The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
1/13/2013
Posts:
62
Member Details
What happens when the big donators (some of which are rich people) try to sue for a refund over the donation perks that no longer work? Mojang would lose a lot of money on lawyers at the very least.
at the very least ever server owner is and who sells anything to do with minecraft server wise and if that owner owns a mojang account for minecraft
then they technicly can be sued for all the money spent back due to it being against the elua all a person would be able to do is say hey there breaking law breaching the elua , ive been scammed i want a refund.
this could happen right now all people who do chargebacks would not be able to have any legal action taken against them
Its like blizzard WOW for instance buy 1000s of dollars worth of gold do a chargeback what can the china farmers do there breaching a tos and elua for selling gold items and such just most people dont know this so they get scammed by gold farmers all the time
at the very least ever server owner is and who sells anything to do with minecraft server wise and if that owner owns a mojang account for minecraft
then they technicly can be sued for all the money spent back due to it being against the elua all a person would be able to do is say hey there breaking law breaching the elua , ive been scammed i want a refund.
this could happen right now all people who do chargebacks would not be able to have any legal action taken against them
Its like blizzard WOW for instance buy 1000s of dollars worth of gold do a chargeback what can the china farmers do there breaching a tos and elua for selling gold items and such just most people dont know this so they get scammed by gold farmers all the time
I am confused. How does wild theories on how "the law" (one would imagine somewhat determinate on whatever the local laws the person(s) happen to be in) and/or possible Swedish laws (Mojang's location)) have anything actually to do with the reality of the situation?
There is nothing new about the Eula, only that they might be actually enforcing it against those who are massively abusing it. The most hoopla I have been seeing (youtube videos & petitions) are from those with a vested interest in keeping things the way they are so as to continue to fleece their sheep.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
1/13/2013
Posts:
62
Member Details
what i ment to say is that if ever person who puchased a package from a server owner did a chargback for say said minecraft items they way Eula is worded they have no leg to stand on , people do this all time to gold farmers in wow buy gold chargeback cant do nothing about it.
i hope it dosent happen and im not talking about mojang useing law im talking about server owners for instance, its like woodycraft for instance he has a youtube video where he spouts he will get some kid put in jail for a charge back maybe get him raped and what not when really he has no leg to stand on at all and tbh i think that video is what got marc looking at his store and caused this whole mess in first place.
The recent decisions made by Mojang are destructive towards servers and need to be reversed!
Make a difference: http://www.change.org/petitions/mojang-do-not-change-the-eula
---
No server deserves to be shut down. Most suffer as it is, and with this they will hurt even more. Dedicated players and staff spend hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of hours on a server.
*sigh* Trombonist: THEY HAVEN'T MADE ANY.
Anywho, I think we're missing the point. This was brought on by the GREEDY people. If we will all stop supporting the GREEDY people, then they will stop being GREEDY.
There ought to be a community outing place, for excessively expensive purchases. I mean, it's a bit much for $10K purchases...And when you see that, you go and out that server, with screenshots and a link, to a central location, at which point that gets reviewed and attributed to the right server. And then people see that and get angry. And then they don't join. And then people make sense again.
Also, someone on reddit actually had a good idea: Mojang recruits volunteers. They look for abuses of donating/PayToWin. For their time, they get a cape or something. (Perhaps a few capes, depending on time put in.) The servers get put on a blacklist. (Perhaps, the blacklist gets linked to MCForums/PMC/etc., with a BLACKLISTED tag on the front. I dunno. I think this might work.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Weird Things Mods Say When Booting
[Client thread/INFO] [TConstruct]: Natura, what are we going to do tomorrow night?
[Client thread/INFO] [Natura]: TConstruct, we're going to take over the world!
[Client thread/INFO] [inpure|core]: Beating Minecraft's resource loading system with a shovel. Please stand by...
[Client thread/INFO] [MagicBees]: Replacing stupid-block with 'Here, have some delicious textures' ItemBlock. This is 100% normal.
