Your idea does sound pretty awesome. I'll admit. I extra like the idea of conquering a task in an age letting you have one of a special power or specifically created special machine that represents the mod you conquered...but isn't powerful enough to ruin everything. Its a very neat idea.
As I said though, I still think the overall idea of automation in a game like Minecraft needs some form of PLAYER time sink. My idea for it would be maintenance based on the speed you try yo make the machine go (aka dump more power into it.. and it wears out faster). Some other method could be used as well.. like requiring a player to actually manually operate a machine for it to function, but have it function fast...that kind of thing. I think the maintenance is the better option as it allows machines to still be automatic, but limits how many a player can have active at once, in a way that feels a natural part of play.
Ok before I begin, I want to say that I generally don't play minecraft much anymore (modding is more fun) and never really got into using the "big autmation tech mods".
I was actually going to come into the opposite side of the configuration argument for a few technical reasons. Random options are fine, its when you get into enableing/disabling items/blocks that I thought there could be an issue.
But while reading through the topic and walking off to get a drink I actually thought of a way around it (just hear me out, the idea isn't very well thought through yet).
Basically instaed of disabling items/blocks at the item/block level, why not just disable it at the crafting level? Best part of this solution is that a mod could actually be created that is designed to run in forge's post initialisation method that scans the crafting recipies and removes any that produce the offending item. This means that server admins can prevent players from crafting the item (the item would still be able to be spawned by commands which i guess could be used for rewards).
Like I said the solution will only work for enabling/diabling items that the admins of servers think are too overpowered, and does not really address Ecu's original issue about automation being too overpowered. But I guess it is a solution that some people may want. If people think that it is a good idea I might code up an alpha up on the weekend.
I was actually going to come into the opposite side of the configuration argument for a few technical reasons. Random options are fine, its when you get into enableing/disabling items/blocks that I thought there could be an issue.
Basically instaed of disabling items/blocks at the item/block level, why not just disable it at the crafting level?
Like I said the solution will only work for enabling/diabling items that the admins of servers think are too overpowered, and does not really address Ecu's original issue about automation being too overpowered. But I guess it is a solution that some people may want. If people think that it is a good idea I might code up an alpha up on the weekend.
Sure, this sounds good to me. I could see disabling at the config file block/item ID level might cause problems with crashes or compatibility. I don't really care how it is done as long we have the option to customize things to our liking.
I can see a server admin using an item or block that opens a GUI (the RP2 Configuration Tool or some such) and lets him enable or disable things. Maybe NEI/Craftguide would show that disabled item in the list with a circle and line overlaid on top to show it is banned/disabled to the players.
As for automation.. like it has been said above: By the time you even get to the automation part, you have already "won" as far as vanilla goes. If you want to get into the Nether to get the glowstone that most mods require then you need a diamond pick, the epitome of Vanilla tech, to get obsidian. Mods that automate things just extend that and give you a use for all those resources you already have.
Sure, this sounds good to me. I could see disabling at the config file block/item ID level might cause problems with crashes or compatibility. I don't really care how it is done as long we have the option to customize things to our liking.
I can see a server admin using an item or block that opens a GUI (the RP2 Configuration Tool or some such) and lets him enable or disable things. Maybe NEI/Craftguide would show that disabled item in the list with a circle and line overlaid on top to show it is banned/disabled to the players.
As for automation.. like it has been said above: By the time you even get to the automation part, you have already "won" as far as vanilla goes. If you want to get into the Nether to get the glowstone that most mods require then you need a diamond pick, the epitome of Vanilla tech, to get obsidian. Mods that automate things just extend that and give you a use for all those resources you already have.
I actually already whipped up a quick test mod. As a test I disabled the recipe for wooden swords and it worked fine. For configuration it just uses a very very basic config file where you list the ids of any items/blocks you want the recipies disabled for. The mod will then read this file and remove the recipies.
There is no GUI or anything, it will all have to be done through a text file. Hell the GUI likely wouldn't work anyway as it has to be done on server startup. There really also is no way of integration with other mods in the way it is currently set up. After I test more & release I would be willing to provide the "banned" list for other mods, but right now it is just essentially a quick dirty fix.
I actually already whipped up a quick test mod. As a test I disabled the recipe for wooden swords and it worked fine. For configuration it just uses a very very basic config file where you list the ids of any items/blocks you want the recipies disabled for. The mod will then read this file and remove the recipies.
There is no GUI or anything, it will all have to be done through a text file. Hell the GUI likely wouldn't work anyway as it has to be done on server startup. There really also is no way of integration with other mods in the way it is currently set up. After I test more & release I would be willing to provide the "banned" list for other mods, but right now it is just essentially a quick dirty fix.
I like this! Let the individual server owners decide what is "good" for their server. I wouldn't worry too much about providing a "banned" list of items for mods though, its a nice thought but with Block ID's that have been configured to avoid ID conflicts each server could be different.
As for automation.. like it has been said above: By the time you even get to the automation part, you have already "won" as far as vanilla goes. If you want to get into the Nether to get the glowstone that most mods require then you need a diamond pick, the epitome of Vanilla tech, to get obsidian. Mods that automate things just extend that and give you a use for all those resources you already have.
Just because you have reached the end of vanilla tech by the time you generally get automation, doesn't mean it should be overpowered. Honestly, none of the tech mods give you enough use for the resources you gain from automation. Automation creates a surplus of resources beyond what you need...and it takes the player out of the game completely.
This is MINECRAFT.... aka.. Mining... and Crafting. Automation tends to remove the need to do either...kind of completely removing the two core aspects of the game...
These viewpoints conflict. Why are you worried about idoits, then happy to include a non-intuitive mechanic further down the road? On block in Vanillia Minecraft needs to be maintained to keep it going beyond 'add fuel'. On the other hand, unless you use a modpack because seriously **** resolving Block IDs manually, using mods requires some level of config file poking. Just throw the config information a big 'Read this or else' spoiler box and then mock anyone who complains about different sizes because they can't follow basic instructions.
Also, if maintaining stuff is do in a way that is fun, it can't be tedious, because tedious stuff ins't fun. It's not fun by definition, since something that's tiring due to dullness is a bad thing for a game, since games shouldn't be dull.
Three words: World of Warcraft. Or really, Massive Multiplayer Online. Every MMO has some incredible tedious things in it, heck, if you go back in time to when EverQuest was all the rage, that whole game was one exercise in tediousness. Yet people played it.
I can see Ecu's point, and also the points on the opposite end of the fence, however...
I think that Ecu has a better point. The automation removes the need for the player to do anything besides log in and sit there and do, well, not much of anything. You gain resources beyond what you would ever use, even if you were to go overboard and build a solid 100x100x100 cube of cobblestone, you'd still have more. You'd always have the best tools, the best armor, the best of everything - but for what? Building stuff? That's the point that Ecu is making; at that point in time, you might as well be playing in creative mode since the net effect (unlimited blocks) is the same.
Heck even in vanilla without mods, I have more string, spider eyes, feathers, flint, wood, redstone and slimeballs than I know what to do with, and all that was a matter of a few hours of work. Most of that time went into rigging all the farms in such a way that they work upside down since my base is almost at bedrock level, so instead of transporting bits up I need them down (easier but not always).
If I were to have automated that, I'd probably end up tossing half of it in my lava pool since I'd never ever use it. Heck, I've seen mods that let you set up an auto-killer on your mob farm, and it will even store the xp for you. Less than what you'd get if you killed things yourself, but still. It keeps the chunk loaded too so it's like, you log in, turn it on, log out, come back a few days later, and presto, you can now make 24 diamond picks and enchant them all.
I don't see the fun in that. Building the doohickeys, sure, but that only lasts so long.
As an aside, personally I consider some of these mods to be a pain in the neck for a server operator since they keep chunks loaded; not that it's a lot of memory, but if you've got half the map in memory purely because of chunk loaders that keep chunks around so they can tick, that's not something I'd really be happy with. The fact that things don't receive ticks in unloaded chunks has a reason, and a lot of mods throw this reason right out the window because otherwise they wouldn't work. Considering that on average 32 loaded chunks take up about 80Mb of memory, you're often looking at a few extra Gb just for the automated doohickeys. Add to that that both the vanilla minecraft server and bukkit are memory hungry pigs, and you're looking at the whole "yeah you need 32Gb ram on your server to run this" thing. (Which, to me, is utterly ridiculous).
