Well just mostly consider the fact that if Thaumcraft did this, it would be pretty much the only mod to ever do tha, which sounds cool, but really isn't.
I don't reject the idea of a slightly more elaborate cheat sheet or support to make the transferring of things from one world to the other easier, but it doesn't change the fact that immediately unlocking stuff from a mod in a new world without doing anything for it is simply cheating.
Notice also how Minecraft achievements are no longer independent either. To me this is a clear sign, that Mojang themselves share the concept of worlds being completely separate realities.
immediately unlocking stuff from a mod in a new world without doing anything for it is simply cheating.
Notice also how Minecraft achievements are no longer independent either. To me this is a clear sign, that Mojang themselves share the concept of worlds being completely separate realities.
again this is just an opinion not a fact. achievements and statistics being per world have nothing to do with ingame concepts of reality, its simply making the game more modularized from a players perspective, i mean its not like "Steve" is in anyway affected by the achievements, there just there keep track of occurrences associated with that file.
when evaluating a student(the world) its more helpful to know the extent of the students knowledge(world stats/achievements) than the classes knowledge as a whole(cumulative stats/ achievements). likening achievements being related to in-game "lore/setting" as has been done disregards the fourth wall, like if the reason halo 5 was xbox one exclusive was because the characters don't like the ps4 controler. its a little silly.
though as Sweet_Brew mentioned the only lore being affected is Thaumcraft's, and even Thaumcraft's is somewhat undetermined.
it is nice to be able to have a civil chat on the internet about things as ridiculous as this. i quite enjoy it XD
I've been racking my brain trying to think of a solution for this. Suggestions are welcome
Pfft. Easy. Multiple types of research pages (that is, puzzle types) possible that random roll when you first create the page, data of which type it is would be stored in the research page. As for the design... I can't help you there haha
I dont think its nice be like "I did an exploitable mechanic, and you have two choices, either do not install the mod, even if you want to, or spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure how to constantly defend the information from hacking. Thats like one of the most rude things to do to a server host
My suggestion about the transition is: when you get in your thaumonomicon, you can get a string which simply compresses all the researches status to a text measure, and you can type that string in the special item or special page on the thaumonomicon, and the way server holders can prevent people from getting an item/page could be uncraftability, and you can only cheat it or add that page by a cheated item, or configurability of whether it is obtainable by the gameplay or not (spawned in hand as you open the thaumonimicon for the first time or whatever)
I really like the idea of active research. Even unlocking things over time with the right items in the scanner, even. But doing the thaumcraft research on a server with players who aren't doing thaumcraft currently results in a lot of scribbling around in a basement while everyone else explores and does things. Sure you can turn on levels or RP purchasing options, but then you still had to run around scanning and combining elements and so on and so forth... and then there's no research at all.
There's a happy medium and I think Azanor is still approaching it. TC3 was about dumping things into a research table and hoping you'd get notes. There used to be hidden research you could ONLY get from knowledge fragments. Meant if you couldn't find fragments, those things were just lost to you.
I like the relatively change that certain scannable things are gateways. I would like it to be possible to find completed research papers, or to craft them with fragments.
I didn't get into costs and drawbacks because I figure Azanor is pretty good at that. But certainly, forbidden knowledge would have the usual effects (all of the warp), and there could be general costs. Given that this would be set up in a safe base, any version of "hurt/status the player" would be pretty much a speed bump, with possible diversion to your bed. But there could certainly be material, vis, and/or essentia costs.
...Well, true, unless you're playing hardcore there's not much real penalty in your base even for dying. But still.
Notice also how Minecraft achievements are no longer independent either. To me this is a clear sign, that Mojang themselves share the concept of worlds being completely separate realities.
A bit off topic, but the thing that always irritated me about Minecraft achievements was that they are so linear and deterministic. You CANNOT get an achievement without first getting all the prior achievements that lead up to it. ALL of them.
For the longest time, when I was starting out, I never even actually realized that Minecraft had an achievements system because I never bothered making a wooden sword. I went straight to stone.
A bit off topic, but the thing that always irritated me about Minecraft achievements was that they are so linear and deterministic. You CANNOT get an achievement without first getting all the prior achievements that lead up to it. ALL of them.