Look, I get why servers WANT votes, and I don't think voting is bad in and of itself. It's the incentives that bug me. The 'vote if you want to have a hope of keeping up with donors' type stuff. My problem with it is that the rankings then stop showing which server people think is 'better' and just shows whichever one gives out the best voting reward. This reward system doesn't really breach the EULA- there's no exchange of money involved.
I just think it's a really unfair method of advertising.
In order for Minecraft to run on IOS, Windows, Linux, Minecraft needs to use code created by the developers of those operating systems to run functionally. Java is the programming language used to develop the game. Java is owned by Oracle. Oracle lets developers use their language and sell what ever they make with it. You are not allowed to sell the language it self as that is selling Oracles property.
MineCraft is able to work on so many platforms because of its graphics library. It uses OpenGL. In order for OpenGL to work on a computer, the developers of the hardware and software need to program in special command line instructions. Microsoft does this for support up to OpenGL 1.1 or something, where was independent graphics card developers have support up to the most recent version.
Apple is in charge of their own hardware and so they created the software for their support of OpenGL. Linux is up in the air as how it works. Probably similar to the Microsoft implemented it.
If Minecraft decided to use DirectX (OpenGL's Only competitor), then the game would only run on Windows machines. Why is this? Because Microsoft wrote DirectX and they only want it to run on their machines.
Your only other argument is "I don't have enough money, nor the resources to start a company, but I'm going to do it anyway because I want to". If you want to start a server you need the resources to do so.
If you purchase a server then you need to make the money in order to keep it up. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't make a server. Simple as that.
You are not allowed to sell another companies property in order to fund something.
People who play minecraft like to believe everybody should create a server. That is not the case, if you do not have the ability to make a server, you should perhaps instead join one that can.
The server I play on is able to stay up not by pestering it's members to pay in order to gain features that they have the right to, but because the owners have actual jobs. The person paying for the server wants the server to be up so they willingly give their money to keep it up. If your server is really fun, and its member actively want to play on it, they will donate, they don't need bribes.
And then there's reality in which your opinion isn't the only one and your book of self righteous ramblings doesn't constitute objective fact.
I've been playing Minecraft on a few servers since the beginning.
I've never seen a server that monetizes services in-game, so I couldn't care less about this issue, and I don't get why people are getting so upset.
There are two issues at play here. One lies at the feet of Mojang, and the other at the feet of these ridiculous servers.
Firstly, Mojang created a problem. Their game is essentially a platform now, an ecosystem. Mojang profits from this ecosystem. Every server, every mod, every skin, every app, every related website, or youtube video directly, or indirectly contributes to Mojang's profit. Minecraft has moved beyond a simple game and has evolved into an animal with a life of its own, the community is its life blood. Ironically, Mojang refuses to acknowledge the people who own the platform now, the modding community, the building community, the server community, etc. These people are putting in real time, real dollars, real work. Yet the EULA states they cannot be paid for this work.
To me, the real analogue to this situation would be if Microsoft or Apple refused to allow anyone to be paid to write software for their respective platforms. Sorry developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, you aren't going to be paid for your work. In fact, the only way we will sanction payment is through advertising, which means that people, who are not you, can make stupid videos of your work and make money. In fact, we thought about setting up a central "store" where people can find your work, but you won't be paid if anyone downloads it from there. Cue quotes about "biting the hand" and "cutting off the nose" etc.
I don't know too much about the average Minecraft modder out there, but I would suspect this particular issue garners ill will. Until it changes, there will continue to be problems, which leads us to the second issue.
Number two. The mandate that all community created content must be freely distributed has created a broken market. The content creators cannot be paid directly for their work, so alternate avenues must be found. Surely, these are creative people, so they are finding them. Interestingly Mojang has blessed the youtubers with the right to profit. This has made it possible for video makers to profit on the work of content creators, with no obligation to share that profit.
How is this any different from a server admin charging $5 for a diamond pickaxe?
Therein lies the issue at hand. These servers are making money in the same way that youtubers make money from content creators. They are both wrong. So should we really be surprised about this?
