On a side note,Palara13, stop being dumb. It's his mod, and he can do whatever he wants with it. Flowerchild, NICE JOB dude! I was just trying out this mod, and it is legit!
I will always attempt to balance to leave some resources to be consumable and non-automated, as removing all such aspects would largely leave the player with nothing to do, but I'm definitely not of a mind to make ALL resources like that.
This is the direction that Spacetoad has gone with the energy addition to buildcraft, and it's a big improvement, though it's caused me a huge amount of effort (the good kind) to convert my quarry based tree farm to steam power. And to make it produce any surplus wood, I've had to implement (or will be soon) a nethercoal factory into the system.
As for leaving us with nothing to do, this is where we need the adventure and exploration elements to be improved upon, and as long as we continue to get new toys to play with in the form of new mod features, there will always be ways to go back and improve even existing systems, or come up with new ones to keep us busy. I think having to depend on resources that can't be automatically gathered somewhat negates the point of automation in the first place. I want a slave/minion mob I can set up to gather the netherrack for my nethercoal factory (let's put those Endermen to some good use).
The reason I like this mod so much over things like Buildcraft and IC is because Flower hasn't skipped past the 'make the tools to make the tools' bit that makes survival mode fun. Being able to fashion a nuclear reactor from rocks and sand with a little bit of millenia old metallurgy techniques tossed in for spice just breaks the feel of the game for me.
This is why FC deserves the praise he gets and more. After realizing that this was getting bigger than a few blocks used to demonstrate how Mojangs time could have been better put to use, he rewrote everything into a cohesive tech tree that starts with rubbing sticks together and has more than two or three steps along the way to the industrial revolution.
I just want to say Great mod. It real fits well in the game, and it kind of is in the same timeline which makes it perfect. But anyways, I was just wondering you're talking about this whole "New Age" thing and I'm just wonder? Would you possible go take it a step farther and like go into an even Newer Age, of coarse I just mean if you had the time and got into it would ever want to do it, or is it a definite "NO, it just wouldn't go into it and bla bla bla, so on, so on"....
That's my point: You pay for your pizza. And you got your money usually trough some kind of repeated effort.
A one time effort is not justification enough to get unlimited reward.
a mob trap is like a diploma, it's a one time effort to improve your way of living and extend your abilities but means nothing if you don't work afterwards.
You get an incredible boost for your effort, but you have to keep the momentum going.
I personally play on hard and I can craft a mob trap/farmer inside a completely secure castle without ever killing a mob by hand or digging underground, so it has nothing to do with survival.
It is sad, but Minecraft survival is a game where you could, even in 1.8, bunker up and never experience anything from the games gameplay option.
Yeah? Well.. that's like.. your opinion man.
The bow has become rewarding: you can dual shot creepers by losing your mobility and each arrow must count because you can't farm feather anymore trough zombies.
I have no idea what that means.
Anyway, when we tried a plugin removing mob drops on non player kills on our server, 10 mins later a guy had already changed his mob trap to channel mobs to him and he just had to swing non stop.
(for context, we were trying to make a survival server with food and an economy with adventurer/builders/harvesters economic templates; mob traps were bypassing adventurers economic viability)
Ahhh it all makes sense now, you are all butthurt that you can't make a fascist server where ingenuity is banned entirely. Look man, people are clever, they're going to think of things to make in game life easier. I really don't understand why you want to stand in the way of that, closed minds don't belong in open worlds.
Anyway, my motivation is not about proving you are able to survive, it is avoid making the game dull. What I like the most since 1.8 is arrows.
The bow has become rewarding: you can dual shot creepers by losing your mobility and each arrow must count because you can't farm feather anymore trough zombies.
It also encourages going melee against skeletons to gain arrows.
It has improved the gameplay in a risk vs reward aspect.
Actually, you can just farm skeletons. It's the same situation as before, you just aren't getting duplicate resources from the feathers, which have no other use other than to make arrows (or to render them with this mod). Instead, we now have rotten flesh which has no real use.
All your points seem a bit off man. The Hoppers don't make afk farming of mob-traps possible, as that can be done with a simple water-flow (and despite what you said before, that's a part of vMC that doesn't seem likely to change). If anything, they allow you to do other things in the game while farming those same resources, as you don't have to sit there in your water channel.
The Buildcraft example you provide is also flawed, as the only time you need engines that consume fuel is for automated mining or construction. You can use wood engines for item transport, which require no fuel, and which provide similar functionality to what the Hopper does.
