When I said that to you it was because you completely ignored my response which, in your own words, you would "absolutely love to hear". I responded... then you completely ignored that portion of my post (Probably because I pointed out how awful your argument was).
When you said it to me... it was because you're impatient and didn't feel like waiting for my response before you claimed yourself the victor.
two VASTLY different situations.
But once again... good try.
Actually, I hear every part of your argument. I don’t bother to address any other part of the post because myself or someone else has already addressed it. You often give some excuse that leads to something else, which then scapegoats the original argument. Despite the fact that most reasons presented often disprove what you have said.
I mean if I had to address every part of the argument already covered I would point out countless things. Like for example, when Mistify pointed out that you really know nothing about programming, which you than said, just because I’m not a butcherer doesn’t mean I can’t question if he is doing his job correctly. If my meat is being delivered in a timely order, etc. Mistify never pointed out the fact that you CAN’T judge someone if you have no knowledge in their job. You can’t really say if they are not doing there best, if you can’t assess what the best truly is. So why didn’t Mistify bother explaining this too you? You would’ve just gave some poor example of someone “supposedly” doing better which wouldn’t prove anything. This doesn’t mean you are right just because you are not willing to acknowledge your argument’s shortcoming.
Still, while you are here you can address my previous question. And I’ve already dismissed your “I’m a paying customer argument” so please don’t make like a broken record and repeat the same excuse again.
Edit: and don't give that other lousy excuse that you paid for 1.8 too, because that excuse is about as illogical as people who buy a computer and think they should get to use the internet free because of it.
If the thought of Notch considering a minecraft cash shop while the game itself is still incomplete doesn't get your blood boiling... Then his pathetic excuse about why he can't bring himself (We should be thankful he's so diligently trying to protect his cash shop for us, right?) to let the community be torn asunder because some people might not have access to virtual items for cash... This man has gotten *RICH* off of an incomplete game and is not only content to just let it putter along while the money keeps pouring in, he's trying to figure out ways to make MORE money from it.
Shame on you Notch.
Shame on you Mojang.
You suckered me in with an interesting game and all sorts of wild promises that never seem to fully materialize.
Won't happen again!
Was fun while it lasted.
Interesting post. I'll just address this bit as I think some perspective is in order.
Yes Notch got rich from this game. So how much of MY money did he get?
Enough for me to buy a fast food meal or two. Enough for me to buy a 2nd hand xbox game or a ticket to the movies.
As for after marketing extra goodies, as long as he doesn't hold a gun to my head and force me to buy something I'll be happy to let those that want his merchandise buy it.
Okay so what have I gotten in return? More hours of playing fun than I care to mention with even more updates to keep the game fresh for me.
I don't care that he's made millions from the game. They're not my millions, just $15. In fact I'm glad he's made millions because its probably what has kept him updating the game. Sure each release has bugs. Some affect me, some don't. Some are dependent of the type of computer you have. The point is they eventually get fixed and if you as a user have half a brain, you'll have backed up your previous version and will be able to revert back to it and play it while the bugs are sorted.
Of course if you didn't have the presence of mind to make a backup then i guess all you'll be able to do is come on here and denigrate Mojang for overwriting your once stable 1.73 version with an unstable 1.8.
So no, I'm not going to whine about the new update. I've been around long enough to know every new update comes with bugs and if they crash my game I simply load up the previous version and wait till its fixed. Nothing is perfect and if we had to wait until a game was bug free it we'd all be playing it from the comfort of our nursing homes.
Actually, I hear every part of your argument. I don’t bother to address any other part of the post because myself or someone else has already addressed it. You often give some excuse that leads to something else, which then scapegoats the original argument. Despite the fact that most reasons presented often disprove what you have said.
I mean if I had to address every part of the argument already covered I would point out countless things. Like for example, when Mistify pointed out that you really know nothing about programming, which you than said, just because I’m not a butcherer doesn’t mean I can’t question if he is doing his job correctly. If my meat is being delivered in a timely order, etc. Mistify never pointed out the fact that you CAN’T judge someone if you have no knowledge in their job. You can’t really say if they are not doing there best, if you can’t assess what the best truly is. So why didn’t Mistify bother explaining this too you? You would’ve just gave some poor example of someone “supposedly” doing better which wouldn’t prove anything. This doesn’t mean you are right just because you are not willing to acknowledge your argument’s shortcoming.
Still, while you are here you can address my previous question. And I’ve already dismissed your “I’m a paying customer argument” so please don’t make like a broken record and repeat the same excuse again.
Edit: and don't give that other lousy excuse that you paid for 1.8 too, because that excuse is about as illogical as people who buy a computer and think they should get to use the internet free because of it.
Important part of your post highlighted.
That's ALL that you've done.
You say, "You're dumb to think Notch should work on Minecraft 24/7 for you"
-I never said he should.
You say, "Mojang doesn't owe you anything!"
-I never said they did.
And on... And on... And on...
EDIT: Oh... and concerning the "You're not a programmer so you can't comment" thing... You can't seriously believe that, can you? Do you actual realize that I never even mentioned the programming/coding process in the OP?
