I think I may have confused people a bit by calling this TC 4. In reality I was aiming more for TC 3.1.
TC1 -> TC2 -> TC3 were basically three different mods with thematic similarities.
TC4 (or TC3.1) would just be TC3 with the dents knocked out and the scratches polished away. Assuming I go ahead with this I will try my best to preserve peoples worlds so it might even be possible to continue using your current saves. No promises though.
Either way, this thread is serving its purpose. I'm getting peoples opinions and thoughts which will allow me to decide what I will do and even if something needs doing.
So that's where the question mark come in. Having TC3.1 in the title would probably not generate as much attention.
If you have 'itchy fingers' as you say, I think it's a good indication that actually going through with this is the right thing. You know what needs doing to improve it, I think it's best to do it before adding more stuff to the current version. If you wait by improving it, you could be making more work for yourself as you might have to re-code the stuff you added since then.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's better to ask a stupid question than not knowing the answer.
I think I may have confused people a bit by calling this TC 4. In reality I was aiming more for TC 3.1.
TC1 -> TC2 -> TC3 were basically three different mods with thematic similarities.
TC4 (or TC3.1) would just be TC3 with the dents knocked out and the scratches polished away. Assuming I go ahead with this I will try my best to preserve peoples worlds so it might even be possible to continue using your current saves. No promises though.
Either way, this thread is serving its purpose. I'm getting peoples opinions and thoughts which will allow me to decide what I will do and even if something needs doing.
I was going to say at first (although I've not read every single post in here, due to lengths...yeah... but anyway)
Seems like a majority of people are against having some sort of spell casting system, removal of aura nodes, etc.
To me, the spellcasting sounds, really, really nice.
I love the RPG aspect. Minecraft IS an RPG, contrary to popular belief.
It even has a level/experience bar for crying out loud!
Anyway, the aura nodes, while they add some sort of purpose to living in certain places, they are a pain in the ass to build up.
Spell casting, I think instead of delving into your own sort of spell casting system, why not partner up with Mithion for his Ars Magicka and see if you two can work out some sort of duo with the wands/spells etc?
If i'm being honest, I like Thaumcraft the way it is, magi-punk and all. Although I do like the idea of having a basic wand that casts spells, because spells are awesome. Something I saw on the TC3 idea thread had something to do with dreams, having a "Dream World" with crazy properties would be interesting, but something would have to be done about getting to the Dream World, like the hungrier you are the more chance you have. Also, you shouldn't be able to keep everything you get in the dream world, you should have something to store things from the dream world in, like a "Dreamers Pocket", that has a very small storage (4 spaces?), and is kind of a mid-tier item. All in all, I like Thaumcraft 3 as it is and don't think all the ideas should be implemented.
Every new iteration of Thaumcraft has me a little worried. Thaumcraft 1 was good, what was wrong with it? Not a lot, but it was blown out of the water by Thaumcraft 2. Ugh, Azanor is changing thaumcraft again? I dont want to lose all the neat thaumcraft 2 stuff, it cant be better and for what? Golems? How useful can they be?... quite useful as it turned out. As Azanor has shown me time and time again, he knows what he is doing and every version is better than the last. I am much less worried these days. Keep up the good work, I dont doubt that I will be blown away yet again.
I think that the way the mod is is perfect. A huge improvment over v2.
Reducing the number of aspects I think would be a shame as it addes some flavor to each item. It also added I bit of discovery with each
item you aquire.
I love the idea of the auras its one of the things that makes this mod stand out the most from the countless number of other magic mods.
Removing them would take a step towards just being just another magic mod.
The reseach system is great as it is.
I think the mana and casting systems have been done as far as there going to be. So adding or removing things to add these would for me be a huge step backwards for this mod.
In summary, I understand the issues you raise but fixng and changing thing in the way you have stated above would remove almost all of the things that make this mod stand head and shoulders above all other magic mods.
I hope this helps, I do not wish to add thaumcraft to my mod obituary.
Research - I support anything that makes it more interesting and less lottery, although at this point I'm out of my own ideas. This one's in your hands.
Aspects - I have to say, I'm going to miss having a massive periodic table of magic, but 40+ elements was pretty overwhelming. Something like 12-15 sounds nice. My personal favorite "periodic table of magic" is Earth, Fire, Air, Water, Metal, Electricity (or just plain Energy), Nature, Blood, Light, Shadow, Spirit, and Time. Maybe with a Mana/Magic/Quintessence element to deal with magic itself.
Nodes - Love it. Encourages exploration and multiple bases, and hopefully stops these aura-deleting bugs. Stuff like blocks and mobs dropping essences is cool too, there's some possibility for experimentation there if the player gets ahold of storage devices before they get goggles. They'd be vacuuming up essentia without being able to see what it is.
