Buildcraft pipes are pretty lackluster, especially considering RP tubes are vastly superior in pretty much every way conceivable.
Not really. They're just more powerful. More powerful does not equal better. One of the things I liked about SpaceToad was that he was actually concerned with game balance.
For example, I viewed leaks in pipes, and managing them, as an aspect of that.
Quote from NightKev »
As well, she wants to add functionality to her mod that would benefit from a pipe-like system, but doesn't want to force people into using BC, so making something similar seems pretty damn logical to me.
Again...we were all working together, and on a surface level, were trying to collaborate to create a standard for modding Minecraft. It may be logical (maybe) to undermine those efforts for purely selfish reasons, but that is far from nice, and you're going to make enemies doing it.
Functionality largely duplicated in Frames (which were promoted as such), along with BTW's Platforms.
Again, look: if you can name one really original feature in RP in the past year, I'll be impressed.
Eloraam herself argues that ideas are cheap. Well...if they are so cheap, why not work on your own?
Again, if I were a developer considering joining the Forge, all this would be extremely worrisome for me, and would represent a big con. I know it still does if I ever considered rejoining it.
Ingame computer emulator (and the Computercraft dev himself said he was inspired by Eloraam on those, though that mod ended up releasing first.) The not-entirely-obvious subtext there is, guess who is frequently seen doing all kinds of crazy stuff with ComputerCraft on Direwolf vids?
Frames are, of course, potentially far more overpowered than BC quarries or BTW platforms combined, and are one of the things I strongly dislike in Redpower. But again, totally different implementations (ie moving tileEntities) and they do require a fair bit of work and computer logic to really get ridiculous. They really aren't comparable to BC quarries, especially in the one-block-wonder sense, though Platforms is certainly fair (and I definately prefer yours, there)
I've personally never actually used them outside of making a retracting bridge when they first came out, for whatever that counts for.
Guess I'm getting way off topic now, so I should probably go back to Dark Souls ^ ^
The one valid argument against Forge is lack of compatibility with other mods that alter core Minecraft classes that Forge also alters. The reason I call this valid is because not every mod idea envisioned can get around this. Me and another modder I know have both come across this problem, and we both came up with our own solutions. His was to unfortunately call that his mod will not work with Forge. For me, I tried to "have my cake and eat it" by coding my mod too know if the class I need was altered by me or not. Then load differently according to the check. Granted this solution only works one way, my mod knowing and not others. In theory however, there is a way to alter classes on runtime using some fancy Bytecode Java tricks but I for one am not going that far for a mod.
Frames are, of course, potentially far more overpowered than BC quarries or BTW platforms combined, and are one of the things I strongly dislike in Redpower. But again, totally different implementations (ie moving tileEntities) and they do require a fair bit of work and computer logic to really get ridiculous.
Yup, I agree, and you'll notice I never even made a statement against them when Frames came out.
However, what's up with the visual similarities? I think those are pretty self-evident, and I think asking 'why?' is a fairly natural question to follow.
If I'm the perpetrator in all this, doesn't that contrast rather sharply with that viewpoint?
The one valid argument against Forge is lack of compatibility with other mods that alter core Minecraft classes that Forge also alters. The reason I call this valid is because not every mod idea envisioned can get around this. Me and another modder I know have both come across this problem, and we both came up with our own solutions. His was to unfortunately call that his mod will not work with Forge. For me, I tried to "have my cake and eat it" by coding my mod too know if the class I need was altered by me or not. Then load differently according to the check. Granted this solution only works one way, my mod knowing and not others. In theory however, there is a way to alter classes on runtime using some fancy Bytecode Java tricks but I for one am not going that far for a mod.
What exactly are you trying to do? Depending on the situation and if you did want to use Forge you could always make a pull request. And yes bytecode manipulation is the other option, however that is quite tricky
What exactly are you trying to do? Depending on the situation and if you did want to use Forge you could always make a pull request. And yes bytecode manipulation is the other option, however that is quite tricky
Like I said, not every mod can get around altering classes. My mod blocks Achievements from popping up. Forge doesn't have hooks for the achievement gui, so I made my own. Adding this as part of Forge is pointless just to accommodate me.