I am perfectly happy with some resources being finite and requiring effort to obtain (like ores), and others becoming infinite through automation. Again, that's largely what this mod has become about. Running around having to maintain your Hoppers because they periodically break down is not fun. It's mundane maintenance work, which, if anything, would simply encourage people to return to standing in their water-flow afk instead of having to deal with it.
It's not creative. It's not challenging. It's just dull.
The idea isn't going anywhere man. I'm perfectly fine with the Hoppers the way they are.
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Gah!!! all this hopper talks aches my head.
Why would hoppers and its filters have durability in the first place?? pistons and furnaces doesn't. and in my opinion they are more block damaging than a simple water filter.
We are perfectly fine with it, besides we play to have fun.. not to do chores. and as flowerchild said "mundane maintenance work" perfectly fits it. so leave the hoppers be.
You're babbling nonsensically about 1.8 while we're trying to have a nice conversation about tasty pastries. Remain on topic please.
Your just too funny Flowerchild and that is exactly the reason why you must DIE..... Insert epic music here: -> <- And be sure not to put it here: -> <-
this is a long and drawn out but wonderfully constructive conversation - both points are valid but i think it comes down to simply game play style and nothing more - if we are voting, than i vote for hoppers not to randomly break and i vote for peach pie - everybody loves pie
Hello all BTW lovers and pastry chef FlowerChild. I recently came a cross a thread with an interesting idea in it and was wondering if it might work for BTW.
Here is the link.The link.
However balance is not a subjective matter, something is either balanced or not.
I noticed unbalanced things, I point them out.
Minecraft and all its mods are beta products and work in progress. It's part of being an early adopter.
You've said a lot, but it seems to me your point boils down to the belief that once you build an automated system, there needs to be some player work involved to maintain that system's output, else it's not balanced, which equates to faulty design in your opinion.
You're certainly entitled to the opinion, but I don't see that it improves the game in any way to add any form of busy-work just to serve a perceived imbalance in the system. Any kind of forced player grind will eventually lead to boredom, and just defeats the purpose of making an automated system in the first place. It's a game, not a job.
Minecraft is an open ended game with no victory condition, but one can certainly look at infinite resource acquisition as a form of victory. And yes, if once you built one mob grinder, you had free access to every resource in the game, then that would just be broken, but as I pointed out earlier, a mob grinder only gives you a small sampling of the resources that are necessary to continue expanding.
For my own part, I would prefer if every resource in the game could be harvested automatically and infinitely, provided the systems required to set this up were sufficiently complex and required ingenuity and creativity to devise, which is where the balancing comes in. Ideally each harvester is just a link in the chain, one gives you mob drops, another wood, another redstone, and so on. You spend your time building and improving each system, not on needless low level resource grinding. If you end up with a world where every resource is at your finger tips at no continued cost, then congratulations you've "won" the game. Now you can start over, or continue building in the equivalent of creative mode, but one which was made possible only by your own efforts, not freely given at the outset, and thus is gratifying.
If I can jump into this conversation, let me put forward my two cents.
Arrows have become a precious commodity in 1.8 because you have to farm them from skeletons. You kill your local chickens for their feathers, but once they're gone, they're gone.
Oh, wait. The chicken is currently the only mob that can reproduce. It takes a little while to get it going, but it is very to get a chicken farm going. Right now, I have a chicken farm that produces about 30 eggs every 5 minutes. It isn't much, but it's enough to keep my arrow supply quite high. I can always reinvest those eggs into expanding the farm as well. That's how it started in the first place. I had to collect eggs from the 2! chickens I could find within 100 blocks of my house until one hatched. I threw the eggs that chicken laid until I got another and another and so on.
My collection is automated and funnels the eggs to a single point. If I had BTW running, I would have a Hopper at the collection point. The one, single difference? I wouldn't have to check obsessively to make sure the eggs don't despawn.
Arrows are no problem because I took the time to setup a farm and automate it to the extent that vanilla will let me.
I've never made a mob trap, but the concept seems to be similar. Besides, the point of making animals persistent is to make ranching a part of the game. Especially since mobs will start reproducing in 1.9. Adding some automation through a mod seems to be the exact thing mods are supposed to do.
However balance is not a subjective matter, something is either balanced or not.
Ummmm...no. Balance, in this context, is entirely subjective. It's dependent on what you consider a suitable investment for X payout. There's no mathematical formula to determine that, and ultimately, it comes down to what is fun (which is also highly subjective).
There's no convincing me on this one man. We couldn't be more diametrically opposed on this matter and nothing you have said so far has swayed me in the least. It's clear you don't like infinite output mob-traps/farms, and I do. End of story.
