^ That. The moderators who were pushing for the closure of PPNS are trying to make this forum more focused on the game and thus geared to the game's largest audience: early teenagers.
While I respect what they're trying to do, I can't help but think that they ended up snubbing a lot of people in the process by removing the section outright instead of looking for an alternative solution.
^ That. The moderators who were pushing for the closure of PPNS are trying to make this forum more focused on the game and thus geared to the game's largest audience: early teenagers.
While I respect what they're trying to do, I can't help but think that they ended up snubbing a lot of people in the process by removing the section outright instead of looking for an alternative solution.
I think they have lost some loyal users. However, they don't care about any individual, no matter their loyalty. It's ALL about the bottom line.
Their alternative solutions never work in the first place. Their swearing filter was broken and the chat thread 'site' died nearly as quickly as it went up. They should just kill off the entire Off-topic subforum and open a thread where people can post alternative sites that are far better suited to people's interest than this site.
I had two ideas on how change the format of the section if you go back to the first page of this thread, one to change the format of PPNS entirely and also an idea to introduce a mute function that would allow the section to be community-moderated to an extent.
The forums should be able to allow everyone to actively engage in conversation that they find appealing; so far, it seems that the moderators haven't put much thoughts into how to improve the PPNS section as just to fix it. There's a difference there; improving requires a community effort, and leads to core changes. They were trying to fix the PPNS section, which seems like they were just putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. I think that having the moderators working with its users, rather than hovering over them and raining rules down like they tried to do with swearing filters and tighter grips on moderation, would create a better forum experience for everyone.
It was a thread for chatting. Eventually it got shut down because it was too active. Same reason they banned swearing and shut down PPNS. If something is too popular and not Minecraft-related, it gets shut down. Honestly, they should just go the whole way and kill off Off-topic.
That isn't nearly the reason and you know it.
Chat thread was locked partially because it was too active, but mostly because there was near constant rule breaking that lead to entire pages being removed because people kept quoting the rule breaking post, then people complained about pages going missing. Then people kept complaining about the moderation. I used to visit the chat thread, then I very suddenly stopped. Care to guess why? It wasn't because I hated chatting, it was because nearly every time I went there someone what saying how moderation sucks, or how we were too strict, or how we were wrong for banning a regular for breaking rules constantly. That's why the chat thread went.
As for swearing and PPNS, they're both gone for the same reason. To keep the forum family friendly. The subject matter in PPNS was not always family friendly (as stated previously, cannibalism thread) and on top of that, there were many thinly veiled insults that were posted, by regulars and not so regulars, because it's a "heated subject" and "more mature" and that somehow excuses insulting others on a site geared towards a game that attracts young children. Neither were because "it's too popular". PPNS wasn't even popular. It was the favorite section of a few people, but far from popular since posts would go hours without replies and seldom got pushed off the front page while conversation was still happening.
I think they have lost some loyal users. However, they don't care about any individual, no matter their loyalty. It's ALL about the bottom line.
It's not that we don't care about any individual, but we do have to look at the bottom line. What's more important, your happiness or the happiness of 100 others using this site? You aren't so important that you aren't replaceable by another person, and if a section directly opposes the PG-13 rating we're keeping on the rest of the site, why does it need to stay? Because you like it?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
That isn't nearly the reason and you know it.
Chat thread was locked partially because it was too active, but mostly because there was near constant rule breaking that lead to entire pages being removed because people kept quoting the rule breaking post, then people complained about pages going missing. Then people kept complaining about the moderation. I used to visit the chat thread, then I very suddenly stopped. Care to guess why? It wasn't because I hated chatting, it was because nearly every time I went there someone what saying how moderation sucks, or how we were too strict, or how we were wrong for banning a regular for breaking rules constantly. That's why the chat thread went.
As for swearing and PPNS, they're both gone for the same reason. To keep the forum family friendly. The subject matter in PPNS was not always family friendly (as stated previously, cannibalism thread) and on top of that, there were many thinly veiled insults that were posted, by regulars and not so regulars, because it's a "heated subject" and "more mature" and that somehow excuses insulting others on a site geared towards a game that attracts young children. Neither were because "it's too popular". PPNS wasn't even popular. It was the favorite section of a few people, but far from popular since posts would go hours without replies and seldom got pushed off the front page while conversation was still happening.
