Oh MY GAWDD!! Your map is the biggest, greatest, best looking, most difficult
Custom Map I HAVE EVER PLAYED :biggrin.gif:. I have played it with my friend and we had fun getting all discs!! Many for you!! Again GREAT WORK :biggrin.gif:
Unfortunately, I was unable to create a Let's Play of Vinyl Fantasy due to my computer being unable to run both applications at the same time without becoming extremely slow. We started out on hard, but eventually dropped it down to normal when the number of creepers passed the level of ridiculousness.
Instead, I'll summarize. While me and 3 of my friends had initially planned on starting tonight, one of them was unable to, so it was only 3 of us - Me, Websurfer, and Nicejacket. Having already played the beginning, we quickly grabbed
The two chests at spawn. As a funny side note, the golden shovel seemed to be haunted, as it repeatedly broke only to re-appear in my inventory nearly a minute later (This was obviously due to the enchantment, but still a glitch I believe).
We also were aware which trees were filled with lava, and put this information to use, allowing us to light up large swathes of the island in a relatively short time. Jacket had to leave during this period, so it was just me and Surfer.
During this time, I came across this, and felt obligated to take a picture. Poor guy was afraid to come down.
We built a base shortly thereafter, and added a mob spawner atop it so that we wouldn't have to worry too much about food (Although, due to the number of times we died, we didn't end up needing to fear going hungry too much).
The base.
The trap.
While all of this was going on, we stumbled across something.
That something was the 'back' entrance to the dungeon. And by back, I mean that we ended up behind it and only noticed it because I spotted a brick. And then the first block we broke had the loot chest behind it. No complaints there. Ultimately, we didn't clear out the dungeon, but I don't think we need to - We got the record and the loot.
The two of us wrapped it up shortly thereafter. It was a lot of fun, and we look forward to tackling some of the dungeons tomorrow. Kudos once more three_two for making such a magnificent map.
Oh, and by the end of this all, we had completely desecrated the spawn.
Figured I shall let you fine gentlefolks know that myself and VintageBeef have decided to take on the vinyl fantasy challenge. The first episode can be found here :biggrin.gif:
Figured I shall let you fine gentlefolks know that myself and VintageBeef have decided to take on the vinyl fantasy challenge. The first episode can be found here :biggrin.gif:
Whooaa!! I is excited about this! Good luck Pause and Beef :biggrin.gif:
As a general hint (and not too much of a spoiler) I say:
Don't stick around too long on the starting island..the resources are there to completely own it, but it takes a while and and you may get frustrated if you're not expecting a 'survival island' type adventure. Won't say where to go, but depending on where you go, there's lots of stuff around to help make the starting island into more of a proper base..and quicker
I figured. It's just not what I expected at all. ended up dying a million times even to simple things such as falling off the island. I think I'll be able to pull off a stable beginning when I try again this evening.
The Big Tree is kind of my own brand of difficult which involves disorientation as a means of dickery. I guess I'll add dementia to my repertoire as well xD
I've played this map, as well as most of Vechs creations. I will say that this is a great effort but becomes a bit to unwieldy at times (much like Vechs earlier projects).
As a game designer our biggest concern is player retention. I understand that these maps are meant to be difficult and 'Rage Quit' but in turn you're creating large world areas that will never be explored or seen by your 'average' CTM adventurer who wants nothing more than to experience what's lacking in straight Minecraft, a game and a goal. There needs to be a balance between difficulty and reward, something I'm having a hard time finding with this map as well as early Vechs maps. His Spellbound has seemed to be the most mature and accessible by far in his series and honestly would be the bar I would set were I to make a map. Not perfect, but undeniably rewarding to play.
Just a bit of feedback and yes there are SPOILERS sans the spoiler tags, sorry. Note: I've played the snow area, FUUUU tree and Broken Wizard area.
The starting area: Is great. It's nice to see a challenge out of the gate and as has been said on this thread, it can be conquered. A good challenge map should make the player grateful to be past the starting area and feel the rewards of actually 'starting' the game and accumulating wealth/power. I was indeed grateful. Although, I half expected to be able to return to the area in the future, stronger, more prepared and clear out whatever I did not have the patience for in my initial beginner attempt. As you'll see that doesn't happen.
My first mistake was going to the snow golem area (whatever that's called, sorry) which led to my first restart. It was insanely challenging without any resources (no food, no wood, no torches). Which quite honestly was an interesting challenge and one I hope to experience again, prepared.
The Tree: I admit it, I like elements of survival and by finding trees and other renewable resources I felt a sense of reward and began to really settle in. Renewable resources was huge and really brought me back from a very unsettling beginning. The tree is well designed and yes, disorienting and huge!
But, I began to realize something in this area. In the entire game I only felt that dying was punishing once. That was when I fell from the tree with a full suit of armor only to almost grab it as it disappeared before my eyes (I think I saved pants).
This is an important point. Dying did not matter, it only set me back to wherever I had made a bed. I had nothing throughout the majority of my game so what's another death other than grabbing some wooden tools and trying again. If anything, dying provided me with a way to no longer be hungry. Take away: Offering a (somewhat) steady stream of small rewards, ala Vechs enchanted signs, some armor, a minor enchantment makes dying much more painful and punishing.