Mana - Hate it. Not the concept of storing and moving magic power, mind you, just the flavor of it. I much prefer the idea of using a separate physical object (say, those crystals you love so much hint hint) to act as a battery. I've always thought of your Thaumaturge as more of an artificer than a wizard, and pulling magic out of your body doesn't feel right. Still, keep in mind that this doesn't stop you from storing magic in the player character at all, it just changes the flavor. For example, you could dig up a cache of crystals, and then craft and attach sockets to your armor, and socket the crystals to create a suit of armor that can store magic energies for transportation, crafting, or magic. This also mirrors the RPG style of character improvement, since you build yourself up over time, but with the added depth of being able to trade/lose that stuff or create different "sets" for different purposes.
Spellcasting - I'm not a huge fan of the "waggle wand, receive firebolt" style of spellcasting, especially in a game like this that's practically begging for magic that involves location and construction. The runes and symbols of TC1 and TC2 were stylish as hell, and I'd absolutely love it if "casting" was an expansion of that idea, combining bits and pieces to really feel like you're doing something arcane and mysterious. Something like arranging magic items or runes in a circle, powering them with an aspect (say, a charged crystal in the middle), and activating it all with your wand. The combination of runes, their placement, the amount of aspect used, and the level of your wand would decide the effect. I'm thinking of "bigger" spells in general, for example the Wand of Fire wouldn't really be a thing anymore, but you could create a Rune Circle of Flamestrike that could be triggered to damage and ignite stuff in an area around it. "Triggered" could mean by waving your wand at it from a safe distance, or by attaching it to a "detect enemy" rune, or anything else you can imagine.
Spellcasting Part Deux, or "Well I wanted to cast spells from my hands, how do I do that now, smart guy?" - Portable magic would still be possible. Say you use some ink to replicate that rune circle on a sheet of paper, creating a Scroll of Flamestrike. Now you can cast Flamestrike wherever you like, as long as you're carrying enough Fire aspect to fuel it and a wand to trigger it. There could still be some RPG-style progression worked in here through the wand, perhaps crafting a bigger and better one allows you to cast more powerful or complex spell scrolls, or maybe spells automatically scale with the caster's wand. Newly spawned Steve should be able to accidentally blow himself up with a scroll he found in a dungeon, but probably shouldn't be able to cast a Scroll of Summon Wither that he stole from a master thaumaturge's tower. At least not without some serious research first. I don't know if the scroll should be consumed or not; If scrolls are cheap, they'd be consumed in the process and be more of a mass-produced commodity than a valuable item. Scrolls could be traded and sold by experienced thaumaturges, perhaps pre-charged and ready to use. If expensive (say we replace the ink with gold filigree and powdered crystals/gems), then you could spend time and resources building up a "library" of handy spells, which would feel more like your current idea of spells being a more internalized thing, your scrolls would be valuable things and could be stolen by other players, there would be more attachment to them as a progression thing.
Yep, just me again, still blithering about my love of circles made of shiny things.
I think that the research sistem could use a little rework, as for some people it is very entertaining (I enjoyed it a lot) but for other people is very frustrating (my girlfriend didnt like it at all xD) so I think that a change would be good.
In terms of aspects, yeah, there are A LOT of them and an important amount is almost unused, so it would be better to have less aspects that can be more useful
I dont care much about "spellcasting" or mana, I think I'll like to see that implemented to the mod as a nice way to give variety to the existing wands.
I would love to see if the nodes weren't nodes exactly but pylons made of crystal or something.. not like monoliths but floating pylons with the color of the aspect such as green for earth and red or orange for fire and they would have a glowy ripple effect or something I think that would be to cool.. and the phrase "We require more pylons" (SC) would echo in your head o.o. Be kinda cool just saying.
perhaps have the amount or type of essentia used effect the player and any pets they might have like Taint did but with out the whole out of control world eating self spawning purple goo problem ?
Here's my 2 cents...probably saying more than I should because I have a few IPAs under my belt ATM.
edit: (if you don't know what an IPA is then you are aren't of age).
1. I concur with reducing the number of aspects; 48 (47) is WAY too many to manage...very cool icons though..somebody put much work into them and that is to be commended...but, too many.
2. I concur with making the number of aspects in the 10(ish) range.....a dozen would be fine as well. You could always go with the ARS Magica RPG (this is what the basis of the mod is correct?) 'forms' of which there are 10 or your idea of the 4 elements + life, death, magic and nature (little iffy in that...nature = earth, water, air, +life???) are pretty solid, all cool but yes, reduce the number.
3. I concur with concept of keeping the "Arcane" feel and avoiding the "Techy" feel.....golems rock! You have an absolute winner here...stick with the theme. Magi-punk...you coined it...gotta keep it!
