The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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All the discussion about bad suggestions and discussion about discussion about bad suggestions aside, there was a point made that I think got drowned out in all that.
Chickens being made to only lay eggs after eating, is a step towards devaluing eggs as a food source. I'm impartial to that, but flip it on its ear for a moment. This raises the value of beef and pork, the best type of food, and arguably the easiest to aquire. For this reason, hardcore chickens is a bad move. Well, not really. Just unfinished. Something to devalue meat and make lesser foods a better option for early game would even things out. I don't have any specifics in mind though, I'm not a designer.
Ok, let me explain something here to hopefully clear this up:
Making suggestions to someone that hasn't asked for them is rude. It's called "unsolicited advice", and generally, if you walk up to someone on the street and do it, they will likely get pissed.
I don't know you, yet you decided that you were going to offer me unsolicited advice. Thus, the conversation started with you doing something rude to begin with. I'm not sure why you've come to believe that everyone wants your opinion, but if you'd like to get along with people in life, I'd recommend not wandering around saying things like "Hi! You know that your coat would be nicer if it were blue?"
Secondly, the suggestions you made were so bad, that if I were to implement them, the mod would effectively be ruined. I don't take kindly to someone trying to ruin the year and a half of work I put into the mod.
In other words man, you behaved quite rudely towards me, and I responded in kind. I never asked for your ideas, I don't want them, and they suck.
Chickens being made to only lay eggs after eating, is a step towards devaluing eggs as a food source. I'm impartial to that, but flip it on its ear for a moment. This raises the value of beef and pork, the best type of food, and arguably the easiest to aquire. For this reason, hardcore chickens is a bad move. Well, not really. Just unfinished. Something to devalue meat and make lesser foods a better option for early game would even things out. I don't have any specifics in mind though, I'm not a designer.
What's wrong with encouraging beef and pork as a primary early-game food source? It's easy to aquire and recreate. I value chickens more for their feathers (for use in arrows) than as a food source. The extra food is just a bonus. Besides, there's so many possible sources of food in the game, I don't think making eggs less useful as a food impacts gameplay in any meaningful way.
Don't let these people get you down Maximo Artorio. The official BTW forums are marked by people like these two who think that shielding Flowerchild from crticism trumps any need to be polite, or helpful, or constructive. They've spilled over to this forum because the offical ones are down. They'll go away when their offical forums come back up.
Jadedcat is wrong about what constitutes good manners here. He's being unecessarily rude, regardless of what culture judges him.
Why does anyone actually think that FC needs shielding from criticism? If anything, people are protecting the suggestees from getting a castigating rebuke from FC himself.
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70% of people have signatures that try and boost their superiority complexes. Post this if you're a hypocrite.
What's wrong with encouraging beef and pork as a primary early-game food source? It's easy to aquire and recreate. I value chickens more for their feathers (for use in arrows) than as a food source. The extra food is just a bonus. Besides, there's so many possible sources of food in the game, I don't think making eggs less useful as a food impacts gameplay in any meaningful way.
Yeah, I largely agree with you here. Balancing food sources is just not in any way a priority for me given their incredible abundance in MC, and I've focused more on making chickens valuable with regards to their feathers through changes like the Rotted Arrows.
You'll notice that most of the balancing work I've done with regards to animals has very little to do with food, and has been more along the lines of: cows are for leather, pigs are for Tallow, and chickens are for feathers.
I still need to take care of sheep mind you, as at present their role is almost entirely decorative through wool. A big problem there IMO is spider silk to wool, which is already slated for my chopping block in the near future. Ultimately, it makes sheep entirely redundant late game, and doesn't make a whole lot of intuitive sense to begin with.
Separating the two would allow me to design much clearer uses for both spiders and sheep into the tech tree.
Yeah, I largely agree with you here. Balancing food sources is just not in any way a priority for me given their incredible abundance in MC, and I've focused more on making chickens valuable with regards to their feathers through changes like the Rotted Arrows.
You'll notice that most of the balancing work I've done with regards to animals has very little to do with food, and has been more along the lines of: cows are for leather, pigs are for Tallow, and chickens are for feathers.