Next point:
I did grow tired of the tree and hoping to find resources that might make it easier to fight off the remaining enemies and clear the areas that just seemed to repeat themselves every time I head up a new branch, I continued my adventure into a new area.
See a pattern here? I expect that by moving on to another area (advancing) I will become stronger and be able to hopefully clear a previous area that I just couldn't tweak out the final reward.
Would we have played the original Zelda if, as the difficulty ramped up, we had the same character and resources as our initial start?
Anyhow,
We get to where I eventually finished playing the map, Broken Wizard. I headed to Broken Wizard packing up my survival supplies. Glowstone Mines is a nice breather and I really looked forward to utilizing them but, the Wizard towers are just insane. We're talking early 80s arcade games where they'd just throw enemies and speed things up until it was impossible to win and they took your quarter. There was nothing I could see from the beginning area to this point that could have prepared me for the onslaught. So I stopped playing your map.
To correct this I dare say CTM map makers such as yourself need to take a good hard look at your area difficulties and whether or not you're able to provide the player with the resources and ample rewards to conquer the area. I cannot imagine that your average CTM player is looking to constantly be squashed and disappointed. Not to keep referring to Vechs but his SpellBound Crypts was probably the only area that was impossible to conquer by shear force (unless you had extreme patience). This was fine, the player at this point has been amply rewarded for his endeavors (signs, brewing, enchanting as well as wool and survival resources) and must suck it up and, at the very least, mole his way to victory, fine. On the other hand in Vinyl Fantasy, after exploring 3-4 areas I'm roughly in the same position and character growth situation I was in as when I started (no armor, wooden tools and wooden weapons) and no desire to continue. Which leaves how much of your world that you no doubt spent hours on unexplored?
Keep in mind, there already exists a hardcore setting for those players who want the ultimate challenge but for those of us that want a 'game' this map comes so close but misses the mark.
I've played this map, as well as most of Vechs creations. I will say that this is a great effort but becomes a bit to unwieldy at times (much like Vechs earlier projects).
As a game designer our biggest concern is player retention. I understand that these maps are meant to be difficult and 'Rage Quit' but in turn you're creating large world areas that will never be explored or seen by your 'average' CTM adventurer who wants nothing more than to experience what's lacking in straight Minecraft, a game and a goal. There needs to be a balance between difficulty and reward, something I'm having a hard time finding with this map as well as early Vechs maps. His Spellbound has seemed to be the most mature and accessible by far in his series and honestly would be the bar I would set were I to make a map. Not perfect, but undeniably rewarding to play.
Just a bit of feedback and yes there are SPOILERS sans the spoiler tags, sorry. Note: I've played the snow area, FUUUU tree and Broken Wizard area.
The starting area: Is great. It's nice to see a challenge out of the gate and as has been said on this thread, it can be conquered. A good challenge map should make the player grateful to be past the starting area and feel the rewards of actually 'starting' the game and accumulating wealth/power. I was indeed grateful. Although, I half expected to be able to return to the area in the future, stronger, more prepared and clear out whatever I did not have the patience for in my initial beginner attempt. As you'll see that doesn't happen.
My first mistake was going to the snow golem area (whatever that's called, sorry) which led to my first restart. It was insanely challenging without any resources (no food, no wood, no torches). Which quite honestly was an interesting challenge and one I hope to experience again, prepared.
The Tree: I admit it, I like elements of survival and by finding trees and other renewable resources I felt a sense of reward and began to really settle in. Renewable resources was huge and really brought me back from a very unsettling beginning. The tree is well designed and yes, disorienting and huge!
But, I began to realize something in this area. In the entire game I only felt that dying was punishing once. That was when I fell from the tree with a full suit of armor only to almost grab it as it disappeared before my eyes (I think I saved pants).
This is an important point. Dying did not matter, it only set me back to wherever I had made a bed. I had nothing throughout the majority of my game so what's another death other than grabbing some wooden tools and trying again. If anything, dying provided me with a way to no longer be hungry. Take away: Offering a (somewhat) steady stream of small rewards, ala Vechs enchanted signs, some armor, a minor enchantment makes dying much more painful and punishing.
Next point:
I did grow tired of the tree and hoping to find resources that might make it easier to fight off the remaining enemies and clear the areas that just seemed to repeat themselves every time I head up a new branch, I continued my adventure into a new area.
See a pattern here? I expect that by moving on to another area (advancing) I will become stronger and be able to hopefully clear a previous area that I just couldn't tweak out the final reward.
Would we have played the original Zelda if, as the difficulty ramped up, we had the same character and resources as our initial start?
Anyhow,
We get to where I eventually finished playing the map, Broken Wizard. I headed to Broken Wizard packing up my survival supplies. Glowstone Mines is a nice breather and I really looked forward to utilizing them but, the Wizard towers are just insane. We're talking early 80s arcade games where they'd just throw enemies and speed things up until it was impossible to win and they took your quarter. There was nothing I could see from the beginning area to this point that could have prepared me for the onslaught. So I stopped playing your map.