4. Eliminate nodes? Ack!..just spent 100 hours of RL time improving mine. Great concept overall but obvious game/lag limitations. Kind of goes with the concept of "ley lines" which has a strong mystic(al) foundation. Your "nodes" would be (for all intents and purposes) where "ley lines" intersect. I, personally like them but whatever works. Kinda goes with the concept that you can draw power (mana/vis) from the environment (more easily along ley lines/nodes) or from sympathetic magic...taking power from things (essences) that have already absorbed magic from the environment just by virtue of their existence (am I making sense?....probly not...one too many )
5. Magic/spell/Xp system: Here is where I go out on a limb.....I use both your mod and Mithion's mod, Ars Magica. I love them both and believe it or not they actually compliment each other. Mithion already has a spell and XP system but I thought his devices (some of them anyway) and explanaition of mana (and how you obtain/recharge it was kind of weak). You excel at the magi-punk/device/alchemical angle...why not join forces? You both have superior mods with great design concepts AND you are (loosely) based on the same system (am I wrong?). Mithion just put up a post today that he has been/is currently working on a Battletech(ish) mod......I may presume too much in that he may not have the time to devote to Ars Magica.....but the man has gotta sleep some time.
Here's the deal.....Keep the Ars Magica spell/Xp system and you flesh out the device/item/alchemical/essence/mana (ley line or node) side and I think you guys could have an epic winner.
sub: Both you and Mithion display pure genius in your respective mods. In this day and age of IT collaboration, just think of what you could possibly achieve together. I am personally a "do-it-myself" kind of guy and completely understand the tendency to be protective of ones own ideas, but...think of the possibilities. Hey, if Jobs and Woz could work together, I'm sure you guys could too.
6. Research - great idea. Similar concept to Ars Magica for researching "custom spells". Mithion just had a writing contest. He is taking the winning stories and breaking them up into journals that he is putting into his mod. The Journals will give clues as to how best to make certain custom spells. Full sets of journals aid in the actual process of spell creation, much like your essence synergy adds (I apologize that I forgot what they are called exactly but when you get bonuses for ignus when you have a nearby fire) to research. Yes, winning idea; 'engage the mind, avoid the grind'.
7. I have every faith that whatever you put out, it will be a fantastic product. And, having said that, WHATEVER you produce, there will be a small fraction who will want bigger and better and more and weirder things added to your mod. Follow your gut (or your heart)...it obviously hasn't failed you to this point. The only thing that I ask is that you seriously consider a collaborative effort with Mithion. You could change the MC world.
Very Respectfully,
Iz
edit: Just reread my post (probably should have attempted a proofread)...I apologize for using the terms essence and aspect interchangeably...but after over 37 years of gaming (and given my current state of sobriety) it all kinda runs together.
Spell casting?
I can see either going good or bad. Either way the only way to tell is to try.
Research?
I like it, but won't cry if it gets changed a bit. Its nice as it is and the only issue I have with it is I wish it was somewhat randomized. Once I learn something it is never hard to research it again in a new world, ect.
Aura?
This is something I would like to keep as it is. I understand if it needs to be changed somewhat for stability sake, but right now the aura is something more then just "something you find". To me the aura is part of the world itself. Its not a singular entity but rather part of a whole. I sometimes sit back and just watch my nodes do their work trying to balance out the crud I just put into the air. It hurts, it heals, it lives. One of my overall projects, even from TC 1, is to develop a massive core of power. A pulsing nerve of the world that is the height of manipulation and gathering magic. I can do this with the aura. I AM doing this with the aura.
Is it possible to have a nearby block be a "data dump" for the entity? Saving the needed data to the block's variables.
Okay, first and foremost, this is my favorite mod in FTB (and in general). Just wanted to put that out there.
-Spellcasting:
Anyways, the next thing I want to say is, do NOT use vanilla xp for a magic leveling system. It is unbalanced and already spread to thin via use by other mods. When I say unbalanced, there is simply a large gap between regular leveling and using a mass xp grinder. You could balance a magical leveling system based on casual grinding, but it would be broken in half by mob grinders. You could balance it to work with mob grinders, but then it would be incredibly difficult to level up your magic through normal combat. Mods like Soul Shards can make incredibly overpowered spawners, but even without them you can still make a mob grinder that is way more effective than regular combat at getting you xp. No mod should encourage someone standing in one spot for a long time waiting for the xp to build up high enough.
So yeah, you definitely shouldn't use vanilla xp. That said, I would suggest that you don't use any leveling system that directly involves resources that can be farmed, or otherwise automated. I would suggest that you use a research and/or feat based leveling system. An example of a feat would be touching the Enderdragon egg to unlock some new ability.
THAT said, I'm actually not a huge fan of a magic leveling system or traditional spellcasting. I also don't like the idea learning spells and then having a wand simply as a way to use them (even with additional quirks and bonuses based on what wand you are using). I'm also not a fan of you simply storing essentia within your person. Some sort of magical container that you carry with you to store essentia in would be cool though. You see, I like the idea that in the very core, you are simply human, and that you get your powers from the armor and tools that you make. If you die, you are simply Steve again, with nothing to make you superior to anybody else. You have no "inherent advantage" even if you can only gain access to that advantage through use of a wand.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of custom wands. I just don't like the idea of a wand that can cast a dozen different spells, or some way of storing all your spells within your person, or in some spellbook. Spell storing items, if implemented, should only be able to store a fairly small number of spells (even the maximum tier of said item). In other words, I don't like the idea of the player being a walking spellbook.
