Invasive? What invasive? You mean the 1000s of base edits forge does ON BEHALF OF OTHER MODS?
Remember when NEI went into the jar? Or RedPower? Or BuildCraft? Or IndustrialCraft? Forge removed that need!
...and if I don't use any of those mods? It's a lot of incompatibility with non-Forge mods that I have to deal with for the sake of crap I don't care about.
...and if I don't use any of those mods? It's a lot of incompatibility with non-Forge mods that I have to deal with for the sake of crap I don't care about.
The thing is, some mods that really only need restrictions on item/block ids (or that plus a small number of hooks/base file edits) use Forge because there aren't a whole lot of other options for that (and likely none of them Forge compatible). An example would be something like Pam's Mods (added stuff like flowers, fruit trees, food...).
In these cases, you've got a lot of stuff Forge does that's not necessary, it's just bloat.
Until you apply 186 mods to your , I'm really not that impressed.
Anyway, by bloat I mean I can't think of any reason for certain mods like Pam's HarvestCraft and Better Than Wolves to be incompatible with one another for any reason other than one uses Forge and one doesn't.
Now, I have to really compliment the guys who wrote FML on Forge. FML is great, and maybe they can add in some of Forge's super-core functionalities like item/block ids to FML to create something of a Forge Lite that offers greater compatibility at the cost of potentially requiring a bit more jar editing.
The thing is, some mods that really only need restrictions on item/block ids (or that plus a small number of hooks/base file edits) use Forge because there aren't a whole lot of other options for that (and likely none of them Forge compatible). An example would be something like Pam's Mods (added stuff like flowers, fruit trees, food...).
In these cases, you've got a lot of stuff Forge does that's not necessary, it's just bloat.
Yeah, that's the ENTIRE point of Forge from the beginning, a giant compatibility patch and API for all mods out there to use.
Until you apply 186 mods to your , I'm really not that impressed.
Anyway, by bloat I mean I can't think of any reason for certain mods like Pam's HarvestCraft and Better Than Wolves to be incompatible with one another for any reason other than one uses Forge and one doesn't.
Now, I have to really compliment the guys who wrote FML on Forge. FML is great, and maybe they can add in some of Forge's super-core functionalities like item/block ids to FML to create something of a Forge Lite that offers greater compatibility at the cost of potentially requiring a bit more jar editing.
For Better Than Wolves, that's FlowerChild's own decision.
And no, it's never gonna happen. FML serves only as a loader, and Forge as the API.
And compatibility, you say? Yeah, as far as I understand, Forge/FML should be, and is, thanks to the hard work of cpw, compatible with almost all ModLoader mods, and if otherwise, they should be compatible with us as far as possible.
As there is a rather large amount of misinformation and name calling around, and in an attempt to actually be logical amongst this group, here are some basic descriptions and information.
Jarmods - This is a class of mod that edits base files, whether they use an API like ModLoader or Forge or SomethingMythical, if they make base edits, they are a jarmod. Since a jarmod edits base files it will inherently be incompatible with other jarmods that make edits to the same base files, even if those edits are for a different purpose. In essence, any mod that makes base edits is actively not caring about compatibility as the very act of making base edits means that the mod *will* be incompatible at some point.
ModLoader - Is a jarmod that acts as a very thin API making a small amount of base edits to allow mods to achieve adding in basic classes such as new blocks or items and so forth. Its API does not allow for a good deal of functionality, hence why many ModLoader mods end up turning in to jarmods, and by doing so they instantly lose a great deal of compatibility. This is not an open-source mod and has no license that allows distribution, thus you require authorization directly from the author to redstribute. In essence, a mod can make calls 'to' modloader to do something in the base classes instead of needing to make those changes itself. Without modloader you could only, for example, have one mod that adds new blocks since they would conflict otherwise (it is more complicated than this, but this is the gist of why it exists).
'Clean Mod' - is a set of classes that are loaded by some form of mod loader, that then make callbacks to a mod loader to perform functionality within the Minecraft system, such as registering a new block type. If a mod starts to make edits to base files due to the limitation of the mod loader it is using, it then is no longer a clean mod and becomes a jarmod, thus losing potential compatibility with anything that edits the same base classes.
