought needed :|
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I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
Also, would it be possible to adapt the form of the glass in order to strengthen it? I mean, since Cuchaz can detect there is a sail somewhere in a ship (in Ships mod) and even count the number of sails (so he can differentiate the structures), could it be possible to compare the shape of the glass things you build with a kind of parabola (or anything spherical, I don't know what shape resists the best) in order to have a better resistance based on how much similarities you have between the two shapes?
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
I probably could... I could at least try... Hmmm... My fear is computational cost, and also precision. Determining that there are X connected wool blocks, and estimating the thrust from the sail, is one thing (I assume that shape itself doesn't matter, really just size and surface area, perhaps some tests to see if sails block each other off, etc). Calculating load paths (and internal forces) in a low precision three dimensional dynamic block grid WHILE being left with something that behaves in a predictable and robust way? That's something else entirely
As for the shape, it depends on how much of the curve is exposed to the water, and how large the window is. Generally, and at least mathematically, a perfect sphere will work the best in these situations before accommodating other factors.
I might look into it when everything else is done... perhaps I will (try to) make a block physics mod after this... who knows
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I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
I would say: you try to determine the center of the hemisphere, according to that center, you know that every block in the average ray should support the same pressure (I think that's why spheres are so good with supporting high pressures, and also other geometrical aspects), then you just have to compute what the difference compared to a perfect Minecrafty sphere. Then, the more the sphere is distorted, the less the glass away from their normal position will be resistant, so the less pressure they can withstand. So, your algorithm breaking glass will work as it works now, but you would add a method to your algorithm that determines pressure. I'm not sure it would take so much efforts from the computer.
It would be quite simple:
if 'average ray of the sphere'>='distance to the center'{;
'max resistance' = 'max resistance' + 'average ray of the sphere'/'distance to the center' * 'coefficient that I do not know and that would determine extra glass resistance thanks to the sphere';
else;
'max resistance' = 'max resistance' + 'distance to the center'/'average ray of the sphere' * 'coefficient';
}
This means that if they are equal, the division will return 1, then the block receives the best amount of resistance.
The if is here to prevent the division from returning a number over 1, so that it will always diminish the coefficient, unless the two are equal.
If you have a better way to prevent this from happening without any if structure, do it. That's the only way I could do this.
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Mmm, I think a system needs to be far more advanced than that to function predictably and reliably.
The first issue is reliably identifying a sphere. Without KNOWING the shape of the glass beforehand, we have to test every block, and then test their positions relative to some undefined structure and some large number of other blocks that have already been tested. By the time we have something that can recognize actual curves... well... let's just say that it would've been cheaper to use regular old statics calculations instead.
That is; treat eery block as a node, then apply force to the nodes touching the water, then distribute all of the forces through all of the connected nodes (determine normalized direction vector from one node to the next -> calculate net force at each node). From here, it's as simple as testing if the force at the node exceeds the strength of the material. We can also accommodate for "anchor" blocks, but that bit should be pretty straight forward.
I'm not saying I can't or won't do it, just that I don't think it should be a part of THIS mod
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I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
I can understand that.
I will think about it in order to get other ideas. Though, I cannot propose many things due to my incapacity to mod Minecraft (I don't know the API).
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
The first issue is reliably identifying a sphere. Without KNOWING the shape of the glass beforehand, we have to test every block, and then test their positions relative to some undefined structure and some large number of other blocks that have already been tested. By the time we have something that can recognize actual curves... well... let's just say that it would've been cheaper to use regular old statics calculations instead.
Simple: you look at them from above and you consider it is a sphere as soon as it has a roundish/diskish shape.
I mean, then, you look at it from any side (take the north for example) and if it has also a roundish/hemi-roundish shape, then it is at least a hemisphere. Then, by calculating what's the middle of both faces, you get where the middle of the sphere is. Then, you can calculate the resistances.
You'll ask me how to look from above/any direction. I remind you Cuchaz has done it in his Ships gui. I I recall well, the helm will give you a view from above, and the Ship block will give a view from a side.
Then, a little comparison algorithm, and you're done. Well, that's how I imagine it.
Then, every time a glass block is actualized, you could get for example all its neighbors actualized so the sphere would always be actualized as soon as a block breaks.
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Actually determining if a shape is a sphere or not is not the issue, neither is "getting a view from above"; it's the characteristics of when/why to detect a sphere that is. I suppose this logic could be run every time a glass block is placed; but really it'd be better on resources to use Forge multipart and have some kind of control block (a custom block that acts as a controller).... but...