-Griefing:
Don't worry about it, man. A lot of the danger and fun would be lost if you tried to design things so they couldn't be used for griefing. Besides, some players play on PvP servers and enjoy such options. Don't ignore griefing entirely, but don't let it dictate what you make. I personally love dangerous magical research and side effects, and hope they are expanded upon.
-Aura Nodes:
I agree with the type of thinking of Korenn four posts above me. Aura nodes should be adjusted, not removed entirely. Korenn had some interesting ideas, and I'd like to suggest another: making aura nodes blocks, but only technically. They would be pretty much functionally identical to how they are now, but the aura glow would center around an invisible block, instead of being stored as an entity. The block would store the aura data, and perhaps there would be several versions for different node types and various energy levels. This way, if the node gets reset somehow, it will still be the same type and have approximately the same vis storage capacity. The key point still being that nodes are still a normally invisible force that can't be destroyed, and can't be interacted with in the way blocks normally are. I like the idea of nodes being a natural force working behind the scenes that can't simply be mined and placed somewhere else or put in a chest (even if it takes some super fancy tool to mine them). If nodes are simply turned into fancy blocks or crystals, then they won't feel like a force of nature anymore, they would just be some rare block. That said, new naturally occurring structures and aura hubs sound awesome! Obelisks for the win!
-Vis, in General:
I like the idea of vis as a sort of natural energy and magical fuel. I always saw essentia as a way to shape and harness the power of vis.
-Aspects and Research:
I personally love the variety of aspects and the fact that you have to hunt for certain ones. I suppose there are a lot, and some of them aren't used very often. The number could be reduced, but not lower than thirty I hope. Ten is way too few. As far as research goes, I totally agree, it could be made less of a lottery. I would suggest more hints, and that they occur earlier instead of halfway through the research. Multi-step research would be pretty cool as well. I don't really want it to be less difficult, just more intuitive. I also agree with the idea of separate research trees on different pages, so that way you don't have to wade through a bunch of research you weren't looking for at the time in order to get what you want.
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On an unrelated note, I'm glad we will get to keep most of our stuff. For a moment there, I was worried I would lose everything I've built and have to start from scratch. Your thread title is a little misleading, heh. Anyways, keep up the awesome work!
Wether TC4 will exist?
Nope.
TC3.1 will probably happen.
This thread isn't whether 3.1 will happen.
It WILL happen. Unless Aza just drops the whole idea right now.
What this thread is about is what people think about TC3.0 and what we like and what we want to change and our opinions on the ideas of what Azanor thought up.
Azanor, ive always seen you as one of the greatest mod makers ever. maybe even reaching the point where im calling you a game dev, but some of your new ideas completley abandon what i loved about TC2 and TC3, and what i stayed hours on end looking up on, talking about, and of course playing. When you said you may completely remove vis, my hard broke, this was the greatest thing about the mod, and it was amazing an unique and it was one of the things that i came running back for more for. I feel that nodes are a bit of a flawd system only because its no longer cool if you find one, its kinda like. 'Hey look, another ball of magic, woopdy freakin do' (not to say they aren't awesome they defiantly are), but maybe areas with very high vis have them as "some of the vis slipping threw to the dimension of sight"
And i love how many aspects there are now, maybe getting rid of a few wouldnt hurt, but it makes you really feel accomplished when you remember what a certain aspect is and where to find it. ill miss that...
But spell casting i say HECK TO THE YES! that was one of the reasons i thought about playing with ars magica, and want to see a thaumcraft spin on those things how cool right?
But the reason i didn't play with it was because of the Mana and leveling system and i thought that was SO MUCH MORE INFERIOR TO THAUMCRAFT. Thaumcraft has always been about using your mind and knowledge to get out of situations other then you physical standture. and that was so much cooler to me then getting a "plus ten mana..... great :/ "
This mod made me play minecraft again and if i dare say, my favorite game (yes thaumcraft is its own game now) ever!
Thank you for taking the time to read this and if you didnt get around to it, no sweat man.
But please rethink this, TC3 was just headed in the right direction in perfecting what TC2 wanted to achieve.
Stay squidy az!
Okay, first and foremost, this is my favorite mod in FTB (and in general). Just wanted to put that out there.
-Spellcasting:
Anyways, the next thing I want to say is, do NOT use vanilla xp for a magic leveling system. It is unbalanced and already spread to thin via use by other mods. When I say unbalanced, there is simply a large gap between regular leveling and using a mass xp grinder. You could balance a magical leveling system based on casual grinding, but it would be broken in half by mob grinders. You could balance it to work with mob grinders, but then it would be incredibly difficult to level up your magic through normal combat. Mods like Soul Shards can make incredibly overpowered spawners, but even without them you can still make a mob grinder that is way more effective than regular combat at getting you xp. No mod should encourage someone standing in one spot for a long time waiting for the xp to build up high enough.