For the longest time, when I was starting out, I never even actually realized that Minecraft had an achievements system because I never bothered making a wooden sword. I went straight to stone.
Yeah, they were meant as kind of a step-by-step tutorial I think. That's also how most mods set their achievements up. Thaumcraft has a far superior tutorial, once you got your hands on a Thaumonomicon, but the concept is pretty much the same. In Thaumcraft the achievements are actually not just an external reward mechanic, but actually have a meaning in the game itself, which makes them so much more immersive.
Wooden tools have the advantage of being fuel, though. So crafting is not a complete waste. But even though the achievements here actually have an impact on the gameplay, I still see them in the same way as the achievements in other mods.
Pfft. Easy. Multiple types of research pages (that is, puzzle types) possible that random roll when you first create the page, data of which type it is would be stored in the research page. As for the design... I can't help you there haha
I know this sounds like alot to ask but I 100% back this idea and i would love to see the return of the older research mini-games, or at-least having a new research mini-game to play with
I think what you could do is have a Thaumcraft Research Achievement page that's just a bunch of individual items to build; not chained together like the standard minecraft achievements. The game tells you a minor hint as to what items grant research, you go about and make them. Less scanning, more hands on. Plus, just finding something isn't always enough to research it; gotta break it down, put it back together, that sort of thing.
I think that best possible way to do research would be to have it be an in-world process, but this would also make it MUCH more difficult to write. What I was thinking would be to have several "mini" versions of the standard Thaumcraft crafting stations (I say "mini" in quotes because my sample of the setup is larger than all the stations except for the infusion altar) , that are specifically for research. The actual research station would no longer be a place where you would put paper and ink, but would have a slot for 2 items: standard research notes and "experiment data". The player would be able to select researches in the Thaumonomicon to get research notes like normal, and place these in the research table. In the research table, where there used to be a minigame, a list of items and aspects relating to the research would be shown (For example, if the player was researching Nitor, glowstone and torches would be shown, as well as Ignis, Lux, and Potentia). Now, the player would go to the mini-table corresponding to the type of item, and give it one combination of an item and an aspect, and the output of this table would be sent to an "analyzer table", which will take the output and generate an "experiment data sheet". Continuing with the Nitor example, the player would throw a combination like a piece of glowstone and 2 ignis worth items into the "alchemy experiment kit", a modified crucible which doesn't output items, but when these items are thrown in, it outputs some special flux gas. The gas then flows up and is collected by a "fume analyzer," which takes in the gas as well as paper and ink and generate a sheet of experiment data. The experiment is then repeated with different combinations of items and essentia, and when a number of knowledge notes from different combinations, the exact number being determined by the type of research and if the player has researched "research mastery", the player will unlock the research. (For example, the player could be required to do 4 different experiments to unlock Nitor without reseach mastery).
It would be a long, slow process, but it would be more fun than a simple minigame and would advance the idea that this is actually research.
I think the research should be more manual and proactive, I mean:
In TC3 the research was just providing your character with resources and he handled the research
In TC4 you just connected some ideas he had into a research by aranging glyphs into a shape
In TC5 you connect the knowledge he collected in the game, to give him a higher level of understanding by connecting thenodes with the knowledge points (witch in my opinion makes the least sense, but is mechanically kinda similar to the TC4 one).
Luckilly, I have been cooking up my own ideas for a TC-style research system, so I'll just put my latest one here and you can use it(or use it as an inspiration) if you want:
My idea for for TC6 could be a more manual version of a deconstruction table:
1. You examine basic materials to gain knowledge about them on the research table, unlock the basic research in the thaumonomicon (like scanning stuff in the thaumometer did before)
2. Deconstructing items you find (that you don't know how to make) in the research table creates a full schematic of the item (and/or destroy the item), making the research for them easier.
If you don't have the required knowledge to unlock the research (for example thaumium for thaumic tools), the slots will be missing (making it a partial schematic)
3. You can get a research sketch for an item with the thaumonomicon, placing it on the research table shows a sketch of the item you are making with empty slots for materials used to make it, each slot has it's own puzzle which colours in a part of the picture, revealing the material in the slot, which is used to make the item in the research, turning it into an increasingly complete research schematic.