So all in all, the whole focus on "let's automate everything until there's nothing left to automate" is detrimental to minecraft as a game, because you have now turned it from a game into, well, what is it really? A showcase of your ability to follow recipes and build machines? If the normal balance (for whatever value is considered normal) is broken, what you end up with is not even remotely fun to play.
Again, this is my opinion so feel free to agree, disagree or ignore it
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Looking for a friendly community? Look no further, and join the BlockStackers! We run a Vanilla whitelisted server, a Feed The Beast server, and a Survival server with some twists.
This allows a second level of advancement, as you gather up skills to reduce your daycount. These skills can help you adventure more each day, kill monsters better, or get more items and meat (money). A system like this could be interesting on a Minecraft server. Everyone, maybe in teams, works towards some goal. Once everyone gets there, they can add an item to a starting equipment list. Then they repeat the challenge. This would create an interesting metagame based around what items to take with you.
This concept fits in super well with some of the ideas I was having for "multi-mods-craft": a proposed mod that would lets players start in a mostly vanilla-ish world and get the resources to open a portal to a separate age where various mods are enabled. You can't take any items with you to this mod age, so each time you do so you start from scratch, except that once you beat the mod age you gain a permanent player ability that you can take with you through these portals, so that you have a little bit more power in the main overworld, but also more starting power for creating another new mod age to travel to. Alternatively, beating a mod age with a single basic mod installed might unlock mod ages with other mods or combinations of mods. Also, if you wanted to, instead of giving players permanent player abilities (things they can do bare-handed, passive buffs, etc) you could make the reward item for beating a mod age be an exception to the general rule that you can't transfer items between ages, so that you would have a starting inventory on the next iteration like you mention happens on 'Kingdom of Loathing'
Also is it me or is Ecu in a way complaining about the way people what to play Minecraft? If he doesn't like automation mods, he doesn't have to use them, but some people enjkoy them.
Yes, he is. Also, both sides of this debate have been stating their opinions as facts and seem to not realize that they are opinions.
My two cents. When I first started adding mods to my game, I didnt know I wanted industry and tech in minecraft until I saw how many there are. I must say, as cool and interesting as Industrialcraft and its kin are, industry mods arent at all what I initially expected when I first encountered them. Foremost I thought they would look the part, moving conveyor belts and leaky pipes, electrical sparks etc. Considering how focused on the asthetic minecraft is it seemed odd to me that Industrialcraft and buildcraft are so damn ugly. Another thing I wasnt expecting is the level of tedium and needless complexity they add. I think they are a product of their environment, with the advent of redstone mechanisms and the mindset of those who like writing code. Of course tech mods will add more complexity to the game but anyone who has even watched a moment of a tech based lets play knows that the vast majority of their time is spent standing around crafting a into b, b into c and c, d, e and f into g...oh wait I forgot to craft an h damnit.
With that said, I must say Im disappointed to see that this project appears to be going in exactly the opposite direction of where Id like to see the next big tech mod go. Even more complex and tedious instead of a cartoonish, simplified appoach which I think would be so much more fun.
While I do agree with some automation being too easy I think your approach is a little too extreme. I think first and foremost Minecraft is about designing things. Sure you can say Minecraft is about gathering resources (mine) and about crafting items (craft) but those are only a means to an end. They are part of the journey and they add value to the journey but watching an item take 30 minutes to smelt/craft so that you can use it isn’t fun. Spending 30 minutes designing, planning out, and creating what you wanted to make is fun. And by creating I don’t mean watching a bar go across a screen I mean laying the blocks out and making it.
Let me use an example of the approach that you (and what I have also heard Slowpoke101 talk about during his streams): Let’s use the topic of automated resource gathering. What if a BC Quarry (which I think is OP by itself without the help of any synergies from other mods) instead requires a special crafting table in which you put all the ingredients in and it takes 1 in-game day to finish crafting. On top of that every in-game Minecraft day you have to go over to the Quarry and are forced to manually add a new stack of stone gears and it still requires the current power mechanics. Unless you are planning on make a mini game out of putting stone gears in the Quarry this is only a time sink and doesn’t add any measure of creativity or challenge to the game. Even if you do add a mini game it is going to have to be one hell of a mini game for people not to get tired of doing it after a thousand times. On the other hand you have to make the mining bore yourself and you spend 1 in-game day designing and placing the RP frames etc it is a much more fun experience. It is also a rewarding one because you step back and look at what you built not just something that took a crafting table a day to craft because in that situation only vein people are getting the reward of: “Look what I can afford and look how long I been on this server.”
I also think you are blaming the wrong people for the wrong things and therefore trying to get the wrong people to fix everything. You are blaming the authors because synergies that make the tech and automation mods too powerful together. Using logistics pipes with advanced machines is of course overpowered but this is not the fault of the either of the add-on mod authors. This is the fault of the user/server admin for installing both of these add-on mods together when they shouldn’t have. It is the users/servers admin fault for making themselves have a bad gameplay experience not the fault of Mod authors.
That being said blaming the user/server admin for liking only a couple of things in one mod and only wanting to enabling those has nothing to do with having a consistent experience with a mod. The whole point of having different servers is that there are different experiences to be had. The mod authors are at fault here for not allowing all items to be disabled or enable via a config file. And if people are too stupid to figure out how to properly set it up they will learn or not play.
(There can also be said something here about mods like Forestry that try to cater to two different mods. I can understand why Forestry added IC2 related items since Forestry wanted to become a standalone mod and since many people use IC2 it provides another way for IC2 users to produce BC energy besides peat engines.Obviously when both IC2 and BC are installed these caveats are going to cause it to be even more OP. This really just takes me back to needing to be able to disable features in the config file and making the user/server admin responsible for their own game experience.)
As for making tech and automation mods work together I think RP2 is coming the closet to achieving the best balance. The current problem with BC is that with IC2 it is OP. There is no cost to Sorting system besides the initial investment in infrastructure. With RP2 sorting systems require power to be supplied. I think RP2 power for sorting and magtubes are too cheap but the mechanic is there and it just goes back to having more config options being a better idea. In terms of IC2 EU power (since RP2 measurements are not as popular as a unit of measurement) what if each item you sort costs 1000 EU. Want to sort a stack of 64 items you need 64000 EU. Want to try and keep up with a frame bore that digs out a chunk at a time… good luck with that. That will give people the challenge to make more efficient bores, more efficient sorting systems, and bigger RP2 power plants. With this approach there is no need to have people keep whacking a wrench on a sorter every day or put gears in it or to even make an unreasonable amount of time to produce an item.
That is not to say that RP2 and IC2 aren’t OP together however that is mostly due to the ability of the macerator to double your ore. If you could disable macerators, watermills, and geothermal generators that would be a simple fix to make it much less OP. An even better solution would be if IC2 had config options to prevent its generators from receiving liquids through pipes/tubes and if the macerator didn’t have a 100% chance of doubling your ore. The best option would be if there was a quantum suite, drill, and chainsaw add-on for RP2 then I would completly drop IC2 and only have one major tech mod in my mods folder. That would also let servers only have to deal with 1 energy net and 1 item network, which I’m sure, would with help stability on larger servers.
I think the biggest problem though is that you are looking for a way to make a single player game with its single player gameplay that has had multiplayer tacked on into a multiplayer game with community based multiplayer gameplay.
The cartoonish approach to repairing machines? it stops working, emits smoke and maybe even vibrates but it doesnt EXPLODE. And all you have to do is smack it with a wrench a few times (which will eat up the durabilty of the wrench) for a chance to repair it. A very low chance it will just break entirely and give you back some of what you used to create it in the first place. The better quality wrench, the better chance it has of repairing.
Here's my considered take on this problem: Minecraft isn't a game you're supposed to "win".