I still need to take care of sheep mind you, as at present their role is almost entirely decorative through wool. A big problem their IMO is spider silk to wool, which is already slated for my chopping block in the near future. Ultimately, it makes sheep entirely redundant late game, and doesn't make a whole lot of intuitive sense to begin with.
Separating the two would allow me to design much clearer uses for both spiders and sheep into the tech tree.
I gotta say I love the hardcore sheep. Getting all the colours was an awesome project, and I pretty never use wool for anything. I've started it again on my single player world, just because it's a fun aspect of the game now. I still have no plans to ever do anythign with wool. (Until you add something that is. )
I still have no plans to ever do anythign with wool. (Until you add something that is. )
Yeah...that's kinda the problem. Right now we have a cool system for acquiring wool and not much incentive to use it
As you'll notice, many of my designs for the mod tend to operate in two stages. There's the system itself, and then there's addressing player motivation to use it. This of course applies to vMC systems as well, like my changes to beds and F3 acting to encourage minecart usage.
Having a cool system is all well and good, but I find many mods (or even vMC features) focus way too much on the way something works rather than why someone would use it. I consider providing such motivation a big part of what I do, and you'll notice I tend to sink a lot of time into making adjustments here and there to do so.
The fan boy in me is already drooling. I don't suppose you'll share any of your ideas on what each thing would be used for?
Nah, as that would only elicit suggestions
It's a big part of why I don't discuss things too much before releasing them, even if I've turned that into a pleasant "surprise" mechanism with time. I really do hate receiving suggestions, and suggestions about unreleased features based on partial information are the worst of all.
You can already see some of my work in that direction though with the Stakes. I've seen comments lately about people suddenly wanting to hold onto string because they want to use them with Stakes, and while I don't think that's enough, I do think it's a step in the right direction.
Anyways, this likely won't happen for awhile yet. I'm pushing in many different directions simultaneously right now, design-wise.
Well, since there's no BTW forums for now, let's talk here ^^
I was very surprised to see that, in the latest snapshot, they added an Anvil, and made it affected by gravity like sand. I thought it was not possible to have a GUI for a block and make it act like sand ?
That's not a problem with GUI's man, it's a problem with Tile Entities. Most blocks with a GUI have a tile ent, but there are exceptions like the crafting table, which have none.
Generally, you only require a tile ent for a persistent inventory that hangs around after the GUI is closed (or for any other use that requires more data than 4 bits). So, for something like a crafting table, or I assume Mojang's anvil, it's not needed.
I assume this is also the reason why Mojang decided to not allow blocks with inventories to be pushed by pistons.
We can still speculate, not "suggest" mind you, but guessing where FC might take sheep/wool and spider/string mechanics is interesting. For example, string is used for creating three things; fishing rods, bows, and wool blocks. So far, all of which could be easily placed in other tech trees or are simply redundant. Fishing rods and bows are the only two things worth making from string and I get the feeling that hemp fibres could make a natural substitute in both recipies. It's likely that the string-to-wool recipie was included as a way for Notch to give excess string a continued purpose but if that's true, then that's just lazy gameplay design. All-in-all, string really has very little purpose in the game right now.
Negative aspects aside, what makes string interesting? It's potentially much stronger than hemp fibres. It also might have sticky properties. Maybe it can be boiled down into a variety of glue? That would only reduce the value of slimes and slimeballs however. It's a tricky problem and one I don't have an answer for.
Yeah, I largely agree with you here. Balancing food sources is just not in any way a priority for me given their incredible abundance in MC, and I've focused more on making chickens valuable with regards to their feathers through changes like the Rotted Arrows.
You'll notice that most of the balancing work I've done with regards to animals has very little to do with food, and has been more along the lines of: cows are for leather, pigs are for Tallow, and chickens are for feathers.
I still need to take care of sheep mind you, as at present their role is almost entirely decorative through wool. A big problem there IMO is spider silk to wool, which is already slated for my chopping block in the near future. Ultimately, it makes sheep entirely redundant late game, and doesn't make a whole lot of intuitive sense to begin with.