Feel free to continue discussing it ad nauseum, but it just isn't going to change, and I won't be participating further.
@Frosth I'm sure I'm not the only one who is at least greatful that you argue with reason, and you definately are entitled to you opinion. Here are my 2 cents on your suggestion: for the way you play minecraft, I'm sure replacing saddles wouldn't be a problem. I don't know how common dungeon chests are found as of 1.8 (I will wait as long as necessary for my favorite mods to update) but the way I see it eventually you would run out of saddles in the area around your base. Sure this would encourage exploring, but to have to venture for a few hours for an object that will break in 40-60 mins is iffy. I could understand it if you were auto harvesting something similar to the value of iron or diamond, but for items like sugar cane, cactus, hemp, bones, arrows and flesh it is a little much. These objects are only gathered in huge quantities for the satisfaction of the player, so having to fix hoppers becomes a chore. It would be a whole different story if this mod was even compatible with multiplayer, because these harvesters would ruin the economy. But as it stands, it is only a matter of playstyle and opinion.
But now I'be been off topic. Anybody else dig red velvet cake?
Edit: of course by the time I had posted you had already posted a few solutions. Carry on
1. You do know that in real life we don't use a gold standard anymore right? If we did then not enough money in the world would exist. Currently the worlds economy is a house of cards held together with superglue. Right now somehow it works and no one really would like to see what would happen if it didn't, because if the house falls then we go back to a world without order. For a taste of what this would look like go watch Mad Max.
2. Your idea of making hoppers destroy stuff is just asinine. You are so narrow minded on the fact that to you the numbers don't add up that you have to devise ways that make absolutely no sense at all. How can a chute with a sliding door and a grate destroy stuff? FC has been adding stuff that MAKE SENSE!!! The only thing he has done that in any way involved "magic" is the concentrated hell fire and out that he made highly dangerous to even do because it can blow up in your face in multiple areas.
3. FC is bringing industry to MC not some insane singe player economy. You go on trying to balance the numbers when FC has said that he will not budge and wont even bother to reply to you. So right now your are investing your time into a black hole. Even if you do get the black hole to collapse the result wont be a safe little pop it will be violent and deadly.
I am running better than wolves with Red Power, IC2 and Buildcraft 2.1 and have no errors in the mod loader logs. My issues is that when I attempt to power a dispenser with redstone the redstone will not connect to the dispenser and I cannot power it. I have tried running the redstone on all sides, under and on top of the dispenser. Any thoughts?
Balance? So how is a mob farm not balanced? You could spend 3 hours collecting drops from random mobs or you could spend those same three hours building a somewhat sizable mob farm to get the same drops, with larger quantity later, at the sacrifice of using up space you could easily build something else less obtrusive. On one hand you have no loss of land but meager pickings, on the other you have a fairly large loss of land (provided you make something worthwhile building of course) but a larger quantity of items you get from it.
Personally, I hate seeing a structure made exclusively for the purpose of killing mobs when I could use it for something else and it can be quite hard to get water flowing properly or redstone wired (if you use pistons) to make stuff go where you want it but it's worth the work to get the better drop ratio.
On that note, you would effectively break the balance of putting the effort into even HAVING a hopper if you made filters break. Hoppers take time and patience to make as well. So if you put the effort into making one, why would you want to put additional effort into making yourself constantly have to change the filter? That's like asking me to change the CPU out of my PC every 3 months just because the manufacturer made it to break in that time. I worked to buy the PC so I should have to work even more to keep it going in ADDITION the the random faults it may have anywho? You need balance for filters? Most will take gravel and sand as well as the stuff you want. That gets in the way if your working in an area that's comprised of those materials. There. Balance.
As far as a saddle breaking goes, I have no idea where that even comes from, I used to own horses and I used the very same saddles to train them that my great great grandpa did for his, 100 or so years ago. And when I sold them they STILL were good for use. Ever try to rip real leather? It's not easy. Try it once.
Phew...
[/end rant]
Anywho, German Apple Pie will always be my favorite, followed by pretty much any cake. I'm not sure if either truly qualify as a pastry though. Ah well.
I am running better than wolves with Red Power, IC2 and Buildcraft 2.1 and have no errors in the mod loader logs. My issues is that when I attempt to power a dispenser with redstone the redstone will not connect to the dispenser and I cannot power it. I have tried running the redstone on all sides, under and on top of the dispenser. Any thoughts?
there are 2 ways i know to power BD's is there is having redstone wire or repeater going directly into it torches next to a BD seem to have no effect on the other hand you can power the BD from the block above by either having redstone run over the top of the BD or have the block above the BD powered by redstone wire or repeater
On a side note,Palara13, stop being dumb. It's his mod, and he can do whatever he wants with it. Flowerchild, NICE JOB dude! I was just trying out this mod, and it is legit!