To correct this I dare say CTM map makers such as yourself need to take a good hard look at your area difficulties and whether or not you're able to provide the player with the resources and ample rewards to conquer the area. I cannot imagine that your average CTM player is looking to constantly be squashed and disappointed. Not to keep referring to Vechs but his SpellBound Crypts was probably the only area that was impossible to conquer by shear force (unless you had extreme patience). This was fine, the player at this point has been amply rewarded for his endeavors (signs, brewing, enchanting as well as wool and survival resources) and must suck it up and, at the very least, mole his way to victory, fine. On the other hand in Vinyl Fantasy, after exploring 3-4 areas I'm roughly in the same position and character growth situation I was in as when I started (no armor, wooden tools and wooden weapons) and no desire to continue. Which leaves how much of your world that you no doubt spent hours on unexplored?
Keep in mind, there already exists a hardcore setting for those players who want the ultimate challenge but for those of us that want a 'game' this map comes so close but misses the mark.
First off, use the spoiler tags dude. I appreciate the feedback but, you don't have to ruin it for everyone else. I sincerely hope you do the right thing and edit your post accordingly.
Second off, this is an open-world map of high difficulty rating and you're comparing it to Spellbound Crypts (it's actually Spellbound Caves) which is a linear-branching map with an easy difficulty rating. It's important to realize I'm not Vechs. I have used his CTM game mechanic yes but, I have otherwise gone out of my way to separate myself from Vechs and the hordes of CTM clones out there.
That being said, the rest of your review just reads more like a fail blog than a proper critique. Even with an open mind, I found it hard to agree with anything you said. Mostly because of how mis-informed and unexperienced you sound. Most experienced CTM players would tell you that it sounds like you just didn't play well. I wish you could read it from an outside perspective. Sometimes what's on your mind gets overpowered by the true facts of the matter when you try to put it on paper.
I also hope you don't think I'm just butt-hurt as a result of your lackluster review. I don't want my words to be taken as reactionary or hurtful in any way. I've worked in the arts industry for many years and I've been the subject of many critiques. It's very rare that words can hurt my butt.
side note: Out of curiosity I checked all the topics you have posted or replied to and from what I could tell, this was the only CTM map there. Now I'm more curious as to why you singled my map out. I have have a few ideas on that but, instead I leave you with this: In the future, it would be good for you to know that mapmakers always appreciate feedback but, if you want to review maps you should start your own thread.
I find this map to be delightfully challenging after Vechs' Super Hostile.
Starting island wasn't too bad. I harvested some trees (and made some lava lamps), lit up one half of it and collected all the stone from the beginning base. After that, I carefully bridged over to the pyramid.
The pyramid is a really nice area. The lava in the ceiling makes for easy lightning, and the challenges inside aren't overwhelming. I got some pretty nice loot, which came to great use in conquering the pyramid. I had a dire lack of torches, so those became to immediate use. I died once in one of the Cave Spider room (thought the room was empty, but there were infact 10 spiders hovering above my head). Iron suit made it considerably easier, though the poison still hurt.
The iron room is easily one of the most evil things in CTM maps I have encountered, right alongside the
stick
fortress in legendary. There are just insane amounts of creepers falling down on you, making progress very difficult, especially if you don't have torches.
Other than that, it's not too bad.
But man, that room.
Thanks Koipen! I'm glad you are enjoying. Everything that is terrible in this map has an easy solution (although not always obvious)...
maybe there's another way into the iron room :wink.gif:
No, you're right. I should add spoiler tags. I actually assumed I wasn't very far into your map and it isn't anything anyone doesn't know who hasn't played more than a few hours.
I've played Vechs, Twisted Logic and your map. Honestly for me Vechs was the only person who has a (one) truly good map that, as I said was a mature piece of work and that was SpellBound Caves (yes I said Spellbound crypts and I meant it, as I was citing his crypt area). The reason is simple: He rewarded the player, made it a gaming experience and continued to get progressively harder while his early areas became increasingly easier.
I actually focused on your map because it was by far an amazing freshman piece of work and hope your sophomore effort is even better. But, as I watched the trailer one thing made me hesitant about trying it out. Is it simply eye candy or is it a gaming experience that, as I said, Minecraft lacks.
As it turns out it's just a hard core none stop action map with very little gaming payoff. See, I have the opposite problem as you. I'm a game designer and engineer who loves rewarding and challenging a player but have no interesting in doing the 'art' behind a map.
Anyhow, my comments were only meant to help so here's the summary:
tldr;
Reward the player and give them a reason to regret dying. As the player advances to further/stronger areas power them up and give them a carrot to continue and revisit old areas that may have been too difficult. Don't Arcade-Overwhelm the player, you spent a lot of time creating a work of art and a game, make sure your players experience all your hard work.