Like I said, not every mod can get around altering classes. My mod blocks Achievements from popping up. Forge doesn't have hooks for the achievement gui, so I made my own. Adding this as part of Forge is pointless just to accommodate me.
But are you sure yours is the only mod that needs it?
No doubt Redpower-based quarries are much more powerful than Buildcraft-based ones, but you have to actually put work into creating a quarry machine, including the logic for operating it (using either lots of logic tiles or Forth programming) and the massive amount of materials required to invest into making such a construction, whereas with Buildcraft all you do is mine a few diamonds and hey-presto you have infinite resources.
Yup, I agree, and you'll notice I never even made a statement against them when Frames came out.
However, what's up with the visual similarities? I think those are pretty self-evident, and I think asking 'why?' is a fairly natural question to follow.
Well, it's fairly obvious that you inspired them, but I would hope as someone whose work she had respect for as a friend all that, not, like... in a malicious sense. But I guess there is really no arguing that.
@seph86 I'm sure other modders would like to modify how achievements work (I know IC2 already adds their own, at least).
The difference being is that I alter the GUI side of things, as far as I know there isn't any demand for it. Red Power, IC2 and a few other mods add their own achievements, true. But so far no mod does anything to the GUI side itself. Therefore adding such a hook to Forge will almost never get used.
And I disagree Nerd-boy, this is still related. I am unintentionally suggesting a feature to Forge, while I admit it would make my life easier. That doesn't mean it should be added. My mod has no real demand for it, so I say that I do not want to include an veeeery specific thing to Forge.
And I disagree Nerd-boy, this is still related. I am unintentionally suggesting a feature to Forge, while I admit it would make my life easier. That doesn't mean it should be added. My mod has no real demand for it, so I say that I do not want to include an veeeery specific thing to Forge.
The reason for the PM was because I was going to suggest an alternate solution that should work without the need to edit base classes
This whole discussion about BTW and Forge will be mute eventually, for i may have heard it whispered in the wind that a mod called Better Than Ocelots is being written, a clone of BTW with completely original code and textures using forge, i dislike paranoid trolls so ocasionally it's fun to play them at their own game.
I'm going to assume that the topic of Forge Opinions is still being discussed here and I wanted to put my own user-pespective in as I simply find the API to be invaluable.
Forge mods allow:
a) The ability for mods to not edit base files thus
- allowing more mods to work together
- allowing more mods to be installed easier by just dragging into the /mods directory
- allowing more mods to be upgraded easier by just replacing the file(s) in the /mods directory instead of starting over with a clean .jar and reinstalling all the mods from scratch
The ability for mods to use each other's raw materials with the ore dictionary;
- allowing all of a given ore type to be collected and stacked/smelted uniformly
c) The ability to take advantage more technical resources
- allowing use of the 4096 block ids so that more mods can be installed
- allowing unlimited sprite indices so that more mods can be installed
Of course, there are always cons. Personally, I don't find these to be too daunting, but others might:
a) Finding the proper version of Forge can be a bit of a hassle
- Forge is always improving itself and thus has multiple interim releases and their Recommended release updates often
- the external Forge website tries to be clear, but for the past several days, it's been down;
- mod authors don't always list the specific Forge version they used and rely instead on saying "the Recommendedversion".
- mod authors must stay in the loop with Forge to be sure that their mods still work with the current Recommendedrelease
- mod authors often forget update the Mod's previous releases to indicate which specific Forge version to use.
Typically, as with all base edit mods, when it updates, users must start over from scratch with a clean .jar
- this is a time-consuming process, especially given the sheer number of mods Forge users can now install
- some users will "cheat" and try and overwrite the existing installation which causes any number of issues that cause users to fill up the forums with unqualified support issues
- the more base edits a mod has, the more often is the chance it will need to update
I realise that most of the cons listed are not with Forge itself, but rather with the community that is using it. Forge is still relatively new so I expect many of these cons to be better addressed as we all become more familiar with it. However, I do believe that the cons above are the reason that so many folks complain when a mod says it requires or will be requiring Forge.
Not really. They're just more powerful. More powerful does not equal better. One of the things I liked about SpaceToad was that he was actually concerned with game balance.
