Except since it says that once we purchase the game, it's ours with no DRM.... so we could very well do something like this, which, despite Notch's plans to restrict use of server mods, is clearly possible, and since there WILL be game modes that are exclusive for purchasers, assuming that the restrictions here are similar to most games I'm used, that being the server files are available to everyone to do with as they please, but is only truly usable if you own the game.
No, we can't have free players playing pay exclusive content, but it should be well within fair use to create extra server commands and server mods. The server mods would of course be limited depending on whether it's a free server or not, I'm sure Notch can figure out a way to make it possible to enable the LUA to do everything we want within the feature tier [free or paid].
DRM is the software behind preventing pirates cracking the game. Just because it's not physically there to stop you, doesn't mean you should abuse that fact.
If you’ve bought the game, you can do pretty much anything, but there’s one major rule:
Do not distribute anything I’ve made, or modified versions of anything I’ve made. I want all client and server downloads to come from minecraft.net.
I don’t wish to lose control of this project, and definitely not before it’s been finished.
As pointed out on irc, this clashes a bit with modding support at the moment, but some kind of server api is planned and coming sooner or later when I feel better.
So keep in mind that distributing [modified] clients and servers not only is illegal, it’s against my wishes.
This said, if you write a custom server and let people play on it, that’s very cool and just adds content to the game. =D
As far as I'm aware this means: Build whatever you like, he wants to see awesome things created but DO NOT distribute them.
But you're not abusing the DRM-free content unless you are making paid features available to free players. Extra server features like tiered OPs, extra admin commands, and some block types doesn't break that, it enhances the experience.
If we have cracked survival mode, I could then understand Notch being upset.
Which is why Notch should host this or somethin', team up so this can be distributed. :biggrin.gif: ... or we be patient enough to wait for the api to be released THEN be excited about it.. :sad.gif: Suppose we cooooouuuld do that...
At any rate, the game is still Minecraft, and the experience remains fairly in tact, does it not?
I doubt Notch will make it super easy to make huge changes to the game once the LUA stuff is out, and he can control what gets changed and how, but hopefully we'll be able to do things like this even then... which as I already commented on above, would be great as long as there's a way to restrict certain things being available on the free client... I don't see how that wouldn't be possible.
I apologize if I sound like I'm totally against restricting content features, I'm not.
But I am a long time gamer and come from games such as Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Team Fortress 2, and even Battlefield 2, where as long as you owned the game, mods of both the client and server are widely available and can do just about anything and most enhance the user's experience in either server features or yes even changing the game play [ex. GunGame for CS:S]
That's the only point I'm trying to make here, is that I remain hopeful that once the game is fully released we aren't completely restricted from things such as this.
Clearly Notch wants us to be able to do stuff or else he wouldn't be planning the LUA scripting, so time will tell what we can and can't do.
Notch wants scripting, but he doesn't want people riding off his creation before he has a chance to finish it. What JTE is doing is building gamemodes before Notch and offering them to free users, making purchasing the game pointless because you can get if for free. See why we don't like it?
I've tried to make it clear that I understand the game mode part. I think I rushed into the conversation at first, and having just woken up made some random ass comments,
so I apologize for that.
The game modes are sketchy. If he did distribute it and Notch will probably no doubt find a way to patch it, it would be misleading for people who expect what they found in JTE flavor servers. Not to mention that it's changing the "demo", into something it was not intended to be. That's of course beyond sketchy, so JTE should keep that to himself.... On the other hand, Since I'm sure Notch can find a way to patch it at a later date securing the coding holes and opening it up for the API instead, it would get more people interested in the game perhaps people who became bored of the building alone, or others who have simply not tried the game yet.
BUUUUT the main reason I'm here posting in this thread is because I'd love, as I'm sure everyone yourselves included, to get my hands on the extra admin controls and stuff, even the extra blocks.
With just those tools, [minus the blocks perhaps since that riding the line], JTE could release a nice server admin add-on.