This is the direction that Spacetoad has gone with the energy addition to buildcraft, and it's a big improvement, though it's caused me a huge amount of effort (the good kind) to convert my quarry based tree farm to steam power. And to make it produce any surplus wood, I've had to implement (or will be soon) a nethercoal factory into the system.
As for leaving us with nothing to do, this is where we need the adventure and exploration elements to be improved upon, and as long as we continue to get new toys to play with in the form of new mod features, there will always be ways to go back and improve even existing systems, or come up with new ones to keep us busy. I think having to depend on resources that can't be automatically gathered somewhat negates the point of automation in the first place. I want a slave/minion mob I can set up to gather the netherrack for my nethercoal factory (let's put those Endermen to some good use).
This is why FC deserves the praise he gets and more. After realizing that this was getting bigger than a few blocks used to demonstrate how Mojangs time could have been better put to use, he rewrote everything into a cohesive tech tree that starts with rubbing sticks together and has more than two or three steps along the way to the industrial revolution.
Yeah? Well.. that's like.. your opinion man.
I have no idea what that means.
Ahhh it all makes sense now, you are all butthurt that you can't make a fascist server where ingenuity is banned entirely. Look man, people are clever, they're going to think of things to make in game life easier. I really don't understand why you want to stand in the way of that, closed minds don't belong in open worlds.
Actually, you can just farm skeletons. It's the same situation as before, you just aren't getting duplicate resources from the feathers, which have no other use other than to make arrows (or to render them with this mod). Instead, we now have rotten flesh which has no real use.
All your points seem a bit off man. The Hoppers don't make afk farming of mob-traps possible, as that can be done with a simple water-flow (and despite what you said before, that's a part of vMC that doesn't seem likely to change). If anything, they allow you to do other things in the game while farming those same resources, as you don't have to sit there in your water channel.
The Buildcraft example you provide is also flawed, as the only time you need engines that consume fuel is for automated mining or construction. You can use wood engines for item transport, which require no fuel, and which provide similar functionality to what the Hopper does.
I am perfectly happy with some resources being finite and requiring effort to obtain (like ores), and others becoming infinite through automation. Again, that's largely what this mod has become about. Running around having to maintain your Hoppers because they periodically break down is not fun. It's mundane maintenance work, which, if anything, would simply encourage people to return to standing in their water-flow afk instead of having to deal with it.
It's not creative. It's not challenging. It's just dull.
The idea isn't going anywhere man. I'm perfectly fine with the Hoppers the way they are.
Why would hoppers and its filters have durability in the first place?? pistons and furnaces doesn't. and in my opinion they are more block damaging than a simple water filter.
We are perfectly fine with it, besides we play to have fun.. not to do chores. and as flowerchild said "mundane maintenance work" perfectly fits it. so leave the hoppers be.
hop into this instead :biggrin.gif:
Your just too funny Flowerchild and that is exactly the reason why you must DIE..... Insert epic music here: -> <- And be sure not to put it here: -> <-
BTW FTW!
Here is the link.The link.
You've said a lot, but it seems to me your point boils down to the belief that once you build an automated system, there needs to be some player work involved to maintain that system's output, else it's not balanced, which equates to faulty design in your opinion.
You're certainly entitled to the opinion, but I don't see that it improves the game in any way to add any form of busy-work just to serve a perceived imbalance in the system. Any kind of forced player grind will eventually lead to boredom, and just defeats the purpose of making an automated system in the first place. It's a game, not a job.
Minecraft is an open ended game with no victory condition, but one can certainly look at infinite resource acquisition as a form of victory. And yes, if once you built one mob grinder, you had free access to every resource in the game, then that would just be broken, but as I pointed out earlier, a mob grinder only gives you a small sampling of the resources that are necessary to continue expanding.
For my own part, I would prefer if every resource in the game could be harvested automatically and infinitely, provided the systems required to set this up were sufficiently complex and required ingenuity and creativity to devise, which is where the balancing comes in. Ideally each harvester is just a link in the chain, one gives you mob drops, another wood, another redstone, and so on. You spend your time building and improving each system, not on needless low level resource grinding. If you end up with a world where every resource is at your finger tips at no continued cost, then congratulations you've "won" the game. Now you can start over, or continue building in the equivalent of creative mode, but one which was made possible only by your own efforts, not freely given at the outset, and thus is gratifying.