Do you realize that what you've just done is divert the discussion AWAY from the intended subject? Just like you were chastising me for?
END EDIT!
And sure, while I'm here. But please tell me, in as brief a post as possible, what exactly your previous question is?
I'm not a big fan of Notch at the moment. I really wish he would just leave Fog toggle on the F key, where's it's nice and easy to reach, and the people who can't hit buttons properly can move it somewhere far away from the movement and inventory keys. I really would like to be able to play the game on fancy graphics, and in full screen. But I can't. I have to keep render distance tiny, graphics on the low setting, and the window small in order to prevent the lag from getting too bad. I know you can use F3+F now, but that's a lot of hassle for something that used to be so simple. I have to stop moving to hit the button, and then I have to hit F3 again to get all the numbers and red crap off my screen. When you're being chased by a creeper this can be life or death.
1. Notch was already wealthy when he began Minecraft, he actually said he didn't need to earn more.
2. Mojang is a company, they've asked Notch to work on a new project to earn money _FOR THE COMPANY_. The money does not go to Notch, like Minecraft originally did.
3. "Break" Idiot. LEARN TO CODE. IT IS HARD BLOODY WORK. YOU STARE AT A SCREEN FOR HOURS ON END, OFTEN DEBUGGING 1000S OF LINES OF CODE.
4. If 1.8 was not delayed...
5. 1.8 is still buggy! DERP! When has Minecraft not been buggy? Its too common for this to affect your views on the company!
6. You, sir, counter argument your own arguments. For example:
1.8 was delayed! AAARARRRARARARARRARARARRA.
1.8 is buggy! ARARARARARARARARARRARARRARARA.
7. GTFO and play COD. Not kidding.
8.You're trying to tear up trouble, incite rage, anger the major community.
You're failing, broski, failing hard.
Retort time!
1. Notchs wealth prior to, and outside of, Minecraft is completely irrelevant. Not sure why you brought that up.
2. And I thought I expressed my opinion, which was that this was a poor move on the part of Notch/Mojang and that I disagreed with it. I never actually claimed to have an understanding of the Mojang decision process (like you did just now).
3. No need to call me an idiot pal. I completely understand what the word "Break" means. I was expressing my opinion that Notch seemed to be taking too many and at inappropriate times. (That's an opinion by the way, "too many" will mean wildly different things to different people)
4. I don't understand how that statement is a counter-argument. So I'm not real sure how to reply to it.
5. My opinion is that with the amount of income Mojang has for development of Minecraft, they should be getting BETTER at releasing updates without bugs... not WORSE.
6. That's a vast oversimplification of my opinion. If you're interested in finding out why please feel free to read some of this thread.
7. Real mature. No really, nice one.
8. No, I'm really not. If I were trying to do that, I'd post something like "Notch is a homosexual, pics in side!" with photoshopped images of Notch and Hitler spooning. What I DID, however, do, was try to post a well thought out thread on the issues I have with Mojang and Notch as they relate to 1.8.
You say, "You're dumb to think Notch should work on Minecraft 24/7 for you"
-I never said he should.
You say, "Mojang doesn't owe you anything!"
-I never said they did.
And on... And on... And on...
Oh my mistake, last time I checked you were calling these people lazy for not delivering something to someone within a certain time because that is their obligation to their paying customers. Whether you meant it intentionally or not, you implied that Notch being lazy is unfair to the people who have paid for the game. You also implied (unintentionally or not) that they were being lazy and not doing a good job with this 1.8 update. I don't care if you said this directly as it was subtly implied to the general people reading the topic.
EDIT: Oh... and concerning the "You're not a programmer so you can't comment" thing... You can't seriously believe that, can you? Do you actual realize that I never even mentioned the programming/coding process in the OP?
You have full well assessed the amount of work they have done and labelled it below par, considering this work was done in the profession of a programmer you must have some level of understanding of just how hard it is to create this work? The new lighting engine for example, I can't say how much work went into it because I have no clue to the work itself. Calling someone lazy when you don't understand how much work exactly went into every piece of that update seems off? Or are taking away the accusations where you mentioned the 1.8 update itself and are solely accusing them of being lazy for personal time they have taken off?
Do you realize that what you've just done is divert the discussion AWAY from the intended subject? Just like you were chastising me for?
END EDIT!
I've previously explained why I have not assessed other subjects you have talked about. Which my excuse does not match that of which you have tagged on me.
Ah, I remember a guy like you on the XKCD forums. He burned out after a few months. Really, being this bitter isn't good for you- it'll start getting in the way of things you enjoy.
Agreed. You Confirmed the purchase, for the game as it was. You are freely given updates, with NO OBLIGATION to Update. This is YOUR choice. If you don't like the updates, THERE ARE sites that allow you to get other versions of Minecraft. You have to look for it. I can not tell you because it is illegal and against the rules.
You are not entitled to anything, regarding Minecraft, from Mojang. You pre-ordered their game which didn't even have a release date until recently (which they made clear to everyone). The only reason you get to play is because they release beta updates to you out of the kindness of their hearts. For that matter you even get development updates from the lead designer himself, telling you his progress on the game. Feel lucky for all the things you have, not bitter for the things you feel you deserve.