So yeah, you definitely shouldn't use vanilla xp. That said, I would suggest that you don't use any leveling system that directly involves resources that can be farmed, or otherwise automated. I would suggest that you use a research and/or feat based leveling system. An example of a feat would be touching the Enderdragon egg to unlock some new ability.
THAT said, I'm actually not a huge fan of a magic leveling system or traditional spellcasting. I also don't like the idea learning spells and then having a wand simply as a way to use them (even with additional quirks and bonuses based on what wand you are using). I'm also not a fan of you simply storing essentia within your person. Some sort of magical container that you carry with you to store essentia in would be cool though. You see, I like the idea that in the very core, you are simply human, and that you get your powers from the armor and tools that you make. If you die, you are simply Steve again, with nothing to make you superior to anybody else. You have no "inherent advantage" even if you can only gain access to that advantage through use of a wand.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of custom wands. I just don't like the idea of a wand that can cast a dozen different spells, or some way of storing all your spells within your person, or in some spellbook. Spell storing items, if implemented, should only be able to store a fairly small number of spells (even the maximum tier of said item). In other words, I don't like the idea of the player being a walking spellbook.
-Griefing:
Don't worry about it, man. A lot of the danger and fun would be lost if you tried to design things so they couldn't be used for griefing. Besides, some players play on PvP servers and enjoy such options. Don't ignore griefing entirely, but don't let it dictate what you make. I personally love dangerous magical research and side effects, and hope they are expanded upon.
-Aura Nodes:
I agree with the type of thinking of Korenn four posts above me. Aura nodes should be adjusted, not removed entirely. Korenn had some interesting ideas, and I'd like to suggest another: making aura nodes blocks, but only technically. They would be pretty much functionally identical to how they are now, but the aura glow would center around an invisible block, instead of being stored as an entity. The block would store the aura data, and perhaps there would be several versions for different node types and various energy levels. This way, if the node gets reset somehow, it will still be the same type and have approximately the same vis storage capacity. The key point still being that nodes are still a normally invisible force that can't be destroyed, and can't be interacted with in the way blocks normally are. I like the idea of nodes being a natural force working behind the scenes that can't simply be mined and placed somewhere else or put in a chest (even if it takes some super fancy tool to mine them). If nodes are simply turned into fancy blocks or crystals, then they won't feel like a force of nature anymore, they would just be some rare block. That said, new naturally occurring structures and aura hubs sound awesome! Obelisks for the win!
-Vis, in General:
I like the idea of vis as a sort of natural energy and magical fuel. I always saw essentia as a way to shape and harness the power of vis.
-Aspects and Research:
I personally love the variety of aspects and the fact that you have to hunt for certain ones. I suppose there are a lot, and some of them aren't used very often. The number could be reduced, but not lower than thirty I hope. Ten is way too few. As far as research goes, I totally agree, it could be made less of a lottery. I would suggest more hints, and that they occur earlier instead of halfway through the research. Multi-step research would be pretty cool as well. I don't really want it to be less difficult, just more intuitive. I also agree with the idea of separate research trees on different pages, so that way you don't have to wade through a bunch of research you weren't looking for at the time in order to get what you want.
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On an unrelated note, I'm glad we will get to keep most of our stuff. For a moment there, I was worried I would lose everything I've built and have to start from scratch. Your thread title is a little misleading, heh. Anyways, keep up the awesome work!
This is very well said, az if you can take these words into consiteration
As somebody who recently started playing, just finished all the research, lost my own aura node and rebuilt it (still improving on it), and has put hours into the mod over the past few days... I'd say leave it untouched.
The aura system may not be stable, but that makes it more exciting. Being able to drag nodes this way and that, have dead zones, that is fun. To limit them, make them immobile, or make them a finite resource would be IMHO, boring. I want to be able to build my own node, nurture it, care for it, ensure it isn’t polluted by flux, and draw from its reservoir of magical energy (but not overdraw). To force me to travel across biomes for nodes just doesn’t seem as fun. Vis, the Aura, that is (in my interpretation) what makes up the elements, fire, water, air etc. Right now, when you draw from the aura, you are drawing from the energy that makes the world itself, and you can even manipulate that raw power to form a huge pool of energy to draw from. The nodes may make things lag, but I love them as they are.
The current number of aspects is fine. I just think we need more uses for them, and perhaps clearer hints. Part of research I enjoyed was the guessing. “Hrm, what could be in this? Is it this? No. Perhaps that? No. Wait… maybe… Eureka!” Could it be tedious? Sometimes, yes, but those rarer aspects keep you on your toes. To dumb it down and make it simpler… I just don’t like the idea. You are trying to control, manipulate, and bind the energies that make up the very universe to your will. Why on earth would that be simple? Perhaps a solution: aspects used little in the beginning should, with each tier, become more prevalent. Rather than just using the same 10 or so aspects the whole way through, you could add a scaling mechanism by making the (currently) barely used aspects more common in research for higher tiers. I had always thought that was your intention anyway.