If these things are actually in your map then you've failed. Example: we telemetric all of our games. We had a tutorial and a slow ramp up in one of our games. We found that on step x of our tutorial we lost 40% of our players (they hadn't invested any time and could easily put it down and move on to another way to spend their time). We pushed an update that resulted in +90% of our players making through the tutorial and the beginning levels which resulted in a retention rate that made our work and time worthwhile (or at least better) because we got them to the point where they were invested, rewarded and wanted to keep playing. Sadly you have no way to tell how many users start your map and never finish. My guess is it'd be disappointing. Don't telemetric your game off the number of downloads.
Hey, take my advice or don't. You've got the skills to make a really nice looking map. I'm suggesting you make it more of a gaming experience.
First off, use the spoiler tags dude. I appreciate the feedback but, you don't have to ruin it for everyone else. I sincerely hope you do the right thing and edit your post accordingly.
Second off, this is an open-world map of high difficulty rating and you're comparing it to Spellbound Crypts (it's actually Spellbound Caves) which is a linear-branching map with an easy difficulty rating. It's important to realize I'm not Vechs. I have used his CTM game mechanic yes but, I have otherwise gone out of my way to separate myself from Vechs and the hordes of CTM clones out there.
That being said, the rest of your review just reads more like a fail blog than a proper critique. Even with an open mind, I found it hard to agree with anything you said. Mostly because of how mis-informed and unexperienced you sound. Most experienced CTM players would tell you that it sounds like you just didn't play well. I wish you could read it from an outside perspective. Sometimes what's on your mind gets overpowered by the true facts of the matter when you try to put it on paper.
I also hope you don't think I'm just butt-hurt as a result of your lackluster review. I don't want my words to be taken as reactionary or hurtful in any way. I've worked in the arts industry for many years and I've been the subject of many critiques. It's very rare that words can hurt my butt.
side note: Out of curiosity I checked all the topics you have posted or replied to and from what I could tell, this was the only CTM map there. Now I'm more curious as to why you singled my map out. I have have a few ideas on that but, instead I leave you with this: In the future, it would be good for you to know that mapmakers always appreciate feedback but, if you want to review maps you should start your own thread.
Regards,
three_two
Thanks Koipen! I'm glad you are enjoying. Everything that is terrible in this map has an easy solution (although not always obvious)...
maybe there's another way into the iron room :wink.gif:
Ah Sandoze.. this is a proper hard survival map..more akin to vechs maps before 1.8 and before he went a little softer...and, if you dont mind me saying, it sounds like you perhaps didn't think about how to overcome certain challenges..sorry!
Very fair. My expectations may not have been the map maker's intent. I have a knee jerk assumption that when someone creates something they want it consumed by a large audience and after playing for several days I have some very strong opinions and suggestions on making the current breed of CTMs (hey, let's make something beautiful and just put spawners everywhere!) into something that can be enjoyable and consumable to a larger audience. Yes, Vinyl Fantasy just happened to be the final straw which is why three_two ended up on the receiving end of my computer.
Anyhow, it's not my intent to hijack this thread. This is a great map that looks wonderful. If you enjoy a challenge and you just want to be, to bastardize the words of three_two, butt-brutalized by a CTM this is (and just about every other CTM) the way to go. Yes, this map hates its users.
That said, feel free to PM me (You can do that on these forums right?) and tell me what I'm doing wrong, maybe I'm impatient? A newb? Don't know how to block with his wooden sword? Also, three_two, if you want to collaborate on a future CTM and gamify it a bit more I'd be more than happy to help. You have some superb map making skillz.
Allow me one last, probably poor, example of fun but brutal gameplay. Doom (I actually preferred Heretic), a hard core player could attempt the game with a pistol on nightmare (equivalent to me choosing to go armorless with wooden tools on hardcore) , but give your average player a BFG and feel the burn! Also, watch the tears when said player dies with the BFG and only has a lousy pistol again. Here's the thing though, Doom never forced me to play with just a pistol. It constantly ramped up the rewards and withheld rewards to those who were not adventurous enough or were careless (ammo). It would have never hit the level of popularity it did if it chose to abuse its users.
Edit: Footissimo, I just noticed that you have 26(?!) episodes of a Vinyl Fantasy play through? I know what I'm watching after I reboot my browser. :laugh.gif:
Ah Sandoze.. this is a proper hard survival map..more akin to vechs maps before 1.8 and before he went a little softer...and, if you dont mind me saying, it sounds like you perhaps didn't think about how to overcome certain challenges..sorry!
From watching your videos I can only conclude that you have more patience than I could ever muster. Your water transport, mob spawner and personal attention to detail is more than I could of ever imagined in time investment and ingenuity outside of an SMP server. Kudos!
The weird things is, I wasn't anywhere near it. I was in...
Broken Wizard, so my guess is a stray Ghast fireball hit the tree. I'm surprised it could travel that far though.
So far I've done the tree, the pyramid, the citadel, the snow area, and Broken Wizard, in that order.
I'm loving the map. I love how each area has a distinct feel, and they are big enough and challenging enough that you can't just breeze through them. You have to really get to know the area and conquer it.