This is the mentality that I have too - when someone is using words like "I demand" or "I deserve" or "he owes me". HOWEVER the OP hasn't said that. He's stating what he doesn't like about the game and its progress/direction. Why do people take issue to the OP saying that he won't be 'suckered in again' (i.e. won't buy another Mojang game). Are you seriously arguing about the OP's right to NOT buy a game?? You guys are saying that the OP absolutely must buy other Mojang games?
Or, is it just that you all lack even the most basic of reading comprehension and logic skills and keep thinking that the OP is demanding something of Notch? He's not threatening to sue or asking for a refund. He's saying that he doesn't like the direction of the game and the development of it, nor the way that it almost seems to be on the backburner for Mojang. And you know what? It's fine for Mojang to do that. It's their right. But it's our right as customers to say "I don't like that and I want Minecraft to be developed more professionally and in a more timely manner (having more than one person in a team of 5 working on it would likely help)". Mojang have the right to ignore that. Customers have the right to then not purchase another Mojang game for fear that it will be neglected after a while.
Please, everyone calm down and stop with the "OMGZ YOU JUST HATE NOTCH" crap. Yes, some people are entitled douches, but the OP is not one of them. I understand that I paid for the version that I received way back when, and I tell people the same thing often when they demand something of Notch. However, just because I technically bought a previous version, it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disappointed by the progress of current versions and to then form the opinion that I don't trust Mojang to develop games anymore, thus will not buy their other games at least until a full, working version is released.
Obligations, what obligations does Notch or Mojang have to do with any of these things you are complaining about.
Okay to start, just so there isn't any confusion: Obligation Something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.
(definition from dictionary.com)
Moral of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:
It is my opinion that Notch and Mojang have a MORAL obligation to provide for Minecraft the things that they say they will provide. This includes, but is not limited to, release dates and features/additions. I've tried explaining this previously, but maybe you just didn't find it (the thread is huge) or maybe I did a poor job.
-Minecraft sales are completely based off of hype and word of mouth. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just how it is. How many Minecraft commercials/ads have you seen outside of youtube promotion?
-Information about what's coming down the pipeline (Notchs comments on the twitter, etc) is made out to be incredible and game changing.
-Minecraft is an admittedly nice idea and sales reflect this. But I would argue that a portion of those sales are made based on the "image" Notch gives of the games development via the twitter (and tumblr, or whatever those evil social networking sites are called). If someone never visited the forums here, but paid attention to Notch on these sites, he would probably have a wildly different opinion of the game than someone who frequents the forums. And as such, his decision to purchase or not purchase the game could be based on the communications made through social networking sites.
-So we can say that a portion of Minecrafts sales are made based on how Notch presents the game and its development on his social networking sites.
EDIT:
-Due to the nature of most of these comments (promised or stated as definitely to be included, but then mysteriously absent), I argue that it is a somewhat shady business practice.
END EDIT
One of the main points I was trying to make was that the communications Mojang/Notch/Whatever make are often done in an extremely casual/non-committal setting. This has become the norm to the point that random messages from Notch and crew on social networking sites have become pretty much the only source of information on Minecrafts development. I think this is an unacceptable way for a business to conduct itself.
Please take note of the fact that my opinion doesn't in any way DEMAND anything out of Mojang or Notch. Sure, I say why I think what they're doing is wrong, and even imply that a different approach would be more appropriate. But I never once demanded a single thing.
Also keep in mind that this is just one portion opinions expressed the OP.
I can see that the OP spent a long time making his argument as convincing as possible, and I applaud that. However, it is heavily based on unsupported assumptions and personal bias. I respect your right to have an opinion, but I hope you realize that writing such an personalized piece, especially one that goes against popular opinion, will result in a torrent of (admittedly justified) hateful replies. As is typical on a forum, the size of this discussion has proven to be directly proportionate to the number of times arguments are repeated, and inversely proportionate to the intelligence required to formulate them.
The OP, with some exceptions, was quite gentlemanly in his arguing. I figured it would be best to reply in the same fashion. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go clean my monocle and pour another cup of tea.
Okay to start, just so there isn't any confusion: Obligation Something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.
(definition from dictionary.com)
Moral of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:
It is my opinion that Notch and Mojang have a MORAL obligation to provide for Minecraft the things that they say they will provide. This includes, but is not limited to, release dates and features/additions. I've tried explaining this previously, but maybe you just didn't find it (the thread is huge) or maybe I did a poor job.
So you're saying they have a moral obligation to do more, but they have NEVER officially promised most of these things here. I'm just speaking of what you were technically promised. If you believe they morally owe you though the gossip, word, or plans of minecraft than that's fine and boils down to a personal opinion, but you can't hold the Company down for anything they officially stated.
Edit:
BUT I am saying since they don't owe us anything officially, we shouldn't gripe about things that they don't even have to deliver in the first place. It's like every update here is just a mechanism for sales, anti-piracy, etc. But Notch still doesn't have to do any of it. What if Notch would have just retired and never worked on Minecraft? He'd probably still be making lots of money and he wouldn't be considered lazy. Why? (rhetorical question, don't answer that)
-End edit-
-Minecraft sales are completely based off of hype and word of mouth. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just how it is. How many Minecraft commercials/ads have you seen outside of youtube promotion?