Separating the two would allow me to design much clearer uses for both spiders and sheep into the tech tree.
Hm.... You're blowing my mind a bit here... I can't imagine a non-aesthetic motivation for getting colored wool...
As to the food point I suppose that makes sense. If you're going to throw in the towel on making food interesting that the relative viability of chicken vs beef in the early game doesn't matter at all.
the following isn't a suggestion for change, just an impression from a new player.
i like the hardcore chickens much, much more than the vanilla ones. i like that i have to feed them to get eggs, and i like eggs as food (it has always annoyed me that i couldn't cook vanilla eggs). i got off to a slow start because i only had one chicken but i really bonded with louise; it was fun to build the small flock.
but. after being extremely busy establishing wheat/hemp farms and livestock breeding (everything is still manual because that's where my game character's mind is at for now; he doesn't know that much yet), i find that i am not using the chickens at all, because i have plenty of food from the pigs and cows (and the mushroom cave), and in comparison the chickens are a pain because i feed them and then they take their sweet time to lay eggs, and i am always away because watching chickens is just not all that exciting, and louise is a serial cheater who doesn't really love me. i know i could automate, and some time down the road i will. i do not use the wiki, because i get a lot of enjoyment out of figuring out how to build things myself. but as it stands, there is no need to automate my chicken farm, because i have a surplus of food from other sources.
i am a lot more interested in dynamic balance than in things being easy or hard per se. IMO breeding of pigs and cows is not in balance with hardcore chickens. pigs/cows don't take as long to pop out offspring as the chickens do with their eggs, and those are not even guaranteed offspring, while pigs/cows/sheep always give instant birth to a healthy baby, which grows up insanely fast. it'd be better if they gestated for a while and had the occasional miscarriage (which might even kill the one popping out the kid). they also drop a lot of food at once, and it's high-protein food (gives more health than eggs). oh, and sheep regrow their wool too fast -- i have 16 sheep and by the time i've shorn them all, at least one has already regrown (these are vanilla MC issues, of course).
as soon as one has a full field (9x9 with 1 water in the middle) of wheat and hemp each, and a corral of pigs and cows, one seems set for life, even without automation. hemp takes a while to get started, but then it'll regrow from ... 8th? stage in no time flat. i keep pondering how to stretch that out. maybe i shouldn't allow hemp to regrow, but pretend it has to be reseeded -- that would also encourage me to work on automation.
now that i've figured out how to build a windmill, i won't even get hungry that quickly -- i really liked how much working the hand crank drained my energy. almost as bad as real life ;).
why cant I get this mod to work in multi mc I wish I could get it to work it sounds really fun
The way the mod is packaged in the download is not set up for direct MultiMC use. You need to take the contents of the MINECRAFT (or is it MINECRAFT-JAR?) folder and place those in a separate zip file, then used the zip file you created in MultiMC.
And FC, awfulcopter is right. You posted a mod publicly on a discussion forum, part of maintaining a mod involves dealing with suggestions and criticism. You lack an professionalism in your replies, but given what I have seen of various big-name modders in Minecraft you aren't the only one that acts like that.
And despite how much you hate unsolicited suggestions, I'm about to offer one. Spawn placement on world creation. You ever start right next to a village? Makes the game extremely easy at the start. Free shelter, free crops already planted (since the new snapshots have carrots/potatoes in addition to wheat), and if you are lucky a blacksmith with iron tools/gear and ingots. My suggestion would be to see if there is a way to check distances to the nearest village, and have the spawn location be forced to pick an area that is at least 1,000 blocks from the nearest village (if testing makes it take too long to create a world, drop the limit to like 500).
As to the food point I suppose that makes sense. If you're going to throw in the towel on making food interesting that the relative viability of chicken vs beef in the early game doesn't matter at all.
Well, I dunno if I'm giving up on it entirely, or rather just leaving it for another day. There's obviously a lot of other things I want to address, and I don't want to go off on yet another tangent with food
For the sake of discussion though, I think this once again comes back to the furnace being too early in the tech tree and way too easy to make. Also, there's really no "hunter gatherer" portion of the vMC tech-tree, so some of the things you were suggesting to make wheat more palatable as a food source and such, I think would feel distinctly unnatural.