I'm amazed at the variety of aesthetics that you've created with such a limited set of blocks. There are blocks that I've always considered unconditionally ugly, like bedrock, that you've managed to use in an attractive way. And you've used block combinations I never would have thought of, like end stone and clay. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this general topic. I'm trying to break out of cliches like forests, castles, dungeons, etc. but the blocks seem to pull me back in.
Don't worry about people complaining that the map is too hard. From reading Vech's thread, I've learned that no matter what kind of map you make, there will always be some people who think it's too hard and some who think it's too easy. It feels just right to me. I think some people just aren't willing to get creative. Broken Wizard is impossible if you just run in swinging your sword, but there are plenty of other ways to do it. The piston is mightier than the sword.
There is one issue that I keep running into though. The floating islands between the zones are extremely difficult. The ones in the void fog are as hard as anything else on the map, if not harder. But I wouldn't complain about them being too hard except that it is trivially easy to skip them and just build your own bridge. You have to go out of your way just to get to the islands, let alone get through them. And then you have to build a bridge anyway if you want a railway. So I can't bring myself to go through the islands because it just feels like I'm spinning my wheels, or like I have to deliberately hurt myself just to follow the main path of the map. And because I always bridge in to the zones, I sometimes end up doing them backwards, because the places that are attractive to bridge to tend to be at the end of the quest.
Actually, a related problem is that the areas are just really far apart. On normal view distance, I can barely see the next area over.
But to finish on a positive note, yeah, it's an amazing piece of work and you've really pushed the envelope of what can be done in Minecraft.
The weird things is, I wasn't anywhere near it. I was in...
Broken Wizard, so my guess is a stray Ghast fireball hit the tree. I'm surprised it could travel that far though.
So far I've done the tree, the pyramid, the citadel, the snow area, and Broken Wizard, in that order.
I'm loving the map. I love how each area has a distinct feel, and they are big enough and challenging enough that you can't just breeze through them. You have to really get to know the area and conquer it.
I'm amazed at the variety of aesthetics that you've created with such a limited set of blocks. There are blocks that I've always considered unconditionally ugly, like bedrock, that you've managed to use in an attractive way. And you've used block combinations I never would have thought of, like end stone and clay. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this general topic. I'm trying to break out of cliches like forests, castles, dungeons, etc. but the blocks seem to pull me back in.
Don't worry about people complaining that the map is too hard. From reading Vech's thread, I've learned that no matter what kind of map you make, there will always be some people who think it's too hard and some who think it's too easy. It feels just right to me. I think some people just aren't willing to get creative. Broken Wizard is impossible if you just run in swinging your sword, but there are plenty of other ways to do it. The piston is mightier than the sword.
There is one issue that I keep running into though. The floating islands between the zones are extremely difficult. The ones in the void fog are as hard as anything else on the map, if not harder. But I wouldn't complain about them being too hard except that it is trivially easy to skip them and just build your own bridge. You have to go out of your way just to get to the islands, let alone get through them. And then you have to build a bridge anyway if you want a railway. So I can't bring myself to go through the islands because it just feels like I'm spinning my wheels, or like I have to deliberately hurt myself just to follow the main path of the map. And because I always bridge in to the zones, I sometimes end up doing them backwards, because the places that are attractive to bridge to tend to be at the end of the quest.
Actually, a related problem is that the areas are just really far apart. On normal view distance, I can barely see the next area over.
But to finish on a positive note, yeah, it's an amazing piece of work and you've really pushed the envelope of what can be done in Minecraft.
Thanks a lot last_username! Appreciate the positive comments and the constructive feedback. It's awesome that you've kept me up to date on this thread.
Aesthetics: I'm actually putting together a proper series for my youtube channel that will delve into the map's development. I think the map has been out long enough to start breaking it down bit by bit and trying to be interactive with my audience. I imagine I'll start the series with a lot of terraforming and design aesthetics since thats what is catching people's eye. I'm sure I'll be posting to this thread as I put out new videos :smile.gif:
The floating islands: Yeah they are difficult but, that's how I like it. The original segues from area to area were ribbon style instead of islands but, after lighting most of a ribbon when you get to the end the mobs start capping and it gets pretty ugly. The islands allow you to get close and lure bulky groups of mobs into the void which is my way of easing the player into the map's theme of turning the terrible stuff against itself by thinking differently with your survival strategies. This is something I worked very hard on. If players can get into a proper mindset and adapt to my game it turns into poetry (or at least attempts to do so.) There's always a facepalming-ly simple solution to everything I throw at you;) On the other hand, you always have the option of bridging to where you're going. It's good to have options :biggrin.gif:
I don't think I'll do another open-world map for a while. There's an almost infinite amount of factors to consider in the design, resource management, loot & food system... not to mention the player having the same amount of options. That on top of difficulty balance from area to area and considering the infinite amount of variables amounted to at least half of the 100s of hours I've put into VF being spent testing. People always ask me how long did this take? I assume they are bedazzled by the scenery but, time spent terraforming and constructing the map is less probably than 100 hours. It's the GAME DESIGN and testing /debugging that I have literally spent endless hours on. I think the final product was worth it wether people like it or not because I made the map I wanted to make. I had no following as a custom mapper prior to VF's release. Considering that this map is becoming fairly hot lately, I don't think I'll ever have the same amount of freedom again.