-Information about what's coming down the pipeline (Notchs comments on the twitter, etc) is made out to be incredible and game changing.
-Minecraft is an admittedly nice idea and sales reflect this. But I would argue that a portion of those sales are made based on the "image" Notch gives of the games development via the twitter (and tumblr, or whatever those evil social networking sites are called). If someone never visited the forums here, but paid attention to Notch on these sites, he would probably have a wildly different opinion of the game than someone who frequents the forums. And as such, his decision to purchase or not purchase the game could be based on the communications made through social networking sites.
-So we can say that a portion of Minecrafts sales are made based on how Notch presents the game and its development on his social networking sites.
EDIT:
-Due to the nature of most of these comments (promised or stated as definitely to be included, but then mysteriously absent), I argue that it is a somewhat shady business practice.
END EDIT
One of the main points I was trying to make was that the communications Mojang/Notch/Whatever make are often done in an extremely casual/non-committal setting. This has become the norm to the point that random messages from Notch and crew on social networking sites have become pretty much the only source of information on Minecrafts development. I think this is an unacceptable way for a business to conduct itself.
Please take note of the fact that my opinion doesn't in any way DEMAND anything out of Mojang or Notch. Sure, I say why I think what they're doing is wrong, and even imply that a different approach would be more appropriate. But I never once demanded a single thing.
Also keep in mind that this is just one portion opinions expressed the OP.
I've already spoken about that subject in the past.
A friend tells friend, and that friend tells someone else and before you know it, people are going around saying that this update will be a revolution in gaming for minecraft. So now we have people who expect too much of this update. What do they do when they are disapointed with a feature they were told would be so great?
The hate for 1.8 is because of hype about it, people judge a book by it's cover thinking that is either it's revolutionary, or going to ruin minecraft.
So I can understand you are blaming the word of 1.8 in general for this. (I could be misunderstanding this part though)
Edit: I suppose you are saying though the word of Notch is what has said those various things and not indivduals, which in that case. It'd just be a personal experience.
What a stupid thread. Minecraft was always the game of Notch and he said since the beginning if one day he is just bored of Minecraft he will stop developing it. Hes probably rich enough to never have to work again so we should just be happy with what we get cuz he could just drop the whole thing one day.
If he does drop the game, we'd probably still be getting updates as fast as if he kept developing it.
First of all, thanks for sharing your opinion in a professional way other than "this game is crap for blahblahblah"
I have seen the decrease of updates over the time I've played minecraft, it used to by every week with little fun things to try out, but now it like any other game with huge updates, which I'm slightly disappointed in.
But you have to remember you payed 10$ for a game that can be more fun than full 50$ or even 100$ games.
So if you've had fun with minecraft for aleast more than 3 hours, and there's going to be more...i say it's worth every cent.
zwan has a good point... maybe a little overboard telling it all to everyone.
i am disappointed in 1.8 after how much notch got our hopes up about it. the game is still in beta, an update is just an update, no need to have a huge party for each one.
You paid for the Game as it was. Not for the coming features.
DeadMineCraft, on 15 September 2011 - 02:37 AM, said:
Agreed. You Confirmed the purchase, for the game as it was. You are freely given updates, with NO OBLIGATION to Update. This is YOUR choice. If you don't like the updates, THERE ARE sites that allow you to get other versions of Minecraft. You have to look for it. I can not tell you because it is illegal and against the rules.
ColCabbage, on 15 September 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:
You are not entitled to anything, regarding Minecraft, from Mojang. You pre-ordered their game which didn't even have a release date until recently (which they made clear to everyone). The only reason you get to play is because they release beta updates to you out of the kindness of their hearts. For that matter you even get development updates from the lead designer himself, telling you his progress on the game. Feel lucky for all the things you have, not bitter for the things you feel you deserve.
This is the mentality that I have too - when someone is using words like "I demand" or "I deserve" or "he owes me". HOWEVER the OP hasn't said that. He's stating what he doesn't like about the game and its progress/direction. Why do people take issue to the OP saying that he won't be 'suckered in again' (i.e. won't buy another Mojang game). Are you seriously arguing about the OP's right to NOT buy a game?? You guys are saying that the OP absolutely must buy other Mojang games?
Or, is it just that you all lack even the most basic of reading comprehension and logic skills and keep thinking that the OP is demanding something of Notch? He's not threatening to sue or asking for a refund. He's saying that he doesn't like the direction of the game and the development of it, nor the way that it almost seems to be on the backburner for Mojang. And you know what? It's fine for Mojang to do that. It's their right. But it's our right as customers to say "I don't like that and I want Minecraft to be developed more professionally and in a more timely manner (having more than one person in a team of 5 working on it would likely help)". Mojang have the right to ignore that. Customers have the right to then not purchase another Mojang game for fear that it will be neglected after a while.