Arrows have become a precious commodity in 1.8 because you have to farm them from skeletons. You kill your local chickens for their feathers, but once they're gone, they're gone.
Oh, wait. The chicken is currently the only mob that can reproduce. It takes a little while to get it going, but it is very to get a chicken farm going. Right now, I have a chicken farm that produces about 30 eggs every 5 minutes. It isn't much, but it's enough to keep my arrow supply quite high. I can always reinvest those eggs into expanding the farm as well. That's how it started in the first place. I had to collect eggs from the 2! chickens I could find within 100 blocks of my house until one hatched. I threw the eggs that chicken laid until I got another and another and so on.
My collection is automated and funnels the eggs to a single point. If I had BTW running, I would have a Hopper at the collection point. The one, single difference? I wouldn't have to check obsessively to make sure the eggs don't despawn.
Arrows are no problem because I took the time to setup a farm and automate it to the extent that vanilla will let me.
I've never made a mob trap, but the concept seems to be similar. Besides, the point of making animals persistent is to make ranching a part of the game. Especially since mobs will start reproducing in 1.9. Adding some automation through a mod seems to be the exact thing mods are supposed to do.
Ummmm...no. Balance, in this context, is entirely subjective. It's dependent on what you consider a suitable investment for X payout. There's no mathematical formula to determine that, and ultimately, it comes down to what is fun (which is also highly subjective).
There's no convincing me on this one man. We couldn't be more diametrically opposed on this matter and nothing you have said so far has swayed me in the least. It's clear you don't like infinite output mob-traps/farms, and I do. End of story.
Feel free to continue discussing it ad nauseum, but it just isn't going to change, and I won't be participating further.
But now I'be been off topic. Anybody else dig red velvet cake?
Edit: of course by the time I had posted you had already posted a few solutions. Carry on
You are like a banker gone mad.
1. You do know that in real life we don't use a gold standard anymore right? If we did then not enough money in the world would exist. Currently the worlds economy is a house of cards held together with superglue. Right now somehow it works and no one really would like to see what would happen if it didn't, because if the house falls then we go back to a world without order. For a taste of what this would look like go watch Mad Max.
2. Your idea of making hoppers destroy stuff is just asinine. You are so narrow minded on the fact that to you the numbers don't add up that you have to devise ways that make absolutely no sense at all. How can a chute with a sliding door and a grate destroy stuff? FC has been adding stuff that MAKE SENSE!!! The only thing he has done that in any way involved "magic" is the concentrated hell fire and out that he made highly dangerous to even do because it can blow up in your face in multiple areas.
3. FC is bringing industry to MC not some insane singe player economy. You go on trying to balance the numbers when FC has said that he will not budge and wont even bother to reply to you. So right now your are investing your time into a black hole. Even if you do get the black hole to collapse the result wont be a safe little pop it will be violent and deadly.
Personally, I hate seeing a structure made exclusively for the purpose of killing mobs when I could use it for something else and it can be quite hard to get water flowing properly or redstone wired (if you use pistons) to make stuff go where you want it but it's worth the work to get the better drop ratio.
On that note, you would effectively break the balance of putting the effort into even HAVING a hopper if you made filters break. Hoppers take time and patience to make as well. So if you put the effort into making one, why would you want to put additional effort into making yourself constantly have to change the filter? That's like asking me to change the CPU out of my PC every 3 months just because the manufacturer made it to break in that time. I worked to buy the PC so I should have to work even more to keep it going in ADDITION the the random faults it may have anywho? You need balance for filters? Most will take gravel and sand as well as the stuff you want. That gets in the way if your working in an area that's comprised of those materials. There. Balance.
As far as a saddle breaking goes, I have no idea where that even comes from, I used to own horses and I used the very same saddles to train them that my great great grandpa did for his, 100 or so years ago. And when I sold them they STILL were good for use. Ever try to rip real leather? It's not easy. Try it once.
Phew...
[/end rant]
Anywho, German Apple Pie will always be my favorite, followed by pretty much any cake. I'm not sure if either truly qualify as a pastry though. Ah well.
I curse you sometimes when I struggle with the tech tree. You are a genius.
there are 2 ways i know to power BD's is there is having redstone wire or repeater going directly into it torches next to a BD seem to have no effect on the other hand you can power the BD from the block above by either having redstone run over the top of the BD or have the block above the BD powered by redstone wire or repeater