My next map is a mini-map but when I release the full VFII it will probably lean towards a linear-branching feel with a minecart system already in place. I like my mine carts quite a bit :biggrin.gif:
Custom Map I HAVE EVER PLAYED :biggrin.gif:. I have played it with my friend and we had fun getting all discs!! Many
I don't know about love but, there will be a whole lot of "action" lol
Instead, I'll summarize. While me and 3 of my friends had initially planned on starting tonight, one of them was unable to, so it was only 3 of us - Me, Websurfer, and Nicejacket. Having already played the beginning, we quickly grabbed
We also were aware which trees were filled with lava, and put this information to use, allowing us to light up large swathes of the island in a relatively short time. Jacket had to leave during this period, so it was just me and Surfer.
During this time, I came across this, and felt obligated to take a picture. Poor guy was afraid to come down.
We built a base shortly thereafter, and added a mob spawner atop it so that we wouldn't have to worry too much about food (Although, due to the number of times we died, we didn't end up needing to fear going hungry too much).
The base.
The trap.
While all of this was going on, we stumbled across something.
The two of us wrapped it up shortly thereafter. It was a lot of fun, and we look forward to tackling some of the dungeons tomorrow. Kudos once more three_two for making such a magnificent map.
Oh, and by the end of this all, we had completely desecrated the spawn.
Whoops.
*Reads episode title, can't remember adding a decision making skeleton, definitely interested
Bad Dreams....SCAAAARRRRY xD
Thanks IcePhoenix! The next map will be more action than survival/adventure. It may be a bit of a diversion from my first map's style :biggrin.gif:
Whooaa!! I is excited about this! Good luck Pause and Beef :biggrin.gif:
sooo hard T_T
I figured. It's just not what I expected at all. ended up dying a million times even to simple things such as falling off the island. I think I'll be able to pull off a stable beginning when I try again this evening.
The Big Tree is kind of my own brand of difficult which involves disorientation as a means of dickery. I guess I'll add dementia to my repertoire as well xD
Shears mate!
I've played this map, as well as most of Vechs creations. I will say that this is a great effort but becomes a bit to unwieldy at times (much like Vechs earlier projects).
As a game designer our biggest concern is player retention. I understand that these maps are meant to be difficult and 'Rage Quit' but in turn you're creating large world areas that will never be explored or seen by your 'average' CTM adventurer who wants nothing more than to experience what's lacking in straight Minecraft, a game and a goal. There needs to be a balance between difficulty and reward, something I'm having a hard time finding with this map as well as early Vechs maps. His Spellbound has seemed to be the most mature and accessible by far in his series and honestly would be the bar I would set were I to make a map. Not perfect, but undeniably rewarding to play.
Just a bit of feedback and yes there are SPOILERS sans the spoiler tags, sorry. Note: I've played the snow area, FUUUU tree and Broken Wizard area.
The starting area: Is great. It's nice to see a challenge out of the gate and as has been said on this thread, it can be conquered. A good challenge map should make the player grateful to be past the starting area and feel the rewards of actually 'starting' the game and accumulating wealth/power. I was indeed grateful. Although, I half expected to be able to return to the area in the future, stronger, more prepared and clear out whatever I did not have the patience for in my initial beginner attempt. As you'll see that doesn't happen.
My first mistake was going to the snow golem area (whatever that's called, sorry) which led to my first restart. It was insanely challenging without any resources (no food, no wood, no torches). Which quite honestly was an interesting challenge and one I hope to experience again, prepared.
The Tree: I admit it, I like elements of survival and by finding trees and other renewable resources I felt a sense of reward and began to really settle in. Renewable resources was huge and really brought me back from a very unsettling beginning. The tree is well designed and yes, disorienting and huge!
But, I began to realize something in this area. In the entire game I only felt that dying was punishing once. That was when I fell from the tree with a full suit of armor only to almost grab it as it disappeared before my eyes (I think I saved pants).
This is an important point. Dying did not matter, it only set me back to wherever I had made a bed. I had nothing throughout the majority of my game so what's another death other than grabbing some wooden tools and trying again. If anything, dying provided me with a way to no longer be hungry. Take away: Offering a (somewhat) steady stream of small rewards, ala Vechs enchanted signs, some armor, a minor enchantment makes dying much more painful and punishing.
Next point:
I did grow tired of the tree and hoping to find resources that might make it easier to fight off the remaining enemies and clear the areas that just seemed to repeat themselves every time I head up a new branch, I continued my adventure into a new area.
See a pattern here? I expect that by moving on to another area (advancing) I will become stronger and be able to hopefully clear a previous area that I just couldn't tweak out the final reward.
Would we have played the original Zelda if, as the difficulty ramped up, we had the same character and resources as our initial start?
Anyhow,
We get to where I eventually finished playing the map, Broken Wizard. I headed to Broken Wizard packing up my survival supplies. Glowstone Mines is a nice breather and I really looked forward to utilizing them but, the Wizard towers are just insane. We're talking early 80s arcade games where they'd just throw enemies and speed things up until it was impossible to win and they took your quarter. There was nothing I could see from the beginning area to this point that could have prepared me for the onslaught. So I stopped playing your map.