Please, everyone calm down and stop with the "OMGZ YOU JUST HATE NOTCH" crap. Yes, some people are entitled douches, but the OP is not one of them. I understand that I paid for the version that I received way back when, and I tell people the same thing often when they demand something of Notch. However, just because I technically bought a previous version, it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disappointed by the progress of current versions and to then form the opinion that I don't trust Mojang to develop games anymore, thus will not buy their other games at least until a full, working version is released.
Your post is the first post from someone besides OP that has made sense on this page, so I used it. Thanks man. :smile.gif:
Nevermind the title, it's irrelevant. I wanted to point out that the purchase agreement changed late last year. I bought Minecraft when it was in Alpha, and I AM entitled to patch 1.8. I'm not bitching about time release time or anything, but I did actually pay for all subsequent updates. I am ALSO entitled to the full version of Minecraft, and they have set a release date and expectations. This was only if you bought the game before December 20th. Most people don't know about this, but I would have to say at least 1/3rd of the people who bought the game bought it under this agreement.
They changed it, because it didn't make business sense or legal sense. Not to be greedy, so I would like everyone to understand. I AM NOT CALLING NOTCH GREEDY!
I am, however, calling him human. Yes, it is human to be lazy, be hypocritical, argue, obsess over being right, be OCD, have Attention span problems, and even want to make more money. These are all qualities of human nature.
What OP is trying to say is that he is worried about his investment. We were all, in-fact, promised the full game on release. It depends on how you think of a full game. I'm sure OP is a little worried that the game isn't going to be finished on the release date, which has actually been set. At this point in time (on release), notch has said he's going to quit coding Minecraft for a bit. Something to the effect of "I wan't to go play Skyrim!"
So if Mojang dumps a piece of **** on us and then says "Okay, We've filled our contracts with you lot, See ya later!" I'm sure you all will have a different stance on this opinion. It's happened before, and it will happen again. It's life. I'm not saying this is what Notch WILL do, I'm saying this is what he COULD do. NOBODY HERE KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE IS, SO DO NOT COMPLAIN THAT IT WON'T HAPPEN. Eating your own words is pretty disgusting, I'll tell you that from first hand experience.
Also, before you go spouting "BUT THEY CAN DELAY THE GAME! THEY DON'T HAVE TO RELEASE IT ON 11/11/11."
Minecon is a HUGE obligation for them. If they don't release the game on 11/11/11, they are going to have a lot of trouble on their hands, and could even get sued. They do NOT have a choice but to release the game on 11/11/11. The tickets actually state they are admission to the launch of Minecraft, does it not? Thousands of dollars in plane tickets, hotel reservations (ever booked a hotel for a convention in Vegas? Most hotels make you put down money, unless they're a shitty hotel.), and ticket sales would need to be accounted for if they just canceled the event.
Also, please re-read your posts before you post them. There's a Preview Post button for a reason. Hit it, read your post THROUGH and if you think it makes sense and doesn't sound retarded, hit the add reply button. I just finished re-reading mine and made it was readable, and I found a couple mistakes. Somehow my post is intelligible!
If it sounds retarded, hit the x in the corner of your window, and then un-plug your internet.
Even though Minecraft development seems slow and unsatisfying these days, Notch is of the opinion that he has no real obligation to help speed the progress along. Instead he chooses to enter weekend long game contests and work on his other (non-minecraft) game projects.
That isn't an opinion, he isn't under any obligation to further develop the game. he can chose to halt development indefinitely whenever he chooses, without considering or notifying the players at all.
What is an opinion however, is the sense of entitlement you feel that simply because you bought the game Notch and the rest of Mojang somehow owe you something. Newsflash. They don't.
You are nobody. You aren't important. You don't contribute to the game yourself. You don't get to dictate what Mojang does. You can whine, or rage, or beg however much you want. It isn't going to change a damn thing.
Nevermind the title, it's irrelevant. I wanted to point out that the purchase agreement changed late last year. I bought Minecraft when it was in Alpha, and I AM entitled to patch 1.8. I'm not bitching about time release time or anything, but I did actually pay for all subsequent updates. I am ALSO entitled to the full version of Minecraft, and they have set a release date and expectations. This was only if you bought the game before December 20th. Most people don't know about this, but I would have to say at least 1/3rd of the people who bought the game bought it under this agreement.
Whether you are entitled to the full game or not is irrelevant. You don't get to dictate what is or is not the full game. You may have paid for subsequent updates, but not a specific number of updates. Nor did you pay for specific features in those updates. What I wrote above applies to you as well. Get over it.
Whether you are entitled to the full game or not is irrelevant. You don't get to dictate what is or is not the full game. You may have paid for subsequent updates, but not a specific number of updates. Nor did you pay for specific features in those updates. What I wrote above applies to you as well. Get over it.
Actually, I bought the game based on things Notch said he was adding to the game via Twitter and the Word of Notch. So I do expect those things, AS ADVERTISED.
A verbal contract is just as good as a written, dated, and signed one. Go look up some court cases. Twitter is a hot topic in the legal world, as most judges consider promises made on twitter to be a verbal contract. Just like if you had a gardening service and told me you were going to trim my hedges for x amount of money, but then you never did. So we go to court, and I pull out my iPhone with your verbal contract on it. Then you lose your company.
