I am continually attacked for my decision to leave Forge man, and Eloraam also continues to pour gasoline onto that fire through blatantly imitating features in my mod, up to and including a week ago.
I was content with simply not being complicit in that behavior and moving on, but it has been perpetuated through her actions and those of others.
I see no reason why I should keep silent on it given that, especially when a question specifically related to it is posed. Someone asked why I don't use Forge even to this day, and I responded. Seems rather straightforward to me. I see nothing "childish" about that.
Again, I would just ignore what people say about you leaving the Forge project, ignore what other mod authors are doing and focus on making what you want to make. All the drama and bickering doesn't help anyone. Maybe childish is the wrong word, but personal grievances really shouldn't be public consumption. It really only attracts negative attention. You seem like a really smart guy and should rise above it and do the things you want to do.
Might I suggest that this discussion stop, now. Initially I was going to voice some opinions about the situation about forge, Eloraam, Better Then Wolves mod etc. But this is starting to tread into dangerous territory. Simply because it's starting to get personal.
The whole thing going on is unfortunate, but this is what life is made of. However continuing on will inevitably escalate and some people will suffer. So, I ask everybody to just simply drop it and return to discuss about Forge.
I'll even kick things off (and forgive me if I'm repeating myself, I haven't read the whole topic) Agreed Forge is becoming "bloated" however there is not much option in this. Adding features to an API that not all mods will use will lead to complexity, users will have to download other APIs, more incompatibilities, more problems, etc etc. So ultimately it comes down to a choice: Make Forge and other mods harder to use and work well together but keep Forge simple. Or make Forge bloated with features that not every mod uses and make life slightly easier for users and modders alike?
I might also add that when the minecraft official API is released, a lot of these features of Forge will be stripped out I suspect. Time will tell though I suppose.
On topic, I do think Forge is getting a bit bloated as well. But on the other hand, you can't really argue with the convenience it provides from an end-user standpoint. Is that worth stepping on community modder's toes and causing irritation here? I don't really know, but I do know how the FML thing came about, so just for discussions sake, I'll throw it up -
Not quoting ofc, but this is a summary of what I heard about it. Slowpoke makes the FTB modpack - So he and some of the main Forge contributors that are also involved went to #risucraft to ask him if it was OK to include it for that map. He was a jerk and told them no very rudely, despite the fact that most modpacks don't even bother to request permission to use ML. Given that, they decided to say hell with it and just make their own, rather than beg him, and I can't really blame them for that, since the alternative would be to just scrap their modpack - and I don't really think, despite how awesome Risu has been to the community, that he should be deciding what kinds of mods people can make. But I guess the moral I'm trying to get at is, they aren't modding gods or anything, just some random kids that aren't on some kind of high moral plane or anything, especially since the "big 3" have all quit the project - so maybe it shouldn't be judged as harshly as people seem to want to do.
I'll even kick things off (and forgive me if I'm repeating myself, I haven't read the whole topic) Agreed Forge is becoming "bloated" however there is not much option in this.
I still don't understand this argument. Is it not better having an API making many base class edits so multiple mods can do "special" stuff then having each mod try to make it's own edits and thus killing comparability? Even if many of the hooks are not used on each individuals mod setup, they will defiantly be used on peoples set up on a whole
Are you seriously saying because Eloraam put in a horizontal windmill, which is nothing like the windmills you have in your mod, you felt she was copying you?
Dude...seriously, check the dimensions of her Wind Mill blades. They're almost exact duplicates of mine. That simply does not happen by accident.
Similarly, check out the textures for the Igniter. You seriously want to argue that was accidental?
This isn't about her having wind mills or blocks that produce fire in her mod. She can go nuts with that. It's about intentionally instigating drama through copying exact details like that with the obvious intent of stirring up trouble.
I suspect you have an overly simplistic view of the situation where you think my response last night happened out of nowhere in some kind of bubble. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I actually would have been happy to simply move on from this a long time ago if your mod author of choice wasn't intent on continuing to provoke.
You yourself seem upset that "everyone has Wind Mills now". Now, imagine that you put a year and a half of work into something, to have someone start pulling those kinds of shenanigans just to get under your skin.