ForgeModLoader - Is a jarmod that performs similar, but different functionality to ModLoader. It does do everything ModLoader does, but it is a clean room implementation (meaning it was made only be seeing how mods 'use' modloader, but without looking at modloader itself) of modloader, however it also adds in higher functionality. One of its defining characteristics other than adding a few new hooks above beyond ModLoader is the concept of a 'coremod'.
FML CoreMod - Is a type of mod that can be loaded like a normal mod, however it makes minor edits due the java class bytecode for only what it needs. Basically this allows a mod to make a base edit, without actually editing the base class files. Since coremods are to add their own custom hooks it should always remain compatible with any other coremods. Jarmods, since they edit base files themselves, are still wholly incompatible due to the poor design of such a mod.
Given these definitions, it should be obvious why any mod that is a jarmod is inherently of poor design since it would not remain compatible with anything else that edits similar base classes. Thus it makes sense to create a set of hooks to let multiple mods interact with similar functionality to the base system, and since you need a hook to begin these classes to load you would then create a loader as well, hence a Mod Loader is born. The single-authors Mod Loader's capabilities are highly limited since it cannot possible fulfill the desire of every single base edit of every single mod out, thus a group of mod authors come together and combine what is needed to make an expanded set of hooks, hence Forge was born. Forge allowed any modder to submit new hooks, and after cleaning them up and making them properly generic for maximal usage the new hook is then added to the ecosystem for use by any and all other mod authors. The other mod authors, by seeing what hooks are available, get new ideas for new gameplay mechanics and it drives creativity even higher. However these hooks, although useful in preventing base edits and encouraging compatibility, still do not let the mods properly work together as there are a multitude of ways to access inventories, a multitude of identical blocks such as new ores amongst the mods. You then start creating compatibility layers on top of the hooks to allow for identical things in different mods to be treated as one, such as the Forge Ore Dictionary, which allows for any block or item to be registered by a unique name such as 'ore.copper' and any other mod that has a copper block can use yours and vice versa with no extra work required, thus increasing compatibility even further. These layers help reduce a massive amount of programming that would otherwise be needed by the modders by consolidating it in to a single, useful location, thus saving time. More ideas such as this are thought of and included and it spurs creativity even further.
Now, say there is a mod that edits a base class that forge also uses, by this mod being so poorly made so as to use a base edit that suddenly prevents an entire eco-system of mod authors that work well together from running with this mod, all because this one mod was not made well enough. Not that it is a big thing in any case, there are many mod ideas, and many programmers, and new ones coming all the time, and with the information available it is quite obvious that proper programming methods help let everything work together. In essence, just staying away from becoming a jarmod means that you should remain fully compatible with all non-jarmods, which is good, since jarmods themselves are not compatible with other jarmods either.
The question of bloat is also an odd one. The API's exposed do not cost anything if not used, and the designs presented can even make the game run faster. So the question is actually 'why not'? Only thing it could possibly break is a jarmod, of which is already designed to be incompatible anyway.
So why would anyone be 'for' jarmods when by their very design they try to break compatibility? When using a proper API can reduce the work that the modder does, and helps them at many turns? That is no doubt a question of intellect. A little research can go a very long way.
The thing is, some mods that really only need restrictions on item/block ids (or that plus a small number of hooks/base file edits) use Forge because there aren't a whole lot of other options for that (and likely none of them Forge compatible). An example would be something like Pam's Mods (added stuff like flowers, fruit trees, food...).
In these cases, you've got a lot of stuff Forge does that's not necessary, it's just bloat.
How is exposing code bloat? I always find this argument against forge laughable. If your saying it edits too many base classes making it incompatable with other mods, 1 that should be a problem with the other mods not forge, 2 everyone of those base class edits are required for multiple mods, that without forge would not work together
...if you copy someones design and use it to take over there business...
It would seem your understanding of the modding scene is a touch off base. Modders do things primarily for the fun of it, and secondarily for the entertainment of the community. If they weren't having fun, they would be doing other things. Forge was written because the Forge team has a passion for Minecraft not to simulate a totalitarian monopoly on an imaginary market.
Also, I am not the first to say this FlowerChild was working on forge and seen that this is what they where aiming towards and that is one of the reasons why he left forge and decided to make Better than Wolves a non forge compatible mod. If you don't believe me go look it up.
FlowerChild left Forge because Eloram was adding a bunch of hooks that didn't suit his needs, which he felt would bloat Minecraft considerably for people who weren't using them. Additionally, working alongside the Forge team wasn't allowing him to work at his own pace as it seemed to him as though Eloram was focused on adding features that would help with Red Power, and such.
Heh... Cool comeback bro, I mean it really described just who we're dealing with. Anyway, enjoy playing vanilla Minecraft. I think this thread is done.
why does everyone say that jarmods are "poorly designed"? Let's go back to (what other than) better than wolves. By not worrying about compatibility (Flowerchild doesn't try to be compatible, it's not that he purposefully breaks compatibility) he's been able to go hog wild with the vanilla game without worrying if every other mod will still run. Things like less stupid wolves, buoyancy, and more realistic bonemeal, codenamed hardcore bone, would have been possible (or at least way harder, if at all) if he stuck with forge or the like. I don't irrationally despise forge, but I prefer the alternative.
edit: also, BTW has yet to crash on me, and vanilla has.
why does everyone say that jarmods are "poorly designed"? Let's go back to (what other than) better than wolves. By not worrying about compatibility (Flowerchild doesn't try to be compatible, it's not that he purposefully breaks compatibility) he's been able to go hog wild with the vanilla game without worrying if every other mod will still run. Things like less stupid wolves, buoyancy, and more realistic bonemeal, codenamed hardcore bone, would have been possible (or at least way harder, if at all) if he stuck with forge or the like. I don't irrationally despise forge, but I prefer the alternative.
edit: also, BTW has yet to crash on me, and vanilla has.
actually, he does focus on incompatiblity. It's kind of funny really, that hibachi grill thingy, that i personally think is acutally well coded on it's own, is coded into the [profanity="fuck"]ing fire base class. this means your whole world gets [profanity="fuck"]ed over if you uninstall btw with any kind of fire on it, hibachi or otherwise, even if it was a lightning fire. And the reason he left forge is kind of selfish actually, he claims it was because forge was modifying too many base classes, but the real reason is that he didn't want compatiblity with other forge mods. Why? One word: Technic. He flipped his lid over technic so far, that he actually removed forge compatiblity JUST SO THAT HIS MOD WOULDN'T WORK WITH OTHER FORGE MODS. So that people don't even really even want to bother with redistributing it.
you should have thought about your words before you posted this. why do you say it has gone to far? and you mention modloader being shut down. and you show you like redpower at the bottom of your post. you insulted many people when you posted this sir. i for one know that you did not look into forge before you stated this because Risugami (the author of modloader) is part of forge. hmm and so is cpw (he made the minecraft coder pack with help) oh and redpower was made by eloraam (author of redpower). there are many other great programmers on this team. along with eloraam there is spacetoad, LexManos and a lot more that i cant remember at the moment because im in raged. these Developers have not taken anything from you at all. yes they did make a mod that edits mods and makes them more compatable with each other but they only edit things like block id's and code rendering to make things smoother. forge has its own chunk loader built in which was made by a great guy called chickenbones he is a wonderfull coder. he made not enough items which is not a ripoff btw (there is proof) and he wrote a beautyfull code for chunk loading that so far is the best that i have used. there is a whole team of wonderfull people working there selfs to exaustion to get this to work as perfectlly as they can. hmm that kinda sounds like team mojang ha ha they are both motivated by the people who play minecraft and they work hard to get things acomplished. i wish i had never read this post by someone that knows nuthing and thinks he or she knows it all. forge was designed to make mods work together. if i gave you the choice of one mod to work with or 20 of your favorite mods minus one because it is not compatible. which would you choose???? well most would either forget the misbehaving mod or try to find a way around it but in most cases you forget the 1 mod. you insult these authors by posting this topic and three of them are people you like (eloraam, cpw, risugami).
What does the person(s) who made ModLoader have to say about FML? Are they upset? Did they support it? Really, that is the only persons opinion I would like to hear about the issue.
the author of modloader was the one who write the fml his name is risugami. for more information you can find it in the zip file of forge.
go into the zip file and scroll down untill you see the file called: CREDITS-fml.txt and right click it then you need to look for open with and select notepad. if you read this it tells you some of the people who made forge.
I disagree. Forge has made things a lot easier. Simply because you couldn't have forge and mod loader together in one .jar file. With the new forge FML than I can use all mods for modloader and forge. It's great! I don't understand why people have to complain about change. Change is a good thing. Everything will change for better especially in minecrafts case. The only thing that would change for the worst would be that the devs stop making minecraft. BUT I doubt that would happen considering how many people like and love it. There would be a public outrage lol.
Updates at twitter: https://twitter.com/luacs1998
In these cases, you've got a lot of stuff Forge does that's not necessary, it's just bloat.
Also, What bloat... Minecraft runs just as fast with Forge installed... If not faster when you start adding mods.
Anyway, by bloat I mean I can't think of any reason for certain mods like Pam's HarvestCraft and Better Than Wolves to be incompatible with one another for any reason other than one uses Forge and one doesn't.
Now, I have to really compliment the guys who wrote FML on Forge. FML is great, and maybe they can add in some of Forge's super-core functionalities like item/block ids to FML to create something of a Forge Lite that offers greater compatibility at the cost of potentially requiring a bit more jar editing.
Yeah, that's the ENTIRE point of Forge from the beginning, a giant compatibility patch and API for all mods out there to use.
For Better Than Wolves, that's FlowerChild's own decision.
And no, it's never gonna happen. FML serves only as a loader, and Forge as the API.
And compatibility, you say? Yeah, as far as I understand, Forge/FML should be, and is, thanks to the hard work of cpw, compatible with almost all ModLoader mods, and if otherwise, they should be compatible with us as far as possible.
Updates at twitter: https://twitter.com/luacs1998
Jarmods - This is a class of mod that edits base files, whether they use an API like ModLoader or Forge or SomethingMythical, if they make base edits, they are a jarmod. Since a jarmod edits base files it will inherently be incompatible with other jarmods that make edits to the same base files, even if those edits are for a different purpose. In essence, any mod that makes base edits is actively not caring about compatibility as the very act of making base edits means that the mod *will* be incompatible at some point.
ModLoader - Is a jarmod that acts as a very thin API making a small amount of base edits to allow mods to achieve adding in basic classes such as new blocks or items and so forth. Its API does not allow for a good deal of functionality, hence why many ModLoader mods end up turning in to jarmods, and by doing so they instantly lose a great deal of compatibility. This is not an open-source mod and has no license that allows distribution, thus you require authorization directly from the author to redstribute. In essence, a mod can make calls 'to' modloader to do something in the base classes instead of needing to make those changes itself. Without modloader you could only, for example, have one mod that adds new blocks since they would conflict otherwise (it is more complicated than this, but this is the gist of why it exists).
'Clean Mod' - is a set of classes that are loaded by some form of mod loader, that then make callbacks to a mod loader to perform functionality within the Minecraft system, such as registering a new block type. If a mod starts to make edits to base files due to the limitation of the mod loader it is using, it then is no longer a clean mod and becomes a jarmod, thus losing potential compatibility with anything that edits the same base classes.
ForgeModLoader - Is a jarmod that performs similar, but different functionality to ModLoader. It does do everything ModLoader does, but it is a clean room implementation (meaning it was made only be seeing how mods 'use' modloader, but without looking at modloader itself) of modloader, however it also adds in higher functionality. One of its defining characteristics other than adding a few new hooks above beyond ModLoader is the concept of a 'coremod'.
FML CoreMod - Is a type of mod that can be loaded like a normal mod, however it makes minor edits due the java class bytecode for only what it needs. Basically this allows a mod to make a base edit, without actually editing the base class files. Since coremods are to add their own custom hooks it should always remain compatible with any other coremods. Jarmods, since they edit base files themselves, are still wholly incompatible due to the poor design of such a mod.
Given these definitions, it should be obvious why any mod that is a jarmod is inherently of poor design since it would not remain compatible with anything else that edits similar base classes. Thus it makes sense to create a set of hooks to let multiple mods interact with similar functionality to the base system, and since you need a hook to begin these classes to load you would then create a loader as well, hence a Mod Loader is born. The single-authors Mod Loader's capabilities are highly limited since it cannot possible fulfill the desire of every single base edit of every single mod out, thus a group of mod authors come together and combine what is needed to make an expanded set of hooks, hence Forge was born. Forge allowed any modder to submit new hooks, and after cleaning them up and making them properly generic for maximal usage the new hook is then added to the ecosystem for use by any and all other mod authors. The other mod authors, by seeing what hooks are available, get new ideas for new gameplay mechanics and it drives creativity even higher. However these hooks, although useful in preventing base edits and encouraging compatibility, still do not let the mods properly work together as there are a multitude of ways to access inventories, a multitude of identical blocks such as new ores amongst the mods. You then start creating compatibility layers on top of the hooks to allow for identical things in different mods to be treated as one, such as the Forge Ore Dictionary, which allows for any block or item to be registered by a unique name such as 'ore.copper' and any other mod that has a copper block can use yours and vice versa with no extra work required, thus increasing compatibility even further. These layers help reduce a massive amount of programming that would otherwise be needed by the modders by consolidating it in to a single, useful location, thus saving time. More ideas such as this are thought of and included and it spurs creativity even further.
Now, say there is a mod that edits a base class that forge also uses, by this mod being so poorly made so as to use a base edit that suddenly prevents an entire eco-system of mod authors that work well together from running with this mod, all because this one mod was not made well enough. Not that it is a big thing in any case, there are many mod ideas, and many programmers, and new ones coming all the time, and with the information available it is quite obvious that proper programming methods help let everything work together. In essence, just staying away from becoming a jarmod means that you should remain fully compatible with all non-jarmods, which is good, since jarmods themselves are not compatible with other jarmods either.
The question of bloat is also an odd one. The API's exposed do not cost anything if not used, and the designs presented can even make the game run faster. So the question is actually 'why not'? Only thing it could possibly break is a jarmod, of which is already designed to be incompatible anyway.
So why would anyone be 'for' jarmods when by their very design they try to break compatibility? When using a proper API can reduce the work that the modder does, and helps them at many turns? That is no doubt a question of intellect. A little research can go a very long way.
Instead of receiving help. i was cursed at and threatened when i asked how to find the crash report. Since then, i have deleted my account with them.
I must say, always search before you post.
Updates at twitter: https://twitter.com/luacs1998
How is exposing code bloat? I always find this argument against forge laughable. If your saying it edits too many base classes making it incompatable with other mods, 1 that should be a problem with the other mods not forge, 2 everyone of those base class edits are required for multiple mods, that without forge would not work together
It would seem your understanding of the modding scene is a touch off base. Modders do things primarily for the fun of it, and secondarily for the entertainment of the community. If they weren't having fun, they would be doing other things. Forge was written because the Forge team has a passion for Minecraft not to simulate a totalitarian monopoly on an imaginary market.
FlowerChild left Forge because Eloram was adding a bunch of hooks that didn't suit his needs, which he felt would bloat Minecraft considerably for people who weren't using them. Additionally, working alongside the Forge team wasn't allowing him to work at his own pace as it seemed to him as though Eloram was focused on adding features that would help with Red Power, and such.
Enter that and you'll score one hundred thousand rupees for us both, along with a spiffy card!
edit: also, BTW has yet to crash on me, and vanilla has.
actually, he does focus on incompatiblity. It's kind of funny really, that hibachi grill thingy, that i personally think is acutally well coded on it's own, is coded into the [profanity="fuck"]ing fire base class. this means your whole world gets [profanity="fuck"]ed over if you uninstall btw with any kind of fire on it, hibachi or otherwise, even if it was a lightning fire. And the reason he left forge is kind of selfish actually, he claims it was because forge was modifying too many base classes, but the real reason is that he didn't want compatiblity with other forge mods. Why? One word: Technic. He flipped his lid over technic so far, that he actually removed forge compatiblity JUST SO THAT HIS MOD WOULDN'T WORK WITH OTHER FORGE MODS. So that people don't even really even want to bother with redistributing it.
reapersremorse
the author of modloader was the one who write the fml his name is risugami. for more information you can find it in the zip file of forge.
go into the zip file and scroll down untill you see the file called: CREDITS-fml.txt and right click it then you need to look for open with and select notepad. if you read this it tells you some of the people who made forge.
this is what it says
You can find the source code at all times at
https://github.com/cpw/FML
This minecraft mod is a clean open source implementation of a mod loader for
minecraft servers, minecraft bukkit servers, and minecraft clients.
The code is authored by cpw.
It implements API defined by the client side ModLoader, authored by Risugami.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/75440-
It also contains suggestions and hints from LexManos, author of MinecraftForge.
http://www.mod-buildcraft.com/forums/forum/minecraft-forge/
Finally, it contains an implementation of topological sort based on that
published at
http://keithschwarz.com/interesting/code/?dir=topological-sort
this information is not mine i recieved it from the minecraft forge zip file.
No... CPW made FML. Risugami still maintains ModLoader.