....what's this talk about glass blocks forming a sphere have to do with the finite water mod, sorry? I read this whole page and the one before and I have no idea what this discussion is about
In fact, as 4HeadTiger is implementing glass resistance to water pressure as well as finite water sources, we talked about glass shapes that were more resistant.
Maybe we should run a logic for every glass block placed: if the block is placed next to another block, and there is water somewhere over it, then we can run the logic. Or we could count the number of blocks placed in an area, and if it becomes high enough, then we could run the logic to know if there is a sphere somewhere in that spot.
I don't know, I'll try to find other ideas.
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Sure, but I'm gonna explain why I suggest it now:
-1st: I just had the idea about how to make it
-2nd: I have actually followed another mod growing up from being not released to being released with some core features, people do not suggest anything any more (well, not true, they just don't suggest as much, and I'm sure that if the mod hadn't been released, people would have continued letting their imagination work, since they had no other toy to play around with).
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A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =) Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Maybe we should wait for a working that has the basic features and does not lag you to hell before implementing in depth structural analysis.
^ this. Also lol at "structural analysis", good one
This mod will be open source Martititi, so even if 4HeadTiger doesn't do it/remember this feature, you can always fork it and do it. But there's enough on his plate already with this, I'm sure.
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
I can't seem to be able to see it (that's why it seems to be a double-post to me). Have you posted anything?
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
The bathyscapes used Plexiglas instead of actual glass. Normal glass can break quite quickly under tension in certain directions. Large aquaria usually use curved and very thick glass, since that can withstand the pressure far better. So minecraft glass panes should break easily under pressure, but glass blocks shouldn't (because they are thick enough to withstand the pressure).
Of course, there was also an iron structure meant to carry all the instruments for the exploration, but the thing that protected the humans was the glass panes (although they were very thick compared to a normal glass pane). If I recall well, they were something like 10 cm thick, something like this, or maybe a bit more...
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
... Wait... my other comment.... Wait... wtf where did it go?
I gave a reasonably detailed breakdown of glass and it isn't here anymore...
Basically, silica glass (as a generalization for glass made from sand) has a very regular crystalline (regular tetrahedral to be precise IIRC) structure. While this makes it extremely resistant to uniform force, it is extremely weak against things like shearing forces and bending moments. This means that if you apply enough force to bend or shear a piece of glass more than the tiniest amount, the glass will break, with failures propagating throughout the entire material (aka, why glass "shatters" into "millions of pieces" rather than "bending in half").
Additionally, a block of glass is not actually 1m³ of glass. 1m³ of silica glass weighs about 2500kg, compared to sand; 1000-1500kg. Remove impurities from the sand and you would be lucky to have 600kg, 1/4 of a block, of glass. Additionally, 1 block of glass becomes roughly two and a half panes of glass no more than 5-10cm thick? This is all before we address the infeasibility of actually creating a transparent 1m³ block of glass in the first place (aka, it would be opaque, if it didn't simply shatter into pieces while cooling).
Of course, glass can also be extremely strong, you just have to use it right. Curves are incredibly strong, with exceptional abilities to distribute load evenly (remember, glass is super good at dealing with uniform force, and even distribution = no bending and no localized shearing = no breaking). We can also use different materials, or add other substances to the glass, such as polymers and acrylates (see plexiglass). We can also laminate the glass, which allows us to produce thick panes of glass while avoiding the problems which emerge with non-uniform expansion and contraction as the glass cools and sets (and gives us all the other advantages of lamination as well).
However, since recognizing curves and structural integrity is expensive as hell, I will just add something like "reinforced glass" which will not break as easily.
I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
How will you deal with that?
And, if you actually implement a system to extract energy from fluid flow, will it be convertible into the other energy systems (such as IC2's EUs, BC's MJ...)?
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
1. Hmmm, interesting question. Probably it will just be glass with slime balls and lapis or something to reinforce and laminate it. Currently, you can make the windows endure by making them thicker (geometric increase, so at the moment the max depths are roughly 1 block = 10m, 2 blocks = 30m, 3 blocks = 90m). It kind of seems trivial, and I'm wondering whether I should even disable the breaking of glass and simply dedicate the feature to rupturing thin dirt walls and so on. Hmmmmm.
2. I would probably go for MJs or something... Maybe EU's... haven't really thought about power generation yet, since all those mods ~do work just fine without needing water to power them~.
I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
Since you said that a glass block is too voluminous for the amount/weight of sand you input, it would be simpler to first add a way to combine two glass blocks. I don't know, maybe you would have to smelt the two in order to get rid of a lot of impurities, then combine them in the crafting table...