From your posts, I sincerely doubt you'd be less upset than I am. It actually looks a lot like you would be more so.
Are you seriously saying because Eloraam put in a horizontal windmill, which is nothing like the windmills you have in your mod, you felt she was copying you? Would any mod that had windmills be infringing on your "IP" of.. well, windmills, an idea you clearly came with all on your own? The entire minecraft modding community should say "Hey, guess none of us can use windmills, because FC has them in his "incompatible with everything" mod!"
It's pretty clear you have far more of a problem with Eloraam than she has with you. But the way you continue to to personally attack her to THIS DAY is pretty obnoxious, aside from throwing out things like "forge users tend to install everything to their jar" (surprise, hardly any mods but yours still use jar installs) and saying baseless things like "and in fact that cut-throat competitive attitude now pretty much permeates the entire Forge community" (wait, don't I see most of the big Forge mod-authors, including Eloraam, playing together on Pahicraft every day thanks to Direwolf20? Aren't a good few BTW community people involved there as well?)
The only one that seems to be cut-throat competitive is you, and the white knighting is starting to look a bit tarnished after all this vitriol (and given the fact that she has never said a bad word about you, despite you publicly and continually blaming her for ruining your life, and given how you copied her horizontal windmills in a far more explicit fashion than any idea she's "stolen".)
Now If only it wasn't too late to patent windmills - here's hoping to god that no one else ever makes a mod with something that spins, because they will clearly be ripping off Flowerchild if they do.
HAHAHA excellent post! Expect to be attacked by his little group of flying monkeys shortly.
What part of "How about we get back on topic" don't you guys understand. Flowerchild, believe it or not you are not the only modder. The topic was about the pro & cons of using Forge, not an excuse fort you to have a session about Eloraam
Dude...seriously, check the dimensions of her Wind Mill blades. They're almost exact duplicates of mine. That simply does not happen by accident.
Similarly, check out the textures for the Igniter. You seriously want to argue that was accidental?
This isn't about her having wind mills or blocks that produce fire in her mod. She can go nuts with that. It's about intentionally instigating drama through copying exact details like that with the obvious intent of stirring up trouble.
I suspect you have an overly simplistic view of the situation where you think my response last night happened out of nowhere in some kind of bubble. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I actually would have been happy to simply move on from this a long time ago if your mod author of choice wasn't intent on continuing to provoke.
You yourself seem upset that "everyone has Wind Mills now". Now, imagine that you put a year and a half of work into something, to have someone start pulling those kinds of shenanigans just to get under your skin.
From your posts, I sincerely doubt you'd be less upset than I am. It actually looks a lot like you would be more so.
You know, I have said before that I get where you are coming from, and I do, but like, a line has to be drawn somwhere. I modeled a horizontal windmill myself and it looked very similar to what Eloraam has now, too - I mean, there aren't really many options when it comes to that if you want to keep it looking fairly realistic (and ofc, my modelling skills aren't exactly amazing.) But I thought I was being all original, like, "hey, I found a way to make something cool and spinny that won't be copying FC!" Would I have been, under this premise?
And while you can certainly see a texture similarity between the Igniter and Hibachi, they are totally functionally different - the Igniter really is just a block of Netherrack you can switch on and off
But are you REALLY sure she is just trying to get to you? I mean, her windmills aren't anything new either - they've been in the mod, but disabled, for like what - 8 months? Slowpoke said they were there when he first met Eloraam, a good while ago, at least. Maybe my view is simplistic as an outsider, but man, it is really starting to sound like major paranoia.
Anyways, I probably just sound like some kind of hater, which is a shame because I do enjoy BTW quite a bit - it's a great mod, and I've played it a lot, especially recently. Like I posted last night, if I ever made a major mod, it would take way more after BTW than anything else, in the sense of trying to keep things interesting/challenging over convenient. It's this relentless crusade that gets aggravating, whichever side it comes from. But really, either way, I don't let any of this crap influence which mods I actually play.
What part of "How about we get back on topic" don't you guys understand. Flowerchild, believe it or not you are not the only modder. The topic was about the pro & cons of using Forge, not an excuse fort you to have a session about Eloraam
Again...I was asked, I responded. A thread such as this is similarly not an excuse to have a little "bash Flower" session.
