There are two equally good points here that are somewhat identical in that if either one is accepted as the best and carried through to its logical conclusion then the game will basically be ruined.
Point one: Automation is overpowered. End game automation does turn the game into a slightly boring what-is-the-point-i-already-have-everything simulation. The solution, make the game mechanics more tedious involved. That line of thought carried far enough results in someone sitting in one spot babysitting a machine until it has completed its task and then moving on to the next set of machinery, and waiting for it to finish. Rinse and repeat.
Point two: Automation is the point of the game. I want to have unrestricted access to automation and if i want i should be able to build a machine to do everything for me!! Carry this line of thought to its logical conclusion and eventually you're just sitting there watching your machines work and not participating.
In either case the game ends up being incredibly boring, repetitive, and not fun. Personally I think that I would always prefer to have more automation options than less. In the case of EE2, in general, I would usually limit myself to a certain set of rules to allow the game to be more enjoyable for a longer period (no transmutations, etc).
Unfortunately the fact remains that if you grab a diamond pick and mine for long enough eventually the game is going to turn into creative mode no matter what you do. I think that in quite a few cases modders are really doing a great job balancing their mods so that you can go crazy with your automation without ruining the game instantly. Mods such as EE3, Forestry with its slower pace, and the recent changes to nuclear power in IC2, etc are a good example of instances where automation is almost certainly a requirement for getting the full enjoyment out of a mod, but balanced enough so that utilizing the mod isn't going to have a negative impact on your enjoyment (at least in the short-mid term anyway).
I think that if we can maintain a balance between the complexity of automation available, and the progression of the gameplay through a particular mod utilizing said automation, that will probably yield the most fun over the long term.
There are two equally good points here that are somewhat identical in that if either one is accepted as the best and carried through to its logical conclusion then the game will basically be ruined.
Point one: Automation is overpowered. End game automation does turn the game into a slightly boring what-is-the-point-i-already-have-everything simulation. The solution, make the game mechanics more tedious involved. That line of thought carried far enough results in someone sitting in one spot babysitting a machine until it has completed its task and then moving on to the next set of machinery, and waiting for it to finish. Rinse and repeat.
Point two: Automation is the point of the game. I want to have unrestricted access to automation and if i want i should be able to build a machine to do everything for me!! Carry this line of thought to its logical conclusion and eventually you're just sitting there watching your machines work and not participating.
In either case the game ends up being incredibly boring, repetitive, and not fun. Personally I think that I would always prefer to have more automation options than less. In the case of EE2, in general, I would usually limit myself to a certain set of rules to allow the game to be more enjoyable for a longer period (no transmutations, etc).
Unfortunately the fact remains that if you grab a diamond pick and mine for long enough eventually the game is going to turn into creative mode no matter what you do. I think that in quite a few cases modders are really doing a great job balancing their mods so that you can go crazy with your automation without ruining the game instantly. Mods such as EE3, Forestry with its slower pace, and the recent changes to nuclear power in IC2, etc are a good example of instances where automation is almost certainly a requirement for getting the full enjoyment out of a mod, but balanced enough so that utilizing the mod isn't going to have a negative impact on your enjoyment (at least in the short-mid term anyway).
I think that if we can maintain a balance between the complexity of automation available, and the progression of the gameplay through a particular mod utilizing said automation, that will probably yield the most fun over the long term.
If you've actually read my posts, you'd see that I think along a similar lines (except thinking that automation is needed in order to utilize the mods). I don't want maintenance to be so restrictive that you cannot leave the machine, I want maintenance such that a machine, once built, still requires some player interaction to maintain function. Its actually my detractors that keep making it seem like I want to make machines require constant babysitting.
Honestly, the main issue I see with automation is that it does stuff for you so fast that it removes a lot of the core mechanics of the game...food? automated bread machine. mining? quarry. crafting? logistic pipes and autocrafting table. Hey, look... two of the primary core gameplay mechanics Mining and Crafting... end up made pointless... how is that even Minecraft anymore?
Automation needs to be toned down, so that the primary benefit of automation isn't speed, its purely the fact that it does a task for you. A water pump would pump water slowly from one point to another, saving you from doing it yourself with buckets. A quarry would mine for you, but slowly, letting you focus on other things but not outpacing the other guy that likes mining and chose to do that on the server instead. If automation mods aren't toned down...we'll continue to lose out on the community that can form when people are encouraged to trade, work together, etc.
I'm not saying that I don't understand the other side either. I understand you want to be able to just build more machines and have the challenge of figuring out how to best do that.. but honestly if you want to remove the core gameplay components of mining, crafting, eating, etc... make a new game mode where those don't matter.. and start with machines. Because essentially you're playing creative mode+... and that just isn't survival mode anymore.
Mining resources yourself: grind.
Building a frame quarry: grind.
Just a different kind of grind. I'm a programmer by day, and as such I love automation - but I play vanilla Minecraft, mostly because mods that allow you to build interesting mechanical doohickeys are just not challenging, at all.
Sure, building, say, a tunnel borer from scratch might be, but if you wanted that tunnel bored for you, you'd probably be faster strapping some TNT to a mountain and blowing a path through. Not as pretty, but effective.
Not saying mods don't have their place, but if you say that you use mods to avoid the grind, you might want to reconsider your argument since you're just replacing one grind with another - just that the other one might be packaged in shinier wrapping paper, or comes with a free paper umbrella.
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Personally getting the feeling you've been soured so much on the idea, legit reasons for said automation are being completely ignored and you're over-exaggerating the impact of them. On my server, I have BC, IC2, Redpower and Forestry, all these so called devil automation mods.. and in no way, shape, or form do ANY of my players have infinite resources or creative mode ability. They don't build little 8x8 houses with 4 chests and call it a day, thus having unlimited resources.
They use the resources they gain to make the far, far more expensive items from the mods to speed up their production, so they can make the even higher tier of items, so they can start building items on a larger scale, yet at no point do they ever have 'unlimited' resources. There are three core points to Minecraft: Mining, Crafting, Building, with Crafting being making the parts, Building being making buildings or the likes. These mods require us to go down and mine by hand to get resources just like Vanilla. Infact, in order to get the quarries and the likes, it requires you to get the materials that would deem 'end game' for vanilla mindcraft, AKA you've reached the peak, there's no further to go.
Once you gain the quarry, you need to make engines, and keep it fueled. That early into the game, you won't have 20 combustion engines making it scream in speed, you have a few steam ones perhaps, which even with chunk loading, will take near an hour to get to bedrock. In that time, I could dig up 10x the amount of useful resources by hand, thus making it less efficient. The ONLY time the machines outpace the player, is when the player is already done with his or her progression, allowing them to focus on new projects while still having to move their quarries, sort their materials, so on so fourth.
I think your major problem is you're looking at all of the mods put together to make them the absolute most automation possible, thus damning all of them in the process. That's akin to me saying your idea for less to no automation is stupid, because vanilla minecraft allows you to turn on creative mode, thus negating the need for mining entirely. One does not make the other bad, it's the combination. If I JUST have IC2, there's a lot of hand-work I have to do with those machines. If I JUST have redpower, there's a crapton of tweaking and adjusting I have to do to get something even remotely automated. If I JUST have buildcraft, there's a lot of fuel juggling for my engines, hunting for oil, refining, always a finite amount of resources to keep my automation going.
To say these mods are 'just like putting you into sandbox or creative mode' is beyond ignorant, and you lose a LOT of your footing on the topic, as it shows your overall bias and lack of actually thinking things through. Every other line you make is about player economy, rather than actual balance or fun, leading to the conclusion that what YOU see Minecraft as is a hunter/gatherer sim where those who farm may trade with those who do not do as much. That is one of many, many, MANY ways of playing minecraft that do not include any form of creative/sandbox mode.
You are free to do what you want with your mod, just as players are free to no longer use it if it causes more trouble than it's worth. People don't want 'lolezmoad', some people just don't want to spend hours holding down their right mouse button. They want to go through an overly complicated crafting and balancing act to make a machine and actually see their creation come to life, see all those bells and whistles go off to a fully functional design.