No, it can't and doesn't.
Don't spread lies.
It's not that we don't care about any individual, but we do have to look at the bottom line. What's more important, your happiness or the happiness of 100 others using this site? You aren't so important that you aren't replaceable by another person, and if a section directly opposes the PG-13 rating we're keeping on the rest of the site, why does it need to stay? Because you like it?
It wasn't violating the PG-13 limit. It was politics, religion and philosophy. That's not going to kill anyone. Nobody will break out in hives.
It wasn't violating the PG-13 limit. It was politics, religion and philosophy. That's not going to kill anyone. Nobody will break out in hives.
Would you participate in cannibalism is not PG-13. Of course it isn't going to kill someone or break out in hives, but it didn't follow the rest of the forums standards on posting, along with the "heated debates" that went overboard more commonly on that section that in others, even though it was a smaller and lesser used section.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
As for swearing and PPNS, they're both gone for the same reason. To keep the forum family friendly. The subject matter in PPNS was not always family friendly (as stated previously, cannibalism thread) and on top of that, there were many thinly veiled insults that were posted, by regulars and not so regulars, because it's a "heated subject" and "more mature" and that somehow excuses insulting others on a site geared towards a game that attracts young children. Neither were because "it's too popular". PPNS wasn't even popular. It was the favorite section of a few people, but far from popular since posts would go hours without replies and seldom got pushed off the front page while conversation was still happening.
Again, the purpose of a forum is to allow all its users to engage in conversation that they find appealing. You can't use majority rule to justify ostracizing a group of people who both enjoy Minecraft and coherent discussion. Unruly people are in every topic here on the forum, and in other forums. I don't view that as a valid excuse to take the entire PPNS section away without causing sweeping changes in any of the other forum sections as well.
Also, it seems as though the cannibalism example is the only one you have. I can guarantee you that there were outrageous threads started in other sections of the forum as well, which were more than likely immediately shut down. Just because a few clowns decide to start a thread on something unappealing, or frankly, disgusting, that's not enough reason to take a whole section away without any attempt to improve the section from the inside.
It's not that we don't care about any individual, but we do have to look at the bottom line. What's more important, your happiness or the happiness of 100 others using this site? You aren't so important that you aren't replaceable by another person, and if a section directly opposes the PG-13 rating we're keeping on the rest of the site, why does it need to stay? Because you like it?
If that's the way you value other members of the forum, particularly as a former moderator, I'm a little disappointed.
Would you participate in cannibalism is not PG-13. Of course it isn't going to kill someone or break out in hives, but it didn't follow the rest of the forums standards on posting, along with the "heated debates" that went overboard more commonly on that section that in others, even though it was a smaller and lesser used section.
That's not very inappropriate. Considering the violence and gore that can be found in PG-13 movies and such, the concept of cannibalism, although it might be a bit colorful, is not that far off.
Again, the purpose of a forum is to allow all its users to engage in conversation that they find appealing. You can't use majority rule to justify ostracizing a group of people who both enjoy Minecraft and coherent discussion. Unruly people are in every topic here on the forum, and in other forums. I don't view that as a valid excuse to take the entire PPNS section away without causing sweeping changes in any of the other forum sections as well.
If that's the way you value other members of the forum, particularly as a former moderator, then I want my $29.99 back.
1) The purpose of a forum is to allow discussion that the owner of the forum feels relevant to have. If a subject is unnecessary and causing issues, the forum owner has every right to remove it.
2) I was an admin and my opinion has not changed since then. Why are you so important that rules should be made around what you like rather than what 100 people would like? Especially for a section that isn't the primary focus. I'll even expand on how I value specific people. Every moderator, admin, and curse employee is not so valuable that they cannot be replaced, and every regular eventually leaves and gets replaced by a new regular. It's happened over and over and over again, and I could probably list a dozen people that existed back when I started using this forum that have not existed in a long time.
It isn't that I don't value individual users, it's just that I don't value individual users more that the group as a whole.
Edit:
Also, it seems as though the cannibalism example is the only one you have. I can guarantee you that there were outrageous threads started in other sections of the forum as well, which were more than likely immediately shut down. Just because a few clowns decide to start a thread on something unappealing, or frankly, disgusting, that's not enough reason to take a whole section away without any attempt to improve the section from the inside.