What part of "How about we get back on topic" don't you guys understand. Flowerchild, believe it or not you are not the only modder. The topic was about the pro & cons of using Forge, not an excuse fort you to have a session about Eloraam
Yes. FlowerChild, take your drama elsewhere. I used to love your mod, but your consistent drama and killing of compatibility ruined it for me. I could care less about what happened between you and Eloraam, that's not the point of this discussion.
But are you REALLY sure she is just trying to get to you? I mean, her windmills aren't anything new either - they've been in the mod, but disabled, for like what - 8 months?
Yup, I'm absolutely positive beyond any reasonable doubt. Of course, I realize that it is next to impossible to convince anyone else of that, but I am not overly disturbed by it.
Just FYI, your Tesla Coils are entirely safe. It was probably obvious, but I was making a point with that post, not implying that I'd actually rip you off.
Yes. FlowerChild, take your drama elsewhere. I used to love your mod, but your consistent drama and killing of compatibility ruined it for me. I could care less about what happened between you and Eloraam, that's not the point of this discussion.
I see...so the above kind of attack must be the point of the discussion yes? *my* drama? *my* killing of compatibility.
Yes...I should obviously adhere to your standards of objectivity and everything would be fine.
From a end user standpoint, it's a godsend. But for modders? I don't know.
I can partially understand FlowerChild's point. It's huge, and edits tons of base classes. I wouldn't claim they update quick or slow, because the speed at which something goes is directly scaled to how bad you want it(you really want something? Feels like it never gets released). And I use forge, so when I see a updated version of Minecraft is released, I sometimes feel that mods can't update quick enough.
But if any degree of the problem is with a person on the team... Then it sounds like Egos are clashing. Might not be, but it sounds like it to me. I LIKE that Forge has many hooks for many things. Why? Because more mods can be compatible with each other then. Might step on toes, yes. Might get insanely huge, yes. Might be able to do everything you want in Minecraft one day too, without needing other APIs, such as the Mod API Mojang is working on.
If forge is going to be continued past the eventual release of the ModAPI, it's going to have to do more things. And from what I know about Official Mod Support, it sometimes(often in my eyes) falls short of what people want.
So to come clean, I got curious when you said Forge took 2 weeks to release a update for 1.3, and looked things up. I checked the Better then Wolves Wiki and saw that SMP support was added at that time, and since there wasn't a blurb on what minecraft version it was for, but it was at the bottom of the list before the "old" releases, I thought that might have been the time you updated for 1.3.2, FlowerChild.
To be honest, I like Better Then Wolves. I used it back when it had Forge Support(yeah, that long ago). Had some issues, never brought them up, and before I knew it, the stance for BTW was not Pro-Forge but Anti-Forge, thus I couldn't keep using it in my setup.
I would set up a install just for it, but I can't see a reason to use just one mod when I know of so many more. It's just not enough for me to play Minecraft.
Also this could be considered my fault. I should have kept that stray thought off the keyboard.
On topic, I suppose: A possible Pro: New Creative Tabs. Possible, because I don't know if it's actually a Forge feature or Modloader itself.
I've only seen one mod with one(not that I've looked super hard) which doesn't edit base classes, but still, it could be a really useful thing for people. A Structures Tab would be awesome, even just for Railcraft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Minecraft is like an orgasm - even science can't describe it"
[quote=Cryptonat][quote=Snitch]Basically you're stuck in hell till you find a portal out. There are alternatives to pig, by the way, as you probably know. :> There are no alternatives to Bacon. Ever.
Again...I was asked, I responded. A thread such as this is similarly not an excuse to have a little "bash Flower" session.
How is this a "bash flower" session? The only thing that anyone has said against you is that it seems that you are acting childish in this whole situation with you massive witch hunt against Eloraam. Before you came along this was a nice calm discussion which some of us have been trying to get it back to.
How is this a "bash flower" session? The only thing that anyone has said against you is that it seems that you are acting childish in this whole situation with you massive witch hunt against Eloraam. Before you came along this was a nice calm discussion which some of us have been trying to get it back to.