Make it so that the fun, technical, potentially OP mods like RedPower, IndustrialCraft, Buildcraft, Forestry, and Equivalent Exchange are disabled in the main overworld. Instead, let there be a mod similar to Mystcraft that lets you travel to other dimensions/ages. Unlike Mystcraft, however, make it so that you can't take any items with you at all, nor can you bring any items back. Whatever mods you think are fun to play can be active when you visit these other dimensions, so a player who creates one of these ages and travels there can go nuts building OP quarries, etc. Note that any form of trans-dimension transport of items will also be disabled.
Now for the kicker of my idea. Add a special dungeon to each of these ages that only generates in one place, similar to how only three strongholds generate in the overworld. In this dungeon, house a unique item that can be aquired after defeating the dungeon's boss monster, which will have power and difficulty requiring the use of powerful end game type mod items to defeat. Using this item assigns a job/ class to the player him/herself. Being an aspect of the player, possesion of this job is the only thing that can be brought back to the main overworld.
Back in the main overworld, new players can join existing players as useful members of society, since possesion of one of the various jobs available does not make the experienced players overpowered relative to the newcomers. Newcomers can still usefully participate in mining, farming, building, etc to grow the server. If a newcomer wants whatever advantages come with having a job/ class, however, they would need to travel to one of the ages where they can use technical mods to achieve the goal of gaining a job/ class. Even if they don't care to seek out the dungeon they would need to defeat to get a new job/ class they might want to go to one of these ages just to experience the modded gameplay and build something awesome to show their friends, who can also travel from the overworld to their age.
Multiple players can embark together on the process of taming a new world if they want, but each new world only provides the job/ class upgrade to one player. The nature of these worlds can optionally depend on the job you are trying to get, with a thematically appropriate dungeon and monster. Also I can envision there being differently powered versions of the worlds available, so that for example, if you want to become a level 1 healer, the boss to defeat is not as hard as the boss to become a level 8 healer. Another possibility is for the benefits to the player to be mix-and-match-able abilities and not just a single class. Maybe a main-class/ sub-class type system, or a Final Fantasy Tactics type setup, I don't know. Doing something like this would give a player who has already "beaten the system" in one of the ages to get the reward involved an incentive to do it again: starting a new world from scratch, giving them an opportunity to change up the way they do things - or not, depending on their preferences. The end goal being the same - get tons of resources somehow, so you can craft powerful end game stuff and go beat the monster.
If there are different levels of the jobs it is important that they be kept not OP, and that the functions provided mesh well with the economy, purpose, and structure of the overworld server society.
The main thing I like about my idea is the fact that it allows a single, growing community to experience the initial, setting-up aspect of modded minecraft many times - building new worlds from scratch, to gain benefits in the main world that are appropriate, not overpowered. It basically sandboxes the overpoweredness, so that new players can join the fun at a similar level to everybody else.
First point, do your players actually know how to use the mods together? You can utilize Buildcraft with IC2 to essentially make power pointless. If you combine that with Forestry Electric engines, you can essentially have massive amounts of cheap power by building your matter generator in the Nether. The resources gained by said machine could be funneled back into expanding it until you're producing UU matter faster then you'll reasonably use it... or just immediately turning it into diamond blocks via an automated process (or Redmatter via EE). I've seen things like this done on servers multiple times.. and only requiring a day or two of setup.
Sure, I'll agree with you... if mods are used on their own they are a lot more balanced. That's because they are in an isolated environment where the power of another mod isn't affecting it. However, said mods are designed to be compatible with others and in many cases even have specific implementations to make the mod's features compatible (such as Forestry, IC, and BC). In addition, the general community uses the mods together as well. So why is it hard to expect mods to at least try and be balanced against each other? Especially when said mods specifically interact with either other intentionally.
As for my comments about turning the game into creative mode... it is a pretty valid statement. What features does creative mode offer? Flying?... IC2 (or EE2, or TC2). Invincibility?... IC2 (nearly anyways, or EE2). Infinite resources?... RP/BC Quarries (or BC/IC Nether UU generators, or EE2+BC/RP). Fast block breaking?.. TC2 (or IC2). So yes.. the combination of mods generally does turn the game into creative mod. The speed at which it can be done is based on how well you understand the interactions between the mods and how lucky you get when you initially search for resources. In the end though, its only a matter of time.
What is the major cause of this issue? Automation. Specifically fast automation that can accomplish mining for you, processing those materials, and then crafting them into your end machine blocks (and even placing them potentially). This happens fast enough that the player couldn't generally do the whole process themselves and hope to keep up...and once setup.. it requires no maintenance..which means that on a server.. you can work together to get the infinite material generator going.. and then everyone just player psuedo creative mode... if that's what you want to do.. then why not just play creative mode?
I actually disagree, something that is tedious can actually add a time sink, difficulty, and be enjoyable if it is done in such a way that it is immersive and fun. If you actually visually see the reaction of a gear breaking and slowing down a machine after it gets worn and the entire machine slows down/stops as a result..and then the entire thing wind back up and start functioning again when you replace it.. it can be a lot of fun. It has to be done well to be fun though, and that's what I'm asking to be done...
That's a great method to work with the existing power of the current mods. However, what reason would people have to goto the main world when they can hang out in their own world with all the power they have? Honestly, I see something like this being fun.. but more of a bandage then a solution to the problem. The problem is that the current power of automation breaks other mods it's combined with...it needs to be toned down a bit...but in a way that remains fun to play. I think that a good use of maintenance and a reduction in speed would be a good step towards this goal.
Yea, you're sorta just proving the point I was making. These mods are their own mods. They can't be made with 'Ok so here's stuff, but I'm not providing you with means of powering it, you need another guy's mod to do that'. They add in some things to interact with, but not a single one adds a feature that is designed to a specific state of improving the other mods in a means those mods on their own cannot do. Forestry engines provide the same power as the engines that come with BC. Electrical engines are horrid in the amount of power they use and if you have that much IC power gen already, you're far along the tech path anyway.
If all of these mods were one thing and designed to ONLY be ran with eachother, sure, they're a bit much. I also see you using EE and TC in your examples, which further proves you don't know what you're talking about. Both mod makers have said they agree it's over the top, and both are making ground-up changes, pretty much rendering that argument pointless. You keep using little examples of 'Well it's SORTA like creative mode, therefor it pretty much is', when you can take literally anything from creative mode with 0 effort, 0 work, 0 time spent, 0 mining, 0 crafting.. Please don't make such an over the top comparison if you want to be taken seriously.
What's next? NEI is a terrible game breaking mod because even though you can check recipes, see item IDs for easier debugging, and have everything you may need at your fingertips, it allows you to go creative mode and give you things, therefor it ruins the game? If you use a mod with the pure intention of destroying progressing, you're going to do it no matter what.
Yea, you're sorta just proving the point I was making. These mods are their own mods. They can't be made with 'Ok so here's stuff, but I'm not providing you with means of powering it, you need another guy's mod to do that'. They add in some things to interact with, but not a single one adds a feature that is designed to a specific state of improving the other mods in a means those mods on their own cannot do. Forestry engines provide the same power as the engines that come with BC. Electrical engines are horrid in the amount of power they use and if you have that much IC power gen already, you're far along the tech path anyway.
If all of these mods were one thing and designed to ONLY be ran with eachother, sure, they're a bit much. I also see you using EE and TC in your examples, which further proves you don't know what you're talking about. Both mod makers have said they agree it's over the top, and both are making ground-up changes, pretty much rendering that argument pointless. You keep using little examples of 'Well it's SORTA like creative mode, therefor it pretty much is', when you can take literally anything from creative mode with 0 effort, 0 work, 0 time spent, 0 mining, 0 crafting.. Please don't make such an over the top comparison if you want to be taken seriously.