We basically jump straight to domesticated animals and farming right from the get go upon entering the game.
I think to do things "right" and make food a really interesting part of the game would require a heck of a lot of work on the early tech-tree, and I don't think it's something that has an "easy fix".
Anyways, personally I'm a little mystified as to why hunger was included in the game when it was, and then was basically blasted out of existence by update after update of alternative food sources. Actually, mystified isn't the right word, as I know exactly why it happened, I just don't like it
And despite how much you hate unsolicited suggestions, I'm about to offer one. Spawn placement on world creation. You ever start right next to a village? Makes the game extremely easy at the start. Free shelter, free crops already planted (since the new snapshots have carrots/potatoes in addition to wheat), and if you are lucky a blacksmith with iron tools/gear and ingots. My suggestion would be to see if there is a way to check distances to the nearest village, and have the spawn location be forced to pick an area that is at least 1,000 blocks from the nearest village (if testing makes it take too long to create a world, drop the limit to like 500).
Wouldn't that get rid of the fun of finding a village though?
Wouldn't that get rid of the fun of finding a village though?
Fun in finding a village is more for the trading (and the addition of exp from villagers in BTW). Finding one right next to your spawn point that is full of iron goodies, furnaces, and overflowing with foodstuffs really takes any challenge out of finding your own location to start a base from scratch. They are still great for founding secondary bases, but it kind of kills it for the first/primary base that you make (my opinion at least).
Fun in finding a village is more for the trading (and the addition of exp from villagers in BTW). Finding one right next to your spawn point that is full of iron goodies, furnaces, and overflowing with foodstuffs really takes any challenge out of finding your own location to start a base from scratch. They are still great for founding secondary bases, but it kind of kills it for the first/primary base that you make (my opinion at least).
Yup, I agree with you there, but your suggestion is irrelevant due to you not being aware of the plans I have for villagers. As I mentioned on the BTW forums, I'm basically planning on completely reworking them and the above won't be an issue as a result.
All forums have rules against flaming and trolling, which is exactly what you do when you tell someone "you're idea is stupid", "you're an idiot", "n00b", etc. All it would take is someone to start reporting posts made like that and then warnings add up. You can say an idea is not good and say why, or you can just ignore it. There is no reason to insult other people just because they don't agree with you.
Report if you like man. This thread is already heavily moderated so the way I respond to posts is already known to those running the forums, and I am also well aware of the forum rules and always attempt to stay within them.
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Chickens being made to only lay eggs after eating, is a step towards devaluing eggs as a food source. I'm impartial to that, but flip it on its ear for a moment. This raises the value of beef and pork, the best type of food, and arguably the easiest to aquire. For this reason, hardcore chickens is a bad move. Well, not really. Just unfinished. Something to devalue meat and make lesser foods a better option for early game would even things out. I don't have any specifics in mind though, I'm not a designer.
Ok, let me explain something here to hopefully clear this up:
Making suggestions to someone that hasn't asked for them is rude. It's called "unsolicited advice", and generally, if you walk up to someone on the street and do it, they will likely get pissed.
I don't know you, yet you decided that you were going to offer me unsolicited advice. Thus, the conversation started with you doing something rude to begin with. I'm not sure why you've come to believe that everyone wants your opinion, but if you'd like to get along with people in life, I'd recommend not wandering around saying things like "Hi! You know that your coat would be nicer if it were blue?"
Secondly, the suggestions you made were so bad, that if I were to implement them, the mod would effectively be ruined. I don't take kindly to someone trying to ruin the year and a half of work I put into the mod.
In other words man, you behaved quite rudely towards me, and I responded in kind. I never asked for your ideas, I don't want them, and they suck.
What's wrong with encouraging beef and pork as a primary early-game food source? It's easy to aquire and recreate. I value chickens more for their feathers (for use in arrows) than as a food source. The extra food is just a bonus. Besides, there's so many possible sources of food in the game, I don't think making eggs less useful as a food impacts gameplay in any meaningful way.
Why does anyone actually think that FC needs shielding from criticism? If anything, people are protecting the suggestees from getting a castigating rebuke from FC himself.