I think what Notch needs to do is take that blog post, which will be / has been buried [or even over looked as I read the blog and missed that specific post] on a blog that not every player/purchaser will read, and post it right on the main website. Both on the buy page and some sort of information page. It's important and should be there for everyone to read.
I have nothing but respect for Notch and I love the game to bits, I've spent so many unmentionable hours playing... I am no means trying to encourage behavior that would go against Notch's wishes.
Lastly, once the game is complete and the LUA API is available, etc... Will we be able to then make our own gamemodes? It seems Notch like Notch wouldn't mind/encourage it so long as the game code prevents free players from accessing this content, but I do feel like I have to ask.
Notch wants scripting, but he doesn't want people riding off his creation before he has a chance to finish it. What JTE is doing is building gamemodes before Notch and offering them to free users, making purchasing the game pointless because you can get if for free. See why we don't like it?
Those gamemodes are merely ideas, though. Something that could very well not even happen. He's basically being accused for something he hasn't done (yet?) and I'm sure he would stop production on the gamemodes which are remotely like the ones Notch has planned.
And speaking of that, in his post, I can only see one thing that even remotely resembles one of Notch's gamemodes is that resource gathering gamemode. If you mention the Infection thing, JTE didn't even have that planned (and still may not) until Zuriki mentioned it. The only gamemodes that JTE has planned (besides the resource gathering one, which he could stop making.) that free players would have access to are ones that Notch doesn't have planned. Just my two cents, I guess.
I discussed the premise of the idea with JTE on the IRC, and state specifically what would happen to it. So don't confuse this as a change of heart. I never intended for the game mode to be permanent. As I have said, whilst the game is as it is. I have no objection to him opening up the infection game mode, but just not once Lua is implemented as a paid-only feature.
Notch wants scripting, but he doesn't want people riding off his creation before he has a chance to finish it. What JTE is doing is building gamemodes before Notch and offering them to free users, making purchasing the game pointless because you can get if for free. See why we don't like it?
Those gamemodes are merely ideas, though. Something that could very well not even happen. He's basically being accused for something he hasn't done (yet?) and I'm sure he would stop production on the gamemodes which are remotely like the ones Notch has planned.
Nobody is accusing him of anything, it has just been made clear that any attempt to reproduce any ideas of notchs and distribute them will not be tolerated and will result in "action". That's what has been said, nothing more.
Quote from Kinhoshi »
And speaking of that, in his post, I can only see one thing that even remotely resembles one of Notch's gamemodes is that resource gathering gamemode. If you mention the Infection thing, JTE didn't even have that planned (and still may not) until Zuriki mentioned it. The only gamemodes that JTE has planned (besides the resource gathering one) that free players would have access to are ones that Notch doesn't have planned. Just my two cents, I guess.
Notch doesn't want any game mode besides default sandbox available to anyone who isn't paid, distributing this server client will allow that. We're focusing on survival because we know that will exist.
I never intended for the game mode to be permanent.
I know, but that was basically my point. All of the planned stuff is merely ideas for now. It just seems like people are acting as if the planned things are set in stone, is what I'm trying to say. :S
Quote from criticsquid »
Notch doesn't want any game mode besides default sandbox available to anyone who isn't paid, distributing this server client will allow that. We're focusing on survival because we know that will exist.
Ah, I guess I just confused from this debate and figured any non-official things would be okay to distribute.
Notch needs legal power if he wants to stop things like this. The ALMIGHTY FORCE of the notch bumbuddy duo (you know who you are) is hardly going to do anything. Notch could prevent this if his server was the better one, but it's not. MMO's are the main games with alternate server problems, and yet people still pay for them, why? Because the paid ones are better, some people just don't care though.
Notch needs legal power if he wants to stop things like this.
We can limit such events occurring and becoming mainstream but yes this is correct.
Quote from Phil »
The ALMIGHTY FORCE of the notch bumbuddy duo (you know who you are) is hardly going to do anything.