From a utopian viewpoint, I can understand Mojang's desire to keep everything free, but reality intrudes pretty quickly. Mojang charges people for Minecraft after all. If this were an open source game things would be different. As it is, the game is no different from an operating system, an operating system that actually provides no incentive whatsoever to its own developers.
Open up the store Mojang, launch the API, allow modders to be paid for their work directly, and all of this goes away.
Perhaps Mojang should create a standard API that would allow parents of users to set restrictions on money spent. There should also be a Terms of Service disclaimer that must be accepted before entering a server that accepts payments (that way, people will know and accept the risks).
See, they're not making any changes. The EULA is essentially the same, but in the past, Mojang has been lenient with it. All that they're doing now is enforcing the EULA. Selling any part of the game, original or modified, has been illegal since they've had the EULA. They just haven't enforced it very strongly. You can't get in game items for real currency, but you can get things that aren't part of the game, such as ranks, titles, or you can give money for the sake of charity. Really, it's not technically donating if you get the perks; it's just buying the perks because the definition of donating is to give without getting in return, so you're only technically "donating" if you pay for the sake of charity, but it would be legal to buy the titles, tags, ranks, etc. that are legal. "It also includes modified versions of a Game, part of it or anything else we‘ve made." This quote is directly from the EULA, so you can't sell "Ghast Bows" or "Special Spawn Eggs" or whatever. In fact, I know a survival server where you must donate to use water :/ (it is a good server, though). Basically what I'm saying is that almost all servers have been illegal since they've had "donating".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Live life as happily as you can and ensure that both you and everyone that you encounter enjoy all and have a positive outlook. It's not like we have any other reason for being here...
My two cents is that it's about time they made changes to the EULA, but they are making the wrong changes (Or at least they are not making all the changes they need to be making). By what has been said, their changes are going to cripple almost all big servers out there. They are doing the right thing, but doing it in the wrong way.
That's the gist of my opinion. I'm going into more detail now if you want to skip the rest and call me a moron without knowing my reasoning.
Now some hot head is going to be mad that I'm semi for the change (Or a lot of you) but hear me out. Modders not using open source is one thing (And will not be discussed here), but taking real money away is serious. I understand that a few bad apples are ruining the bunch, but many servers are almost their own company. They sell packages and such so they can maintain the server, make improvements, and even employ people full time. There are real jobs out there to moderate and maintain Minecraft servers. These EULA changes will destroy those jobs.
That said, the current state of affairs are making it look like a crippling change. But simply foregoing those changes is almost as bad. Some servers allowing for GOD MODE to be bought for $10 000 USD must be shut down. They are preying on 10 year olds with their parents credit cards. Something like this can destroy a family financially and is putting money into the hands of people who really don't deserve it. The same goes for payments to be unbanned, getting uber kits, or other unfair advantages.
Now, what the hell can we do to fix this? I can't think of anything myself that's not as grey line as the rest of the EULA. Using an easy 'If we think what your doing is bad we will shut your down' would fail miserably as if it went to court there would be any number of loop holes for the server owner to use. Anything left or right of that would be too strict or too loose and we would get a bigger problem or nothing would change.
I love the guy's down at Mojang. They are always trying to put power in the hands of the players to build the world they want, but now we have come to a critical cross road. It must be chosen to become a police state or continue on our road to anarchy. Nether are good options but one has to be taken. If I were Mojang I would make the change they have described. Though I would hate to make it.
This is not an easy fix but something has to be done. I'm sorry that I have no answer to the "what should we do?" question that's on everyone's mind, but hopefully we can be a little more diplomatic.
What I don't understand is WHY Mojang was so lax in enforcing the EULA. Sure, Notch and the other guys you hear about are all pretty relaxed folks, but they can't afford to act like that when it comes to managing a multi-million dollar company.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you say "plz" because it is shorter than "please", I will say no because it is shorter than yes.
I ran a server for a long time, because i had a bunch of friends who played. Having 8-16 friends on at a time, made it managable to keep basic contents on the server (plugins for EXTRA content). However, as minecraft development sped up, as well as the popularity, my server slowly began to run up to 250 people at any given time. Up until that point, I did not have any 'donation schemes', and i was just running a server out of my own pocket... once i upgraded to a machine that could handle the player load, i also implemented a donation scheme for NON-MOJANG features (essentially, features that were added through plugins that i had installed, or that i had developed on my own).