Unfortunately for Notch, I (and thousands of others) have a verbal and written contract (I paid for the game) with Notch himself, and not Mojang.
IDGAF what the full version of the game is. I will not invest any more money into the company if they continue to act this way.
Actually, I hear every part of your argument. I don’t bother to address any other part of the post because myself or someone else has already addressed it. You often give some excuse that leads to something else, which then scapegoats the original argument. Despite the fact that most reasons presented often disprove what you have said.
I mean if I had to address every part of the argument already covered I would point out countless things. Like for example, when Mistify pointed out that you really know nothing about programming, which you than said, just because I’m not a butcherer doesn’t mean I can’t question if he is doing his job correctly. If my meat is being delivered in a timely order, etc. Mistify never pointed out the fact that you CAN’T judge someone if you have no knowledge in their job. You can’t really say if they are not doing there best, if you can’t assess what the best truly is. So why didn’t Mistify bother explaining this too you? You would’ve just gave some poor example of someone “supposedly” doing better which wouldn’t prove anything. This doesn’t mean you are right just because you are not willing to acknowledge your argument’s shortcoming.
Still, while you are here you can address my previous question. And I’ve already dismissed your “I’m a paying customer argument” so please don’t make like a broken record and repeat the same excuse again.
Edit: and don't give that other lousy excuse that you paid for 1.8 too, because that excuse is about as illogical as people who buy a computer and think they should get to use the internet free because of it.
Interesting post. I'll just address this bit as I think some perspective is in order.
Yes Notch got rich from this game. So how much of MY money did he get?
Enough for me to buy a fast food meal or two. Enough for me to buy a 2nd hand xbox game or a ticket to the movies.
As for after marketing extra goodies, as long as he doesn't hold a gun to my head and force me to buy something I'll be happy to let those that want his merchandise buy it.
Okay so what have I gotten in return? More hours of playing fun than I care to mention with even more updates to keep the game fresh for me.
I don't care that he's made millions from the game. They're not my millions, just $15. In fact I'm glad he's made millions because its probably what has kept him updating the game. Sure each release has bugs. Some affect me, some don't. Some are dependent of the type of computer you have. The point is they eventually get fixed and if you as a user have half a brain, you'll have backed up your previous version and will be able to revert back to it and play it while the bugs are sorted.
Of course if you didn't have the presence of mind to make a backup then i guess all you'll be able to do is come on here and denigrate Mojang for overwriting your once stable 1.73 version with an unstable 1.8.
So no, I'm not going to whine about the new update. I've been around long enough to know every new update comes with bugs and if they crash my game I simply load up the previous version and wait till its fixed. Nothing is perfect and if we had to wait until a game was bug free it we'd all be playing it from the comfort of our nursing homes.
Important part of your post highlighted.
That's ALL that you've done.
You say, "You're dumb to think Notch should work on Minecraft 24/7 for you"
-I never said he should.
You say, "Mojang doesn't owe you anything!"
-I never said they did.
And on... And on... And on...
EDIT: Oh... and concerning the "You're not a programmer so you can't comment" thing... You can't seriously believe that, can you? Do you actual realize that I never even mentioned the programming/coding process in the OP?
Do you realize that what you've just done is divert the discussion AWAY from the intended subject? Just like you were chastising me for?
END EDIT!
And sure, while I'm here. But please tell me, in as brief a post as possible, what exactly your previous question is?
Retort time!
1. Notchs wealth prior to, and outside of, Minecraft is completely irrelevant. Not sure why you brought that up.
2. And I thought I expressed my opinion, which was that this was a poor move on the part of Notch/Mojang and that I disagreed with it. I never actually claimed to have an understanding of the Mojang decision process (like you did just now).
3. No need to call me an idiot pal. I completely understand what the word "Break" means. I was expressing my opinion that Notch seemed to be taking too many and at inappropriate times. (That's an opinion by the way, "too many" will mean wildly different things to different people)
4. I don't understand how that statement is a counter-argument. So I'm not real sure how to reply to it.
5. My opinion is that with the amount of income Mojang has for development of Minecraft, they should be getting BETTER at releasing updates without bugs... not WORSE.
6. That's a vast oversimplification of my opinion. If you're interested in finding out why please feel free to read some of this thread.
7. Real mature. No really, nice one.
8. No, I'm really not. If I were trying to do that, I'd post something like "Notch is a homosexual, pics in side!" with photoshopped images of Notch and Hitler spooning. What I DID, however, do, was try to post a well thought out thread on the issues I have with Mojang and Notch as they relate to 1.8.
Who is it that's failing again?
Oh my mistake, last time I checked you were calling these people lazy for not delivering something to someone within a certain time because that is their obligation to their paying customers. Whether you meant it intentionally or not, you implied that Notch being lazy is unfair to the people who have paid for the game. You also implied (unintentionally or not) that they were being lazy and not doing a good job with this 1.8 update. I don't care if you said this directly as it was subtly implied to the general people reading the topic.