Yeah, I largely agree with you here. Balancing food sources is just not in any way a priority for me given their incredible abundance in MC, and I've focused more on making chickens valuable with regards to their feathers through changes like the Rotted Arrows.
You'll notice that most of the balancing work I've done with regards to animals has very little to do with food, and has been more along the lines of: cows are for leather, pigs are for Tallow, and chickens are for feathers.
I still need to take care of sheep mind you, as at present their role is almost entirely decorative through wool. A big problem there IMO is spider silk to wool, which is already slated for my chopping block in the near future. Ultimately, it makes sheep entirely redundant late game, and doesn't make a whole lot of intuitive sense to begin with.
Separating the two would allow me to design much clearer uses for both spiders and sheep into the tech tree.
I gotta say I love the hardcore sheep. Getting all the colours was an awesome project, and I pretty never use wool for anything. I've started it again on my single player world, just because it's a fun aspect of the game now. I still have no plans to ever do anythign with wool. (Until you add something that is.
The fan boy in me is already drooling. I don't suppose you'll share any of your ideas on what each thing would be used for?
Yeah...that's kinda the problem. Right now we have a cool system for acquiring wool and not much incentive to use it
As you'll notice, many of my designs for the mod tend to operate in two stages. There's the system itself, and then there's addressing player motivation to use it. This of course applies to vMC systems as well, like my changes to beds and F3 acting to encourage minecart usage.
Having a cool system is all well and good, but I find many mods (or even vMC features) focus way too much on the way something works rather than why someone would use it. I consider providing such motivation a big part of what I do, and you'll notice I tend to sink a lot of time into making adjustments here and there to do so.
Nah, as that would only elicit suggestions
It's a big part of why I don't discuss things too much before releasing them, even if I've turned that into a pleasant "surprise" mechanism with time. I really do hate receiving suggestions, and suggestions about unreleased features based on partial information are the worst of all.
You can already see some of my work in that direction though with the Stakes. I've seen comments lately about people suddenly wanting to hold onto string because they want to use them with Stakes, and while I don't think that's enough, I do think it's a step in the right direction.
Anyways, this likely won't happen for awhile yet. I'm pushing in many different directions simultaneously right now, design-wise.
That's not a problem with GUI's man, it's a problem with Tile Entities. Most blocks with a GUI have a tile ent, but there are exceptions like the crafting table, which have none.
Generally, you only require a tile ent for a persistent inventory that hangs around after the GUI is closed (or for any other use that requires more data than 4 bits). So, for something like a crafting table, or I assume Mojang's anvil, it's not needed.
I assume this is also the reason why Mojang decided to not allow blocks with inventories to be pushed by pistons.
Negative aspects aside, what makes string interesting? It's potentially much stronger than hemp fibres. It also might have sticky properties. Maybe it can be boiled down into a variety of glue? That would only reduce the value of slimes and slimeballs however. It's a tricky problem and one I don't have an answer for.
Yeah, if you want a mod installer, MCPatcher is the way to go. MultiMC's had problems with better than wolves and SMP for me.
Hm.... You're blowing my mind a bit here... I can't imagine a non-aesthetic motivation for getting colored wool...
As to the food point I suppose that makes sense. If you're going to throw in the towel on making food interesting that the relative viability of chicken vs beef in the early game doesn't matter at all.