Well, for exactly the reasons your post amply illustrate. You're using antagonistic language such as "childish" and "witch hunt" to place the fault firmly on my shoulders.
Perpetuating conflict while saying you're trying to somehow stop it is always good for a chuckle.
And actually, my first post to this topic was entirely calm and reasonable. It's only when the accusations started flying that I responded to that.
It's also interesting that in having a discussion about the pros and cons of Forge, you'd basically like the primary voice against it to step away from the table.
The only modders other then FlowerChild i've seen dislike forge are cut/paste modders that barely know anything about java. If FlowerChild doesn't want to use forge good for him, it's his mod. He knows people would like forge compatibility but it's his choice not to have it. I also don't see the problem with forge modifying the majority of files since it does so on behalf of other mods. If the mod is coded effectively it won't have to overwrite any base files therefore being compatible with all other forge mods.
You know, I was once told a very wise phrase,
"It takes two to argue."
So tell me, if you're all getting on fine, why is there arguing?
And not to nitpick, but FC's valid in what he posts; The topics about opinions on Forge, he's stated his. The fact that one of the major cons for him is an over-competitive mod author with deliberate pokes at any possible competition, is also totally valid.
NOTe: None of the opinions expressed above are my own, merely what I've read from others.
Eloraam quit Forge development almost as soon as FC did... not to mention that she has been totally MIA until a week or 2 ago for like, 4 months, and so was totally uninvolved with the Forge Mod Loader and so on. So meh.
I would actually be very interested in reasons that you don't like Forge, Flowerchild, other than the stuff with Eloraam (no sarcasm.) Like, technical reasons and so on.
Well, for exactly the reasons your post amply illustrate. You're using antagonistic language such as "childish" and "witch hunt" to place the fault firmly on my shoulders.
Perpetuating conflict while saying you're trying to somehow stop it is always good for a chuckle.
And actually, my first post to this topic was entirely calm and reasonable. It's only when the accusations started flying that I responded to that.
It's also interesting that in having a discussion about the pros and cons of Forge, you'd basically like the primary voice against it to step away from the table.
Did you not read above, there were a couple of posts that were trying to deviate from this whole Flowerchild vs Forge Developers line, which you clearly brought it back down to.
Your first post in the topic went right to having a dig at Elorram for copying features and the whole Forge community for being competitive. This is not a con against Forge, this is an attack because you have a disagreement with the developers and you extending it to all modders who use forge (which I am part of).
Did I ever tell you to go away? No all I was trying to do is keep off this derailment of the topic, as we were trying to do above.
Back on Topic: This is a question to FC, I still don't get the argument over "bloat" I would like to hear your views on it.
So tell me, if you're all getting on fine, why is there arguing?
And not to nitpick, but FC's valid in what he posts; The topics about opinions on Forge, he's stated his. The fact that one of the major cons for him is an over-competitive mod author with deliberate pokes at any possible competition, is also totally valid.
And it also remains valid in that the Forge continues to exhibit those tendencies, such as in what it's currently trying to do with Modloader and Risugami.
Does anyone here really think it's valid for them to be blatantly advertising what is basically a competing mod in his very thread while he is being subjected to relentless update pesters?
Seriously? How is that possibly justifiable? The guy has been largely keeping modding going single-handedly for a couple of years now, and any modders here owe him a debt of gratitude as a result. Does he really deserve that kind of treatment?
Eloraam quite Forge development almost as soon as FC did... not to mention that she has been totally MIA until a week or 2 ago for like, 4 months. So meh.
No, that's just the public show, and honestly I think it was made in an attempt to court me back into the Forge. Lex has admitted to me point blank that she's still involved.
I've heard it said by many on both sides of the argument that end-users shouldn't actually care about what modders do between themselves, simply because internal modding politics is complicated.
So, what are some of the cons of forge for end users? When I read through the original thread on Forge, I saw something about the 4096 block id fix. The way I understood it, the implementation of it would make it impossible to revert a forge world to a non-forge world without crashing the game or having some other negative effect.
I don't know why someone would want to uninstall all the mods they have on a world they've invested time in, but is the possibility there?