Spellcasting is not something I see as desirable. More wands? Yes please! But the theme up to this point has been about making items to manipulate the aura. You have no ability to on your own. I’d like to see wands that can do different “spells,” but I don’t want to see everything simplified into just a few wands.
I guess this could be summarized as: I love Thaumcraft the way it is. To throw that away just to make it simpler saddens me, because it’s the intricacies of the system (discovering them, and then how to manipulate them) which makes it so much fun. All I want to see right now is expansion on what you’ve done. That flying carpet, the rod of 9 hells, upgrades for the arcane bore, expansion on golems, ways to store smaller amounts of essentia, etc.
Really mate, you’ve done good with what you’ve made. I love Thaumcraft (aura node problems and all). I think it’d be a crying shame to change it all so drastically when you still have so much potential.
So that's where the question mark come in. Having TC3.1 in the title would probably not generate as much attention.
If you have 'itchy fingers' as you say, I think it's a good indication that actually going through with this is the right thing. You know what needs doing to improve it, I think it's best to do it before adding more stuff to the current version. If you wait by improving it, you could be making more work for yourself as you might have to re-code the stuff you added since then.
It's better to ask a stupid question than not knowing the answer.
I was going to say at first (although I've not read every single post in here, due to lengths...yeah... but anyway)
Seems like a majority of people are against having some sort of spell casting system, removal of aura nodes, etc.
To me, the spellcasting sounds, really, really nice.
I love the RPG aspect. Minecraft IS an RPG, contrary to popular belief.
It even has a level/experience bar for crying out loud!
Anyway, the aura nodes, while they add some sort of purpose to living in certain places, they are a pain in the ass to build up.
Spell casting, I think instead of delving into your own sort of spell casting system, why not partner up with Mithion for his Ars Magicka and see if you two can work out some sort of duo with the wands/spells etc?
oh, and everything else that you change is fine with me, as soon as you keep golems.
Reducing the number of aspects I think would be a shame as it addes some flavor to each item. It also added I bit of discovery with each
item you aquire.
I love the idea of the auras its one of the things that makes this mod stand out the most from the countless number of other magic mods.
Removing them would take a step towards just being just another magic mod.
The reseach system is great as it is.
I think the mana and casting systems have been done as far as there going to be. So adding or removing things to add these would for me be a huge step backwards for this mod.
In summary, I understand the issues you raise but fixng and changing thing in the way you have stated above would remove almost all of the things that make this mod stand head and shoulders above all other magic mods.
I hope this helps, I do not wish to add thaumcraft to my mod obituary.
Thanks for Thaumcraft 3.
In terms of aspects, yeah, there are A LOT of them and an important amount is almost unused, so it would be better to have less aspects that can be more useful
I dont care much about "spellcasting" or mana, I think I'll like to see that implemented to the mod as a nice way to give variety to the existing wands.
My honest opinion
Here's my 2 cents...probably saying more than I should because I have a few IPAs under my belt ATM.
edit: (if you don't know what an IPA is then you are aren't of age).
1. I concur with reducing the number of aspects; 48 (47) is WAY too many to manage...very cool icons though..somebody put much work into them and that is to be commended...but, too many.
2. I concur with making the number of aspects in the 10(ish) range.....a dozen would be fine as well. You could always go with the ARS Magica RPG (this is what the basis of the mod is correct?) 'forms' of which there are 10 or your idea of the 4 elements + life, death, magic and nature (little iffy in that...nature = earth, water, air, +life???) are pretty solid, all cool but yes, reduce the number.
3. I concur with concept of keeping the "Arcane" feel and avoiding the "Techy" feel.....golems rock! You have an absolute winner here...stick with the theme. Magi-punk...you coined it...gotta keep it!
4. Eliminate nodes? Ack!..just spent 100 hours of RL time improving mine. Great concept overall but obvious game/lag limitations. Kind of goes with the concept of "ley lines" which has a strong mystic(al) foundation. Your "nodes" would be (for all intents and purposes) where "ley lines" intersect. I, personally like them but whatever works. Kinda goes with the concept that you can draw power (mana/vis) from the environment (more easily along ley lines/nodes) or from sympathetic magic...taking power from things (essences) that have already absorbed magic from the environment just by virtue of their existence (am I making sense?....probly not...one too many )
5. Magic/spell/Xp system: Here is where I go out on a limb.....I use both your mod and Mithion's mod, Ars Magica. I love them both and believe it or not they actually compliment each other. Mithion already has a spell and XP system but I thought his devices (some of them anyway) and explanaition of mana (and how you obtain/recharge it was kind of weak). You excel at the magi-punk/device/alchemical angle...why not join forces? You both have superior mods with great design concepts AND you are (loosely) based on the same system (am I wrong?). Mithion just put up a post today that he has been/is currently working on a Battletech(ish) mod......I may presume too much in that he may not have the time to devote to Ars Magica.....but the man has gotta sleep some time.