What's next? NEI is a terrible game breaking mod because even though you can check recipes, see item IDs for easier debugging, and have everything you may need at your fingertips, it allows you to go creative mode and give you things, therefor it ruins the game? If you use a mod with the pure intention of destroying progressing, you're going to do it no matter what.
You are taking everything I say and going quite overboard with it.. my general statement is correct.. you essentially build yourself into creative mode with the collection of mods. Did I once say it takes zero effort to get there? No!... In fact, I specifically said it takes a day or two. After that day or two.. you can basically build whatever you want with no resource cost, while being able to fly, and break most blocks rather fast.. quite a bit like creative mode.
As for mods allowing another mod to do something it couldn't before.. lets see... powering a IC2 geothermal generator by pumping lava into it.. that's something you can do with IC2 alone. Powering BC machines with the easier to generate and store IC2 power.. oh yeah.. Forestry does that (and empowers both BC and IC because of it). In fact, nearly all the big tech~ish mods have specific interaction between each other in some way... almost as if they are expected to be played together. I wonder if that might have anything to do with many of their authors actually playing together?... hrm... m...a...y...b...e.
I'm not bashing the mods. I'm not saying they are bad or their authors are bad (in fact, I consider many of said authors friends). What I am saying is that I think the automation mods (BC/RP being the primary ones right now) could use some nerfing or redesign to help balance them against other mods, especially with multiplayer in mind. Perhaps machines could work faster on single player and much slower on multiplayer to help compensate some. Add in a bit of maintenance like oiling, or gear replacing.. and wala.. more balanced, requiring a bit of manual interaction, and all around more balanced.
That's a great method to work with the existing power of the current mods. However, what reason would people have to goto the main world when they can hang out in their own world with all the power they have? Honestly, I see something like this being fun.. but more of a bandage then a solution to the problem. The problem is that the current power of automation breaks other mods it's combined with...it needs to be toned down a bit...but in a way that remains fun to play. I think that a good use of maintenance and a reduction in speed would be a good step towards this goal.
The people who would choose to hang out in their own world where they have massive power are presumably the same people who would disagree with you about the current state of mods being un-fun. My point is that if it were possible to build a server the way I described, both types of players would be accomodated. The way I see it, to have fun playing a game you need to have a goal. A very compelling goal in a multi-player sandbox game is to gain real world prestige with other players - to be someone who other people look up to.
In minecraft, there are at least three different kinds of accomplishments that can inspire awe in other players.
One, non-technical builds that are creative, artistic or massive. These are the sorts of things that people who enjoy creative mode enjoy building, and one can be impressed viewing their work. In our theoretical server, these folks can have fun in a "mod age" having mastered the mods in whatever fashion - the point being that they have achieved the equilavent of creative mode so they can get to work. These folks can leave signs in the overworld pointing visitors to their creations, so that people can go see them.
Two, technical builds where the point is the complexity or engineering of the machine - not the result in terms of what resources you get out of it, but the marvel of engineering itself. People who enjoy watching Dire's videos might get a kick out of visiting the age of a player who is good at this sort of thing and be impressed by the design.
Third, builds whether technical or not, that were accomplished in a vanilla-like setting, where the appreciation of the impressiveness of the build is enhanced by the understanding that everything was done 'legit'. If you see a castle on an unmodded vanilla server the assumption is that it was built by hand, with hand-mined blocks, etc, and knowing that this is the case elevates the sense of awe. Anyone who wants to get this kind of prestige needs to build, mine, farm, etc in the main overworld - and there are players who will want to do that.
There is another type of player who doesn't care what anyone else thinks, and wants to live in the process of the gameplay. This player might care about the community or about the economy - the metagame aspects of minecraft. Such a player would also be likely to spend his or her time in the overworld, helping newcomers find a place and a way to contribute to the overworld community. The thing I like about my idea is that playing through the modded minecraft experience once or twice can help such a player have new ways to contribute.
The other thing about my idea that makes me think it has potential is that the overworld experience does not have to be completely mod-free. If you invent a redux type mod, someone could set up a server where the overworld uses your mod, but where players have access to other mods by going to the other ages.
So strange, as if I hit creative mode, and I want a new frame moter, I go to the item list, I click it, it's mine. If I want one without creative mode, with all of these mods, I have to of gathered, smelted, and sorted the items required, which a quarry digs far slower than I'm able to consume if I'm rapid building. I need to make each piece one by one, combine them into sub pieces, and then continue to put those subpieces together for the final piece, taking several hours of automation and several steps of hand crafting as well unless you have a pre-setup of every part.
Again, stop comparing them to creative mode if you don't want crazy and over the top claims made in return.
So strange, as if I hit creative mode, and I want a new frame moter, I go to the item list, I click it, it's mine. If I want one without creative mode, with all of these mods, I have to of gathered, smelted, and sorted the items required, which a quarry digs far slower than I'm able to consume if I'm rapid building. I need to make each piece one by one, combine them into sub pieces, and then continue to put those subpieces together for the final piece, taking several hours of automation and several steps of hand crafting as well unless you have a pre-setup of every part.
Again, stop comparing them to creative mode if you don't want crazy and over the top claims made in return.
You keep putting words in my mouth.. I never once said it was instant. I said that within 2 days (48 hours), its very possible to build a system that will generate massive amounts of UU matter, route it automatically into some form of autocrafting (computercraft, logistics, straight autocrafters, tube stuff, w/e) to build your machines. Is it as instant as NEI or creative, no.. but once its setup and running you can very easily produce enough surplus of machines that you essentially have all you need at any given time. Is it an instant setup? No. Does it resemble being able to have all you need when you need it a lot like creative mode? Yes.
I'm not making over the top comparisons. I'm making accurate comparisons based on experience in using many of these mods quite extensively myself. I've built the nether UU matter machine. I have built logistics crafting lines. It's not that hard to understand what would happen if you route nearly infinite and fast generating UU into a logistics~like crafting line and having it keep yourself stocked with machines and other primary materials. Maybe I wouldn't be able to stockpile EVERY resource within 48 hours.. but I could replicate enough. Given a full weeks time, I could probably have my machine producing everything.. I could also probably use computercraft to have turtles continually expand it forever.. talk about taking the player out of the game.. lol.
Don't get me wrong, I love your idea. I think it would be a great way to setup a server using the mods as they are currently. However, I don't think it solves the underlying issues themselves. Automation in a game like Minecraft is just a really powerful mechanic that needs to be kept in check. Currently, there are not enough checks and balances in the automation mods.
Your idea is a great way to create a good community with the existing mods. I would love to play on such a server if someone was to put it together, though I do think there is still the issue of being able to eventually get enough people together in the main world that they build the horrible matter generation machine with autocrafting.. and essentially makes it all pointless. Since none of the major machines have actual player~required maintenance, once one of these exists, it can run forever producing endless machines for other people to do the same thing.. and well.. no more economy.
So what you're saying is that even though these items have legit uses, and when not combining them all to one giant super-producer they are in and of themselves useful, they should destroy their overall functionality so when combined, they're not bad? Because if so then clearly you don't have the willpower to not install the mods you seem to dislike. If not the functionality, then what? Automated gathering like you mentioned?
I bet you five bucks if you sat me down next to someone else and both of us had an iron pickaxe to start, I went digging underground and he did the same in order to start working on a quarry, and we both worked the same amount of time, can pretty much promise you I'll end the day with more useful resources in the end, as he had to use several of his more expensive materials to get there, and I would have far less extra dirt and stone to have to deal with. After five days of him making 10 quarries? Sure, he'll outdo me. If they worked any slower than they do now? Wouldn't be worth it.
I'm trying to show you that in your one, absolute using every means and every mod out there at their most automated state that you CHOSE to get to, yet have not offered on how they could change them without damaging the mod when it's all on it's own for it's original purpose.. maybe stop saying it needs a change and instead just say that for your own personal play style, it doesn't fit.
So what you're saying is that even though these items have legit uses, and when not combining them all to one giant super-producer they are in and of themselves useful, they should destroy their overall functionality so when combined, they're not bad? Because if so then clearly you don't have the willpower to not install the mods you seem to dislike. If not the functionality, then what? Automated gathering like you mentioned?