You have full well assessed the amount of work they have done and labelled it below par, considering this work was done in the profession of a programmer you must have some level of understanding of just how hard it is to create this work? The new lighting engine for example, I can't say how much work went into it because I have no clue to the work itself. Calling someone lazy when you don't understand how much work exactly went into every piece of that update seems off? Or are taking away the accusations where you mentioned the 1.8 update itself and are solely accusing them of being lazy for personal time they have taken off?
I've previously explained why I have not assessed other subjects you have talked about. Which my excuse does not match that of which you have tagged on me.
Obligations, what does obligations does Notch or Mojang have to do with any of these things you are complaining about.
This is the mentality that I have too - when someone is using words like "I demand" or "I deserve" or "he owes me". HOWEVER the OP hasn't said that. He's stating what he doesn't like about the game and its progress/direction. Why do people take issue to the OP saying that he won't be 'suckered in again' (i.e. won't buy another Mojang game). Are you seriously arguing about the OP's right to NOT buy a game?? You guys are saying that the OP absolutely must buy other Mojang games?
Or, is it just that you all lack even the most basic of reading comprehension and logic skills and keep thinking that the OP is demanding something of Notch? He's not threatening to sue or asking for a refund. He's saying that he doesn't like the direction of the game and the development of it, nor the way that it almost seems to be on the backburner for Mojang. And you know what? It's fine for Mojang to do that. It's their right. But it's our right as customers to say "I don't like that and I want Minecraft to be developed more professionally and in a more timely manner (having more than one person in a team of 5 working on it would likely help)". Mojang have the right to ignore that. Customers have the right to then not purchase another Mojang game for fear that it will be neglected after a while.
Please, everyone calm down and stop with the "OMGZ YOU JUST HATE NOTCH" crap. Yes, some people are entitled douches, but the OP is not one of them. I understand that I paid for the version that I received way back when, and I tell people the same thing often when they demand something of Notch. However, just because I technically bought a previous version, it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disappointed by the progress of current versions and to then form the opinion that I don't trust Mojang to develop games anymore, thus will not buy their other games at least until a full, working version is released.
Okay to start, just so there isn't any confusion:
Obligation
Something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.
(definition from dictionary.com)
Moral
of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:
It is my opinion that Notch and Mojang have a MORAL obligation to provide for Minecraft the things that they say they will provide. This includes, but is not limited to, release dates and features/additions. I've tried explaining this previously, but maybe you just didn't find it (the thread is huge) or maybe I did a poor job.
-Minecraft sales are completely based off of hype and word of mouth. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's just how it is. How many Minecraft commercials/ads have you seen outside of youtube promotion?
-Information about what's coming down the pipeline (Notchs comments on the twitter, etc) is made out to be incredible and game changing.
-Minecraft is an admittedly nice idea and sales reflect this. But I would argue that a portion of those sales are made based on the "image" Notch gives of the games development via the twitter (and tumblr, or whatever those evil social networking sites are called). If someone never visited the forums here, but paid attention to Notch on these sites, he would probably have a wildly different opinion of the game than someone who frequents the forums. And as such, his decision to purchase or not purchase the game could be based on the communications made through social networking sites.
-So we can say that a portion of Minecrafts sales are made based on how Notch presents the game and its development on his social networking sites.
EDIT:
-Due to the nature of most of these comments (promised or stated as definitely to be included, but then mysteriously absent), I argue that it is a somewhat shady business practice.
END EDIT
One of the main points I was trying to make was that the communications Mojang/Notch/Whatever make are often done in an extremely casual/non-committal setting. This has become the norm to the point that random messages from Notch and crew on social networking sites have become pretty much the only source of information on Minecrafts development. I think this is an unacceptable way for a business to conduct itself.
Please take note of the fact that my opinion doesn't in any way DEMAND anything out of Mojang or Notch. Sure, I say why I think what they're doing is wrong, and even imply that a different approach would be more appropriate. But I never once demanded a single thing.
Also keep in mind that this is just one portion opinions expressed the OP.
So you're saying they have a moral obligation to do more, but they have NEVER officially promised most of these things here. I'm just speaking of what you were technically promised. If you believe they morally owe you though the gossip, word, or plans of minecraft than that's fine and boils down to a personal opinion, but you can't hold the Company down for anything they officially stated.
Edit:
BUT I am saying since they don't owe us anything officially, we shouldn't gripe about things that they don't even have to deliver in the first place. It's like every update here is just a mechanism for sales, anti-piracy, etc. But Notch still doesn't have to do any of it. What if Notch would have just retired and never worked on Minecraft? He'd probably still be making lots of money and he wouldn't be considered lazy. Why? (rhetorical question, don't answer that)
-End edit-
I've already spoken about that subject in the past.
So I can understand you are blaming the word of 1.8 in general for this. (I could be misunderstanding this part though)
Edit: I suppose you are saying though the word of Notch is what has said those various things and not indivduals, which in that case. It'd just be a personal experience.
It's Mojang's game. They can do (or not do) anything they want with it.
If you can't stand that fact, feel free to delete minecraft from your computer and never look back.
If he does drop the game, we'd probably still be getting updates as fast as if he kept developing it.
Clearly the OP said: "OMG NOTCH IS SO GHEY AND I HATE HIM AND HE OWES ME TEH WURLD". At least, that's what I'd think if I were a moron.