I'll admit, i overpriced them initially (not to the scale of $1000 tho....), and as such, noone donated for anything. I lowered the donation scale, and people began to donate. After the cost of the server, i was maybe keeping 25% of any donations in the server account (as 'profit'). Along with the smaller perks, i did have larger, bundle persk, that were scaled at $150+. While not many people used this, it was used occasionally.
I can say with assurance, that without the donations that i had, i would not have been able to keep the server running for as long as I did. In the end, i didn't turn any profit. I used the funds from the profitable months, and used it to cover the months that didn't cover the expenses.
I think clarification needs to be made on what CAN and can NOT be charged for on a minecraft server... Something as simple as building rights on a server, shouldn't be paid, nor should access to chests, and other 'basic' minecraft gameplay.
Somethings, such as obsidion, lava, and other items that can be considered 'griefing' i can see why they can be 'pay to obtain'...but thats really at the discretion of the server owner and their vision for the experience there.
But a LOT of minecraft servers now, are not even the core minecraft any more... its more plugins that add EXTRA content to the server experience (protected plots, kits, locks, etc etc).
Trying to say that you want everyone to have the 'same experience' is a foolish concept. People will NEVER have the same experience. A less creative person will not build something as grand as another, just the same as someone who just wants to build, will never explore the vast reaches of the Minecraft World! This is the reason why there are so many DIFFERENT servers, with different contents, and so many millions of mods that are floating around.
The only way to give everyone the same experience, is to take away the experience worth having.
What I don't understand is WHY Mojang was so lax in enforcing the EULA. Sure, Notch and the other guys you hear about are all pretty relaxed folks, but they can't afford to act like that when it comes to managing a multi-million dollar company.
Well, that's the thing. They started out as a small company, and the people there were thinking that way. So, they were all mellow, and didn't think they needed to enforce the EULA strictly... so they didn't build the infrastructure to do so. But then they grew really fast, and now they have to deal with the problems of scale, including exploitative types.
As someone above said, they have indeed become an ecosystem, and in any ecosystem you're going to get problems with parasites and predators getting out of hand. I for one welcome the upcoming clarifications and the reining-in of the exploiters.
I would also like to mention a problem with the video, which has nothing to do with the topic itself. (I'd have put it in the comments at Youtube, but those aren't working for me -- the panel never finished loading.) That mannequin in the back is distinctly sexualized, and the effect of having it there was to have a pair of barely-covered breasts prominently displayed through the entire video. Besides being distracting, this is not friendly to female gamers, and is not the image we or Mojang want to have associated with Minecraft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I did some CraftTweaker scripts for Mystical Agriculture. They fill in a couple of small gaps in MA, and also let you make or duplicate not only vanilla plants, but the blocks, plants and wood from Quark and Biomes O'Plenty. Also spawn eggs for most vanilla mobs! The scripts are here on Github.
then they technicly can be sued for all the money spent back due to it being against the elua all a person would be able to do is say hey there breaking law breaching the elua , ive been scammed i want a refund.
this could happen right now all people who do chargebacks would not be able to have any legal action taken against them
Its like blizzard WOW for instance buy 1000s of dollars worth of gold do a chargeback what can the china farmers do there breaching a tos and elua for selling gold items and such just most people dont know this so they get scammed by gold farmers all the time
I am confused. How does wild theories on how "the law" (one would imagine somewhat determinate on whatever the local laws the person(s) happen to be in) and/or possible Swedish laws (Mojang's location)) have anything actually to do with the reality of the situation?
There is nothing new about the Eula, only that they might be actually enforcing it against those who are massively abusing it. The most hoopla I have been seeing (youtube videos & petitions) are from those with a vested interest in keeping things the way they are so as to continue to fleece their sheep.
i hope it dosent happen and im not talking about mojang useing law im talking about server owners for instance, its like woodycraft for instance he has a youtube video where he spouts he will get some kid put in jail for a charge back maybe get him raped and what not when really he has no leg to stand on at all and tbh i think that video is what got marc looking at his store and caused this whole mess in first place.