I bet you five bucks if you sat me down next to someone else and both of us had an iron pickaxe to start, I went digging underground and he did the same in order to start working on a quarry, and we both worked the same amount of time, can pretty much promise you I'll end the day with more useful resources in the end, as he had to use several of his more expensive materials to get there, and I would have far less extra dirt and stone to have to deal with. After five days of him making 10 quarries? Sure, he'll outdo me. If they worked any slower than they do now? Wouldn't be worth it.
I'm trying to show you that in your one, absolute using every means and every mod out there at their most automated state that you CHOSE to get to, yet have not offered on how they could change them without damaging the mod when it's all on it's own for it's original purpose.. maybe stop saying it needs a change and instead just say that for your own personal play style, it doesn't fit.
See, but in general the mods ARE used together and ARE used to exploit the interactions offered between the mods. The mods are also INTENDED to be used together or they wouldn't have features specifically meant to handle interactions between each other. This means that there is an issue. So where does the issue lie?... generally its automation that creates it.
Pumping liquids at fast speeds into IC2 geos allows you to sidestep most of IC2's power needs by abusing the nether. Using RP/BC to automate EE/TC is one of the primary reasons those mods are being rehashed. On their own.. they actually aren't nearly as broken, it's automation that causes the issue. I could keep going on...
You clearly continue to put words or make assumptions about me that are completely wrong as well. I don't dislike the mods. I have stated this once and I'll state it again. I LOVE AUTOMATION. I love the concepts behind the mods and I love the act of building these machines. However, I don't like the end result of the machines in their current state because they kinda ruin the whole multiplayer economy, end up doing everything for the player, etc. I'd like to see machines REQUIRE player interaction in order to continue to function.
I do think there is still the issue of being able to eventually get enough people together in the main world that they build the horrible matter generation machine with autocrafting.. and essentially makes it all pointless. Since none of the major machines have actual player~required maintenance, once one of these exists, it can run forever producing endless machines for other people to do the same thing.. and well.. no more economy.
What you say here makes me think you misunderstood a crucial part of my idea. My idea is a concept that depends on something being built that currently does not exist: a way for mods to be installed, not to minecraft as an entire instance, but to particular dimensions within the game. The main overworld in my basic concept does not have any technical mods installed at all. Only mods that the server admin think are appropriate for the main overworld. So, for example, if the server admin wanted NEI to be installed on the main overworld (with cheat mode forcibly disabled, of course), and then a user in the main overworld opened the NEI interface he or she would see no mod recipes at all. Autocrafting tables and matter generation machines do not exist in the main overworld at all. You would see the recipe for whatever items you need to travel to a new dimension, since that is a part of this hypothetical "mulit-mods" mod. Suppose the player constructs whatever the recipe requires for a portal to a new instance of an age which the server admin set up as an option, which runs Buildcraft and Forestry (and nothing else, save NEI). The player would have to leave his or her items behind, and when arriving in the new age, if he or she opened the NEI interface again, taa-daa! buildcraft and forestry recipes! When the user travels back to the main overworld (carrying no items again - including armor), NEI would once again report that Vanilla is all that exists. Alternatively, the server admin could set up the main overworld to run your new, incredibly balanced redux mod, while still offering the other mods in their own little sandbox worlds, mixed and matched from the "multi-mod" config files to the server admin's reading of the desires of his or her users.
What you say here makes me think you misunderstood a crucial part of my idea. My idea is a concept that depends on something being built that currently does not exist: a way for mods to be installed, not to minecraft as an entire instance, but to particular dimensions within the game. The main overworld in my basic concept does not have any technical mods installed at all. Only mods that the server admin think are appropriate for the main overworld. So, for example, if the server admin wanted NEI to be installed on the main overworld (with cheat mode forcibly disabled, of course), and then a user in the main overworld opened the NEI interface he or she would see no mod recipes at all. Autocrafting tables and matter generation machines do not exist in the main overworld at all. You would see the recipe for whatever items you need to travel to a new dimension, since that is a part of this hypothetical "mulit-mods" mod. Suppose the player constructs whatever the recipe requires for a portal to a new instance of an age which the server admin set up as an option, which runs Buildcraft and Forestry (and nothing else, save NEI). The player would have to leave his or her items behind, and when arriving in the new age, if he or she opened the NEI interface again, taa-daa! buildcraft and forestry recipes! When the user travels back to the main overworld (carrying no items again - including armor), NEI would once again report that Vanilla is all that exists. Alternatively, the server admin could set up the main overworld to run your new, incredibly balanced redux mod, while still offering the other mods in their own little sandbox worlds, mixed and matched from the "multi-mod" config files to the server admin's reading of the desires of his or her users.
I did indeed misunderstand you, I understood that you would be able to conquer a dungeon in order to bring items from your instance world to the main world. For instance, you take the 'Alchemy' challenge which is a spawned EE world, and you have to conquer the dungeon using EE machines and tools. Upon achieving this time consuming goal, you gain the class 'Alchemist' and maybe unlock a EE block for use in the main world.
The main downside with this is that you'd need to allow the class to only bring back mod items that couldn't be abused.. aka, ending up with a very restrictive main world. Or no items as you are saying now.. essentially making it no different then joining a new server instead of joining a new map.
This is why I say mods need full configuration. A mod author can not foresee every use or combination that his mod will be used with. Yes, many of the big mod authors hang out together and have interoperability between their mods. Even so, they do not have control over what those other mod authors will have in their mods. Even if they all got together in one big mod-balancing meeting and finely balanced their mods to work together what is going to happen when I install some other mod that is not one of the heavy-weights? Doggy Talents, The Dust mod, The Turret Mod, etc. I play with many mods together and some can be quite cheat-y when combined (Big Trees and Treecapitator for one example. Toss all that wood into a Relay -> Transmutation Tablet setup and it is even more stupidly overpowered).
You yourself said you did not envision all the uses your mod was put to. So why not give server admins the chance to fix any of these in-balances themselves? Right now if one comes up then they are SOL until a new version comes out. Lets face it, new versions of mods are sometimes REALLY slow in arriving and when they do they probably won't fix that particular problem or in-balance. This is why we need to be able to turn off some interactions or parts of mods at the discretion of the server admin or player.
You argument that this becomes "confusing" is just insulting. If these people are able to get all these mods working together in the first place then I doubt they will be "confused" by being given the choice of how they want mods to work together.
Just going to throw this in here, why are we arguing about automation for 3 pages and not actually doing anything about it?
I personally have a distaste for huge automatic factories, if I can't do anything with them.
However, If I have a small factory with one nuclear chamber to power it, I need to maintain it, and It spews out only as much as I need.
I put this stuff into cool features. I love computercraft, just because it lets me show people my programming skills, in game. Here is where I use factories, to make computers and wire and whatnot on survival servers for bragging rights. (I would do something with red power computers, but I am not taking the time to ask a server op to install lunix on to a floppy, if they are x86 emulators like I was told).
Fighting, looting, war, greifing, pillaging. Those are all things I like from minecraft. I am converting minecraft. Well, sort of. I am making an addon to turn it into an FPS (can't release info yet, as I need an email from a company about copyright). It will allow you to fight a better fight.
I once had a server that was just war between 2 factions, greifing and all.
Boy, it was fun.
This is why I say mods need full configuration. A mod author can not foresee every use or combination that his mod will be used with. Yes, many of the big mod authors hang out together and have interoperability between their mods. Even so, they do not have control over what those other mod authors will have in their mods. Even if they all got together in one big mod-balancing meeting and finely balanced their mods to work together what is going to happen when I install some other mod that is not one of the heavy-weights? Doggy Talents, The Dust mod, The Turret Mod, etc. I play with many mods together and some can be quite cheat-y when combined (Big Trees and Treecapitator for one example. Toss all that wood into a Relay -> Transmutation Tablet setup and it is even more stupidly overpowered).