For example, I viewed leaks in pipes, and managing them, as an aspect of that.
Again...we were all working together, and on a surface level, were trying to collaborate to create a standard for modding Minecraft. It may be logical (maybe) to undermine those efforts for purely selfish reasons, but that is far from nice, and you're going to make enemies doing it.
<waves>
Functionality largely duplicated in Frames (which were promoted as such), along with BTW's Platforms.
Again, look: if you can name one really original feature in RP in the past year, I'll be impressed.
Eloraam herself argues that ideas are cheap. Well...if they are so cheap, why not work on your own?
Again, if I were a developer considering joining the Forge, all this would be extremely worrisome for me, and would represent a big con. I know it still does if I ever considered rejoining it.
Frames are, of course, potentially far more overpowered than BC quarries or BTW platforms combined, and are one of the things I strongly dislike in Redpower. But again, totally different implementations (ie moving tileEntities) and they do require a fair bit of work and computer logic to really get ridiculous. They really aren't comparable to BC quarries, especially in the one-block-wonder sense, though Platforms is certainly fair (and I definately prefer yours, there)
I've personally never actually used them outside of making a retracting bridge when they first came out, for whatever that counts for.
Guess I'm getting way off topic now, so I should probably go back to Dark Souls ^ ^
The one valid argument against Forge is lack of compatibility with other mods that alter core Minecraft classes that Forge also alters. The reason I call this valid is because not every mod idea envisioned can get around this. Me and another modder I know have both come across this problem, and we both came up with our own solutions. His was to unfortunately call that his mod will not work with Forge. For me, I tried to "have my cake and eat it" by coding my mod too know if the class I need was altered by me or not. Then load differently according to the check. Granted this solution only works one way, my mod knowing and not others. In theory however, there is a way to alter classes on runtime using some fancy Bytecode Java tricks but I for one am not going that far for a mod.
Yup, I agree, and you'll notice I never even made a statement against them when Frames came out.
However, what's up with the visual similarities? I think those are pretty self-evident, and I think asking 'why?' is a fairly natural question to follow.
If I'm the perpetrator in all this, doesn't that contrast rather sharply with that viewpoint?
What exactly are you trying to do? Depending on the situation and if you did want to use Forge you could always make a pull request. And yes bytecode manipulation is the other option, however that is quite tricky
Like I said, not every mod can get around altering classes. My mod blocks Achievements from popping up. Forge doesn't have hooks for the achievement gui, so I made my own. Adding this as part of Forge is pointless just to accommodate me.
But are you sure yours is the only mod that needs it?
Edit: added note about resources
Certain.
Well, it's fairly obvious that you inspired them, but I would hope as someone whose work she had respect for as a friend all that, not, like... in a malicious sense. But I guess there is really no arguing that.
The difference being is that I alter the GUI side of things, as far as I know there isn't any demand for it. Red Power, IC2 and a few other mods add their own achievements, true. But so far no mod does anything to the GUI side itself. Therefore adding such a hook to Forge will almost never get used.
And I disagree Nerd-boy, this is still related. I am unintentionally suggesting a feature to Forge, while I admit it would make my life easier. That doesn't mean it should be added. My mod has no real demand for it, so I say that I do not want to include an veeeery specific thing to Forge.
The reason for the PM was because I was going to suggest an alternate solution that should work without the need to edit base classes
-,-
MISSION SUCCESS
Don't feel like a fool, Sometimes having an outsiders perspective/fresh set of eyes on a problem can really do wonders.
Forge mods allow:
a) The ability for mods to not edit base files thus
The ability for mods to use each other's raw materials with the ore dictionary;
c) The ability to take advantage more technical resources
Of course, there are always cons. Personally, I don't find these to be too daunting, but others might:
a) Finding the proper version of Forge can be a bit of a hassle
Typically, as with all base edit mods, when it updates, users must start over from scratch with a clean .jar
I realise that most of the cons listed are not with Forge itself, but rather with the community that is using it. Forge is still relatively new so I expect many of these cons to be better addressed as we all become more familiar with it. However, I do believe that the cons above are the reason that so many folks complain when a mod says it requires or will be requiring Forge.