Presuming you're talking about me and Citric here. I don't take lightly to personal insults, but I'll let it slide just this once to explain that we are basically OFFICIAL staff when it comes to running the Minecraft forums, which are in turn an extension of the game itself. So technically it's part of our duty to serve Notch's wishes when doing our job on the forums. Call it sucking up to him or whatever you want. But if I were to simply say "Yeah, it's 'kay do whatever you want Notch doesn't even check these forums anyway he doesn't know what dirty deeds you do". Notch would very quickly become pissed at us and sever connection to the forums and move the community back into another forum HE runs.
Quote from Phil »
Notch could prevent this if his server was the better one, but it's not. MMO's are the main games with alternate server problems, and yet people still pay for them, why? Because the paid ones are better, some people just don't care though.
Exactly the point we're making. If it was better to be free (or equal experience for the end-user, why would you bother paying at all?
The point is to market the game to a free audience with limit features to entice them in with all these extra magical features!
Besides, there is currently no way for the server to tell the difference between premium users and standard users in the first place, aside from one unused byte in the login packet which is currently always (to my knowledge) set to 0. Even citricsquid can't tell the difference outside of having custom skins; That said, custom skins is still the only concrete benefit (i.e. not a promise) of purchasing at the moment and I have done NOTHING to undermine that.
I haven't released my server script yet partially because it is still broken and constantly needs to be watched, can't have a decent uptime, and I'm still not comfortable with having to make it open-source. A big part of the reason why I want to reprogram it in C will be to allow me to keep the source myself, in addition to gaining efficiency and possibly even applying a Lua API of my own (perhaps direct support for Notch's API when we know more about it).
I'll also change the /nick and /onick commands to just adding colors to names for different admin levels, and keep everything that Notch decides to limit free users with. I have no ill intentions and find it quite disturbing that you are still constantly and consistently speaking of how eager you are to banish me and anyone else who does anything like me despite how openly you add ideas to my pool of things to do here, especially how specifically (and quite firmly) Zuriki is encouraging me to make a "zombie infection" mode which is quite clearly a less-detailed ripoff of what Notch is planning to do.
If it comes to that, and I'm afraid it might, I actually have also been working on my own client all along. In control of the client, the server, and vastly updating the protocol, it will be my own game, I just thought the people here might be interested.
I believe I was very misunderstood with what I said on IRC that day, and it hurts. I don't mean to "steal customers", not at all. I'm only using this forum (which was not made by Notch yet still gets to be considered official; Why can't my server be considered 'official' too, then?) to find the audience who might be interested as I have been inspired to create similar things, all from scratch.
In any case, being constantly and completely outright attacked like this is why I often prefer not to say anything in the first place. >_>
In any case, being constantly and completely outright attacked like this is why I often prefer not to say anything in the first place. >_>
Nobody is attacking you, I personally feel what you're doing really is awesome but it's undeniable that if you released the source code along with the ideas mentioned in this thread implemented you'd be making it pointless to purchase the full game. I purchased the game to support Notch, not specifically to get all the paid stuff, but there are many many gamers who if given the option would go for the free option, so if you allow people to run a server that doesn't require them to be paid for "perks", like skins and new gamemodes you're esentially "stealing" from Notch because less people will pay, that is an undeniable fact.
I really like what you've done, but I wouldn't be comfortable with encouraging or even allowing the distribution of such a script when it would detract from what Notch has done. It's not related to you personally in any way, you're awesome :3
Okay then, if it's all about money, I will openly offer the entire script to anyone who asks for it, with a small licensing fee and no warranties of any future support. Anyone obtaining a copy from me can make whatever game changes and custom block types they want and run whatever servers they want, and it will all be moot when Notch makes an update in a week that breaks it all and would need to be updated and fixed by me but I won't be around to fix it because I'll be banned for simply being too awesome and generally a very good fellow for you to handle.
Like you're being an ass. Yes, go on say I'm attacking you now. Because I am and I intend to do so until you stop acting like an ass. You're doing nothing to help the game at all and you're being naive to the point we're making. YOU ARE DAMAGING THE GAME IF YOU MAKE PAID FOR THINGS FREE.
Seriously, I've grown tired of you incapacity to understand that, it's really getting on my nerves - personally.