You yourself said you did not envision all the uses your mod was put to. So why not give server admins the chance to fix any of these in-balances themselves? Right now if one comes up then they are SOL until a new version comes out. Lets face it, new versions of mods are sometimes REALLY slow in arriving and when they do they probably won't fix that particular problem or in-balance. This is why we need to be able to turn off some interactions or parts of mods at the discretion of the server admin or player.
You argument that this becomes "confusing" is just insulting. If these people are able to get all these mods working together in the first place then I doubt they will be "confused" by being given the choice of how they want mods to work together.
I didn't say it would be confusing for server owners to setup. I said it would be confusing to users who assume the mod works one way because they got it to play on one server.. only to have it work another way when playing on another server. This causes people to come and complain about the mod not working correctly, being overpowered when it isn't by default, etc. It's better to focus on an experience and make that experience balanced fundamentally.
Automation is the largest issue behind the unbalanced nature of playing the mods together period. Anything that does the players job for them without needing the player to participate at all takes player time out of the equation.. and player time is the primary balancing factor in how fast something can be accomplished in a game like this. Bring that player time back into the situation by requiring maintenance and you balance things quite a bit. Nerf the operating speed slightly to just stop machines from completely outclassing players.. and wala.. balanced automation.. even alongside other mods.
If a relay needed repair (say using a screwdriver on it.. then a wire to replace a broken wire, and then the screwdriver again to re~enable it).. you could fill it with materials to pump into a furnace.. but would have to periodically give up some player time purely to make sure it kept operating. It wouldn't happen constantly, but it'd happen enough to require a PLAYER time sink every so often..making one managable.. two still easy... 10...not so much.
Well, this isn't some massive idea I've been pondering for ages or anything, it's just a thought I had that I thought was interesting.
It is true that the basic concept of "multi-mod-craft" is similar to just logging off and logging back into another server - but I think it is different enough to be pretty interesting. There are thousands of servers out there, so if you are a player who likes dabbling in multiple styles of play, you are likely to know a completely different set of people on each of the servers you frequent. With "multi-mod-craft", multiple differently modded worlds connect to a single persistent world, plus chat is universal in minecraft so you'll get to know a single group of people. It seems like you'd have an easier time finding someone willing to join you on a two player quest to build something truly starting from scratch.
When I had the thought that something like this might be interesting, I was thinking - what could you do to give players a motivation to go do whatever it is they like to do in their modded ages. The idea I came up with was to not allow any transfer of items between worlds - all the major mods are based on the use of items - but to make the reward be an actually improved capacity to the player him/herself. So, it's not that your alchemy adventure, say, lets you bring an EE item into the overworld, but rather maybe you gain the ability to spend health points to do the diving rod action with your bare hands. So long as there are no other mods that feature changes to the player him/herself, you could thus control the mod situation of the overworld to only include whatever mix of modded and vanilla gameplay you think is balanced and fun - taking into account the abilities you are going to allow players to gain for their personal characters. At the same time, you can allow players on your server to play with automation mechanics that are genuinely fun to learn whether they are OP or not without breaking the balance of the gameplay in the overworld.
Finally, I wanted to note that since the overworld is the gateway to the other worlds, plenty of people would indeed want to build there. Beginners coming to the server get to focus on vanilla-ish gameplay, depending on how the server is setup, then later, after they have gotten to know people, they can embark on the adventure of learning the other mods, either by themselves or with a mentor or as a team with other beginners - the point being that all of this can happen on the same server with the same people. I remember when I was first playing wanting to play in a fresh, unspoiled world with another person, just the two of us, so we could experience things together -- but sadly, I was never able to find a place to have this experience. Every multiplayer server I visited had people doing their own things in an already established world.
Anyway, the reason that I thought of my idea was that I was hearing what you were saying about economy. Beginners have more fun in a world where they can contribute something despite having just arrived and possibly being new to the game to boot. Economy systems on otherwise vanilla multiplayer servers do give players some options between mining, farming, and building, and I can see how a heavily modded server with the automation currently available can take away the ability for a beginner to feel that their contributions might be appreciated. At the same time, I love building complicated machines with mods I find to be absolutely amazing the way they are. Hence the concept of sandboxing the mods so that there can be a reward to mastering them that is kept reasonable, so that the glut of resources that results from automation, while it makes the gameplay in that age similar to creative, doesn't make the entire server un-fun for people who don't want to play on creative. Also, since there is a reward for playing through these ages mulitple times, you have something to keep you going through multiple times starting over from scratch, but without losing the ability to re-visit the awesome build you made a month ago.
Another thing about how something "multi-mod-craft" would be cool to be able to configure when setting up a server is the idea that you could decide that instead of allowing players to visit heavily modded ages easily, you could make it so that the recipes to make the portals for visiting ages with only a single mod installed are less expensive that the recipe for visiting an age with all of them. Or you could make the reward for beating the single-modded ages be a medal or something and make that one time of item an exception to not being able to bring anything with you, and make the portals to the multi-modded ages require these items. I don't know, sounds fun to me!
Point one: Automation is overpowered. End game automation does turn the game into a slightly boring what-is-the-point-i-already-have-everything simulation. The solution, make the game mechanics more
tediousinvolved. That line of thought carried far enough results in someone sitting in one spot babysitting a machine until it has completed its task and then moving on to the next set of machinery, and waiting for it to finish. Rinse and repeat.Point two: Automation is the point of the game. I want to have unrestricted access to automation and if i want i should be able to build a machine to do everything for me!! Carry this line of thought to its logical conclusion and eventually you're just sitting there watching your machines work and not participating.
In either case the game ends up being incredibly boring, repetitive, and not fun. Personally I think that I would always prefer to have more automation options than less. In the case of EE2, in general, I would usually limit myself to a certain set of rules to allow the game to be more enjoyable for a longer period (no transmutations, etc).
Unfortunately the fact remains that if you grab a diamond pick and mine for long enough eventually the game is going to turn into creative mode no matter what you do. I think that in quite a few cases modders are really doing a great job balancing their mods so that you can go crazy with your automation without ruining the game instantly. Mods such as EE3, Forestry with its slower pace, and the recent changes to nuclear power in IC2, etc are a good example of instances where automation is almost certainly a requirement for getting the full enjoyment out of a mod, but balanced enough so that utilizing the mod isn't going to have a negative impact on your enjoyment (at least in the short-mid term anyway).
I think that if we can maintain a balance between the complexity of automation available, and the progression of the gameplay through a particular mod utilizing said automation, that will probably yield the most fun over the long term.
If you've actually read my posts, you'd see that I think along a similar lines (except thinking that automation is needed in order to utilize the mods). I don't want maintenance to be so restrictive that you cannot leave the machine, I want maintenance such that a machine, once built, still requires some player interaction to maintain function. Its actually my detractors that keep making it seem like I want to make machines require constant babysitting.
Honestly, the main issue I see with automation is that it does stuff for you so fast that it removes a lot of the core mechanics of the game...food? automated bread machine. mining? quarry. crafting? logistic pipes and autocrafting table. Hey, look... two of the primary core gameplay mechanics Mining and Crafting... end up made pointless... how is that even Minecraft anymore?
Automation needs to be toned down, so that the primary benefit of automation isn't speed, its purely the fact that it does a task for you. A water pump would pump water slowly from one point to another, saving you from doing it yourself with buckets. A quarry would mine for you, but slowly, letting you focus on other things but not outpacing the other guy that likes mining and chose to do that on the server instead. If automation mods aren't toned down...we'll continue to lose out on the community that can form when people are encouraged to trade, work together, etc.
I'm not saying that I don't understand the other side either. I understand you want to be able to just build more machines and have the challenge of figuring out how to best do that.. but honestly if you want to remove the core gameplay components of mining, crafting, eating, etc... make a new game mode where those don't matter.. and start with machines. Because essentially you're playing creative mode+... and that just isn't survival mode anymore.
Building a frame quarry: grind.
Just a different kind of grind. I'm a programmer by day, and as such I love automation - but I play vanilla Minecraft, mostly because mods that allow you to build interesting mechanical doohickeys are just not challenging, at all.