Here's the deal.....Keep the Ars Magica spell/Xp system and you flesh out the device/item/alchemical/essence/mana (ley line or node) side and I think you guys could have an epic winner.
sub: Both you and Mithion display pure genius in your respective mods. In this day and age of IT collaboration, just think of what you could possibly achieve together. I am personally a "do-it-myself" kind of guy and completely understand the tendency to be protective of ones own ideas, but...think of the possibilities. Hey, if Jobs and Woz could work together, I'm sure you guys could too.
6. Research - great idea. Similar concept to Ars Magica for researching "custom spells". Mithion just had a writing contest. He is taking the winning stories and breaking them up into journals that he is putting into his mod. The Journals will give clues as to how best to make certain custom spells. Full sets of journals aid in the actual process of spell creation, much like your essence synergy adds (I apologize that I forgot what they are called exactly but when you get bonuses for ignus when you have a nearby fire) to research. Yes, winning idea; 'engage the mind, avoid the grind'.
7. I have every faith that whatever you put out, it will be a fantastic product. And, having said that, WHATEVER you produce, there will be a small fraction who will want bigger and better and more and weirder things added to your mod. Follow your gut (or your heart)...it obviously hasn't failed you to this point. The only thing that I ask is that you seriously consider a collaborative effort with Mithion. You could change the MC world.
Very Respectfully,
Iz
edit: Just reread my post (probably should have attempted a proofread)...I apologize for using the terms essence and aspect interchangeably...but after over 37 years of gaming (and given my current state of sobriety) it all kinda runs together.
Game on!
Iz
I can see either going good or bad. Either way the only way to tell is to try.
Research?
I like it, but won't cry if it gets changed a bit. Its nice as it is and the only issue I have with it is I wish it was somewhat randomized. Once I learn something it is never hard to research it again in a new world, ect.
Aura?
This is something I would like to keep as it is. I understand if it needs to be changed somewhat for stability sake, but right now the aura is something more then just "something you find". To me the aura is part of the world itself. Its not a singular entity but rather part of a whole. I sometimes sit back and just watch my nodes do their work trying to balance out the crud I just put into the air. It hurts, it heals, it lives. One of my overall projects, even from TC 1, is to develop a massive core of power. A pulsing nerve of the world that is the height of manipulation and gathering magic. I can do this with the aura. I AM doing this with the aura.
Is it possible to have a nearby block be a "data dump" for the entity? Saving the needed data to the block's variables.
-Spellcasting:
Anyways, the next thing I want to say is, do NOT use vanilla xp for a magic leveling system. It is unbalanced and already spread to thin via use by other mods. When I say unbalanced, there is simply a large gap between regular leveling and using a mass xp grinder. You could balance a magical leveling system based on casual grinding, but it would be broken in half by mob grinders. You could balance it to work with mob grinders, but then it would be incredibly difficult to level up your magic through normal combat. Mods like Soul Shards can make incredibly overpowered spawners, but even without them you can still make a mob grinder that is way more effective than regular combat at getting you xp. No mod should encourage someone standing in one spot for a long time waiting for the xp to build up high enough.
So yeah, you definitely shouldn't use vanilla xp. That said, I would suggest that you don't use any leveling system that directly involves resources that can be farmed, or otherwise automated. I would suggest that you use a research and/or feat based leveling system. An example of a feat would be touching the Enderdragon egg to unlock some new ability.
THAT said, I'm actually not a huge fan of a magic leveling system or traditional spellcasting. I also don't like the idea learning spells and then having a wand simply as a way to use them (even with additional quirks and bonuses based on what wand you are using). I'm also not a fan of you simply storing essentia within your person. Some sort of magical container that you carry with you to store essentia in would be cool though. You see, I like the idea that in the very core, you are simply human, and that you get your powers from the armor and tools that you make. If you die, you are simply Steve again, with nothing to make you superior to anybody else. You have no "inherent advantage" even if you can only gain access to that advantage through use of a wand.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of custom wands. I just don't like the idea of a wand that can cast a dozen different spells, or some way of storing all your spells within your person, or in some spellbook. Spell storing items, if implemented, should only be able to store a fairly small number of spells (even the maximum tier of said item). In other words, I don't like the idea of the player being a walking spellbook.
-Griefing:
Don't worry about it, man. A lot of the danger and fun would be lost if you tried to design things so they couldn't be used for griefing. Besides, some players play on PvP servers and enjoy such options. Don't ignore griefing entirely, but don't let it dictate what you make. I personally love dangerous magical research and side effects, and hope they are expanded upon.
-Aura Nodes:
I agree with the type of thinking of Korenn four posts above me. Aura nodes should be adjusted, not removed entirely. Korenn had some interesting ideas, and I'd like to suggest another: making aura nodes blocks, but only technically. They would be pretty much functionally identical to how they are now, but the aura glow would center around an invisible block, instead of being stored as an entity. The block would store the aura data, and perhaps there would be several versions for different node types and various energy levels. This way, if the node gets reset somehow, it will still be the same type and have approximately the same vis storage capacity. The key point still being that nodes are still a normally invisible force that can't be destroyed, and can't be interacted with in the way blocks normally are. I like the idea of nodes being a natural force working behind the scenes that can't simply be mined and placed somewhere else or put in a chest (even if it takes some super fancy tool to mine them). If nodes are simply turned into fancy blocks or crystals, then they won't feel like a force of nature anymore, they would just be some rare block. That said, new naturally occurring structures and aura hubs sound awesome! Obelisks for the win!