Also, the ore dictionary. While it's good at insuring compatibility, it does damage balance to an extent, making it nearly impossible from what I understand. Also, what happens when modders don't register their ores or materials? There was a bug a while back with EBXL's wood not being usable in other mods' recipes.
This would mostly be human error and not a fault of the API itself, but it's still a valid point, is it not?
This part is distinctly off-topic from the original point of the thread.
Not to nitpick, but this IS a con. An API that is designed for co-operation should not have a competitive user-base, it makes no sense.
This is a con, but is it argumentum ad hominem? Is Forge competitive internally, within the modders that use it, or externally, with the modders that don't?
I too would like to hear FlowerChild's argument on bloat instead of a rant on imperialistic ambitions, as we all know the reasoning behind that line of thought. I would like to know the full picture, instead of just the half that is claimed to be the main cause of all the turmoil.
No, that's just the public show, and honestly I think it was made in an attempt to court me back into the Forge. Lex has admitted to me point blank that she's still involved.
Lex has almost as big of a reputation as a troll as you do..... :S
Anyways, Risu definately deserves mad respect, but as I posted a couple pages ago, if he was refusing to let them use ML in the modpack they were building, why should they not make their own? Not to mention the convenience to a "modding noob" (ie, someone that really doesn't understand how MC mods work, which there are obviously plenty of) of only having to put one thing in their .jar. It is a hard situation to call.
Again, I would just ignore what people say about you leaving the Forge project, ignore what other mod authors are doing and focus on making what you want to make. All the drama and bickering doesn't help anyone. Maybe childish is the wrong word, but personal grievances really shouldn't be public consumption. It really only attracts negative attention. You seem like a really smart guy and should rise above it and do the things you want to do.
The whole thing going on is unfortunate, but this is what life is made of. However continuing on will inevitably escalate and some people will suffer. So, I ask everybody to just simply drop it and return to discuss about Forge.
I'll even kick things off (and forgive me if I'm repeating myself, I haven't read the whole topic) Agreed Forge is becoming "bloated" however there is not much option in this. Adding features to an API that not all mods will use will lead to complexity, users will have to download other APIs, more incompatibilities, more problems, etc etc. So ultimately it comes down to a choice: Make Forge and other mods harder to use and work well together but keep Forge simple. Or make Forge bloated with features that not every mod uses and make life slightly easier for users and modders alike?
I might also add that when the minecraft official API is released, a lot of these features of Forge will be stripped out I suspect. Time will tell though I suppose.
Not quoting ofc, but this is a summary of what I heard about it. Slowpoke makes the FTB modpack - So he and some of the main Forge contributors that are also involved went to #risucraft to ask him if it was OK to include it for that map. He was a jerk and told them no very rudely, despite the fact that most modpacks don't even bother to request permission to use ML. Given that, they decided to say hell with it and just make their own, rather than beg him, and I can't really blame them for that, since the alternative would be to just scrap their modpack - and I don't really think, despite how awesome Risu has been to the community, that he should be deciding what kinds of mods people can make. But I guess the moral I'm trying to get at is, they aren't modding gods or anything, just some random kids that aren't on some kind of high moral plane or anything, especially since the "big 3" have all quit the project - so maybe it shouldn't be judged as harshly as people seem to want to do.
I still don't understand this argument. Is it not better having an API making many base class edits so multiple mods can do "special" stuff then having each mod try to make it's own edits and thus killing comparability? Even if many of the hooks are not used on each individuals mod setup, they will defiantly be used on peoples set up on a whole
Dude...seriously, check the dimensions of her Wind Mill blades. They're almost exact duplicates of mine. That simply does not happen by accident.
Similarly, check out the textures for the Igniter. You seriously want to argue that was accidental?
This isn't about her having wind mills or blocks that produce fire in her mod. She can go nuts with that. It's about intentionally instigating drama through copying exact details like that with the obvious intent of stirring up trouble.
I suspect you have an overly simplistic view of the situation where you think my response last night happened out of nowhere in some kind of bubble. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I actually would have been happy to simply move on from this a long time ago if your mod author of choice wasn't intent on continuing to provoke.