If you have a schematic but don't have the knowledge about one of the materials (see 2.), the puzzle will be missing/scrambled, preventing you from completing them out of order (this could be optional, you could enable it in the config).
4. Placing the research schematic into a tinkering workbench shows the picture of the item (or a half finished picture, if all the puzzles weren't completed).
The slots with completed puzzles show the crafting material the item is made from, but the ones without the finished puzzles only have hints about the material it should contain (maybe less hints the harder thee research is?).
Placing the correct material in the slot adds a border to the slot, adding more detail to the part of the picture of the schematic it represents (maybe some math looking writing or some tiny illegible measurements?) and colors it in if it wasn't.
Placing the wrong item in the slot consumes the item, but doesn't unlock anything (maybe adds more hints if it's a similar item to the correct one?).
Placing all the required materials in all the slots of the schematic turns it into a research blueprint (and the player's username appears as a signature on the bottom corner of the picture).
5. Using the blueprint unlocks the knowledge in the thaumonomicon (lorewise you just stick the blueprint into the thaumonomicon and add some text).
If you already know the research (or made a copy of it from the thaumonomicon) you can place it in an item frame to have the research as a picture on a wall.
This way you can either spend time solving puzzles to understand how something works, than using your knowledge to determine the perfect matrials to construct something, or just sketch it than spend loads of resources tinkering untill you get it right for more proactive players (or look it up on the wiki for people who hate research), maybe some explosions could happen as a result of really wild guessing.
Also there could be a "scholar's mode" in the config that would require a full schematic to make a blueprint, for servers where the GM doesn't want players to just look all the knowledge online.
Um, sorry for the wall of text, but that's the short version.
PS: And the purely theoretical researches, like aura tapping, solving the puzzles would turn the sketch into a research theory, which can be put into the thaumonomical like a blueprint.
Or maybe you have to solve a puzzle by putting your wand into the tinkering workbench (not consumed) and solving a puzzle around it (learning how to apply the theory).
I think that best possible way to do research would be to have it be an in-world process, but this would also make it MUCH more difficult to write. What I was thinking would be to have several "mini" versions of the standard Thaumcraft crafting stations (I say "mini" in quotes because my sample of the setup is larger than all the stations except for the infusion altar) , that are specifically for research. The actual research station would no longer be a place where you would put paper and ink, but would have a slot for 2 items: standard research notes and "experiment data". The player would be able to select researches in the Thaumonomicon to get research notes like normal, and place these in the research table. In the research table, where there used to be a minigame, a list of items and aspects relating to the research would be shown (For example, if the player was researching Nitor, glowstone and torches would be shown, as well as Ignis, Lux, and Potentia). Now, the player would go to the mini-table corresponding to the type of item, and give it one combination of an item and an aspect, and the output of this table would be sent to an "analyzer table", which will take the output and generate an "experiment data sheet". Continuing with the Nitor example, the player would throw a combination like a piece of glowstone and 2 ignis worth items into the "alchemy experiment kit", a modified crucible which doesn't output items, but when these items are thrown in, it outputs some special flux gas. The gas then flows up and is collected by a "fume analyzer," which takes in the gas as well as paper and ink and generate a sheet of experiment data. The experiment is then repeated with different combinations of items and essentia, and when a number of knowledge notes from different combinations, the exact number being determined by the type of research and if the player has researched "research mastery", the player will unlock the research. (For example, the player could be required to do 4 different experiments to unlock Nitor without reseach mastery).
It would be a long, slow process, but it would be more fun than a simple minigame and would advance the idea that this is actually research.
Thaumic spectroanalisys? And what kind of machine could extrapolate anything more complex than alcemical crafting from a cruciblic disintegration?
I culd see something like this as a lategame machine to complete some research you missed, but crafting something that complex before making nitor is just silly lorewise.
I think I've come up with a pretty good system for a inter-world research carryover system.
For getting the data between worlds what you could use is a password system that is also coded to the players username, this way a player could just write down their password, eliminating messy server hosting problems, and as it was coded, people wouldn't be able to share passwords so easily.