It's the only one I have off the top of my head that I didn't have to return to the section to look for, and since I'm not making official responses, nor do I have the ability to look at deleted posts or threads, it's what I'm using as an example not as an exclusive reason.
1) The purpose of a forum is to allow discussion that the owner of the forum feels relevant to have. If a subject is unnecessary and causing issues, the forum owner has every right to remove it.
2) I was an admin and my opinion has not changed since then. Why are you so important that rules should be made around what you like rather than what 100 people would like? Especially for a section that isn't the primary focus. I'll even expand on how I value specific people. Every moderator, admin, and curse employee is not so valuable that they cannot be replaced, and every regular eventually leaves and gets replaced by a new regular. It's happened over and over and over again, and I could probably list a dozen people that existed back when I started using this forum that have not existed in a long time.
It isn't that I don't value individual users, it's just that I don't value individual users more that the group as a whole.
Is it remotely possible that PPNS could have been left open, and that some other change could have been made? Say, at least give everyone a warning that it would have to be closed if certain goals were not met?
Is it remotely possible that PPNS could have been left open, and that some other change could have been made? Say, at least give everyone a warning that it would have to be closed if certain goals were not met?
Technically, it is possible to have done that, but that isn't the decision they went with. The reason I can only guess at, but I'd guess it was either because in the past there have been topics about issues with that section, and problems with people insulting or specific posts that aren't really child friendly are brought up, but nothing ever really changed or Meta expected a "mini-revolt" if he made a warning like that.
Technically, it is possible to have done that, but that isn't the decision they went with. The reason I can only guess at, but I'd guess it was either because in the past there have been topics about issues with that section, and problems with people insulting or specific posts that aren't really child friendly are brought up, but nothing ever really changed or Meta expected a "mini-revolt" if he made a warning like that.
Well he didn't really give us a chance. Most users (at least I didn't) did not know that there was an issue. There was no way for us to do better if we didn't know that there was a problem to begin with. The saying "The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one," really applies here.
I also question the utility of closing an entire section when the problem seems to be individual users or threads. Hire a moderator (it's not like they cost the forum anything) and close the threads that aren't deemed child-friendly enough for MCF. It's literally that simple.
I also question the utility of closing an entire section when the problem seems to be individual users or threads. Hire a moderator (it's not like they cost the forum anything) and close the threads that aren't deemed child-friendly enough for MCF. It's literally that simple.
That pretty much sums up what I thought about it. If they really didn't want to moderate PPNS themselves, I'm pretty sure there where many serious regulars (me included) that would have volunteered to moderate the section according to the rules they wanted to enforce there.
I guess the best course of action at this point would be to have a proverbial sit-down with citricsquid and the rest of the moderation staff to see what the major concerns are and see how we, as ordinary members, can contribute to keeping a fully-functioning PPNS section that would continue to be engaging yet to the moderators' standards of civility and forum rules.
I'd be completely in favor of community-moderating; I think it'll help solve the problem from the inside and take a huge load off the moderation staff's shoulders.
Honestly, I do not understand how the content of PPNS would have created a 'non-friendly' environment. Have you been on Youtube lately? Even with the safest searches and parental controls, it does not take very long to find age-inappropriate material just by clicking videos of similar relevance.
The people who ruined PPNS probably were not the educated core that made the discussions enlightening. Some people's opinions may have seemed a bit extreme, but there honestly was very little slander or bigotry.
What was nice about PPNS is that it brought people together with different views, but shared the common interest of video games/Minecraft simply by default. Despite what other people have posted about opinions not changing, I would like to personally disagree. I often times felt my opinion's shift a little bit through discussion and education about various ideas. More so, at the end of the day; I think 90% of the people who used that section agree WAAAAY more than they ever disagreed about anything.
I really want to thank other users like CosmicSpore, Emerald9Creeper, and Metadigital for keeping discussions interesting and always finding counter logic to my pragmatism.
I guess the best course of action at this point would be to have a proverbial sit-down with citricsquid and the rest of the moderation staff to see what the major concerns are and see how we, as ordinary members, can contribute to keeping a fully-functioning PPNS section that would continue to be engaging yet to the moderators' standards of civility and forum rules.