To correct this I dare say CTM map makers such as yourself need to take a good hard look at your area difficulties and whether or not you're able to provide the player with the resources and ample rewards to conquer the area. I cannot imagine that your average CTM player is looking to constantly be squashed and disappointed. Not to keep referring to Vechs but his SpellBound Crypts was probably the only area that was impossible to conquer by shear force (unless you had extreme patience). This was fine, the player at this point has been amply rewarded for his endeavors (signs, brewing, enchanting as well as wool and survival resources) and must suck it up and, at the very least, mole his way to victory, fine. On the other hand in Vinyl Fantasy, after exploring 3-4 areas I'm roughly in the same position and character growth situation I was in as when I started (no armor, wooden tools and wooden weapons) and no desire to continue. Which leaves how much of your world that you no doubt spent hours on unexplored?
Keep in mind, there already exists a hardcore setting for those players who want the ultimate challenge but for those of us that want a 'game' this map comes so close but misses the mark.
First off, use the spoiler tags dude. I appreciate the feedback but, you don't have to ruin it for everyone else. I sincerely hope you do the right thing and edit your post accordingly.
Second off, this is an open-world map of high difficulty rating and you're comparing it to Spellbound Crypts (it's actually Spellbound Caves) which is a linear-branching map with an easy difficulty rating. It's important to realize I'm not Vechs. I have used his CTM game mechanic yes but, I have otherwise gone out of my way to separate myself from Vechs and the hordes of CTM clones out there.
That being said, the rest of your review just reads more like a fail blog than a proper critique. Even with an open mind, I found it hard to agree with anything you said. Mostly because of how mis-informed and unexperienced you sound. Most experienced CTM players would tell you that it sounds like you just didn't play well. I wish you could read it from an outside perspective. Sometimes what's on your mind gets overpowered by the true facts of the matter when you try to put it on paper.
I also hope you don't think I'm just butt-hurt as a result of your lackluster review. I don't want my words to be taken as reactionary or hurtful in any way. I've worked in the arts industry for many years and I've been the subject of many critiques. It's very rare that words can hurt my butt.
side note: Out of curiosity I checked all the topics you have posted or replied to and from what I could tell, this was the only CTM map there. Now I'm more curious as to why you singled my map out. I have have a few ideas on that but, instead I leave you with this: In the future, it would be good for you to know that mapmakers always appreciate feedback but, if you want to review maps you should start your own thread.
Regards,
three_two
Thanks Koipen! I'm glad you are enjoying. Everything that is terrible in this map has an easy solution (although not always obvious)...
I've played Vechs, Twisted Logic and your map. Honestly for me Vechs was the only person who has a (one) truly good map that, as I said was a mature piece of work and that was SpellBound Caves (yes I said Spellbound crypts and I meant it, as I was citing his crypt area). The reason is simple: He rewarded the player, made it a gaming experience and continued to get progressively harder while his early areas became increasingly easier.
I actually focused on your map because it was by far an amazing freshman piece of work and hope your sophomore effort is even better. But, as I watched the trailer one thing made me hesitant about trying it out. Is it simply eye candy or is it a gaming experience that, as I said, Minecraft lacks.
As it turns out it's just a hard core none stop action map with very little gaming payoff. See, I have the opposite problem as you. I'm a game designer and engineer who loves rewarding and challenging a player but have no interesting in doing the 'art' behind a map.
Anyhow, my comments were only meant to help so here's the summary:
tldr;
Reward the player and give them a reason to regret dying. As the player advances to further/stronger areas power them up and give them a carrot to continue and revisit old areas that may have been too difficult. Don't Arcade-Overwhelm the player, you spent a lot of time creating a work of art and a game, make sure your players experience all your hard work.
If these things are actually in your map then you've failed. Example: we telemetric all of our games. We had a tutorial and a slow ramp up in one of our games. We found that on step x of our tutorial we lost 40% of our players (they hadn't invested any time and could easily put it down and move on to another way to spend their time). We pushed an update that resulted in +90% of our players making through the tutorial and the beginning levels which resulted in a retention rate that made our work and time worthwhile (or at least better) because we got them to the point where they were invested, rewarded and wanted to keep playing. Sadly you have no way to tell how many users start your map and never finish. My guess is it'd be disappointing. Don't telemetric your game off the number of downloads.
Hey, take my advice or don't. You've got the skills to make a really nice looking map. I'm suggesting you make it more of a gaming experience.
Very fair. My expectations may not have been the map maker's intent. I have a knee jerk assumption that when someone creates something they want it consumed by a large audience and after playing for several days I have some very strong opinions and suggestions on making the current breed of CTMs (hey, let's make something beautiful and just put spawners everywhere!) into something that can be enjoyable and consumable to a larger audience. Yes, Vinyl Fantasy just happened to be the final straw which is why three_two ended up on the receiving end of my computer.