And as far as balance goes, perhaps instead of simply giving the player all research they had previously, a research could start partially completed, as if only half remembered, and potentially more complete the more times it had been completed in the past.
I still think skiping research is kinda a bad idea... I mean it's a major key element to Thaumcraft.
I mean it's not like people have anything to skip ahead to because updates rarely consist of more endgame content.
If if the research system is really that annoying to people they try making it fun again instead.
I do actually find myself agreeing with @Barleypaper here.
Thaumcraft is a minecraft mod, and vanilla Minecraft and "most" other mods do not restrict the craftability of items.
This is not to say I think research should be disposed off: I think blocks should be craftable (and usable) without the research BUT at the cost of massive quantities of flux.
Research changes from being a case of unlocking access, into a mechanic to improve the efficiency of crafting - and potentially becomes open ended - theres always another tier of efficiency attainable (but for double the "research) that will shave off a bit more of the flux...
I still think skiping research is kinda a bad idea... I mean it's a major key element to Thaumcraft.
I mean it's not like people have anything to skip ahead to because updates rarely consist of more endgame content.
If if the research system is really that annoying to people they try making it fun again instead.
The mod "Thaumcraft minus Thaumcraft" has its name for a reason.
And we have a cheat sheet. What they are aksing for is basically just a better cheat sheet.
Question, Would it look better if the Thaumonomicons Gui frame looked like the binding/covering of the book instead of a wooden frame?
Just so that it looks like the interface is accessed from inside the book and not just a magical wooden frame.
Well just mostly consider the fact that if Thaumcraft did this, it would be pretty much the only mod to ever do tha, which sounds cool, but really isn't.
I don't reject the idea of a slightly more elaborate cheat sheet or support to make the transferring of things from one world to the other easier, but it doesn't change the fact that immediately unlocking stuff from a mod in a new world without doing anything for it is simply cheating.
Notice also how Minecraft achievements are no longer independent either. To me this is a clear sign, that Mojang themselves share the concept of worlds being completely separate realities.
I made a D flip-flop!
again this is just an opinion not a fact. achievements and statistics being per world have nothing to do with ingame concepts of reality, its simply making the game more modularized from a players perspective, i mean its not like "Steve" is in anyway affected by the achievements, there just there keep track of occurrences associated with that file.
when evaluating a student(the world) its more helpful to know the extent of the students knowledge(world stats/achievements) than the classes knowledge as a whole(cumulative stats/ achievements). likening achievements being related to in-game "lore/setting" as has been done disregards the fourth wall, like if the reason halo 5 was xbox one exclusive was because the characters don't like the ps4 controler. its a little silly.
though as Sweet_Brew mentioned the only lore being affected is Thaumcraft's, and even Thaumcraft's is somewhat undetermined.
it is nice to be able to have a civil chat on the internet about things as ridiculous as this. i quite enjoy it XD
Pfft. Easy. Multiple types of research pages (that is, puzzle types) possible that random roll when you first create the page, data of which type it is would be stored in the research page. As for the design... I can't help you there haha
I dont think its nice be like "I did an exploitable mechanic, and you have two choices, either do not install the mod, even if you want to, or spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure how to constantly defend the information from hacking. Thats like one of the most rude things to do to a server host
My suggestion about the transition is: when you get in your thaumonomicon, you can get a string which simply compresses all the researches status to a text measure, and you can type that string in the special item or special page on the thaumonomicon, and the way server holders can prevent people from getting an item/page could be uncraftability, and you can only cheat it or add that page by a cheated item, or configurability of whether it is obtainable by the gameplay or not (spawned in hand as you open the thaumonimicon for the first time or whatever)
I really like the idea of active research. Even unlocking things over time with the right items in the scanner, even. But doing the thaumcraft research on a server with players who aren't doing thaumcraft currently results in a lot of scribbling around in a basement while everyone else explores and does things. Sure you can turn on levels or RP purchasing options, but then you still had to run around scanning and combining elements and so on and so forth... and then there's no research at all.