I have an idea-- how about you go try to make a computer game from scratch.
Go on, we're waiting.
.....you done yet? No?
...............
.................how about now?
....What do you mean you're trying to work out the balance of the game?? And don't give me this 'I have to bug fix' crap! I want it NOW!
Not so easy, is it?
I have seen the decrease of updates over the time I've played minecraft, it used to by every week with little fun things to try out, but now it like any other game with huge updates, which I'm slightly disappointed in.
But you have to remember you payed 10$ for a game that can be more fun than full 50$ or even 100$ games.
So if you've had fun with minecraft for aleast more than 3 hours, and there's going to be more...i say it's worth every cent.
Just my opinion.
i am disappointed in 1.8 after how much notch got our hopes up about it. the game is still in beta, an update is just an update, no need to have a huge party for each one.
Your post is the first post from someone besides OP that has made sense on this page, so I used it. Thanks man. :smile.gif:
I would like to point out this article.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.250456-Minecraft-Shifting-to-Beta-With-Price-Hike
Nevermind the title, it's irrelevant. I wanted to point out that the purchase agreement changed late last year. I bought Minecraft when it was in Alpha, and I AM entitled to patch 1.8. I'm not bitching about time release time or anything, but I did actually pay for all subsequent updates. I am ALSO entitled to the full version of Minecraft, and they have set a release date and expectations. This was only if you bought the game before December 20th. Most people don't know about this, but I would have to say at least 1/3rd of the people who bought the game bought it under this agreement.
They changed it, because it didn't make business sense or legal sense. Not to be greedy, so I would like everyone to understand. I AM NOT CALLING NOTCH GREEDY!
I am, however, calling him human. Yes, it is human to be lazy, be hypocritical, argue, obsess over being right, be OCD, have Attention span problems, and even want to make more money. These are all qualities of human nature.
What OP is trying to say is that he is worried about his investment. We were all, in-fact, promised the full game on release. It depends on how you think of a full game. I'm sure OP is a little worried that the game isn't going to be finished on the release date, which has actually been set. At this point in time (on release), notch has said he's going to quit coding Minecraft for a bit. Something to the effect of "I wan't to go play Skyrim!"
So if Mojang dumps a piece of **** on us and then says "Okay, We've filled our contracts with you lot, See ya later!" I'm sure you all will have a different stance on this opinion. It's happened before, and it will happen again. It's life. I'm not saying this is what Notch WILL do, I'm saying this is what he COULD do. NOBODY HERE KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE IS, SO DO NOT COMPLAIN THAT IT WON'T HAPPEN. Eating your own words is pretty disgusting, I'll tell you that from first hand experience.
Also, before you go spouting "BUT THEY CAN DELAY THE GAME! THEY DON'T HAVE TO RELEASE IT ON 11/11/11."
Minecon is a HUGE obligation for them. If they don't release the game on 11/11/11, they are going to have a lot of trouble on their hands, and could even get sued. They do NOT have a choice but to release the game on 11/11/11. The tickets actually state they are admission to the launch of Minecraft, does it not? Thousands of dollars in plane tickets, hotel reservations (ever booked a hotel for a convention in Vegas? Most hotels make you put down money, unless they're a shitty hotel.), and ticket sales would need to be accounted for if they just canceled the event.
Also, please re-read your posts before you post them. There's a Preview Post button for a reason. Hit it, read your post THROUGH and if you think it makes sense and doesn't sound retarded, hit the add reply button. I just finished re-reading mine and made it was readable, and I found a couple mistakes. Somehow my post is intelligible!
If it sounds retarded, hit the x in the corner of your window, and then un-plug your internet.
That isn't an opinion, he isn't under any obligation to further develop the game. he can chose to halt development indefinitely whenever he chooses, without considering or notifying the players at all.
What is an opinion however, is the sense of entitlement you feel that simply because you bought the game Notch and the rest of Mojang somehow owe you something. Newsflash. They don't.
You are nobody. You aren't important. You don't contribute to the game yourself. You don't get to dictate what Mojang does. You can whine, or rage, or beg however much you want. It isn't going to change a damn thing.
Whether you are entitled to the full game or not is irrelevant. You don't get to dictate what is or is not the full game. You may have paid for subsequent updates, but not a specific number of updates. Nor did you pay for specific features in those updates. What I wrote above applies to you as well. Get over it.
Actually, I bought the game based on things Notch said he was adding to the game via Twitter and the Word of Notch. So I do expect those things, AS ADVERTISED.
A verbal contract is just as good as a written, dated, and signed one. Go look up some court cases. Twitter is a hot topic in the legal world, as most judges consider promises made on twitter to be a verbal contract. Just like if you had a gardening service and told me you were going to trim my hedges for x amount of money, but then you never did. So we go to court, and I pull out my iPhone with your verbal contract on it. Then you lose your company.
Unfortunately for Notch, I (and thousands of others) have a verbal and written contract (I paid for the game) with Notch himself, and not Mojang.
IDGAF what the full version of the game is. I will not invest any more money into the company if they continue to act this way.