They don't want that. They just want to take the easiest route possible out (similar to the profanity rule debacle; rather than implementing many of the user suggestions, such as an optional filter, taking the easiest route and just banning it directly without any rhyme or reason was easier) and if that involves alienating some of their userbase, so be it.
Because most of PPNS holds atheist and left-wing beliefs, that's a pretty easy conclusion to draw.
I know that is the reason why; however, there was always a great discussion as the best course of action to take as we venture into the future. Which just goes to show how smart the individuals in the discussions were.
Even you as a theist, I would say probably had nearly the same political ideas on what we can do NOW to improve our current world more than we would disagree.
There were "flamewars," sure, but there were also several genuinely interesting and worthwhile discussions there. Deciding to close down the entire section without any prior warning was too drastic.
I'm thankful, at least, that we're allowed to discuss alternatives. I've sent out quite a few PM's to people who were seeking a new home, and I'd say roughly a dozen have already jumped ship to a site more oriented towards their interests.
Hey, guys. Quote me if you want me to respond. Otherwise I'll have no idea what the hell you want with me.
Friend Code: 1263-6258-8121 (Poison)
Friend Safaris: Poison: Swalot, Whirlipede, Seviper.
^ That. The moderators who were pushing for the closure of PPNS are trying to make this forum more focused on the game and thus geared to the game's largest audience: early teenagers.
While I respect what they're trying to do, I can't help but think that they ended up snubbing a lot of people in the process by removing the section outright instead of looking for an alternative solution.
I think they have lost some loyal users. However, they don't care about any individual, no matter their loyalty. It's ALL about the bottom line.
I had two ideas on how change the format of the section if you go back to the first page of this thread, one to change the format of PPNS entirely and also an idea to introduce a mute function that would allow the section to be community-moderated to an extent.
The forums should be able to allow everyone to actively engage in conversation that they find appealing; so far, it seems that the moderators haven't put much thoughts into how to improve the PPNS section as just to fix it. There's a difference there; improving requires a community effort, and leads to core changes. They were trying to fix the PPNS section, which seems like they were just putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. I think that having the moderators working with its users, rather than hovering over them and raining rules down like they tried to do with swearing filters and tighter grips on moderation, would create a better forum experience for everyone.
To some extent, yes, but not nearly as common.
That isn't nearly the reason and you know it.
Chat thread was locked partially because it was too active, but mostly because there was near constant rule breaking that lead to entire pages being removed because people kept quoting the rule breaking post, then people complained about pages going missing. Then people kept complaining about the moderation. I used to visit the chat thread, then I very suddenly stopped. Care to guess why? It wasn't because I hated chatting, it was because nearly every time I went there someone what saying how moderation sucks, or how we were too strict, or how we were wrong for banning a regular for breaking rules constantly. That's why the chat thread went.
As for swearing and PPNS, they're both gone for the same reason. To keep the forum family friendly. The subject matter in PPNS was not always family friendly (as stated previously, cannibalism thread) and on top of that, there were many thinly veiled insults that were posted, by regulars and not so regulars, because it's a "heated subject" and "more mature" and that somehow excuses insulting others on a site geared towards a game that attracts young children. Neither were because "it's too popular". PPNS wasn't even popular. It was the favorite section of a few people, but far from popular since posts would go hours without replies and seldom got pushed off the front page while conversation was still happening.
No, it can't and doesn't.
Don't spread lies.
It's not that we don't care about any individual, but we do have to look at the bottom line. What's more important, your happiness or the happiness of 100 others using this site? You aren't so important that you aren't replaceable by another person, and if a section directly opposes the PG-13 rating we're keeping on the rest of the site, why does it need to stay? Because you like it?
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
It wasn't violating the PG-13 limit. It was politics, religion and philosophy. That's not going to kill anyone. Nobody will break out in hives.
Would you participate in cannibalism is not PG-13. Of course it isn't going to kill someone or break out in hives, but it didn't follow the rest of the forums standards on posting, along with the "heated debates" that went overboard more commonly on that section that in others, even though it was a smaller and lesser used section.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Again, the purpose of a forum is to allow all its users to engage in conversation that they find appealing. You can't use majority rule to justify ostracizing a group of people who both enjoy Minecraft and coherent discussion. Unruly people are in every topic here on the forum, and in other forums. I don't view that as a valid excuse to take the entire PPNS section away without causing sweeping changes in any of the other forum sections as well.