Ex HiveMC Moderator
Make a difference: http://www.change.org/petitions/mojang-do-not-change-the-eula
---
No server deserves to be shut down. Most suffer as it is, and with this they will hurt even more. Dedicated players and staff spend hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of hours on a server.
Anywho, I think we're missing the point. This was brought on by the GREEDY people. If we will all stop supporting the GREEDY people, then they will stop being GREEDY.
There ought to be a community outing place, for excessively expensive purchases. I mean, it's a bit much for $10K purchases...And when you see that, you go and out that server, with screenshots and a link, to a central location, at which point that gets reviewed and attributed to the right server. And then people see that and get angry. And then they don't join. And then people make sense again.
Also, someone on reddit actually had a good idea: Mojang recruits volunteers. They look for abuses of donating/PayToWin. For their time, they get a cape or something. (Perhaps a few capes, depending on time put in.) The servers get put on a blacklist. (Perhaps, the blacklist gets linked to MCForums/PMC/etc., with a BLACKLISTED tag on the front. I dunno. I think this might work.)
[Client thread/INFO] [Natura]: TConstruct, we're going to take over the world!
Look, I get why servers WANT votes, and I don't think voting is bad in and of itself. It's the incentives that bug me. The 'vote if you want to have a hope of keeping up with donors' type stuff. My problem with it is that the rankings then stop showing which server people think is 'better' and just shows whichever one gives out the best voting reward. This reward system doesn't really breach the EULA- there's no exchange of money involved.
I just think it's a really unfair method of advertising.
And then there's reality in which your opinion isn't the only one and your book of self righteous ramblings doesn't constitute objective fact.
Next.
edit: Nvm, it fixed itself.
I've never seen a server that monetizes services in-game, so I couldn't care less about this issue, and I don't get why people are getting so upset.
Firstly, Mojang created a problem. Their game is essentially a platform now, an ecosystem. Mojang profits from this ecosystem. Every server, every mod, every skin, every app, every related website, or youtube video directly, or indirectly contributes to Mojang's profit. Minecraft has moved beyond a simple game and has evolved into an animal with a life of its own, the community is its life blood. Ironically, Mojang refuses to acknowledge the people who own the platform now, the modding community, the building community, the server community, etc. These people are putting in real time, real dollars, real work. Yet the EULA states they cannot be paid for this work.
To me, the real analogue to this situation would be if Microsoft or Apple refused to allow anyone to be paid to write software for their respective platforms. Sorry developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, you aren't going to be paid for your work. In fact, the only way we will sanction payment is through advertising, which means that people, who are not you, can make stupid videos of your work and make money. In fact, we thought about setting up a central "store" where people can find your work, but you won't be paid if anyone downloads it from there. Cue quotes about "biting the hand" and "cutting off the nose" etc.
I don't know too much about the average Minecraft modder out there, but I would suspect this particular issue garners ill will. Until it changes, there will continue to be problems, which leads us to the second issue.
Number two. The mandate that all community created content must be freely distributed has created a broken market. The content creators cannot be paid directly for their work, so alternate avenues must be found. Surely, these are creative people, so they are finding them. Interestingly Mojang has blessed the youtubers with the right to profit. This has made it possible for video makers to profit on the work of content creators, with no obligation to share that profit.
How is this any different from a server admin charging $5 for a diamond pickaxe?
Therein lies the issue at hand. These servers are making money in the same way that youtubers make money from content creators. They are both wrong. So should we really be surprised about this?
From a utopian viewpoint, I can understand Mojang's desire to keep everything free, but reality intrudes pretty quickly. Mojang charges people for Minecraft after all. If this were an open source game things would be different. As it is, the game is no different from an operating system, an operating system that actually provides no incentive whatsoever to its own developers.
Open up the store Mojang, launch the API, allow modders to be paid for their work directly, and all of this goes away.