Sure, building, say, a tunnel borer from scratch might be, but if you wanted that tunnel bored for you, you'd probably be faster strapping some TNT to a mountain and blowing a path through. Not as pretty, but effective.
Not saying mods don't have their place, but if you say that you use mods to avoid the grind, you might want to reconsider your argument since you're just replacing one grind with another - just that the other one might be packaged in shinier wrapping paper, or comes with a free paper umbrella.
They use the resources they gain to make the far, far more expensive items from the mods to speed up their production, so they can make the even higher tier of items, so they can start building items on a larger scale, yet at no point do they ever have 'unlimited' resources. There are three core points to Minecraft: Mining, Crafting, Building, with Crafting being making the parts, Building being making buildings or the likes. These mods require us to go down and mine by hand to get resources just like Vanilla. Infact, in order to get the quarries and the likes, it requires you to get the materials that would deem 'end game' for vanilla mindcraft, AKA you've reached the peak, there's no further to go.
Once you gain the quarry, you need to make engines, and keep it fueled. That early into the game, you won't have 20 combustion engines making it scream in speed, you have a few steam ones perhaps, which even with chunk loading, will take near an hour to get to bedrock. In that time, I could dig up 10x the amount of useful resources by hand, thus making it less efficient. The ONLY time the machines outpace the player, is when the player is already done with his or her progression, allowing them to focus on new projects while still having to move their quarries, sort their materials, so on so fourth.
I think your major problem is you're looking at all of the mods put together to make them the absolute most automation possible, thus damning all of them in the process. That's akin to me saying your idea for less to no automation is stupid, because vanilla minecraft allows you to turn on creative mode, thus negating the need for mining entirely. One does not make the other bad, it's the combination. If I JUST have IC2, there's a lot of hand-work I have to do with those machines. If I JUST have redpower, there's a crapton of tweaking and adjusting I have to do to get something even remotely automated. If I JUST have buildcraft, there's a lot of fuel juggling for my engines, hunting for oil, refining, always a finite amount of resources to keep my automation going.
To say these mods are 'just like putting you into sandbox or creative mode' is beyond ignorant, and you lose a LOT of your footing on the topic, as it shows your overall bias and lack of actually thinking things through. Every other line you make is about player economy, rather than actual balance or fun, leading to the conclusion that what YOU see Minecraft as is a hunter/gatherer sim where those who farm may trade with those who do not do as much. That is one of many, many, MANY ways of playing minecraft that do not include any form of creative/sandbox mode.
You are free to do what you want with your mod, just as players are free to no longer use it if it causes more trouble than it's worth. People don't want 'lolezmoad', some people just don't want to spend hours holding down their right mouse button. They want to go through an overly complicated crafting and balancing act to make a machine and actually see their creation come to life, see all those bells and whistles go off to a fully functional design.
Make it so that the fun, technical, potentially OP mods like RedPower, IndustrialCraft, Buildcraft, Forestry, and Equivalent Exchange are disabled in the main overworld. Instead, let there be a mod similar to Mystcraft that lets you travel to other dimensions/ages. Unlike Mystcraft, however, make it so that you can't take any items with you at all, nor can you bring any items back. Whatever mods you think are fun to play can be active when you visit these other dimensions, so a player who creates one of these ages and travels there can go nuts building OP quarries, etc. Note that any form of trans-dimension transport of items will also be disabled.
Now for the kicker of my idea. Add a special dungeon to each of these ages that only generates in one place, similar to how only three strongholds generate in the overworld. In this dungeon, house a unique item that can be aquired after defeating the dungeon's boss monster, which will have power and difficulty requiring the use of powerful end game type mod items to defeat. Using this item assigns a job/ class to the player him/herself. Being an aspect of the player, possesion of this job is the only thing that can be brought back to the main overworld.
Back in the main overworld, new players can join existing players as useful members of society, since possesion of one of the various jobs available does not make the experienced players overpowered relative to the newcomers. Newcomers can still usefully participate in mining, farming, building, etc to grow the server. If a newcomer wants whatever advantages come with having a job/ class, however, they would need to travel to one of the ages where they can use technical mods to achieve the goal of gaining a job/ class. Even if they don't care to seek out the dungeon they would need to defeat to get a new job/ class they might want to go to one of these ages just to experience the modded gameplay and build something awesome to show their friends, who can also travel from the overworld to their age.
Multiple players can embark together on the process of taming a new world if they want, but each new world only provides the job/ class upgrade to one player. The nature of these worlds can optionally depend on the job you are trying to get, with a thematically appropriate dungeon and monster. Also I can envision there being differently powered versions of the worlds available, so that for example, if you want to become a level 1 healer, the boss to defeat is not as hard as the boss to become a level 8 healer. Another possibility is for the benefits to the player to be mix-and-match-able abilities and not just a single class. Maybe a main-class/ sub-class type system, or a Final Fantasy Tactics type setup, I don't know. Doing something like this would give a player who has already "beaten the system" in one of the ages to get the reward involved an incentive to do it again: starting a new world from scratch, giving them an opportunity to change up the way they do things - or not, depending on their preferences. The end goal being the same - get tons of resources somehow, so you can craft powerful end game stuff and go beat the monster.
If there are different levels of the jobs it is important that they be kept not OP, and that the functions provided mesh well with the economy, purpose, and structure of the overworld server society.
The main thing I like about my idea is the fact that it allows a single, growing community to experience the initial, setting-up aspect of modded minecraft many times - building new worlds from scratch, to gain benefits in the main world that are appropriate, not overpowered. It basically sandboxes the overpoweredness, so that new players can join the fun at a similar level to everybody else.
http://www.minecraft...technical-mods/
First point, do your players actually know how to use the mods together? You can utilize Buildcraft with IC2 to essentially make power pointless. If you combine that with Forestry Electric engines, you can essentially have massive amounts of cheap power by building your matter generator in the Nether. The resources gained by said machine could be funneled back into expanding it until you're producing UU matter faster then you'll reasonably use it... or just immediately turning it into diamond blocks via an automated process (or Redmatter via EE). I've seen things like this done on servers multiple times.. and only requiring a day or two of setup.
Sure, I'll agree with you... if mods are used on their own they are a lot more balanced. That's because they are in an isolated environment where the power of another mod isn't affecting it. However, said mods are designed to be compatible with others and in many cases even have specific implementations to make the mod's features compatible (such as Forestry, IC, and BC). In addition, the general community uses the mods together as well. So why is it hard to expect mods to at least try and be balanced against each other? Especially when said mods specifically interact with either other intentionally.
As for my comments about turning the game into creative mode... it is a pretty valid statement. What features does creative mode offer? Flying?... IC2 (or EE2, or TC2). Invincibility?... IC2 (nearly anyways, or EE2). Infinite resources?... RP/BC Quarries (or BC/IC Nether UU generators, or EE2+BC/RP). Fast block breaking?.. TC2 (or IC2). So yes.. the combination of mods generally does turn the game into creative mod. The speed at which it can be done is based on how well you understand the interactions between the mods and how lucky you get when you initially search for resources. In the end though, its only a matter of time.
What is the major cause of this issue? Automation. Specifically fast automation that can accomplish mining for you, processing those materials, and then crafting them into your end machine blocks (and even placing them potentially). This happens fast enough that the player couldn't generally do the whole process themselves and hope to keep up...and once setup.. it requires no maintenance..which means that on a server.. you can work together to get the infinite material generator going.. and then everyone just player psuedo creative mode... if that's what you want to do.. then why not just play creative mode?
I actually disagree, something that is tedious can actually add a time sink, difficulty, and be enjoyable if it is done in such a way that it is immersive and fun. If you actually visually see the reaction of a gear breaking and slowing down a machine after it gets worn and the entire machine slows down/stops as a result..and then the entire thing wind back up and start functioning again when you replace it.. it can be a lot of fun. It has to be done well to be fun though, and that's what I'm asking to be done...