Think about it. The End was added because people got nasty at Notch about Real Games having an End. Lots of players believe that "winning is the only thing", and thus play to win. If they don't have a defined win condition, they make their own, and typically it is: "The Mostest". They play in order to end their own enjoyment of the game! When they're bored with "winning" but not of the server/world they're on, they start to screw around and come up with ways to make new kinds of fun that don't necessarily jive with other peoples' ideas of fun.
Me, I'm playing a single-player world in 1.2.5 (still!), with several goals: Make a mass-fab, kill the Ender dragon, and explore Mystcraft reasonably fully. Now, I could have focused on killing Endermen and searching for a stronghold. I could have started that even before I had an IC2 drill, an emerald sword, and iron armor. I'm still searching for a Nether fortress (bleah, I want a better map down there), but that's just a function of time spent; finding one is eventually guaranteed if I search thoroughly and stick with it. But in the meantime, I have a mass fabricator and am learning UU matter recipes for later use. And I'm building a crane-style RP2 frame quarry using CC computers to control it and observe its positioning, so that my quarry will be self-sustaining and self-correcting once started. Heck, I figure I'll just stick a lever next to my control computer and use that to tell the thing whether or not to run! I'm discovering issues with my RP2/IC2 sorting/smelting system that require I use BC and possibly Logistics Pipes to fix, specifically because I'm forcing myself to fit nearly the entire system in funny-shaped, cramped quarters directly beneath my house, instead of digging a second basement or ignoring the size of my building's walls to make an area as big as I desire. I'm learning about blocks and mechanics I've never used before, like the RP2 buffer. And I'm having fun with all that, even though I have had to sit through the miserable tedium of macerating and smelting all my ores by hand up to this point (I got the auto-processing done today)!
Why am I doing all this stuff, and why am I telling you about it?
I was a member on the Mud-Dev mailing list for years, and one of the most basic understandings that everyone on that list shared and talked about is that different people have different ways to play. The initial paper on this observation was written by a man named Richard Bartle, who classified players after the four suits of a poker deck, but the common naming is this:
* Achievers, who like to build things and complete tasks
* Explorers, who find things and see new experiences
* Socializers, who are mostly there to hang out and do stuff with friends
* Killers, who want in-your-face activities and person-on-person challenge, and often turn to griefing if they don't get what they want
I'm not particularly driven to achievement or exploration. I want to socialize, mostly. I try to avoid combat, preferring instead to progress in mostly-safe activities. However, I'm also a designer of systems, and I love to make new ways to do things. I give myself new design challenges in every world, and in general, I meet every one that I can.
In a multiplayer setting, you are guaranteed to have more than one type of player on any given server, unless you filter extremely strictly. Note that on Pahicraft (if you follow any of the members' streams or YouTube channels), Direwolf20 likes to chat with his friends and build stuff; Soaryn also likes to hang out and build stuff; RichardG likes to play tricks and fight; while Player and several others have basically turned their Ages into big holes in the world with their gigantic quarries and created self-building, self-feeding, mass-fabricated high-energy solar power arrays. That's three of the four player types represented, with the possibility that explorer types are on the server but just not on my personal radar. And the filter for that server is basically "a very small group of friends that Pahimar knows, followed by some of their friends that got invited later on".
The most important thing you can do to have a fun experience, when you can choose your own experience, is to choose an experience that fits your playing style; in multiplayer situations, you should choose to play with people of reasonably like mind who are willing to accommodate your personal playing style even if theirs is different. It seems to me that there is no other way to have a good experience in a game. If you hate fighting games, it doesn't matter how good the fighting game is, you aren't likely to enjoy it. If you hate exploring, but the only way to get what you want is hunt for it across large areas of unknown (and mostly unmappable) territory, you're probably going to hate getting that thing. If the people you're playing with want to fight each other and you'd prefer to quietly build something nice for yourself, you're probably going to be griefed and hate it.
Ultimately, you will define for yourself the point at which there is "no point" playing the game. If you like the game and want to keep playing, know where that point is, and design your experiences to avoid it without denying your personal style of enjoyment. Even if you try, you have no actual means of dictating to other players how they should enjoy the game. Argue all you want, but people are different from each other, and this is a good thing, even if it means they won't all want to play a given game or use a given mod in the same way -- even if you intend for them to do it a certain way, and even if you limit as many other ways to do it as possible. Many will consider those limits a challenge to be overcome!
Provide options. Provide limits. Provide challenges inherent in your designs, but don't provide those challenges for the sake of grinding if you don't provide a reward! Differing play styles is the first problem in MMO design; the problem of grinding is the second, and people only do it if there's a sufficient reward. Otherwise, it's a Job, and Jobs Get Paid. They'll pay someone else to farm gold or reagents, or grind up their characters' levels and skills.
If you don't want that, don't make your game a job. Thaumcraft 2 had the research mechanic: grind this much with these things, and you get a reward: new things you can craft, new enchantments you can use, new branches of research you can explore. Grind smarter, and the rewards come more often, or just keep throwing stacks of cobble in until you can't use cobble any more. Railcraft has the coke oven, blast furnace, and water tank: spend time building these machines and cooking resources, and you get the rewards of better fuel, doubling your rail and cart output, making new things, and never having to build and power another @&%$ Buildcraft pump again.
Ultimately, you can only limit and incentivize; you can never dictate, unless you built the whole game experience and give the player only one option and one simple, "best" choice in each case.
tl'dr: I agree with the fellow arguing for more configurability. I don't care about someone else's server. I want to be able to choose the experience and environment on MY server, thank you. You should be able to choose YOURS. And if you dictate terms to me that I don't like, freedom of choice says I don't have to accept.
There. This post was long, but I hope you guys get something out of my distillation of years of MMO and game creation wisdom.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I dunno, ZK, that sounds pretty awesome..." "Well then, let's get awesome!"
The entire point of mods and modding in general is to extend the game in various ways that will allow more people to enjoy the game for longer.
Survival: Provide additional challenge for people who want it, remove some of the challenge for people who want an easier game, allow new or improved mechanics that eliminate or fix parts of the game that players don't enjoy.
Creative: Mods give builders tools and features that allow for easier use of plugins that heavily benefit creative gameplay (VoxelSniper, WorldEdit - there are GUIs available for both of these allowing players to avoid having to type out all their commands.) Creative mods also give players more capabilities and systems that allow for easier building and more diversity to their multiplayer servers so that creations can be more easily created and shown off without the tedium of certain tasks to do so.
Server-Client Interaction: Some mods allow you to take multiplayer gameplay to the next level by enabling client-server interaction in ways that was not originally coded into the game. Some of these take advantage of the custom packet that was recently added while others go above and beyond and completely rework certain systems to interact with/receive data from the server differently. A lot of great multiplayer servers would not be where they are today without allowing players freedom in creating mods.
Other: Many mods do other things such as simply adding fun or humorous little pieces to the game such as allowing players unique or more detailed skins. People also do some pretty impressive work on the game's look/performance with things such as Optifine and the integration of shaders in the game in mods like Water Shader.
You know what the really great thing is about these mods and by extension server plugins? You don't have to use any of them!!
- Don't like auto-crafting tables? Don't use the mod!
- You have a problem with a mod allowing you to create things that give you items or decrease the challenge of the game? Forget about them!
- Hell, if you want the game harder, go install a mod that makes it harder.
- Want ore to be less common so that you have a sense of accomplishment when you finally create your Diamond Pick? Install a mod that alters the world generation and makes diamond ridiculously rare.
- Have a problem with players flying around your multiplayer server unimpeded and ruining the vanilla feel? Install the NoCheat plugin on your server.
Your entire opinion seems to me to be based around the idea that we are being forced to use mods. A (bad?) analogy is if you were to point out the many things you don't like about a certain model of car and complain about how they have certain features, or feel differently than another car - don't like it? Buy a different car. The entire point I'm trying to get across is that many different mods exist with many different features and for many different purposes and you're not forced to use any of them if you don't want to, same as you're not forced to buy that car you really don't like.
Edit: To address your thread title, I think the "current state" of modding is that it is EXACTLY where it should be: anybody can rework the game provided they get a little bit of knowledge in java (or eventually in the use of the modding API,) and the game can be reworked in an infinite amount of different ways.