That's the gist of my opinion. I'm going into more detail now if you want to skip the rest and call me a moron without knowing my reasoning.
Now some hot head is going to be mad that I'm semi for the change (Or a lot of you) but hear me out. Modders not using open source is one thing (And will not be discussed here), but taking real money away is serious. I understand that a few bad apples are ruining the bunch, but many servers are almost their own company. They sell packages and such so they can maintain the server, make improvements, and even employ people full time. There are real jobs out there to moderate and maintain Minecraft servers. These EULA changes will destroy those jobs.
That said, the current state of affairs are making it look like a crippling change. But simply foregoing those changes is almost as bad. Some servers allowing for GOD MODE to be bought for $10 000 USD must be shut down. They are preying on 10 year olds with their parents credit cards. Something like this can destroy a family financially and is putting money into the hands of people who really don't deserve it. The same goes for payments to be unbanned, getting uber kits, or other unfair advantages.
Now, what the hell can we do to fix this? I can't think of anything myself that's not as grey line as the rest of the EULA. Using an easy 'If we think what your doing is bad we will shut your down' would fail miserably as if it went to court there would be any number of loop holes for the server owner to use. Anything left or right of that would be too strict or too loose and we would get a bigger problem or nothing would change.
I love the guy's down at Mojang. They are always trying to put power in the hands of the players to build the world they want, but now we have come to a critical cross road. It must be chosen to become a police state or continue on our road to anarchy. Nether are good options but one has to be taken. If I were Mojang I would make the change they have described. Though I would hate to make it.
This is not an easy fix but something has to be done. I'm sorry that I have no answer to the "what should we do?" question that's on everyone's mind, but hopefully we can be a little more diplomatic.
I'll admit, i overpriced them initially (not to the scale of $1000 tho....), and as such, noone donated for anything. I lowered the donation scale, and people began to donate. After the cost of the server, i was maybe keeping 25% of any donations in the server account (as 'profit'). Along with the smaller perks, i did have larger, bundle persk, that were scaled at $150+. While not many people used this, it was used occasionally.
I can say with assurance, that without the donations that i had, i would not have been able to keep the server running for as long as I did. In the end, i didn't turn any profit. I used the funds from the profitable months, and used it to cover the months that didn't cover the expenses.
I think clarification needs to be made on what CAN and can NOT be charged for on a minecraft server... Something as simple as building rights on a server, shouldn't be paid, nor should access to chests, and other 'basic' minecraft gameplay.
Somethings, such as obsidion, lava, and other items that can be considered 'griefing' i can see why they can be 'pay to obtain'...but thats really at the discretion of the server owner and their vision for the experience there.
But a LOT of minecraft servers now, are not even the core minecraft any more... its more plugins that add EXTRA content to the server experience (protected plots, kits, locks, etc etc).
Trying to say that you want everyone to have the 'same experience' is a foolish concept. People will NEVER have the same experience. A less creative person will not build something as grand as another, just the same as someone who just wants to build, will never explore the vast reaches of the Minecraft World! This is the reason why there are so many DIFFERENT servers, with different contents, and so many millions of mods that are floating around.
The only way to give everyone the same experience, is to take away the experience worth having.
Well, that's the thing. They started out as a small company, and the people there were thinking that way. So, they were all mellow, and didn't think they needed to enforce the EULA strictly... so they didn't build the infrastructure to do so. But then they grew really fast, and now they have to deal with the problems of scale, including exploitative types.
As someone above said, they have indeed become an ecosystem, and in any ecosystem you're going to get problems with parasites and predators getting out of hand. I for one welcome the upcoming clarifications and the reining-in of the exploiters.
I would also like to mention a problem with the video, which has nothing to do with the topic itself. (I'd have put it in the comments at Youtube, but those aren't working for me -- the panel never finished loading.) That mannequin in the back is distinctly sexualized, and the effect of having it there was to have a pair of barely-covered breasts prominently displayed through the entire video. Besides being distracting, this is not friendly to female gamers, and is not the image we or Mojang want to have associated with Minecraft.