Also, it seems as though the cannibalism example is the only one you have. I can guarantee you that there were outrageous threads started in other sections of the forum as well, which were more than likely immediately shut down. Just because a few clowns decide to start a thread on something unappealing, or frankly, disgusting, that's not enough reason to take a whole section away without any attempt to improve the section from the inside.
If that's the way you value other members of the forum, particularly as a former moderator, I'm a little disappointed.
That's not very inappropriate. Considering the violence and gore that can be found in PG-13 movies and such, the concept of cannibalism, although it might be a bit colorful, is not that far off.
1) The purpose of a forum is to allow discussion that the owner of the forum feels relevant to have. If a subject is unnecessary and causing issues, the forum owner has every right to remove it.
2) I was an admin and my opinion has not changed since then. Why are you so important that rules should be made around what you like rather than what 100 people would like? Especially for a section that isn't the primary focus. I'll even expand on how I value specific people. Every moderator, admin, and curse employee is not so valuable that they cannot be replaced, and every regular eventually leaves and gets replaced by a new regular. It's happened over and over and over again, and I could probably list a dozen people that existed back when I started using this forum that have not existed in a long time.
It isn't that I don't value individual users, it's just that I don't value individual users more that the group as a whole.
Edit:
It's the only one I have off the top of my head that I didn't have to return to the section to look for, and since I'm not making official responses, nor do I have the ability to look at deleted posts or threads, it's what I'm using as an example not as an exclusive reason.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Is it remotely possible that PPNS could have been left open, and that some other change could have been made? Say, at least give everyone a warning that it would have to be closed if certain goals were not met?
Technically, it is possible to have done that, but that isn't the decision they went with. The reason I can only guess at, but I'd guess it was either because in the past there have been topics about issues with that section, and problems with people insulting or specific posts that aren't really child friendly are brought up, but nothing ever really changed or Meta expected a "mini-revolt" if he made a warning like that.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Well he didn't really give us a chance. Most users (at least I didn't) did not know that there was an issue. There was no way for us to do better if we didn't know that there was a problem to begin with. The saying "The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one," really applies here.
That pretty much sums up what I thought about it. If they really didn't want to moderate PPNS themselves, I'm pretty sure there where many serious regulars (me included) that would have volunteered to moderate the section according to the rules they wanted to enforce there.
I'd be completely in favor of community-moderating; I think it'll help solve the problem from the inside and take a huge load off the moderation staff's shoulders.
Honestly, I do not understand how the content of PPNS would have created a 'non-friendly' environment. Have you been on Youtube lately? Even with the safest searches and parental controls, it does not take very long to find age-inappropriate material just by clicking videos of similar relevance.
The people who ruined PPNS probably were not the educated core that made the discussions enlightening. Some people's opinions may have seemed a bit extreme, but there honestly was very little slander or bigotry.
What was nice about PPNS is that it brought people together with different views, but shared the common interest of video games/Minecraft simply by default. Despite what other people have posted about opinions not changing, I would like to personally disagree. I often times felt my opinion's shift a little bit through discussion and education about various ideas. More so, at the end of the day; I think 90% of the people who used that section agree WAAAAY more than they ever disagreed about anything.
I really want to thank other users like CosmicSpore, Emerald9Creeper, and Metadigital for keeping discussions interesting and always finding counter logic to my pragmatism.
They don't want that. They just want to take the easiest route possible out (similar to the profanity rule debacle; rather than implementing many of the user suggestions, such as an optional filter, taking the easiest route and just banning it directly without any rhyme or reason was easier) and if that involves alienating some of their userbase, so be it.
Because most of PPNS holds atheist and left-wing beliefs, that's a pretty easy conclusion to draw.
I know that is the reason why; however, there was always a great discussion as the best course of action to take as we venture into the future. Which just goes to show how smart the individuals in the discussions were.
Even you as a theist, I would say probably had nearly the same political ideas on what we can do NOW to improve our current world more than we would disagree.
Please direct me to one. I'd appreciate it.
Might you send me there too?
Hey, guys. Quote me if you want me to respond. Otherwise I'll have no idea what the hell you want with me.
Friend Code: 1263-6258-8121 (Poison)
Friend Safaris: Poison: Swalot, Whirlipede, Seviper.