~snip~
Also is it me or is Ecu in a way complaining about the way people what to play Minecraft? If he doesn't like automation mods, he doesn't have to use them, but some people enjkoy them.
Yes, he is. Also, both sides of this debate have been stating their opinions as facts and seem to not realize that they are opinions.
Seems you're both missing the entire point. I actually love automation and am quite disappointed that every automation mod the community makes is geared to essentially make the player pointless. There isn't an alternative mod for me to use, because they all are falling into this rut of replacing the player with an automated system that does it more efficiently. In a game, especially in a multiplayer game where servers are essentially like mini MMOs, this ends up removing a lot of key aspects that encourage things like trade, roles, etc.
~snip~
With that said, I must say Im disappointed to see that this project appears to be going in exactly the opposite direction of where Id like to see the next big tech mod go. Even more complex and tedious instead of a cartoonish, simplified appoach which I think would be so much more fun.
Project Redux won't actually go ultra complex. My suggestion before was specifically aimed at RedPower as it does encourage a more complex gameplay style, and I felt the whole "replace a wire" design fit very well with it specifically. Maintenance of your machines could be as simple as replacing a piece of redstone that was destroyed, or replacing a broken gear that you visibly see broken. I am not shooting for ultra~complex maintenance, just a PLAYER time sink that cannot be done automatically.
~snip~
I think the biggest problem though is that you are looking for a way to make a single player game with its single player gameplay that has had multiplayer tacked on into a multiplayer game with community based multiplayer gameplay.
I think this is part of this that I disagree with the most. One of Minecraft's BIGGEST selling points is its multiplayer. People can essentially get hosting for their OWN MMO for as little as $5.00/$10.00 a month (depending on hosting needs) and adventure, build, and craft together. Mods ignoring multiplayer balance is a rather large issue (and in more then automation mods). So yes, I'm asking mod developers to take a step back and try think about how their mod will effect the multiplayer experience.
Its not all that impossible to make the mod work faster or with less maintenance if they are singleplayer.
I also want to add in reference to an earlier part of your post when you say that I shouldn't be complaining towards developers. You're wrong, its the developers of the modding community that I "have" to complain to. They created the current situation, and they are the best ones to actually make the change towards a more balanced multiplayer experience.
The cartoonish approach to repairing machines? it stops working, emits smoke and maybe even vibrates but it doesnt EXPLODE. And all you have to do is smack it with a wrench a few times (which will eat up the durabilty of the wrench) for a chance to repair it. A very low chance it will just break entirely and give you back some of what you used to create it in the first place. The better quality wrench, the better chance it has of repairing.
Thanks for this. People keep taking my comments to their extreme and don't actually take the time to think of various ways the concept can be implemented. Just having to use a wrench on it would indeed be a decent option. Of course, the key would be that a machine couldn't also be able to use a wrench on the machine to fix it. It would HAVE to be the PLAYER in order to actually make it balanced.
You seem to not have actually read the first few pages of this thread. I have actually been giving suggestions as to how to fix the issue and I'm not suggestion removing automation. It isn't a simple fix to make the machines require more resources to make because the act of automation removes those aspects of the game for the player and a primary balancing factor in a game like Minecraft is actually PLAYER TIME. So, the primary way to balance automation in a game like Minecraft is to require player interaction.
In a mod like BC with its simple machine design, simply having to use the wrench on a machine when it 'breaks down' (wearing out the wrench some) could be a great way to create this situation. In something with a bit more complexity like RedPower, perhaps requiring you to use the screwdriver to remove a panel on the machine, replacing a wire, and then putting the panel back on...might be more appropriate. The solution should be matched with the complexity of the mod in question, but whatever the solution is.. it needs to involve the player in a way that is not able to be automated by a machine.
I really do appreciate your insight, but I think you've missed the point of this thread entirely.
I'm not arguing against a style of play as I actually WANT automation in the game. What I'm suggesting is that developers take a step back and look at how automation affects the multiplayer environment (and indeed the singleplayer one as well). It takes the player out of a game, which is very much like writing a bot to play a game for you...aka you're no longer playing the game. It also does this in a way that is faster then the player could do it themselves (especially a RP quarry), meaning one person setting up the system can feed resources to an entire server fast enough that they probably never need more. Its this issue that I have problems with, as it ruins a lot of core aspects of Minecraft and eliminates quite a few aspects of multiplayer that would otherwise add a lot to the gameplay.
I'm not saying people enjoying the current situation are wrong for enjoying it. I'm saying the mod developers should consider how their mod affects multiplayer as it affects it in an overall negative way. Just because people enjoy the result, doesn't mean its a good way to design. People always fight against nerfs because they love power, but don't realize that restrictions also add to gameplay and can very often lead to better gameplay then before. This.. is one of those cases.
You sir sound either like a troll, someone who hasn't actually read the thread, or someone who is just missing the point...
There aren't alternatives. The entire modding community has based their automation mods after BuildCraft. They all fail to take into account how their mod affects the multiplayer experience and not a single automation mod I've seen has offered a PLAYER time sink as part of the design to limit the impact of automation.
You also miss the fact that I WANT TO USE THESE MODS. I love automation, but I don't want to see multiplayer turned into "who can exploit machines better." I want automation to complement gameplay, not play the game itself. This is the issue with current automation and the issue I wish to see fixed.
It's not even that hard of a fix, make the player use a gear on a machine every so often, or a wrench, etc. Whatever the fix is for a given mod is, the big thing is that said fix MUST require the PLAYER to actually accomplish the task. If that task can be completed by a machine, it doesn't solve the issue.
Project Redux won't actually go ultra complex. My suggestion before was specifically aimed at RedPower as it does encourage a more complex gameplay style, and I felt the whole "replace a wire" design fit very well with it specifically. Maintenance of your machines could be as simple as replacing a piece of redstone that was destroyed, or replacing a broken gear that you visibly see broken. I am not shooting for ultra~complex maintenance, just a PLAYER time sink that cannot be done automatically.
Thanks for this. People keep taking my comments to their extreme and don't actually take the time to think of various ways the concept can be implemented. Just having to use a wrench on it would indeed be a decent option. Of course, the key would be that a machine couldn't also be able to use a wrench on the machine to fix it. It would HAVE to be the PLAYER in order to actually make it balanced.
Hmm, good point. Maybe sneak+right click is an option, I dont think any machines can do that. Im going to read over this thread to get a better idea of where you are headed with this mod and suggest some more ideas. Im no minecraft modder but I have made mods for other games.
Your problem still seems to be 'peeps are having fun WRONG! wah!'. You've already nerfed your own mod into near-uselessness, reducing storage space and requiring Silk Tounch to move Ender Chests. And half of that nerf can be crushed into oblivia by using a mod that de-randomizes enchantments. Even if Thaumcraft doesn't bring that back, I can just find another mod to use. Anyhow, here's a solution that doesn't involve messing with other people's mods!
If you dislike the currrent automation mods, why not make your own? It'll be a damn sight easier than trying to convince everyone to desigin their mods around your specific vision of "TRUE MINECRAFT". No matter what you do, people are going to make and use Techical mods, and there isn't anything you, I or Notch can do about it. I want a factory that can work non-stop, you want one that sometimes breaks. I want Ender Chests to be useful, you want them to be nigh-unmovable with barely any space. You've got live with fact that people are going to find unintended uses for mods or combinations of mods, and you can't stop that. Peeps are going to sit it their houses while a quarry strips the world to bedrock and the materials are fully sorted and processed.
Also, you didn't reply to the main block of my previous post in relation to goals and lack of goals. I'd assume that means you agree, but then you wouldn't be crying about automation so much.
Your problem is that you're still not actually understanding things. I am not saying people are having fun wrong. I'm saying the current design for automation removes game mechanics that are essential for a full multiplayer experience in this type of game. I'm also not wrong, I've given actual facts as to how they do that and why it negatively impacts multiplayer.
As for making my own automation mod, that's the plan...basic automation and gear technology is part of Project Redux's design (though it might just become its own game rather then a mod). You seem stuck on having super high powered everything, rather then actually considering that being given the challenge of having to think outside the box is actually a good thing.