Anyhow, it's not my intent to hijack this thread. This is a great map that looks wonderful. If you enjoy a challenge and you just want to be, to bastardize the words of three_two, butt-brutalized by a CTM this is (and just about every other CTM) the way to go. Yes, this map hates its users.
That said, feel free to PM me (You can do that on these forums right?) and tell me what I'm doing wrong, maybe I'm impatient? A newb? Don't know how to block with his wooden sword? Also, three_two, if you want to collaborate on a future CTM and gamify it a bit more I'd be more than happy to help. You have some superb map making skillz.
Allow me one last, probably poor, example of fun but brutal gameplay. Doom (I actually preferred Heretic), a hard core player could attempt the game with a pistol on nightmare (equivalent to me choosing to go armorless with wooden tools on hardcore) , but give your average player a BFG and feel the burn! Also, watch the tears when said player dies with the BFG and only has a lousy pistol again. Here's the thing though, Doom never forced me to play with just a pistol. It constantly ramped up the rewards and withheld rewards to those who were not adventurous enough or were careless (ammo). It would have never hit the level of popularity it did if it chose to abuse its users.
Edit: Footissimo, I just noticed that you have 26(?!) episodes of a Vinyl Fantasy play through? I know what I'm watching after I reboot my browser. :laugh.gif:
From watching your videos I can only conclude that you have more patience than I could ever muster. Your water transport, mob spawner and personal attention to detail is more than I could of ever imagined in time investment and ingenuity outside of an SMP server. Kudos!
The weird things is, I wasn't anywhere near it. I was in...
Broken Wizard, so my guess is a stray Ghast fireball hit the tree. I'm surprised it could travel that far though.
So far I've done the tree, the pyramid, the citadel, the snow area, and Broken Wizard, in that order.
I'm loving the map. I love how each area has a distinct feel, and they are big enough and challenging enough that you can't just breeze through them. You have to really get to know the area and conquer it.
I'm amazed at the variety of aesthetics that you've created with such a limited set of blocks. There are blocks that I've always considered unconditionally ugly, like bedrock, that you've managed to use in an attractive way. And you've used block combinations I never would have thought of, like end stone and clay. I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this general topic. I'm trying to break out of cliches like forests, castles, dungeons, etc. but the blocks seem to pull me back in.
Don't worry about people complaining that the map is too hard. From reading Vech's thread, I've learned that no matter what kind of map you make, there will always be some people who think it's too hard and some who think it's too easy. It feels just right to me. I think some people just aren't willing to get creative. Broken Wizard is impossible if you just run in swinging your sword, but there are plenty of other ways to do it. The piston is mightier than the sword.
There is one issue that I keep running into though. The floating islands between the zones are extremely difficult. The ones in the void fog are as hard as anything else on the map, if not harder. But I wouldn't complain about them being too hard except that it is trivially easy to skip them and just build your own bridge. You have to go out of your way just to get to the islands, let alone get through them. And then you have to build a bridge anyway if you want a railway. So I can't bring myself to go through the islands because it just feels like I'm spinning my wheels, or like I have to deliberately hurt myself just to follow the main path of the map. And because I always bridge in to the zones, I sometimes end up doing them backwards, because the places that are attractive to bridge to tend to be at the end of the quest.
Actually, a related problem is that the areas are just really far apart. On normal view distance, I can barely see the next area over.
But to finish on a positive note, yeah, it's an amazing piece of work and you've really pushed the envelope of what can be done in Minecraft.
Thanks a lot last_username! Appreciate the positive comments and the constructive feedback. It's awesome that you've kept me up to date on this thread.
Aesthetics: I'm actually putting together a proper series for my youtube channel that will delve into the map's development. I think the map has been out long enough to start breaking it down bit by bit and trying to be interactive with my audience. I imagine I'll start the series with a lot of terraforming and design aesthetics since thats what is catching people's eye. I'm sure I'll be posting to this thread as I put out new videos :smile.gif:
The floating islands: Yeah they are difficult but, that's how I like it. The original segues from area to area were ribbon style instead of islands but, after lighting most of a ribbon when you get to the end the mobs start capping and it gets pretty ugly. The islands allow you to get close and lure bulky groups of mobs into the void which is my way of easing the player into the map's theme of turning the terrible stuff against itself by thinking differently with your survival strategies. This is something I worked very hard on. If players can get into a proper mindset and adapt to my game it turns into poetry (or at least attempts to do so.) There's always a facepalming-ly simple solution to everything I throw at you;) On the other hand, you always have the option of bridging to where you're going. It's good to have options :biggrin.gif:
I don't think I'll do another open-world map for a while. There's an almost infinite amount of factors to consider in the design, resource management, loot & food system... not to mention the player having the same amount of options. That on top of difficulty balance from area to area and considering the infinite amount of variables amounted to at least half of the 100s of hours I've put into VF being spent testing. People always ask me how long did this take? I assume they are bedazzled by the scenery but, time spent terraforming and constructing the map is less probably than 100 hours. It's the
My next map is a mini-map but when I release the full VFII it will probably lean towards a linear-branching feel with a minecart system already in place. I like my mine carts quite a bit :biggrin.gif: