Yeah, I can totally back you up on this. The QT Community see's it a ton when we're streaming MC live, and people just come in and are just so disrespectful. One kid asked something like 'what fuels can you use for your furnace?' and half the chat told them to google it or stop being a noob and go find out. This was in our earlier days =/ It's a lot of work keeping a chat nice (which I think we've managed to do finally) when everyone's to busy wanting to be the first one to tell a noob off.
WE CAN DO IT. WE CAN MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER PLACE ONE MINCRAFT FORUM AT A TIME. WHO'S WITH ME?
If I have to choose between thinking like the above, and being mocked for it, or descending into the same stygian abyss of nihilism that nearly everyone else online seems to inhabit, I know which I prefer.
It's really not a difficult choice to make.
Yeah, I don't doubt your analysis of the kinds of people who inhabit internet forums/online games. Modern alienation + internet = cesspit self amusement. I know it certainly applies to me (if thankfully less so the older I get...) (By the way, have you had a read of Hannah Arendt? I recommend 'the human condition'. Good explanation of what has gone so wrong in modern society in the last couple of hundred years.)
I think part of the problem though is the mode of communication itself. When you talk to a person in the world you relate to them differently. You engage with them with far more than words, but with tone, with body language, and with knowledge that you are in a shared world. This is all gone online. It's not just that the internet is anonymous, but in a way it is also world-less. No past, no future, no consequences. Hence nothing matters, and any claim that things should matter is met with the kind of response you noted.
The scary thing is its not just forums like here, for example, but anywhere online. Take online units run by universities. I know from people who have moderated _university_ unit forums that students start behaving really poorly in that setting. Abuse/complaining and all kinds of BS they would never try in an actual tutorial.
* a revolutionary doctrine that advocates destruction of the social system for its own sake
* nihilistic delusion: the delusion that things (or everything, including the self) do not exist; a sense that everything is unreal
* complete denial of all established authority and institutions
No; I'm pretty sure I mean nihilism. This is an extremely accurate description of 4chan.
i really don't see this forum being anything like 4chan. sure it has trolls and 4chan memes leak through but this is true for a lot of forums. like i said before the type of negativity i see most often seems to stem from frustration with people who feel the need to create a whole new thread about something that shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to research. I'm all for helping when help is needed but there's only so many redundant threads you can go to before your responses become shorter and snarkier. i don't see the negativity as some sort of fist shaking towards the 'establishment'.
I think OP is a pretty cool guy. eh judges everyone he seas as morally inferoir and doesnt afraid of anything
Like I said to Pence, this is generally the standard response that gets thrown at me. The usual aim is to shame me into silence. It has gone close to working at times, but after some of my recent experience, it never will again.
If perfection was a prerequisite, I would not be here.
I find it mildly amusing that every generation seems to think the current generation is so much more subversive and destructive to the moral fiber than the last.
The only universal constant is CHANGE. The past wasn't "better" than the present in any way. People just perceive the past to be "good" because YOUTH is good. Now that you're older, you resent youth because you are no longer a member of that exclusive club and you're resistant to change and youth is naturally progressive and/or subversive.
I'm 30, and I have no delusions about the fact that 15 years ago, I was just as much of an obnoxious ***** as the majority of the kids on these forums. My generation had different challenges and different experiences, sure.. But the progressive nature of youth is and has been persistant throughout the ages. It's a good thing, really. Without progress we stagnate as a species. All change is good change. Destruction tills the soil for new growth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
I'd argue that although there are places on the internet where it's cool to say/post whatever the hell you want, and that I personally believe that these places absolutely SHOULD exist, these forums aren't one of those places.
These are, as the OP points out, moderated forums.
I understand that there's frustration when people see the same threads over and over again, and they start to get shitty. That doesn't mean that it's okay to bash the hell out of somebody for not using the search feature. More importantly, it doesn't accomplish anything. Generally speaking, people respond much better to a polite nudge in the right direction than a firm kick in the groin. You can tell somebody that they should've searched without being a ****, and you can answer common questions that you're sick of hearing without being a ****.
"But they don't learn!" you're (possibly) screaming "I tried being polite but these ****ing dumbasses keep doing the same stupid crap!"
And that's true and valid, but return to the paragraph above. People respond better to politeness anyway generally speaking. You are going to be a more effective force for removing your annoyance if you confront it diplomatically instead of with dickishness in almost all cases on the internet. In real life this doesn't always hold up, but on the internet it is absolutely true 99 times out of 100.
Finally, it doesn't cost you anything to be polite. If you're really too pissed off about something to make a polite response, just don't post anything - that's even easier than spewing impotent rage.
As for other behaviour that doesn't fall under the umbrella of people being assholes because they're annoyed about the same threads/questions cropping up every five minutes, refer to the point about absolute unconditional freedom to do whatever the hell you want maybe not being an appropriate thing to apply to a MODERATED community like this one. Obvious trolls/flamers who don't contribute anything SHOULD just be removed from the community, and if you disagree, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that point, unless you've got a REAL compelling argument.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Relax. Take a deep breath. Everything's not going to be O.K.
Check out my gaming blog, Zombie Arcade. Now with Minecraft videos!
Obvious Trolls/Flamers also paid for this game and also have a right to post here. Rather than more moderation from moderators I'd like to see the community moderate itself (like it is, right now). If someone is a **** to someone else, then it's "our" job as a community to step in and say "Hey, show the person some respect. Don't be a ****."
It's as simple as that. You'd be amazed how effective peer pressure is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
personally i appreciate the environment here. when a question is valid or an idea is interesting it gets rewarded. if it's duplicate content that takes only a few moments to find on your own or spam about how a creeper killed you today it gets flamed into the ground. it's a culling process. do i like it when i get trolled/negative feedback? no not really but i get over it and if anything it helps me be more selective with what i think needs to be posted. intolerant to the temperature? find your way out of the cookery.
Obvious Trolls/Flamers also paid for this game and also have a right to post here.
No they don't. Nobody has a "right" to post here. This is private property, and we're only allowed to make use of it with the owner's permission, which permission can be revoked at any time for any reason.
intolerant to the temperature? find your way out of the cookery.
Except it tends to backfire more often than not.
With guys building 8-bit CPUs getting told their build is useless crap and people building insane or just cool looking structures for the pleasure of it getting stomped on for not posting how cool and awesome they are for preventing the 184th creeper that tried to destroy their superubermegaawesome turbo-encabulator mob-trap, or somesuch gobshite.
Or, yaknow, people being flamed and trolled ad nauseam for complaining about a bug or a change in game mechanic.
Natural selection isn't necessarily superior to artificial selection.
I very rarely see people getting flamed who post constructive/interesting videos. Sometimes they will catch a little bit of criticism or a troll will attempt to rear its ugly head, but normally the trolls are quickly squashed and/or ignored in threads like that..
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
intolerant to the temperature? find your way out of the cookery.
Except it tends to backfire more often than not.
With guys building 8-bit CPUs getting told their build is useless crap and people building insane or just cool looking structures for the pleasure of it getting stomped on for not posting how cool and awesome they are for preventing the 184th creeper that tried to destroy their superubermegaawesome turbo-encabulator mob-trap, or somesuch gobshite.
Or, yaknow, people being flamed and trolled ad nauseam for complaining about a bug or a change in game mechanic.
Natural selection isn't necessarily superior to artificial selection.
true enough but this can be true in real life with anything someone puts up for critique. i suppose you just need to shake that stuff off. for the most part those voices are small and ignored. i just donno how effective it is to make an entire thread trying to shame everyone into submission than it is just to be a nice guy. lead by example. you only fan the flames by standing on a soap box condemning everyone for their wicked ways.
Obvious Trolls/Flamers also paid for this game and also have a right to post here.
No they don't. Nobody has a "right" to post here. This is private property, and we're only allowed to make use of it with the owner's permission, which permission can be revoked at any time for any reason.
Legally, sure. But it's up to the owner(s) to assign moderators and it's up to the moderators to decide who has the "right" to post here and who doesn't. So this entire discourse about how "Waaa trolls are out of control" is rather moot, isn't it? It's not up to you, or me, or any other mere "member" to make those decisions so I think people should just stop bitching about it.
It's real simple, people: If you don't like what someone has to say, don't read that person or don't respond to them. Just block/ignore them. I don't see what's so ****ing hard about that. Oh, and as I mentioned above: If you're offended by the fact that there are children reading "profane" material, then you should encourage their parents to supervise them a little better. It's not up to me (or anyone else) to babysit and we shouldn't be forced to censor ourselves because kids are being raised by neglectful parents.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
i just donno how effective it is to make an entire thread trying to shame everyone into submission than it is just to be a nice guy. lead by example. you only fan the flames by standing on a soap box condemning everyone for their wicked ways.
If you go back and read my initial post, you will notice that I didn't actually condemn individuals. I cited a number of different forms of behaviour (three, specifically) which I felt were negative.
Truthfully, I don't really understand why anyone accused me of having a moral superiority complex; and would tend to suspect that in the case of those who did so, that probably indicated that they themselves were feeling guilty, as I did not specifically name them at all.
As someone else said in response to Pence's post in particular, it is fairly obvious that in the case of at least a few people, I genuinely struck a nerve. I *am* responsible for *what I wrote,* but if others feel guilty in response to it, and then lash out at me because that's less uncomfortable than actually looking at their own behaviour, *that* is something which I am *not* responsible for.
Obvious Trolls/Flamers also paid for this game and also have a right to post here.
No they don't. Nobody has a "right" to post here. This is private property, and we're only allowed to make use of it with the owner's permission, which permission can be revoked at any time for any reason.
Legally, sure. But it's up to the owner(s) to assign moderators and it's up to the moderators to decide who has the "right" to post here and who doesn't. So this entire discourse about how "Waaa trolls are out of control" is rather moot, isn't it? It's not up to you, or me, or any other mere "member" to make those decisions so I think people should just stop bitching about it.
Quote from EtherImp »
Obvious Trolls/Flamers also paid for this game and also have a right to post here. Rather than more moderation from moderators I'd like to see the community moderate itself (like it is, right now). If someone is a **** to someone else, then it's "our" job as a community to step in and say "Hey, show the person some respect. Don't be a ****."
It's as simple as that. You'd be amazed how effective peer pressure is.
I don't really understand why anyone accused me of having a moral superiority complex ...
... but if others feel guilty in response to it, and then lash out at me because that's less uncomfortable than actually looking at their own behaviour, *that* is something which I am *not* responsible for.
How are you so blind?
This was my exact point. What kind of life do you live man? You amaze me.
I'm glad that you feel proud to wear the title of hypocrite. It fits you better than most.
I'm glad that you feel proud to wear the title of hypocrite. It fits you better than most.
First you ask how I live; then you again call me a hypocrite. There's a logical conundrum, here. How do you know I'm a hypocrite, if you admit that you don't know how I live? :wink.gif:
1. We, as a community, should be able to moderate dickheads through peer pressure and common courtesy. If the community doesn't accept other members of the community acting like dicks, then the dicks will be more hesitant to be dicks. It's not up to us to say who has the RIGHT or NOT to post here. We can only encourage or discourage certain behavior by how we respond to it.
2. Trolls/Flamers DO have a right to post here, by the logic that if the owners/moderators didn't want them posting there, they would ban them on sight. Therefore, it's ultimately their decision who stays and who goes.
If you don't understand this, I'm not sure how much simpler I can make it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Spark becomes a flame.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
[MOD EDIT] User warned for meme/image/spam-post.
http://www.qubetubers.com
I have a feeling this thread is going to make it to epic status... It already has all of the necessary components.
[MOD EDIT] User warned for meme/image/spam-post.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
Yeah, I don't doubt your analysis of the kinds of people who inhabit internet forums/online games. Modern alienation + internet = cesspit self amusement. I know it certainly applies to me (if thankfully less so the older I get...) (By the way, have you had a read of Hannah Arendt? I recommend 'the human condition'. Good explanation of what has gone so wrong in modern society in the last couple of hundred years.)
I think part of the problem though is the mode of communication itself. When you talk to a person in the world you relate to them differently. You engage with them with far more than words, but with tone, with body language, and with knowledge that you are in a shared world. This is all gone online. It's not just that the internet is anonymous, but in a way it is also world-less. No past, no future, no consequences. Hence nothing matters, and any claim that things should matter is met with the kind of response you noted.
The scary thing is its not just forums like here, for example, but anywhere online. Take online units run by universities. I know from people who have moderated _university_ unit forums that students start behaving really poorly in that setting. Abuse/complaining and all kinds of BS they would never try in an actual tutorial.
i really don't see this forum being anything like 4chan. sure it has trolls and 4chan memes leak through but this is true for a lot of forums. like i said before the type of negativity i see most often seems to stem from frustration with people who feel the need to create a whole new thread about something that shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to research. I'm all for helping when help is needed but there's only so many redundant threads you can go to before your responses become shorter and snarkier. i don't see the negativity as some sort of fist shaking towards the 'establishment'.
Like I said to Pence, this is generally the standard response that gets thrown at me. The usual aim is to shame me into silence. It has gone close to working at times, but after some of my recent experience, it never will again.
If perfection was a prerequisite, I would not be here.
The only universal constant is CHANGE. The past wasn't "better" than the present in any way. People just perceive the past to be "good" because YOUTH is good. Now that you're older, you resent youth because you are no longer a member of that exclusive club and you're resistant to change and youth is naturally progressive and/or subversive.
I'm 30, and I have no delusions about the fact that 15 years ago, I was just as much of an obnoxious ***** as the majority of the kids on these forums. My generation had different challenges and different experiences, sure.. But the progressive nature of youth is and has been persistant throughout the ages. It's a good thing, really. Without progress we stagnate as a species. All change is good change. Destruction tills the soil for new growth.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
These are, as the OP points out, moderated forums.
I understand that there's frustration when people see the same threads over and over again, and they start to get shitty. That doesn't mean that it's okay to bash the hell out of somebody for not using the search feature. More importantly, it doesn't accomplish anything. Generally speaking, people respond much better to a polite nudge in the right direction than a firm kick in the groin. You can tell somebody that they should've searched without being a ****, and you can answer common questions that you're sick of hearing without being a ****.
"But they don't learn!" you're (possibly) screaming "I tried being polite but these ****ing dumbasses keep doing the same stupid crap!"
And that's true and valid, but return to the paragraph above. People respond better to politeness anyway generally speaking. You are going to be a more effective force for removing your annoyance if you confront it diplomatically instead of with dickishness in almost all cases on the internet. In real life this doesn't always hold up, but on the internet it is absolutely true 99 times out of 100.
Finally, it doesn't cost you anything to be polite. If you're really too pissed off about something to make a polite response, just don't post anything - that's even easier than spewing impotent rage.
As for other behaviour that doesn't fall under the umbrella of people being assholes because they're annoyed about the same threads/questions cropping up every five minutes, refer to the point about absolute unconditional freedom to do whatever the hell you want maybe not being an appropriate thing to apply to a MODERATED community like this one. Obvious trolls/flamers who don't contribute anything SHOULD just be removed from the community, and if you disagree, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that point, unless you've got a REAL compelling argument.
Relax. Take a deep breath. Everything's not going to be O.K.
It's as simple as that. You'd be amazed how effective peer pressure is.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
No they don't. Nobody has a "right" to post here. This is private property, and we're only allowed to make use of it with the owner's permission, which permission can be revoked at any time for any reason.
I very rarely see people getting flamed who post constructive/interesting videos. Sometimes they will catch a little bit of criticism or a troll will attempt to rear its ugly head, but normally the trolls are quickly squashed and/or ignored in threads like that..
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
true enough but this can be true in real life with anything someone puts up for critique. i suppose you just need to shake that stuff off. for the most part those voices are small and ignored. i just donno how effective it is to make an entire thread trying to shame everyone into submission than it is just to be a nice guy. lead by example. you only fan the flames by standing on a soap box condemning everyone for their wicked ways.
Legally, sure. But it's up to the owner(s) to assign moderators and it's up to the moderators to decide who has the "right" to post here and who doesn't. So this entire discourse about how "Waaa trolls are out of control" is rather moot, isn't it? It's not up to you, or me, or any other mere "member" to make those decisions so I think people should just stop bitching about it.
It's real simple, people: If you don't like what someone has to say, don't read that person or don't respond to them. Just block/ignore them. I don't see what's so ****ing hard about that. Oh, and as I mentioned above: If you're offended by the fact that there are children reading "profane" material, then you should encourage their parents to supervise them a little better. It's not up to me (or anyone else) to babysit and we shouldn't be forced to censor ourselves because kids are being raised by neglectful parents.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.
If you go back and read my initial post, you will notice that I didn't actually condemn individuals. I cited a number of different forms of behaviour (three, specifically) which I felt were negative.
Truthfully, I don't really understand why anyone accused me of having a moral superiority complex; and would tend to suspect that in the case of those who did so, that probably indicated that they themselves were feeling guilty, as I did not specifically name them at all.
As someone else said in response to Pence's post in particular, it is fairly obvious that in the case of at least a few people, I genuinely struck a nerve. I *am* responsible for *what I wrote,* but if others feel guilty in response to it, and then lash out at me because that's less uncomfortable than actually looking at their own behaviour, *that* is something which I am *not* responsible for.
So which is it?
How are you so blind?
This was my exact point. What kind of life do you live man? You amaze me.
I'm glad that you feel proud to wear the title of hypocrite. It fits you better than most.
First you ask how I live; then you again call me a hypocrite. There's a logical conundrum, here. How do you know I'm a hypocrite, if you admit that you don't know how I live? :wink.gif:
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
1. We, as a community, should be able to moderate dickheads through peer pressure and common courtesy. If the community doesn't accept other members of the community acting like dicks, then the dicks will be more hesitant to be dicks. It's not up to us to say who has the RIGHT or NOT to post here. We can only encourage or discourage certain behavior by how we respond to it.
2. Trolls/Flamers DO have a right to post here, by the logic that if the owners/moderators didn't want them posting there, they would ban them on sight. Therefore, it's ultimately their decision who stays and who goes.
If you don't understand this, I'm not sure how much simpler I can make it.
Flame becomes a fire.
Forge a blade to slay the stranger.
Take whatever we desire.
Move by will alone.