Need larger Ender Chests after Ender Storage nerf?...put some BC hoppers on top of it and have your system feed into those instead. That was so hard, right? As for part of my balance being broken if silk touch was easier to get, not true.. its still a entry barrier that limited moving Ender Chests easily. The size is the primary nerf, the silk touch is a minor extra designed to create a more defined separation between pouches and chests.
As for why I didn't specifically reply to your goals section, it's not relevant to the topic at hand. It was a suggestion to add KoL style ascension to the game, which has nothing to do with automation. The topic at hand is automation and how it impacts the game in a negative way in its current state, and how to fix it. I've given GOOD fixes that don't even require large alterations to the mods themselves.
Honestly, most of those that complain about my point of view seem to just be afraid of nerfs and want to stay super powerful without actually considering how it affects the game (even though I've actually given good examples). Its like people blindly ignore the consequences just because they are having fun without being open to the idea that they may STILL HAVE FUN after the mod is more balanced.
Ok, for some reason when I think of what kind of tech mod I would make, my mind always drifts back to an old playstation game Megaman Legends. For one it has a very similar to minecraft look to it, all blocky and colorful. it takes place in a semi-industrial world which is mostly wilderness. I guess some sort of cataclysm happened and theres high tech ruins scattered about which is the only place you can find weapon and armor upgrades-which are neat because you have (upgraded from the initial two somehow) three slots and can mix and match what ones you use.
So, what if instead of being able to craft that important tier 1 powercore required to charge machines with a handful of diamonds, it must instead be found in a ruined factory. Now at this point you could either pop the powercore into the generator and go out looking for another one OR you could stick it into the reverse engineering table which requires XP levels (which in this case simulates knowledge and intelligence), breaking the powercore and unlocking the recipe.
Now obviously what Im suggesting goes quite a bit further than just a tech mod, but in my opinion if you are going to introduce a massive new style of gameplay such as industry then you need to see the big picture. Minecraft isnt even difficult in the slightest on vanilla, its very much a casual game. Industry will only make it easier unless there are certain checks and balances in place especially when it comes to combat and exploration.
Oh and one more thing. By reverse engineering that bit of arcane knowlege that is a tier1 powercore, you have awoken robot sentinels that begin to spawn throughout the world. And how about this? the tier1 powercore is also a key that can open the gates to bigger factories. Factories are made of unbreakable blocks. The ultimate goal (minecraft with an actual goal!) would be to craft the highest tier powercore and unlock the mystery behind that ultimate gate.
I come from playing BTW. TFC and the big forge mods.
Given all the mods BTW has the best approach to technology and automation and TFC has the best approach to early game tech.
Why? Well in BTW automation isn't a one block solution even when something is automated it sill involves allot of play time to use.
TFC gives the player a need to explore and build and when you finally gain metal tools it's a rewarding experience. My only grip is that the randomness of minecraft tends to hate me allot.
IMO the major forge mods are designed to be played for 5 mins and accomplish things. There always comes a point where you gain enough resources that you don't need mining any longer. For me the things that fixed this is realistic ore gen. Making ores harder to find but rewarding the player for finding them.
I really want bronze tools to become important in IC2 right now getting a drill is to easy.
Ok, for some reason when I think of what kind of tech mod I would make, my mind always drifts back to an old playstation game Megaman Legends. For one it has a very similar to minecraft look to it, all blocky and colorful. it takes place in a semi-industrial world which is mostly wilderness. I guess some sort of cataclysm happened and theres high tech ruins scattered about which is the only place you can find weapon and armor upgrades-which are neat because you have (upgraded from the initial two somehow) three slots and can mix and match what ones you use.
So, what if instead of being able to craft that important tier 1 powercore required to charge machines with a handful of diamonds, it must instead be found in a ruined factory. Now at this point you could either pop the powercore into the generator and go out looking for another one OR you could stick it into the reverse engineering table which requires XP levels (which in this case simulates knowledge and intelligence), breaking the powercore and unlocking the recipe.
Now obviously what Im suggesting goes quite a bit further than just a tech mod, but in my opinion if you are going to introduce a massive new style of gameplay such as industry then you need to see the big picture. Minecraft isnt even difficult in the slightest on vanilla, its very much a casual game. Industry will only make it easier unless there are certain checks and balances in place especially when it comes to combat and exploration.
Oh and one more thing. By reverse engineering that bit of arcane knowlege that is a tier1 powercore, you have awoken robot sentinels that begin to spawn throughout the world. And how about this? the tier1 powercore is also a key that can open the gates to bigger factories. Factories are made of unbreakable blocks. The ultimate goal (minecraft with an actual goal!) would be to craft the highest tier powercore and unlock the mystery behind that ultimate gate.
This is a great idea for how to handle advanced technology in such a game. I love it. However, it still doesn't specifically handle the issue of automation. Automation in general must require player involvement (aka a player time sink) in order to restrict the effect of automation in a multiplayer environment. I just cannot see another way to solve the issues that automation causes.. except maybe making machines so very slow that they cannot do anything at a practical level.
Your idea does sound pretty awesome. I'll admit. I extra like the idea of conquering a task in an age letting you have one of a special power or specifically created special machine that represents the mod you conquered...but isn't powerful enough to ruin everything. Its a very neat idea.
As I said though, I still think the overall idea of automation in a game like Minecraft needs some form of PLAYER time sink. My idea for it would be maintenance based on the speed you try yo make the machine go (aka dump more power into it.. and it wears out faster). Some other method could be used as well.. like requiring a player to actually manually operate a machine for it to function, but have it function fast...that kind of thing. I think the maintenance is the better option as it allows machines to still be automatic, but limits how many a player can have active at once, in a way that feels a natural part of play.
Ok before I begin, I want to say that I generally don't play minecraft much anymore (modding is more fun) and never really got into using the "big autmation tech mods".
I was actually going to come into the opposite side of the configuration argument for a few technical reasons. Random options are fine, its when you get into enableing/disabling items/blocks that I thought there could be an issue.
But while reading through the topic and walking off to get a drink I actually thought of a way around it (just hear me out, the idea isn't very well thought through yet).
Basically instaed of disabling items/blocks at the item/block level, why not just disable it at the crafting level? Best part of this solution is that a mod could actually be created that is designed to run in forge's post initialisation method that scans the crafting recipies and removes any that produce the offending item. This means that server admins can prevent players from crafting the item (the item would still be able to be spawned by commands which i guess could be used for rewards).
Like I said the solution will only work for enabling/diabling items that the admins of servers think are too overpowered, and does not really address Ecu's original issue about automation being too overpowered. But I guess it is a solution that some people may want. If people think that it is a good idea I might code up an alpha up on the weekend.
Sure, this sounds good to me. I could see disabling at the config file block/item ID level might cause problems with crashes or compatibility. I don't really care how it is done as long we have the option to customize things to our liking.
I can see a server admin using an item or block that opens a GUI (the RP2 Configuration Tool or some such) and lets him enable or disable things. Maybe NEI/Craftguide would show that disabled item in the list with a circle and line overlaid on top to show it is banned/disabled to the players.
As for automation.. like it has been said above: By the time you even get to the automation part, you have already "won" as far as vanilla goes. If you want to get into the Nether to get the glowstone that most mods require then you need a diamond pick, the epitome of Vanilla tech, to get obsidian. Mods that automate things just extend that and give you a use for all those resources you already have.
I actually already whipped up a quick test mod. As a test I disabled the recipe for wooden swords and it worked fine. For configuration it just uses a very very basic config file where you list the ids of any items/blocks you want the recipies disabled for. The mod will then read this file and remove the recipies.
There is no GUI or anything, it will all have to be done through a text file. Hell the GUI likely wouldn't work anyway as it has to be done on server startup. There really also is no way of integration with other mods in the way it is currently set up. After I test more & release I would be willing to provide the "banned" list for other mods, but right now it is just essentially a quick dirty fix.
Just because you have reached the end of vanilla tech by the time you generally get automation, doesn't mean it should be overpowered. Honestly, none of the tech mods give you enough use for the resources you gain from automation. Automation creates a surplus of resources beyond what you need...and it takes the player out of the game completely.
This is MINECRAFT.... aka.. Mining... and Crafting. Automation tends to remove the need to do either...kind of completely removing the two core aspects of the game...
Three words: World of Warcraft. Or really, Massive Multiplayer Online. Every MMO has some incredible tedious things in it, heck, if you go back in time to when EverQuest was all the rage, that whole game was one exercise in tediousness. Yet people played it.
I can see Ecu's point, and also the points on the opposite end of the fence, however...
I think that Ecu has a better point. The automation removes the need for the player to do anything besides log in and sit there and do, well, not much of anything. You gain resources beyond what you would ever use, even if you were to go overboard and build a solid 100x100x100 cube of cobblestone, you'd still have more. You'd always have the best tools, the best armor, the best of everything - but for what? Building stuff? That's the point that Ecu is making; at that point in time, you might as well be playing in creative mode since the net effect (unlimited blocks) is the same.
Heck even in vanilla without mods, I have more string, spider eyes, feathers, flint, wood, redstone and slimeballs than I know what to do with, and all that was a matter of a few hours of work. Most of that time went into rigging all the farms in such a way that they work upside down since my base is almost at bedrock level, so instead of transporting bits up I need them down (easier but not always).
If I were to have automated that, I'd probably end up tossing half of it in my lava pool since I'd never ever use it. Heck, I've seen mods that let you set up an auto-killer on your mob farm, and it will even store the xp for you. Less than what you'd get if you killed things yourself, but still. It keeps the chunk loaded too so it's like, you log in, turn it on, log out, come back a few days later, and presto, you can now make 24 diamond picks and enchant them all.
I don't see the fun in that. Building the doohickeys, sure, but that only lasts so long.
As an aside, personally I consider some of these mods to be a pain in the neck for a server operator since they keep chunks loaded; not that it's a lot of memory, but if you've got half the map in memory purely because of chunk loaders that keep chunks around so they can tick, that's not something I'd really be happy with. The fact that things don't receive ticks in unloaded chunks has a reason, and a lot of mods throw this reason right out the window because otherwise they wouldn't work. Considering that on average 32 loaded chunks take up about 80Mb of memory, you're often looking at a few extra Gb just for the automated doohickeys. Add to that that both the vanilla minecraft server and bukkit are memory hungry pigs, and you're looking at the whole "yeah you need 32Gb ram on your server to run this" thing. (Which, to me, is utterly ridiculous).
So all in all, the whole focus on "let's automate everything until there's nothing left to automate" is detrimental to minecraft as a game, because you have now turned it from a game into, well, what is it really? A showcase of your ability to follow recipes and build machines? If the normal balance (for whatever value is considered normal) is broken, what you end up with is not even remotely fun to play.
Again, this is my opinion so feel free to agree, disagree or ignore it
This concept fits in super well with some of the ideas I was having for "multi-mods-craft": a proposed mod that would lets players start in a mostly vanilla-ish world and get the resources to open a portal to a separate age where various mods are enabled. You can't take any items with you to this mod age, so each time you do so you start from scratch, except that once you beat the mod age you gain a permanent player ability that you can take with you through these portals, so that you have a little bit more power in the main overworld, but also more starting power for creating another new mod age to travel to. Alternatively, beating a mod age with a single basic mod installed might unlock mod ages with other mods or combinations of mods. Also, if you wanted to, instead of giving players permanent player abilities (things they can do bare-handed, passive buffs, etc) you could make the reward item for beating a mod age be an exception to the general rule that you can't transfer items between ages, so that you would have a starting inventory on the next iteration like you mention happens on 'Kingdom of Loathing'
http://www.minecraft...technical-mods/
With that said, I must say Im disappointed to see that this project appears to be going in exactly the opposite direction of where Id like to see the next big tech mod go. Even more complex and tedious instead of a cartoonish, simplified appoach which I think would be so much more fun.
While I do agree with some automation being too easy I think your approach is a little too extreme. I think first and foremost Minecraft is about designing things. Sure you can say Minecraft is about gathering resources (mine) and about crafting items (craft) but those are only a means to an end. They are part of the journey and they add value to the journey but watching an item take 30 minutes to smelt/craft so that you can use it isn’t fun. Spending 30 minutes designing, planning out, and creating what you wanted to make is fun. And by creating I don’t mean watching a bar go across a screen I mean laying the blocks out and making it.
Let me use an example of the approach that you (and what I have also heard Slowpoke101 talk about during his streams): Let’s use the topic of automated resource gathering. What if a BC Quarry (which I think is OP by itself without the help of any synergies from other mods) instead requires a special crafting table in which you put all the ingredients in and it takes 1 in-game day to finish crafting. On top of that every in-game Minecraft day you have to go over to the Quarry and are forced to manually add a new stack of stone gears and it still requires the current power mechanics. Unless you are planning on make a mini game out of putting stone gears in the Quarry this is only a time sink and doesn’t add any measure of creativity or challenge to the game. Even if you do add a mini game it is going to have to be one hell of a mini game for people not to get tired of doing it after a thousand times. On the other hand you have to make the mining bore yourself and you spend 1 in-game day designing and placing the RP frames etc it is a much more fun experience. It is also a rewarding one because you step back and look at what you built not just something that took a crafting table a day to craft because in that situation only vein people are getting the reward of: “Look what I can afford and look how long I been on this server.”
I also think you are blaming the wrong people for the wrong things and therefore trying to get the wrong people to fix everything. You are blaming the authors because synergies that make the tech and automation mods too powerful together. Using logistics pipes with advanced machines is of course overpowered but this is not the fault of the either of the add-on mod authors. This is the fault of the user/server admin for installing both of these add-on mods together when they shouldn’t have. It is the users/servers admin fault for making themselves have a bad gameplay experience not the fault of Mod authors.
That being said blaming the user/server admin for liking only a couple of things in one mod and only wanting to enabling those has nothing to do with having a consistent experience with a mod. The whole point of having different servers is that there are different experiences to be had. The mod authors are at fault here for not allowing all items to be disabled or enable via a config file. And if people are too stupid to figure out how to properly set it up they will learn or not play.
(There can also be said something here about mods like Forestry that try to cater to two different mods. I can understand why Forestry added IC2 related items since Forestry wanted to become a standalone mod and since many people use IC2 it provides another way for IC2 users to produce BC energy besides peat engines.Obviously when both IC2 and BC are installed these caveats are going to cause it to be even more OP. This really just takes me back to needing to be able to disable features in the config file and making the user/server admin responsible for their own game experience.)
As for making tech and automation mods work together I think RP2 is coming the closet to achieving the best balance. The current problem with BC is that with IC2 it is OP. There is no cost to Sorting system besides the initial investment in infrastructure. With RP2 sorting systems require power to be supplied. I think RP2 power for sorting and magtubes are too cheap but the mechanic is there and it just goes back to having more config options being a better idea. In terms of IC2 EU power (since RP2 measurements are not as popular as a unit of measurement) what if each item you sort costs 1000 EU. Want to sort a stack of 64 items you need 64000 EU. Want to try and keep up with a frame bore that digs out a chunk at a time… good luck with that. That will give people the challenge to make more efficient bores, more efficient sorting systems, and bigger RP2 power plants. With this approach there is no need to have people keep whacking a wrench on a sorter every day or put gears in it or to even make an unreasonable amount of time to produce an item.
That is not to say that RP2 and IC2 aren’t OP together however that is mostly due to the ability of the macerator to double your ore. If you could disable macerators, watermills, and geothermal generators that would be a simple fix to make it much less OP. An even better solution would be if IC2 had config options to prevent its generators from receiving liquids through pipes/tubes and if the macerator didn’t have a 100% chance of doubling your ore. The best option would be if there was a quantum suite, drill, and chainsaw add-on for RP2 then I would completly drop IC2 and only have one major tech mod in my mods folder. That would also let servers only have to deal with 1 energy net and 1 item network, which I’m sure, would with help stability on larger servers.
I think the biggest problem though is that you are looking for a way to make a single player game with its single player gameplay that has had multiplayer tacked on into a multiplayer game with community based multiplayer gameplay.
Think about it. The End was added because people got nasty at Notch about Real Games having an End. Lots of players believe that "winning is the only thing", and thus play to win. If they don't have a defined win condition, they make their own, and typically it is: "The Mostest". They play in order to end their own enjoyment of the game! When they're bored with "winning" but not of the server/world they're on, they start to screw around and come up with ways to make new kinds of fun that don't necessarily jive with other peoples' ideas of fun.
Me, I'm playing a single-player world in 1.2.5 (still!), with several goals: Make a mass-fab, kill the Ender dragon, and explore Mystcraft reasonably fully. Now, I could have focused on killing Endermen and searching for a stronghold. I could have started that even before I had an IC2 drill, an emerald sword, and iron armor. I'm still searching for a Nether fortress (bleah, I want a better map down there), but that's just a function of time spent; finding one is eventually guaranteed if I search thoroughly and stick with it. But in the meantime, I have a mass fabricator and am learning UU matter recipes for later use. And I'm building a crane-style RP2 frame quarry using CC computers to control it and observe its positioning, so that my quarry will be self-sustaining and self-correcting once started. Heck, I figure I'll just stick a lever next to my control computer and use that to tell the thing whether or not to run! I'm discovering issues with my RP2/IC2 sorting/smelting system that require I use BC and possibly Logistics Pipes to fix, specifically because I'm forcing myself to fit nearly the entire system in funny-shaped, cramped quarters directly beneath my house, instead of digging a second basement or ignoring the size of my building's walls to make an area as big as I desire. I'm learning about blocks and mechanics I've never used before, like the RP2 buffer. And I'm having fun with all that, even though I have had to sit through the miserable tedium of macerating and smelting all my ores by hand up to this point (I got the auto-processing done today)!
Why am I doing all this stuff, and why am I telling you about it?
I was a member on the Mud-Dev mailing list for years, and one of the most basic understandings that everyone on that list shared and talked about is that different people have different ways to play. The initial paper on this observation was written by a man named Richard Bartle, who classified players after the four suits of a poker deck, but the common naming is this:
* Achievers, who like to build things and complete tasks
* Explorers, who find things and see new experiences
* Socializers, who are mostly there to hang out and do stuff with friends
* Killers, who want in-your-face activities and person-on-person challenge, and often turn to griefing if they don't get what they want
I'm not particularly driven to achievement or exploration. I want to socialize, mostly. I try to avoid combat, preferring instead to progress in mostly-safe activities. However, I'm also a designer of systems, and I love to make new ways to do things. I give myself new design challenges in every world, and in general, I meet every one that I can.
In a multiplayer setting, you are guaranteed to have more than one type of player on any given server, unless you filter extremely strictly. Note that on Pahicraft (if you follow any of the members' streams or YouTube channels), Direwolf20 likes to chat with his friends and build stuff; Soaryn also likes to hang out and build stuff; RichardG likes to play tricks and fight; while Player and several others have basically turned their Ages into big holes in the world with their gigantic quarries and created self-building, self-feeding, mass-fabricated high-energy solar power arrays. That's three of the four player types represented, with the possibility that explorer types are on the server but just not on my personal radar. And the filter for that server is basically "a very small group of friends that Pahimar knows, followed by some of their friends that got invited later on".
The most important thing you can do to have a fun experience, when you can choose your own experience, is to choose an experience that fits your playing style; in multiplayer situations, you should choose to play with people of reasonably like mind who are willing to accommodate your personal playing style even if theirs is different. It seems to me that there is no other way to have a good experience in a game. If you hate fighting games, it doesn't matter how good the fighting game is, you aren't likely to enjoy it. If you hate exploring, but the only way to get what you want is hunt for it across large areas of unknown (and mostly unmappable) territory, you're probably going to hate getting that thing. If the people you're playing with want to fight each other and you'd prefer to quietly build something nice for yourself, you're probably going to be griefed and hate it.
Ultimately, you will define for yourself the point at which there is "no point" playing the game. If you like the game and want to keep playing, know where that point is, and design your experiences to avoid it without denying your personal style of enjoyment. Even if you try, you have no actual means of dictating to other players how they should enjoy the game. Argue all you want, but people are different from each other, and this is a good thing, even if it means they won't all want to play a given game or use a given mod in the same way -- even if you intend for them to do it a certain way, and even if you limit as many other ways to do it as possible. Many will consider those limits a challenge to be overcome!
Provide options. Provide limits. Provide challenges inherent in your designs, but don't provide those challenges for the sake of grinding if you don't provide a reward! Differing play styles is the first problem in MMO design; the problem of grinding is the second, and people only do it if there's a sufficient reward. Otherwise, it's a Job, and Jobs Get Paid. They'll pay someone else to farm gold or reagents, or grind up their characters' levels and skills.
If you don't want that, don't make your game a job. Thaumcraft 2 had the research mechanic: grind this much with these things, and you get a reward: new things you can craft, new enchantments you can use, new branches of research you can explore. Grind smarter, and the rewards come more often, or just keep throwing stacks of cobble in until you can't use cobble any more. Railcraft has the coke oven, blast furnace, and water tank: spend time building these machines and cooking resources, and you get the rewards of better fuel, doubling your rail and cart output, making new things, and never having to build and power another @&%$ Buildcraft pump again.
Ultimately, you can only limit and incentivize; you can never dictate, unless you built the whole game experience and give the player only one option and one simple, "best" choice in each case.
tl'dr: I agree with the fellow arguing for more configurability. I don't care about someone else's server. I want to be able to choose the experience and environment on MY server, thank you. You should be able to choose YOURS. And if you dictate terms to me that I don't like, freedom of choice says I don't have to accept.
There. This post was long, but I hope you guys get something out of my distillation of years of MMO and game creation wisdom.
"Well then, let's get awesome!"
Survival: Provide additional challenge for people who want it, remove some of the challenge for people who want an easier game, allow new or improved mechanics that eliminate or fix parts of the game that players don't enjoy.
Creative: Mods give builders tools and features that allow for easier use of plugins that heavily benefit creative gameplay (VoxelSniper, WorldEdit - there are GUIs available for both of these allowing players to avoid having to type out all their commands.) Creative mods also give players more capabilities and systems that allow for easier building and more diversity to their multiplayer servers so that creations can be more easily created and shown off without the tedium of certain tasks to do so.
Server-Client Interaction: Some mods allow you to take multiplayer gameplay to the next level by enabling client-server interaction in ways that was not originally coded into the game. Some of these take advantage of the custom packet that was recently added while others go above and beyond and completely rework certain systems to interact with/receive data from the server differently. A lot of great multiplayer servers would not be where they are today without allowing players freedom in creating mods.
Other: Many mods do other things such as simply adding fun or humorous little pieces to the game such as allowing players unique or more detailed skins. People also do some pretty impressive work on the game's look/performance with things such as Optifine and the integration of shaders in the game in mods like Water Shader.
You know what the really great thing is about these mods and by extension server plugins? You don't have to use any of them!!
- Don't like auto-crafting tables? Don't use the mod!
- You have a problem with a mod allowing you to create things that give you items or decrease the challenge of the game? Forget about them!
- Hell, if you want the game harder, go install a mod that makes it harder.
- Want ore to be less common so that you have a sense of accomplishment when you finally create your Diamond Pick? Install a mod that alters the world generation and makes diamond ridiculously rare.
- Have a problem with players flying around your multiplayer server unimpeded and ruining the vanilla feel? Install the NoCheat plugin on your server.
Your entire opinion seems to me to be based around the idea that we are being forced to use mods. A (bad?) analogy is if you were to point out the many things you don't like about a certain model of car and complain about how they have certain features, or feel differently than another car - don't like it? Buy a different car. The entire point I'm trying to get across is that many different mods exist with many different features and for many different purposes and you're not forced to use any of them if you don't want to, same as you're not forced to buy that car you really don't like.
Edit: To address your thread title, I think the "current state" of modding is that it is EXACTLY where it should be: anybody can rework the game provided they get a little bit of knowledge in java (or eventually in the use of the modding API,) and the game can be reworked in an infinite amount of different ways.