You yourself seem upset that "everyone has Wind Mills now". Now, imagine that you put a year and a half of work into something, to have someone start pulling those kinds of shenanigans just to get under your skin.
From your posts, I sincerely doubt you'd be less upset than I am. It actually looks a lot like you would be more so.
HAHAHA excellent post! Expect to be attacked by his little group of flying monkeys shortly.
You know, I have said before that I get where you are coming from, and I do, but like, a line has to be drawn somwhere. I modeled a horizontal windmill myself and it looked very similar to what Eloraam has now, too - I mean, there aren't really many options when it comes to that if you want to keep it looking fairly realistic (and ofc, my modelling skills aren't exactly amazing.) But I thought I was being all original, like, "hey, I found a way to make something cool and spinny that won't be copying FC!" Would I have been, under this premise?
And while you can certainly see a texture similarity between the Igniter and Hibachi, they are totally functionally different - the Igniter really is just a block of Netherrack you can switch on and off
But are you REALLY sure she is just trying to get to you? I mean, her windmills aren't anything new either - they've been in the mod, but disabled, for like what - 8 months? Slowpoke said they were there when he first met Eloraam, a good while ago, at least. Maybe my view is simplistic as an outsider, but man, it is really starting to sound like major paranoia.
Anyways, I probably just sound like some kind of hater, which is a shame because I do enjoy BTW quite a bit - it's a great mod, and I've played it a lot, especially recently. Like I posted last night, if I ever made a major mod, it would take way more after BTW than anything else, in the sense of trying to keep things interesting/challenging over convenient. It's this relentless crusade that gets aggravating, whichever side it comes from. But really, either way, I don't let any of this crap influence which mods I actually play.
Again...I was asked, I responded. A thread such as this is similarly not an excuse to have a little "bash Flower" session.
Yes. FlowerChild, take your drama elsewhere. I used to love your mod, but your consistent drama and killing of compatibility ruined it for me. I could care less about what happened between you and Eloraam, that's not the point of this discussion.
Yup, I'm absolutely positive beyond any reasonable doubt. Of course, I realize that it is next to impossible to convince anyone else of that, but I am not overly disturbed by it.
Just FYI, your Tesla Coils are entirely safe. It was probably obvious, but I was making a point with that post, not implying that I'd actually rip you off.
I see...so the above kind of attack must be the point of the discussion yes? *my* drama? *my* killing of compatibility.
Yes...I should obviously adhere to your standards of objectivity and everything would be fine.
I can partially understand FlowerChild's point. It's huge, and edits tons of base classes. I wouldn't claim they update quick or slow, because the speed at which something goes is directly scaled to how bad you want it(you really want something? Feels like it never gets released). And I use forge, so when I see a updated version of Minecraft is released, I sometimes feel that mods can't update quick enough.
But if any degree of the problem is with a person on the team... Then it sounds like Egos are clashing. Might not be, but it sounds like it to me. I LIKE that Forge has many hooks for many things. Why? Because more mods can be compatible with each other then. Might step on toes, yes. Might get insanely huge, yes. Might be able to do everything you want in Minecraft one day too, without needing other APIs, such as the Mod API Mojang is working on.
If forge is going to be continued past the eventual release of the ModAPI, it's going to have to do more things. And from what I know about Official Mod Support, it sometimes(often in my eyes) falls short of what people want.
So to come clean, I got curious when you said Forge took 2 weeks to release a update for 1.3, and looked things up. I checked the Better then Wolves Wiki and saw that SMP support was added at that time, and since there wasn't a blurb on what minecraft version it was for, but it was at the bottom of the list before the "old" releases, I thought that might have been the time you updated for 1.3.2, FlowerChild.
To be honest, I like Better Then Wolves. I used it back when it had Forge Support(yeah, that long ago). Had some issues, never brought them up, and before I knew it, the stance for BTW was not Pro-Forge but Anti-Forge, thus I couldn't keep using it in my setup.
I would set up a install just for it, but I can't see a reason to use just one mod when I know of so many more. It's just not enough for me to play Minecraft.
Also this could be considered my fault. I should have kept that stray thought off the keyboard.
On topic, I suppose: A possible Pro: New Creative Tabs. Possible, because I don't know if it's actually a Forge feature or Modloader itself.
I've only seen one mod with one(not that I've looked super hard) which doesn't edit base classes, but still, it could be a really useful thing for people. A Structures Tab would be awesome, even just for Railcraft.
"Minecraft is like an orgasm - even science can't describe it"
[quote=Cryptonat][quote=Snitch]Basically you're stuck in hell till you find a portal out. There are alternatives to pig, by the way, as you probably know. :> There are no alternatives to Bacon. Ever.
How is this a "bash flower" session? The only thing that anyone has said against you is that it seems that you are acting childish in this whole situation with you massive witch hunt against Eloraam. Before you came along this was a nice calm discussion which some of us have been trying to get it back to.
Well, for exactly the reasons your post amply illustrate. You're using antagonistic language such as "childish" and "witch hunt" to place the fault firmly on my shoulders.
Perpetuating conflict while saying you're trying to somehow stop it is always good for a chuckle.
And actually, my first post to this topic was entirely calm and reasonable. It's only when the accusations started flying that I responded to that.
It's also interesting that in having a discussion about the pros and cons of Forge, you'd basically like the primary voice against it to step away from the table.
Eloraam quit Forge development almost as soon as FC did... not to mention that she has been totally MIA until a week or 2 ago for like, 4 months, and so was totally uninvolved with the Forge Mod Loader and so on. So meh.
I would actually be very interested in reasons that you don't like Forge, Flowerchild, other than the stuff with Eloraam (no sarcasm.) Like, technical reasons and so on.
Did you not read above, there were a couple of posts that were trying to deviate from this whole Flowerchild vs Forge Developers line, which you clearly brought it back down to.
Your first post in the topic went right to having a dig at Elorram for copying features and the whole Forge community for being competitive. This is not a con against Forge, this is an attack because you have a disagreement with the developers and you extending it to all modders who use forge (which I am part of).
Did I ever tell you to go away? No all I was trying to do is keep off this derailment of the topic, as we were trying to do above.
Back on Topic: This is a question to FC, I still don't get the argument over "bloat" I would like to hear your views on it.
And it also remains valid in that the Forge continues to exhibit those tendencies, such as in what it's currently trying to do with Modloader and Risugami.
Does anyone here really think it's valid for them to be blatantly advertising what is basically a competing mod in his very thread while he is being subjected to relentless update pesters?
Seriously? How is that possibly justifiable? The guy has been largely keeping modding going single-handedly for a couple of years now, and any modders here owe him a debt of gratitude as a result. Does he really deserve that kind of treatment?
No, that's just the public show, and honestly I think it was made in an attempt to court me back into the Forge. Lex has admitted to me point blank that she's still involved.
So, what are some of the cons of forge for end users? When I read through the original thread on Forge, I saw something about the 4096 block id fix. The way I understood it, the implementation of it would make it impossible to revert a forge world to a non-forge world without crashing the game or having some other negative effect.
I don't know why someone would want to uninstall all the mods they have on a world they've invested time in, but is the possibility there?
Also, the ore dictionary. While it's good at insuring compatibility, it does damage balance to an extent, making it nearly impossible from what I understand. Also, what happens when modders don't register their ores or materials? There was a bug a while back with EBXL's wood not being usable in other mods' recipes.
This would mostly be human error and not a fault of the API itself, but it's still a valid point, is it not?
This part is distinctly off-topic from the original point of the thread.
This is a con, but is it argumentum ad hominem? Is Forge competitive internally, within the modders that use it, or externally, with the modders that don't?
I too would like to hear FlowerChild's argument on bloat instead of a rant on imperialistic ambitions, as we all know the reasoning behind that line of thought. I would like to know the full picture, instead of just the half that is claimed to be the main cause of all the turmoil.
Lex has almost as big of a reputation as a troll as you do..... :S
Anyways, Risu definately deserves mad respect, but as I posted a couple pages ago, if he was refusing to let them use ML in the modpack they were building, why should they not make their own? Not to mention the convenience to a "modding noob" (ie, someone that really doesn't understand how MC mods work, which there are obviously plenty of) of only having to put one thing in their .jar. It is a hard situation to call.