I doubt you'd be happy if you made a game that you were trying to sell and I just cracked it and made it free and offered it to all your community. I think you'd be damn right pissed off with me, with good reason. I'm destroy a source of income.
YET. That's flippin' point. We said IF you make additional game modes open to free users (Keyword: IF - Tense Future Conditional) then you'd be damaging the game.
No, we can't have free players playing pay exclusive content, but it should be well within fair use to create extra server commands and server mods. The server mods would of course be limited depending on whether it's a free server or not, I'm sure Notch can figure out a way to make it possible to enable the LUA to do everything we want within the feature tier [free or paid].
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/137683043/ ... -minecraft
As far as I'm aware this means: Build whatever you like, he wants to see awesome things created but DO NOT distribute them.
If we have cracked survival mode, I could then understand Notch being upset.
Which is why Notch should host this or somethin', team up so this can be distributed. :biggrin.gif: ... or we be patient enough to wait for the api to be released THEN be excited about it.. :sad.gif: Suppose we cooooouuuld do that...
At any rate, the game is still Minecraft, and the experience remains fairly in tact, does it not?
I doubt Notch will make it super easy to make huge changes to the game once the LUA stuff is out, and he can control what gets changed and how, but hopefully we'll be able to do things like this even then... which as I already commented on above, would be great as long as there's a way to restrict certain things being available on the free client... I don't see how that wouldn't be possible.
But I am a long time gamer and come from games such as Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Team Fortress 2, and even Battlefield 2, where as long as you owned the game, mods of both the client and server are widely available and can do just about anything and most enhance the user's experience in either server features or yes even changing the game play [ex. GunGame for CS:S]
That's the only point I'm trying to make here, is that I remain hopeful that once the game is fully released we aren't completely restricted from things such as this.
Clearly Notch wants us to be able to do stuff or else he wouldn't be planning the LUA scripting, so time will tell what we can and can't do.
so I apologize for that.
The game modes are sketchy. If he did distribute it and Notch will probably no doubt find a way to patch it, it would be misleading for people who expect what they found in JTE flavor servers. Not to mention that it's changing the "demo", into something it was not intended to be. That's of course beyond sketchy, so JTE should keep that to himself.... On the other hand, Since I'm sure Notch can find a way to patch it at a later date securing the coding holes and opening it up for the API instead, it would get more people interested in the game perhaps people who became bored of the building alone, or others who have simply not tried the game yet.
BUUUUT the main reason I'm here posting in this thread is because I'd love, as I'm sure everyone yourselves included, to get my hands on the extra admin controls and stuff, even the extra blocks.
With just those tools, [minus the blocks perhaps since that riding the line], JTE could release a nice server admin add-on.
I think what Notch needs to do is take that blog post, which will be / has been buried [or even over looked as I read the blog and missed that specific post] on a blog that not every player/purchaser will read, and post it right on the main website. Both on the buy page and some sort of information page. It's important and should be there for everyone to read.
I have nothing but respect for Notch and I love the game to bits, I've spent so many unmentionable hours playing... I am no means trying to encourage behavior that would go against Notch's wishes.
Lastly, once the game is complete and the LUA API is available, etc... Will we be able to then make our own gamemodes? It seems Notch like Notch wouldn't mind/encourage it so long as the game code prevents free players from accessing this content, but I do feel like I have to ask.
Those gamemodes are merely ideas, though. Something that could very well not even happen. He's basically being accused for something he hasn't done (yet?) and I'm sure he would stop production on the gamemodes which are remotely like the ones Notch has planned.
And speaking of that, in his post, I can only see one thing that even remotely resembles one of Notch's gamemodes is that resource gathering gamemode. If you mention the Infection thing, JTE didn't even have that planned (and still may not) until Zuriki mentioned it. The only gamemodes that JTE has planned (besides the resource gathering one, which he could stop making.) that free players would have access to are ones that Notch doesn't have planned. Just my two cents, I guess.
Nobody is accusing him of anything, it has just been made clear that any attempt to reproduce any ideas of notchs and distribute them will not be tolerated and will result in "action". That's what has been said, nothing more.
Notch doesn't want any game mode besides default sandbox available to anyone who isn't paid, distributing this server client will allow that. We're focusing on survival because we know that will exist.
I know, but that was basically my point. All of the planned stuff is merely ideas for now. It just seems like people are acting as if the planned things are set in stone, is what I'm trying to say. :S
Ah, I guess I just confused from this debate and figured any non-official things would be okay to distribute.
We can limit such events occurring and becoming mainstream but yes this is correct.
Presuming you're talking about me and Citric here. I don't take lightly to personal insults, but I'll let it slide just this once to explain that we are basically OFFICIAL staff when it comes to running the Minecraft forums, which are in turn an extension of the game itself. So technically it's part of our duty to serve Notch's wishes when doing our job on the forums. Call it sucking up to him or whatever you want. But if I were to simply say "Yeah, it's 'kay do whatever you want Notch doesn't even check these forums anyway he doesn't know what dirty deeds you do". Notch would very quickly become pissed at us and sever connection to the forums and move the community back into another forum HE runs.
Exactly the point we're making. If it was better to be free (or equal experience for the end-user, why would you bother paying at all?
The point is to market the game to a free audience with limit features to entice them in with all these extra magical features!
I haven't released my server script yet partially because it is still broken and constantly needs to be watched, can't have a decent uptime, and I'm still not comfortable with having to make it open-source. A big part of the reason why I want to reprogram it in C will be to allow me to keep the source myself, in addition to gaining efficiency and possibly even applying a Lua API of my own (perhaps direct support for Notch's API when we know more about it).
I'll also change the /nick and /onick commands to just adding colors to names for different admin levels, and keep everything that Notch decides to limit free users with. I have no ill intentions and find it quite disturbing that you are still constantly and consistently speaking of how eager you are to banish me and anyone else who does anything like me despite how openly you add ideas to my pool of things to do here, especially how specifically (and quite firmly) Zuriki is encouraging me to make a "zombie infection" mode which is quite clearly a less-detailed ripoff of what Notch is planning to do.
If it comes to that, and I'm afraid it might, I actually have also been working on my own client all along. In control of the client, the server, and vastly updating the protocol, it will be my own game, I just thought the people here might be interested.
I believe I was very misunderstood with what I said on IRC that day, and it hurts. I don't mean to "steal customers", not at all. I'm only using this forum (which was not made by Notch yet still gets to be considered official; Why can't my server be considered 'official' too, then?) to find the audience who might be interested as I have been inspired to create similar things, all from scratch.
In any case, being constantly and completely outright attacked like this is why I often prefer not to say anything in the first place. >_>
Nobody is attacking you, I personally feel what you're doing really is awesome but it's undeniable that if you released the source code along with the ideas mentioned in this thread implemented you'd be making it pointless to purchase the full game. I purchased the game to support Notch, not specifically to get all the paid stuff, but there are many many gamers who if given the option would go for the free option, so if you allow people to run a server that doesn't require them to be paid for "perks", like skins and new gamemodes you're esentially "stealing" from Notch because less people will pay, that is an undeniable fact.
I really like what you've done, but I wouldn't be comfortable with encouraging or even allowing the distribution of such a script when it would detract from what Notch has done. It's not related to you personally in any way, you're awesome :3
How's that sound?
Like you're being an ass. Yes, go on say I'm attacking you now. Because I am and I intend to do so until you stop acting like an ass. You're doing nothing to help the game at all and you're being naive to the point we're making. YOU ARE DAMAGING THE GAME IF YOU MAKE PAID FOR THINGS FREE.
Seriously, I've grown tired of you incapacity to understand that, it's really getting on my nerves - personally.
I doubt you'd be happy if you made a game that you were trying to sell and I just cracked it and made it free and offered it to all your community. I think you'd be damn right pissed off with me, with good reason. I'm destroy a source of income.
I have not done so in any way whatsoever. It's that simple.