Seems you're both missing the entire point. I actually love automation and am quite disappointed that every automation mod the community makes is geared to essentially make the player pointless. There isn't an alternative mod for me to use, because they all are falling into this rut of replacing the player with an automated system that does it more efficiently. In a game, especially in a multiplayer game where servers are essentially like mini MMOs, this ends up removing a lot of key aspects that encourage things like trade, roles, etc.
Project Redux won't actually go ultra complex. My suggestion before was specifically aimed at RedPower as it does encourage a more complex gameplay style, and I felt the whole "replace a wire" design fit very well with it specifically. Maintenance of your machines could be as simple as replacing a piece of redstone that was destroyed, or replacing a broken gear that you visibly see broken. I am not shooting for ultra~complex maintenance, just a PLAYER time sink that cannot be done automatically.
I think this is part of this that I disagree with the most. One of Minecraft's BIGGEST selling points is its multiplayer. People can essentially get hosting for their OWN MMO for as little as $5.00/$10.00 a month (depending on hosting needs) and adventure, build, and craft together. Mods ignoring multiplayer balance is a rather large issue (and in more then automation mods). So yes, I'm asking mod developers to take a step back and try think about how their mod will effect the multiplayer experience.
Its not all that impossible to make the mod work faster or with less maintenance if they are singleplayer.
I also want to add in reference to an earlier part of your post when you say that I shouldn't be complaining towards developers. You're wrong, its the developers of the modding community that I "have" to complain to. They created the current situation, and they are the best ones to actually make the change towards a more balanced multiplayer experience.
Thanks for this. People keep taking my comments to their extreme and don't actually take the time to think of various ways the concept can be implemented. Just having to use a wrench on it would indeed be a decent option. Of course, the key would be that a machine couldn't also be able to use a wrench on the machine to fix it. It would HAVE to be the PLAYER in order to actually make it balanced.
You seem to not have actually read the first few pages of this thread. I have actually been giving suggestions as to how to fix the issue and I'm not suggestion removing automation. It isn't a simple fix to make the machines require more resources to make because the act of automation removes those aspects of the game for the player and a primary balancing factor in a game like Minecraft is actually PLAYER TIME. So, the primary way to balance automation in a game like Minecraft is to require player interaction.
In a mod like BC with its simple machine design, simply having to use the wrench on a machine when it 'breaks down' (wearing out the wrench some) could be a great way to create this situation. In something with a bit more complexity like RedPower, perhaps requiring you to use the screwdriver to remove a panel on the machine, replacing a wire, and then putting the panel back on...might be more appropriate. The solution should be matched with the complexity of the mod in question, but whatever the solution is.. it needs to involve the player in a way that is not able to be automated by a machine.
I really do appreciate your insight, but I think you've missed the point of this thread entirely.
I'm not arguing against a style of play as I actually WANT automation in the game. What I'm suggesting is that developers take a step back and look at how automation affects the multiplayer environment (and indeed the singleplayer one as well). It takes the player out of a game, which is very much like writing a bot to play a game for you...aka you're no longer playing the game. It also does this in a way that is faster then the player could do it themselves (especially a RP quarry), meaning one person setting up the system can feed resources to an entire server fast enough that they probably never need more. Its this issue that I have problems with, as it ruins a lot of core aspects of Minecraft and eliminates quite a few aspects of multiplayer that would otherwise add a lot to the gameplay.
I'm not saying people enjoying the current situation are wrong for enjoying it. I'm saying the mod developers should consider how their mod affects multiplayer as it affects it in an overall negative way. Just because people enjoy the result, doesn't mean its a good way to design. People always fight against nerfs because they love power, but don't realize that restrictions also add to gameplay and can very often lead to better gameplay then before. This.. is one of those cases.
You sir sound either like a troll, someone who hasn't actually read the thread, or someone who is just missing the point...
There aren't alternatives. The entire modding community has based their automation mods after BuildCraft. They all fail to take into account how their mod affects the multiplayer experience and not a single automation mod I've seen has offered a PLAYER time sink as part of the design to limit the impact of automation.
You also miss the fact that I WANT TO USE THESE MODS. I love automation, but I don't want to see multiplayer turned into "who can exploit machines better." I want automation to complement gameplay, not play the game itself. This is the issue with current automation and the issue I wish to see fixed.
It's not even that hard of a fix, make the player use a gear on a machine every so often, or a wrench, etc. Whatever the fix is for a given mod is, the big thing is that said fix MUST require the PLAYER to actually accomplish the task. If that task can be completed by a machine, it doesn't solve the issue.
Hmm, good point. Maybe sneak+right click is an option, I dont think any machines can do that. Im going to read over this thread to get a better idea of where you are headed with this mod and suggest some more ideas. Im no minecraft modder but I have made mods for other games.
Your problem is that you're still not actually understanding things. I am not saying people are having fun wrong. I'm saying the current design for automation removes game mechanics that are essential for a full multiplayer experience in this type of game. I'm also not wrong, I've given actual facts as to how they do that and why it negatively impacts multiplayer.
As for making my own automation mod, that's the plan...basic automation and gear technology is part of Project Redux's design (though it might just become its own game rather then a mod). You seem stuck on having super high powered everything, rather then actually considering that being given the challenge of having to think outside the box is actually a good thing.
Need larger Ender Chests after Ender Storage nerf?...put some BC hoppers on top of it and have your system feed into those instead. That was so hard, right? As for part of my balance being broken if silk touch was easier to get, not true.. its still a entry barrier that limited moving Ender Chests easily. The size is the primary nerf, the silk touch is a minor extra designed to create a more defined separation between pouches and chests.
As for why I didn't specifically reply to your goals section, it's not relevant to the topic at hand. It was a suggestion to add KoL style ascension to the game, which has nothing to do with automation. The topic at hand is automation and how it impacts the game in a negative way in its current state, and how to fix it. I've given GOOD fixes that don't even require large alterations to the mods themselves.
Honestly, most of those that complain about my point of view seem to just be afraid of nerfs and want to stay super powerful without actually considering how it affects the game (even though I've actually given good examples). Its like people blindly ignore the consequences just because they are having fun without being open to the idea that they may STILL HAVE FUN after the mod is more balanced.
So, what if instead of being able to craft that important tier 1 powercore required to charge machines with a handful of diamonds, it must instead be found in a ruined factory. Now at this point you could either pop the powercore into the generator and go out looking for another one OR you could stick it into the reverse engineering table which requires XP levels (which in this case simulates knowledge and intelligence), breaking the powercore and unlocking the recipe.
Now obviously what Im suggesting goes quite a bit further than just a tech mod, but in my opinion if you are going to introduce a massive new style of gameplay such as industry then you need to see the big picture. Minecraft isnt even difficult in the slightest on vanilla, its very much a casual game. Industry will only make it easier unless there are certain checks and balances in place especially when it comes to combat and exploration.
Oh and one more thing. By reverse engineering that bit of arcane knowlege that is a tier1 powercore, you have awoken robot sentinels that begin to spawn throughout the world. And how about this? the tier1 powercore is also a key that can open the gates to bigger factories. Factories are made of unbreakable blocks. The ultimate goal (minecraft with an actual goal!) would be to craft the highest tier powercore and unlock the mystery behind that ultimate gate.
Given all the mods BTW has the best approach to technology and automation and TFC has the best approach to early game tech.
Why? Well in BTW automation isn't a one block solution even when something is automated it sill involves allot of play time to use.
TFC gives the player a need to explore and build and when you finally gain metal tools it's a rewarding experience. My only grip is that the randomness of minecraft tends to hate me allot.
IMO the major forge mods are designed to be played for 5 mins and accomplish things. There always comes a point where you gain enough resources that you don't need mining any longer. For me the things that fixed this is realistic ore gen. Making ores harder to find but rewarding the player for finding them.
I really want bronze tools to become important in IC2 right now getting a drill is to easy.
This is a great idea for how to handle advanced technology in such a game. I love it. However, it still doesn't specifically handle the issue of automation. Automation in general must require player involvement (aka a player time sink) in order to restrict the effect of automation in a multiplayer environment. I just cannot see another way to solve the issues that automation causes.. except maybe making machines so very slow that they cannot do anything at a practical level.