That's a great method to work with the existing power of the current mods. However, what reason would people have to goto the main world when they can hang out in their own world with all the power they have? Honestly, I see something like this being fun.. but more of a bandage then a solution to the problem. The problem is that the current power of automation breaks other mods it's combined with...it needs to be toned down a bit...but in a way that remains fun to play. I think that a good use of maintenance and a reduction in speed would be a good step towards this goal.
If all of these mods were one thing and designed to ONLY be ran with eachother, sure, they're a bit much. I also see you using EE and TC in your examples, which further proves you don't know what you're talking about. Both mod makers have said they agree it's over the top, and both are making ground-up changes, pretty much rendering that argument pointless. You keep using little examples of 'Well it's SORTA like creative mode, therefor it pretty much is', when you can take literally anything from creative mode with 0 effort, 0 work, 0 time spent, 0 mining, 0 crafting.. Please don't make such an over the top comparison if you want to be taken seriously.
What's next? NEI is a terrible game breaking mod because even though you can check recipes, see item IDs for easier debugging, and have everything you may need at your fingertips, it allows you to go creative mode and give you things, therefor it ruins the game? If you use a mod with the pure intention of destroying progressing, you're going to do it no matter what.
You are taking everything I say and going quite overboard with it.. my general statement is correct.. you essentially build yourself into creative mode with the collection of mods. Did I once say it takes zero effort to get there? No!... In fact, I specifically said it takes a day or two. After that day or two.. you can basically build whatever you want with no resource cost, while being able to fly, and break most blocks rather fast.. quite a bit like creative mode.
As for mods allowing another mod to do something it couldn't before.. lets see... powering a IC2 geothermal generator by pumping lava into it.. that's something you can do with IC2 alone. Powering BC machines with the easier to generate and store IC2 power.. oh yeah.. Forestry does that (and empowers both BC and IC because of it). In fact, nearly all the big tech~ish mods have specific interaction between each other in some way... almost as if they are expected to be played together. I wonder if that might have anything to do with many of their authors actually playing together?... hrm... m...a...y...b...e.
I'm not bashing the mods. I'm not saying they are bad or their authors are bad (in fact, I consider many of said authors friends). What I am saying is that I think the automation mods (BC/RP being the primary ones right now) could use some nerfing or redesign to help balance them against other mods, especially with multiplayer in mind. Perhaps machines could work faster on single player and much slower on multiplayer to help compensate some. Add in a bit of maintenance like oiling, or gear replacing.. and wala.. more balanced, requiring a bit of manual interaction, and all around more balanced.
The people who would choose to hang out in their own world where they have massive power are presumably the same people who would disagree with you about the current state of mods being un-fun. My point is that if it were possible to build a server the way I described, both types of players would be accomodated. The way I see it, to have fun playing a game you need to have a goal. A very compelling goal in a multi-player sandbox game is to gain real world prestige with other players - to be someone who other people look up to.
In minecraft, there are at least three different kinds of accomplishments that can inspire awe in other players.
One, non-technical builds that are creative, artistic or massive. These are the sorts of things that people who enjoy creative mode enjoy building, and one can be impressed viewing their work. In our theoretical server, these folks can have fun in a "mod age" having mastered the mods in whatever fashion - the point being that they have achieved the equilavent of creative mode so they can get to work. These folks can leave signs in the overworld pointing visitors to their creations, so that people can go see them.
Two, technical builds where the point is the complexity or engineering of the machine - not the result in terms of what resources you get out of it, but the marvel of engineering itself. People who enjoy watching Dire's videos might get a kick out of visiting the age of a player who is good at this sort of thing and be impressed by the design.
Third, builds whether technical or not, that were accomplished in a vanilla-like setting, where the appreciation of the impressiveness of the build is enhanced by the understanding that everything was done 'legit'. If you see a castle on an unmodded vanilla server the assumption is that it was built by hand, with hand-mined blocks, etc, and knowing that this is the case elevates the sense of awe. Anyone who wants to get this kind of prestige needs to build, mine, farm, etc in the main overworld - and there are players who will want to do that.
There is another type of player who doesn't care what anyone else thinks, and wants to live in the process of the gameplay. This player might care about the community or about the economy - the metagame aspects of minecraft. Such a player would also be likely to spend his or her time in the overworld, helping newcomers find a place and a way to contribute to the overworld community. The thing I like about my idea is that playing through the modded minecraft experience once or twice can help such a player have new ways to contribute.
The other thing about my idea that makes me think it has potential is that the overworld experience does not have to be completely mod-free. If you invent a redux type mod, someone could set up a server where the overworld uses your mod, but where players have access to other mods by going to the other ages.
http://www.minecraft...technical-mods/
Again, stop comparing them to creative mode if you don't want crazy and over the top claims made in return.
You keep putting words in my mouth.. I never once said it was instant. I said that within 2 days (48 hours), its very possible to build a system that will generate massive amounts of UU matter, route it automatically into some form of autocrafting (computercraft, logistics, straight autocrafters, tube stuff, w/e) to build your machines. Is it as instant as NEI or creative, no.. but once its setup and running you can very easily produce enough surplus of machines that you essentially have all you need at any given time. Is it an instant setup? No. Does it resemble being able to have all you need when you need it a lot like creative mode? Yes.
I'm not making over the top comparisons. I'm making accurate comparisons based on experience in using many of these mods quite extensively myself. I've built the nether UU matter machine. I have built logistics crafting lines. It's not that hard to understand what would happen if you route nearly infinite and fast generating UU into a logistics~like crafting line and having it keep yourself stocked with machines and other primary materials. Maybe I wouldn't be able to stockpile EVERY resource within 48 hours.. but I could replicate enough. Given a full weeks time, I could probably have my machine producing everything.. I could also probably use computercraft to have turtles continually expand it forever.. talk about taking the player out of the game.. lol.
Don't get me wrong, I love your idea. I think it would be a great way to setup a server using the mods as they are currently. However, I don't think it solves the underlying issues themselves. Automation in a game like Minecraft is just a really powerful mechanic that needs to be kept in check. Currently, there are not enough checks and balances in the automation mods.
Your idea is a great way to create a good community with the existing mods. I would love to play on such a server if someone was to put it together, though I do think there is still the issue of being able to eventually get enough people together in the main world that they build the horrible matter generation machine with autocrafting.. and essentially makes it all pointless. Since none of the major machines have actual player~required maintenance, once one of these exists, it can run forever producing endless machines for other people to do the same thing.. and well.. no more economy.
I bet you five bucks if you sat me down next to someone else and both of us had an iron pickaxe to start, I went digging underground and he did the same in order to start working on a quarry, and we both worked the same amount of time, can pretty much promise you I'll end the day with more useful resources in the end, as he had to use several of his more expensive materials to get there, and I would have far less extra dirt and stone to have to deal with. After five days of him making 10 quarries? Sure, he'll outdo me. If they worked any slower than they do now? Wouldn't be worth it.
I'm trying to show you that in your one, absolute using every means and every mod out there at their most automated state that you CHOSE to get to, yet have not offered on how they could change them without damaging the mod when it's all on it's own for it's original purpose.. maybe stop saying it needs a change and instead just say that for your own personal play style, it doesn't fit.
See, but in general the mods ARE used together and ARE used to exploit the interactions offered between the mods. The mods are also INTENDED to be used together or they wouldn't have features specifically meant to handle interactions between each other. This means that there is an issue. So where does the issue lie?... generally its automation that creates it.
Pumping liquids at fast speeds into IC2 geos allows you to sidestep most of IC2's power needs by abusing the nether. Using RP/BC to automate EE/TC is one of the primary reasons those mods are being rehashed. On their own.. they actually aren't nearly as broken, it's automation that causes the issue. I could keep going on...
You clearly continue to put words or make assumptions about me that are completely wrong as well. I don't dislike the mods. I have stated this once and I'll state it again. I LOVE AUTOMATION. I love the concepts behind the mods and I love the act of building these machines. However, I don't like the end result of the machines in their current state because they kinda ruin the whole multiplayer economy, end up doing everything for the player, etc. I'd like to see machines REQUIRE player interaction in order to continue to function.
What you say here makes me think you misunderstood a crucial part of my idea. My idea is a concept that depends on something being built that currently does not exist: a way for mods to be installed, not to minecraft as an entire instance, but to particular dimensions within the game. The main overworld in my basic concept does not have any technical mods installed at all. Only mods that the server admin think are appropriate for the main overworld. So, for example, if the server admin wanted NEI to be installed on the main overworld (with cheat mode forcibly disabled, of course), and then a user in the main overworld opened the NEI interface he or she would see no mod recipes at all. Autocrafting tables and matter generation machines do not exist in the main overworld at all. You would see the recipe for whatever items you need to travel to a new dimension, since that is a part of this hypothetical "mulit-mods" mod. Suppose the player constructs whatever the recipe requires for a portal to a new instance of an age which the server admin set up as an option, which runs Buildcraft and Forestry (and nothing else, save NEI). The player would have to leave his or her items behind, and when arriving in the new age, if he or she opened the NEI interface again, taa-daa! buildcraft and forestry recipes! When the user travels back to the main overworld (carrying no items again - including armor), NEI would once again report that Vanilla is all that exists. Alternatively, the server admin could set up the main overworld to run your new, incredibly balanced redux mod, while still offering the other mods in their own little sandbox worlds, mixed and matched from the "multi-mod" config files to the server admin's reading of the desires of his or her users.
http://www.minecraft...technical-mods/
I did indeed misunderstand you, I understood that you would be able to conquer a dungeon in order to bring items from your instance world to the main world. For instance, you take the 'Alchemy' challenge which is a spawned EE world, and you have to conquer the dungeon using EE machines and tools. Upon achieving this time consuming goal, you gain the class 'Alchemist' and maybe unlock a EE block for use in the main world.
The main downside with this is that you'd need to allow the class to only bring back mod items that couldn't be abused.. aka, ending up with a very restrictive main world. Or no items as you are saying now.. essentially making it no different then joining a new server instead of joining a new map.
You yourself said you did not envision all the uses your mod was put to. So why not give server admins the chance to fix any of these in-balances themselves? Right now if one comes up then they are SOL until a new version comes out. Lets face it, new versions of mods are sometimes REALLY slow in arriving and when they do they probably won't fix that particular problem or in-balance. This is why we need to be able to turn off some interactions or parts of mods at the discretion of the server admin or player.
You argument that this becomes "confusing" is just insulting. If these people are able to get all these mods working together in the first place then I doubt they will be "confused" by being given the choice of how they want mods to work together.
I personally have a distaste for huge automatic factories, if I can't do anything with them.
However, If I have a small factory with one nuclear chamber to power it, I need to maintain it, and It spews out only as much as I need.
I put this stuff into cool features. I love computercraft, just because it lets me show people my programming skills, in game. Here is where I use factories, to make computers and wire and whatnot on survival servers for bragging rights. (I would do something with red power computers, but I am not taking the time to ask a server op to install lunix on to a floppy, if they are x86 emulators like I was told).
Fighting, looting, war, greifing, pillaging. Those are all things I like from minecraft. I am converting minecraft. Well, sort of. I am making an addon to turn it into an FPS (can't release info yet, as I need an email from a company about copyright). It will allow you to fight a better fight.
I once had a server that was just war between 2 factions, greifing and all.
Boy, it was fun.
I missed my point, but I supplied a few
Edit: post #69
I didn't say it would be confusing for server owners to setup. I said it would be confusing to users who assume the mod works one way because they got it to play on one server.. only to have it work another way when playing on another server. This causes people to come and complain about the mod not working correctly, being overpowered when it isn't by default, etc. It's better to focus on an experience and make that experience balanced fundamentally.
Automation is the largest issue behind the unbalanced nature of playing the mods together period. Anything that does the players job for them without needing the player to participate at all takes player time out of the equation.. and player time is the primary balancing factor in how fast something can be accomplished in a game like this. Bring that player time back into the situation by requiring maintenance and you balance things quite a bit. Nerf the operating speed slightly to just stop machines from completely outclassing players.. and wala.. balanced automation.. even alongside other mods.
If a relay needed repair (say using a screwdriver on it.. then a wire to replace a broken wire, and then the screwdriver again to re~enable it).. you could fill it with materials to pump into a furnace.. but would have to periodically give up some player time purely to make sure it kept operating. It wouldn't happen constantly, but it'd happen enough to require a PLAYER time sink every so often..making one managable.. two still easy... 10...not so much.
Well, this isn't some massive idea I've been pondering for ages or anything, it's just a thought I had that I thought was interesting.
It is true that the basic concept of "multi-mod-craft" is similar to just logging off and logging back into another server - but I think it is different enough to be pretty interesting. There are thousands of servers out there, so if you are a player who likes dabbling in multiple styles of play, you are likely to know a completely different set of people on each of the servers you frequent. With "multi-mod-craft", multiple differently modded worlds connect to a single persistent world, plus chat is universal in minecraft so you'll get to know a single group of people. It seems like you'd have an easier time finding someone willing to join you on a two player quest to build something truly starting from scratch.
When I had the thought that something like this might be interesting, I was thinking - what could you do to give players a motivation to go do whatever it is they like to do in their modded ages. The idea I came up with was to not allow any transfer of items between worlds - all the major mods are based on the use of items - but to make the reward be an actually improved capacity to the player him/herself. So, it's not that your alchemy adventure, say, lets you bring an EE item into the overworld, but rather maybe you gain the ability to spend health points to do the diving rod action with your bare hands. So long as there are no other mods that feature changes to the player him/herself, you could thus control the mod situation of the overworld to only include whatever mix of modded and vanilla gameplay you think is balanced and fun - taking into account the abilities you are going to allow players to gain for their personal characters. At the same time, you can allow players on your server to play with automation mechanics that are genuinely fun to learn whether they are OP or not without breaking the balance of the gameplay in the overworld.
Finally, I wanted to note that since the overworld is the gateway to the other worlds, plenty of people would indeed want to build there. Beginners coming to the server get to focus on vanilla-ish gameplay, depending on how the server is setup, then later, after they have gotten to know people, they can embark on the adventure of learning the other mods, either by themselves or with a mentor or as a team with other beginners - the point being that all of this can happen on the same server with the same people. I remember when I was first playing wanting to play in a fresh, unspoiled world with another person, just the two of us, so we could experience things together -- but sadly, I was never able to find a place to have this experience. Every multiplayer server I visited had people doing their own things in an already established world.
Anyway, the reason that I thought of my idea was that I was hearing what you were saying about economy. Beginners have more fun in a world where they can contribute something despite having just arrived and possibly being new to the game to boot. Economy systems on otherwise vanilla multiplayer servers do give players some options between mining, farming, and building, and I can see how a heavily modded server with the automation currently available can take away the ability for a beginner to feel that their contributions might be appreciated. At the same time, I love building complicated machines with mods I find to be absolutely amazing the way they are. Hence the concept of sandboxing the mods so that there can be a reward to mastering them that is kept reasonable, so that the glut of resources that results from automation, while it makes the gameplay in that age similar to creative, doesn't make the entire server un-fun for people who don't want to play on creative. Also, since there is a reward for playing through these ages mulitple times, you have something to keep you going through multiple times starting over from scratch, but without losing the ability to re-visit the awesome build you made a month ago.
Another thing about how something "multi-mod-craft" would be cool to be able to configure when setting up a server is the idea that you could decide that instead of allowing players to visit heavily modded ages easily, you could make it so that the recipes to make the portals for visiting ages with only a single mod installed are less expensive that the recipe for visiting an age with all of them. Or you could make the reward for beating the single-modded ages be a medal or something and make that one time of item an exception to not being able to bring anything with you, and make the portals to the multi-modded ages require these items. I don't know, sounds fun to me!
http://www.minecraft...technical-mods/