There's a happy medium and I think Azanor is still approaching it. TC3 was about dumping things into a research table and hoping you'd get notes. There used to be hidden research you could ONLY get from knowledge fragments. Meant if you couldn't find fragments, those things were just lost to you.
I like the relatively change that certain scannable things are gateways. I would like it to be possible to find completed research papers, or to craft them with fragments.
...Well, true, unless you're playing hardcore there's not much real penalty in your base even for dying. But still.
A bit off topic, but the thing that always irritated me about Minecraft achievements was that they are so linear and deterministic. You CANNOT get an achievement without first getting all the prior achievements that lead up to it. ALL of them.
For the longest time, when I was starting out, I never even actually realized that Minecraft had an achievements system because I never bothered making a wooden sword. I went straight to stone.
Yeah, they were meant as kind of a step-by-step tutorial I think. That's also how most mods set their achievements up. Thaumcraft has a far superior tutorial, once you got your hands on a Thaumonomicon, but the concept is pretty much the same. In Thaumcraft the achievements are actually not just an external reward mechanic, but actually have a meaning in the game itself, which makes them so much more immersive.
Wooden tools have the advantage of being fuel, though. So crafting is not a complete waste. But even though the achievements here actually have an impact on the gameplay, I still see them in the same way as the achievements in other mods.
I made a D flip-flop!
I know this sounds like alot to ask but I 100% back this idea and i would love to see the return of the older research mini-games, or at-least having a new research mini-game to play with
I think what you could do is have a Thaumcraft Research Achievement page that's just a bunch of individual items to build; not chained together like the standard minecraft achievements. The game tells you a minor hint as to what items grant research, you go about and make them. Less scanning, more hands on. Plus, just finding something isn't always enough to research it; gotta break it down, put it back together, that sort of thing.
I think that best possible way to do research would be to have it be an in-world process, but this would also make it MUCH more difficult to write. What I was thinking would be to have several "mini" versions of the standard Thaumcraft crafting stations (I say "mini" in quotes because my sample of the setup is larger than all the stations except for the infusion altar) , that are specifically for research. The actual research station would no longer be a place where you would put paper and ink, but would have a slot for 2 items: standard research notes and "experiment data". The player would be able to select researches in the Thaumonomicon to get research notes like normal, and place these in the research table. In the research table, where there used to be a minigame, a list of items and aspects relating to the research would be shown (For example, if the player was researching Nitor, glowstone and torches would be shown, as well as Ignis, Lux, and Potentia). Now, the player would go to the mini-table corresponding to the type of item, and give it one combination of an item and an aspect, and the output of this table would be sent to an "analyzer table", which will take the output and generate an "experiment data sheet". Continuing with the Nitor example, the player would throw a combination like a piece of glowstone and 2 ignis worth items into the "alchemy experiment kit", a modified crucible which doesn't output items, but when these items are thrown in, it outputs some special flux gas. The gas then flows up and is collected by a "fume analyzer," which takes in the gas as well as paper and ink and generate a sheet of experiment data. The experiment is then repeated with different combinations of items and essentia, and when a number of knowledge notes from different combinations, the exact number being determined by the type of research and if the player has researched "research mastery", the player will unlock the research. (For example, the player could be required to do 4 different experiments to unlock Nitor without reseach mastery).
It would be a long, slow process, but it would be more fun than a simple minigame and would advance the idea that this is actually research.
I think the research should be more manual and proactive, I mean:
In TC3 the research was just providing your character with resources and he handled the research
In TC4 you just connected some ideas he had into a research by aranging glyphs into a shape
In TC5 you connect the knowledge he collected in the game, to give him a higher level of understanding by connecting thenodes with the knowledge points (witch in my opinion makes the least sense, but is mechanically kinda similar to the TC4 one).
Luckilly, I have been cooking up my own ideas for a TC-style research system, so I'll just put my latest one here and you can use it(or use it as an inspiration) if you want:
My idea for for TC6 could be a more manual version of a deconstruction table:
1. You examine basic materials to gain knowledge about them on the research table, unlock the basic research in the thaumonomicon (like scanning stuff in the thaumometer did before)
2. Deconstructing items you find (that you don't know how to make) in the research table creates a full schematic of the item (and/or destroy the item), making the research for them easier.