But that would be strange: you combine two pieces of glass at 900°C on a wooden crafting table? Isn't it burning at that point? And wouldn't your hands also burn because of the heat?
........
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Yeah, wood and paper usually burn at anywhere from 400-800° degrees, and you can suffer burns from anything upwards of about 60-70°C. But, stone also weighs about 2 tonnes per block and you don't see Steve having any trouble carting around a few stacks of the stuff.
If I do anything, it will probably be something like 6 glass + 2 lapis + 1 slimeball = 3 toughened glass blocks or something. I'd rather go for higher end things like IC2 reinforced glass, but this level of progression is well beyond Vanilla MC. The problem is then that I'm left with something that is either trivial or way too expensive, leaving us with something closer to a pain in the ass than an interesting feature.
More thought needed :|
I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
As for the shape, it depends on how much of the curve is exposed to the water, and how large the window is. Generally, and at least mathematically, a perfect sphere will work the best in these situations before accommodating other factors.
I might look into it when everything else is done... perhaps I will (try to) make a block physics mod after this... who knows
I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
It would be quite simple:
if 'average ray of the sphere'>='distance to the center'{;
'max resistance' = 'max resistance' + 'average ray of the sphere'/'distance to the center' * 'coefficient that I do not know and that would determine extra glass resistance thanks to the sphere';
else;
'max resistance' = 'max resistance' + 'distance to the center'/'average ray of the sphere' * 'coefficient';
}
This means that if they are equal, the division will return 1, then the block receives the best amount of resistance.
The if is here to prevent the division from returning a number over 1, so that it will always diminish the coefficient, unless the two are equal.
If you have a better way to prevent this from happening without any if structure, do it. That's the only way I could do this.
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
Mmm, I think a system needs to be far more advanced than that to function predictably and reliably.
The first issue is reliably identifying a sphere. Without KNOWING the shape of the glass beforehand, we have to test every block, and then test their positions relative to some undefined structure and some large number of other blocks that have already been tested. By the time we have something that can recognize actual curves... well... let's just say that it would've been cheaper to use regular old statics calculations instead.
That is; treat eery block as a node, then apply force to the nodes touching the water, then distribute all of the forces through all of the connected nodes (determine normalized direction vector from one node to the next -> calculate net force at each node). From here, it's as simple as testing if the force at the node exceeds the strength of the material. We can also accommodate for "anchor" blocks, but that bit should be pretty straight forward.
I'm not saying I can't or won't do it, just that I don't think it should be a part of THIS mod
I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, bless her Invisible Pinkness.
I will think about it in order to get other ideas. Though, I cannot propose many things due to my incapacity to mod Minecraft (I don't know the API).
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
I thought about it, and I think I could have an answer:
Simple: you look at them from above and you consider it is a sphere as soon as it has a roundish/diskish shape.
I mean, then, you look at it from any side (take the north for example) and if it has also a roundish/hemi-roundish shape, then it is at least a hemisphere. Then, by calculating what's the middle of both faces, you get where the middle of the sphere is. Then, you can calculate the resistances.
You'll ask me how to look from above/any direction. I remind you Cuchaz has done it in his Ships gui. I I recall well, the helm will give you a view from above, and the Ship block will give a view from a side.
Then, a little comparison algorithm, and you're done. Well, that's how I imagine it.
Then, every time a glass block is actualized, you could get for example all its neighbors actualized so the sphere would always be actualized as soon as a block breaks.
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
....what's this talk about glass blocks forming a sphere have to do with the finite water mod, sorry? I read this whole page and the one before and I have no idea what this discussion is about
Maybe we should run a logic for every glass block placed: if the block is placed next to another block, and there is water somewhere over it, then we can run the logic. Or we could count the number of blocks placed in an area, and if it becomes high enough, then we could run the logic to know if there is a sphere somewhere in that spot.
I don't know, I'll try to find other ideas.
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
-1st: I just had the idea about how to make it
-2nd: I have actually followed another mod growing up from being not released to being released with some core features, people do not suggest anything any more (well, not true, they just don't suggest as much, and I'm sure that if the mod hadn't been released, people would have continued letting their imagination work, since they had no other toy to play around with).
A Rocket Science tester and engineer. Well, at least when it will be released. =)
I'm French so English is not my native language. Please correct me when I make a mistake and don't worry for me, it will be even better. Thanks in advance! =)
Current number of corrected posts/things: 7
^ this. Also lol at "structural analysis", good one
This mod will be open source Martititi, so even if 4HeadTiger doesn't do it/remember this feature, you can always fork it and do it. But there's enough on his plate already with this, I'm sure.