i like the hardcore chickens much, much more than the vanilla ones. i like that i have to feed them to get eggs, and i like eggs as food (it has always annoyed me that i couldn't cook vanilla eggs). i got off to a slow start because i only had one chicken
but i really bonded with louise; it was fun to build the small flock.but. after being extremely busy establishing wheat/hemp farms and livestock breeding (everything is still manual because that's where my game character's mind is at for now; he doesn't know that much yet), i find that i am not using the chickens at all, because i have plenty of food from the pigs and cows (and the mushroom cave), and in comparison the chickens are a pain because i feed them and then they take their sweet time to lay eggs, and i am always away because watching chickens is just not all that exciting
, and louise is a serial cheater who doesn't really love me. i know i could automate, and some time down the road i will. i do not use the wiki, because i get a lot of enjoyment out of figuring out how to build things myself. but as it stands, there is no need to automate my chicken farm, because i have a surplus of food from other sources.i am a lot more interested in dynamic balance than in things being easy or hard per se. IMO breeding of pigs and cows is not in balance with hardcore chickens. pigs/cows don't take as long to pop out offspring as the chickens do with their eggs, and those are not even guaranteed offspring, while pigs/cows/sheep always give instant birth to a healthy baby, which grows up insanely fast. it'd be better if they gestated for a while and had the occasional miscarriage (which might even kill the one popping out the kid). they also drop a lot of food at once, and it's high-protein food (gives more health than eggs). oh, and sheep regrow their wool too fast -- i have 16 sheep and by the time i've shorn them all, at least one has already regrown (these are vanilla MC issues, of course).
as soon as one has a full field (9x9 with 1 water in the middle) of wheat and hemp each, and a corral of pigs and cows, one seems set for life, even without automation. hemp takes a while to get started, but then it'll regrow from ... 8th? stage in no time flat. i keep pondering how to stretch that out. maybe i shouldn't allow hemp to regrow, but pretend it has to be reseeded -- that would also encourage me to work on automation.
now that i've figured out how to build a windmill, i won't even get hungry that quickly -- i really liked how much working the hand crank drained my energy. almost as bad as real life ;).
The way the mod is packaged in the download is not set up for direct MultiMC use. You need to take the contents of the MINECRAFT (or is it MINECRAFT-JAR?) folder and place those in a separate zip file, then used the zip file you created in MultiMC.
And FC, awfulcopter is right. You posted a mod publicly on a discussion forum, part of maintaining a mod involves dealing with suggestions and criticism. You lack an professionalism in your replies, but given what I have seen of various big-name modders in Minecraft you aren't the only one that acts like that.
And despite how much you hate unsolicited suggestions, I'm about to offer one. Spawn placement on world creation. You ever start right next to a village? Makes the game extremely easy at the start. Free shelter, free crops already planted (since the new snapshots have carrots/potatoes in addition to wheat), and if you are lucky a blacksmith with iron tools/gear and ingots. My suggestion would be to see if there is a way to check distances to the nearest village, and have the spawn location be forced to pick an area that is at least 1,000 blocks from the nearest village (if testing makes it take too long to create a world, drop the limit to like 500).
Minecart with a Chest can move from place to place. I guess that was designed differently and specifically?
Well, I dunno if I'm giving up on it entirely, or rather just leaving it for another day. There's obviously a lot of other things I want to address, and I don't want to go off on yet another tangent with food
For the sake of discussion though, I think this once again comes back to the furnace being too early in the tech tree and way too easy to make. Also, there's really no "hunter gatherer" portion of the vMC tech-tree, so some of the things you were suggesting to make wheat more palatable as a food source and such, I think would feel distinctly unnatural.
We basically jump straight to domesticated animals and farming right from the get go upon entering the game.
I think to do things "right" and make food a really interesting part of the game would require a heck of a lot of work on the early tech-tree, and I don't think it's something that has an "easy fix".
Anyways, personally I'm a little mystified as to why hunger was included in the game when it was, and then was basically blasted out of existence by update after update of alternative food sources. Actually, mystified isn't the right word, as I know exactly why it happened, I just don't like it
Wouldn't that get rid of the fun of finding a village though?
Fun in finding a village is more for the trading (and the addition of exp from villagers in BTW). Finding one right next to your spawn point that is full of iron goodies, furnaces, and overflowing with foodstuffs really takes any challenge out of finding your own location to start a base from scratch. They are still great for founding secondary bases, but it kind of kills it for the first/primary base that you make (my opinion at least).
Yup, I agree with you there, but your suggestion is irrelevant due to you not being aware of the plans I have for villagers. As I mentioned on the BTW forums, I'm basically planning on completely reworking them and the above won't be an issue as a result.
Report if you like man. This thread is already heavily moderated so the way I respond to posts is already known to those running the forums, and I am also well aware of the forum rules and always attempt to stay within them.