If you don't have the required knowledge to unlock the research (for example thaumium for thaumic tools), the slots will be missing (making it a partial schematic)
3. You can get a research sketch for an item with the thaumonomicon, placing it on the research table shows a sketch of the item you are making with empty slots for materials used to make it, each slot has it's own puzzle which colours in a part of the picture, revealing the material in the slot, which is used to make the item in the research, turning it into an increasingly complete research schematic.
If you have a schematic but don't have the knowledge about one of the materials (see 2.), the puzzle will be missing/scrambled, preventing you from completing them out of order (this could be optional, you could enable it in the config).
4. Placing the research schematic into a tinkering workbench shows the picture of the item (or a half finished picture, if all the puzzles weren't completed).
The slots with completed puzzles show the crafting material the item is made from, but the ones without the finished puzzles only have hints about the material it should contain (maybe less hints the harder thee research is?).
Placing the correct material in the slot adds a border to the slot, adding more detail to the part of the picture of the schematic it represents (maybe some math looking writing or some tiny illegible measurements?) and colors it in if it wasn't.
Placing the wrong item in the slot consumes the item, but doesn't unlock anything (maybe adds more hints if it's a similar item to the correct one?).
Placing all the required materials in all the slots of the schematic turns it into a research blueprint (and the player's username appears as a signature on the bottom corner of the picture).
5. Using the blueprint unlocks the knowledge in the thaumonomicon (lorewise you just stick the blueprint into the thaumonomicon and add some text).
If you already know the research (or made a copy of it from the thaumonomicon) you can place it in an item frame to have the research as a picture on a wall.
This way you can either spend time solving puzzles to understand how something works, than using your knowledge to determine the perfect matrials to construct something, or just sketch it than spend loads of resources tinkering untill you get it right for more proactive players (or look it up on the wiki for people who hate research), maybe some explosions could happen as a result of really wild guessing.
Also there could be a "scholar's mode" in the config that would require a full schematic to make a blueprint, for servers where the GM doesn't want players to just look all the knowledge online.
Um, sorry for the wall of text, but that's the short version.
PS: And the purely theoretical researches, like aura tapping, solving the puzzles would turn the sketch into a research theory, which can be put into the thaumonomical like a blueprint.
Or maybe you have to solve a puzzle by putting your wand into the tinkering workbench (not consumed) and solving a puzzle around it (learning how to apply the theory).
Thaumic spectroanalisys? And what kind of machine could extrapolate anything more complex than alcemical crafting from a cruciblic disintegration?
I culd see something like this as a lategame machine to complete some research you missed, but crafting something that complex before making nitor is just silly lorewise.
I think I've come up with a pretty good system for a inter-world research carryover system.
For getting the data between worlds what you could use is a password system that is also coded to the players username, this way a player could just write down their password, eliminating messy server hosting problems, and as it was coded, people wouldn't be able to share passwords so easily.
And as far as balance goes, perhaps instead of simply giving the player all research they had previously, a research could start partially completed, as if only half remembered, and potentially more complete the more times it had been completed in the past.
I still think skiping research is kinda a bad idea... I mean it's a major key element to Thaumcraft.
I mean it's not like people have anything to skip ahead to because updates rarely consist of more endgame content.
If if the research system is really that annoying to people they try making it fun again instead.
my english is poor, sorry about that.
as soon as the update is planned?
seventh-december, i'll go the whole year. whether there is a chance to play in thaumcraft 1.11 prior to departure?
I do actually find myself agreeing with @Barleypaper here.
Thaumcraft is a minecraft mod, and vanilla Minecraft and "most" other mods do not restrict the craftability of items.
This is not to say I think research should be disposed off: I think blocks should be craftable (and usable) without the research BUT at the cost of massive quantities of flux.
Research changes from being a case of unlocking access, into a mechanic to improve the efficiency of crafting - and potentially becomes open ended - theres always another tier of efficiency attainable (but for double the "research) that will shave off a bit more of the flux...
The mod "Thaumcraft minus Thaumcraft" has its name for a reason.
And we have a cheat sheet. What they are aksing for is basically just a better cheat sheet.
I made a D flip-flop!