-Vis, in General:
I like the idea of vis as a sort of natural energy and magical fuel. I always saw essentia as a way to shape and harness the power of vis.
-Aspects and Research:
I personally love the variety of aspects and the fact that you have to hunt for certain ones. I suppose there are a lot, and some of them aren't used very often. The number could be reduced, but not lower than thirty I hope. Ten is way too few. As far as research goes, I totally agree, it could be made less of a lottery. I would suggest more hints, and that they occur earlier instead of halfway through the research. Multi-step research would be pretty cool as well. I don't really want it to be less difficult, just more intuitive. I also agree with the idea of separate research trees on different pages, so that way you don't have to wade through a bunch of research you weren't looking for at the time in order to get what you want.
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On an unrelated note, I'm glad we will get to keep most of our stuff. For a moment there, I was worried I would lose everything I've built and have to start from scratch. Your thread title is a little misleading, heh. Anyways, keep up the awesome work!
Verdict of what?
Weather Thaumcraft 4 is in the near future.
Wether TC4 will exist?
Nope.
TC3.1 will probably happen.
This thread isn't whether 3.1 will happen.
It WILL happen. Unless Aza just drops the whole idea right now.
What this thread is about is what people think about TC3.0 and what we like and what we want to change and our opinions on the ideas of what Azanor thought up.
This thread is for brainstorming pretty much.
And i love how many aspects there are now, maybe getting rid of a few wouldnt hurt, but it makes you really feel accomplished when you remember what a certain aspect is and where to find it. ill miss that...
But spell casting i say HECK TO THE YES! that was one of the reasons i thought about playing with ars magica, and want to see a thaumcraft spin on those things how cool right?
But the reason i didn't play with it was because of the Mana and leveling system and i thought that was SO MUCH MORE INFERIOR TO THAUMCRAFT. Thaumcraft has always been about using your mind and knowledge to get out of situations other then you physical standture. and that was so much cooler to me then getting a "plus ten mana..... great :/ "
This mod made me play minecraft again and if i dare say, my favorite game (yes thaumcraft is its own game now) ever!
Thank you for taking the time to read this and if you didnt get around to it, no sweat man.
But please rethink this, TC3 was just headed in the right direction in perfecting what TC2 wanted to achieve.
Stay squidy az!
This is very well said, az if you can take these words into consiteration
The aura system may not be stable, but that makes it more exciting. Being able to drag nodes this way and that, have dead zones, that is fun. To limit them, make them immobile, or make them a finite resource would be IMHO, boring. I want to be able to build my own node, nurture it, care for it, ensure it isn’t polluted by flux, and draw from its reservoir of magical energy (but not overdraw). To force me to travel across biomes for nodes just doesn’t seem as fun. Vis, the Aura, that is (in my interpretation) what makes up the elements, fire, water, air etc. Right now, when you draw from the aura, you are drawing from the energy that makes the world itself, and you can even manipulate that raw power to form a huge pool of energy to draw from. The nodes may make things lag, but I love them as they are.
The current number of aspects is fine. I just think we need more uses for them, and perhaps clearer hints. Part of research I enjoyed was the guessing. “Hrm, what could be in this? Is it this? No. Perhaps that? No. Wait… maybe… Eureka!” Could it be tedious? Sometimes, yes, but those rarer aspects keep you on your toes. To dumb it down and make it simpler… I just don’t like the idea. You are trying to control, manipulate, and bind the energies that make up the very universe to your will. Why on earth would that be simple? Perhaps a solution: aspects used little in the beginning should, with each tier, become more prevalent. Rather than just using the same 10 or so aspects the whole way through, you could add a scaling mechanism by making the (currently) barely used aspects more common in research for higher tiers. I had always thought that was your intention anyway.
Spellcasting is not something I see as desirable. More wands? Yes please! But the theme up to this point has been about making items to manipulate the aura. You have no ability to on your own. I’d like to see wands that can do different “spells,” but I don’t want to see everything simplified into just a few wands.
I guess this could be summarized as: I love Thaumcraft the way it is. To throw that away just to make it simpler saddens me, because it’s the intricacies of the system (discovering them, and then how to manipulate them) which makes it so much fun. All I want to see right now is expansion on what you’ve done. That flying carpet, the rod of 9 hells, upgrades for the arcane bore, expansion on golems, ways to store smaller amounts of essentia, etc.
Really mate, you’ve done good with what you’ve made. I love Thaumcraft (aura node problems and all). I think it’d be a crying shame to change it all so drastically when you still have so much potential.