I'm a bit sick and tired of the "ignore it" argument. Ignoring a bad element of a game doesn't make it not bad, nor does it make it go away. It remains part of the game. There are plenty of people that like the idea of an adventure update to the game, but don't like how this is turning out. The really awful ending is one element of contention here.
Proposing that you mod the game just emphasizes how this is a bad ending, since you have to mod the dang game to get rid of it.
If this ending isn't a troll, then it really makes me skeptical of how Minecraft is going to turn out beyond the pure sandbox elements. The combat mechanics are still weak as is the fact it has almost nothing that encourages or rewards adventure -- to say nothing of the grindy enchantment system. It's a dang shame that plenty of mods consistently outshine what Notch is doing with his own product, despite the fact he easily can spend a million or more dollars on development (which he is decidedly NOT doing).
Amen. People who use the 'don't like it don't use it' comeback need to hop off Mojang's ****. Despite the number of days left until Minecraft is considered finished, it is still Beta and things can be edited. A while back nobody wanted an ending nor a storyline. We now have achievements that's all there should be. Honestly, 1.9 is screwing up Minecraft.
Th ending was a brilliant piece of writing, in my opinion. Minecraft doesn't need an ending, but it's twice as meaningful with one.
How is the ending meaningful? What meaning does it add by saying "By the way, the plotless sandbox you were just playing with no character development was just a dream, kind of."? Explain your assertion, I have a really hard time seeing any meaning in it since the game itself doesn't have any meaning or story.
60% of 0.000000025% of total players that dislike it. So make that 0.000000015% of all players dislike the ending. They can't base a decision on that.
And those figures aren't exaggerations.
This just seems like another square sun vs circle sun argument. The ending is optional, you can skip it, and it isn't even the end. Don't like, don't read it. You are even able to change what the text says! All the ending does is add to the RPG/Linear part of Minecraft which is totally seperate from the creative part of Minecraft.
This is the direction Mojang wants to go with Minecraft. They are the final deciding factor in everything, but, they have been very nice in forcing nothing upon you.
Please note: I'm not arguing about the actually text in the credits/story. Personally, I didn't like it that much. But that's just me. I'm only making a point about having an "ending" with credits etc.
For one, sample size, for two you're using false negatives to support your position. The entire population hasn't been polled, so you can't jump in and be a presumptive voice for that portion of the population and say "Well only a statistically irrelevant number of people dislike the ending". From the numbers we have, most people that *have been polled* don't like the ending, and it's not outlandish even in the field of statistics to note a small scale trend as important or possibly relevant on the large scale. Can we say what most people who play minecraft think? No, neither for the positive or the negative. Can we make assertions based on this poll? Yeah, we can say most people who care to be a part of the community here don't like the ending.
The "optional content" concept doesn't hold water either, as the ending contradicts the precedent Mojang themselves have set up with the game. An ending contradicts a game that's mostly goofy non-sensical sandbox fun in an unrealistic universe that has no plot, no character development, no meta-theatrical allusions, and no sort of linear objective based progress. The ending isn't bad just because it's poorly written and mostly insistent upon itself, it's bad because it contradicts the entire premise of the game that has been set up thus far my Mojang themselves. From the main page: "Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine. At night monsters come out, make sure to build a shelter before that happens. It also has music by C418!". Is there any meta-theatricality in that? And characters named? Any premise other than sandbox with a bit of survival? And mention of extra-universal beings pulling strings behind a dimensional veil? No, it makes no damn sense at all *by Mojangs own definition and precedent as to what Minecraft is*.
You didn't analize anything : you used that "satire" as an argument to prove your point, which is the whole second paragraph
which is not an analysis : these are your conclusions, plain and simple. What are your points ? Which part of your analysis should I debate ? There's none. It's just you bashing the ending.
It's obvious you don't get it : those 2 characters you want developed in the story don't belong to the minecraft universe, they have nothing to do with Steve's story.
This ending isn't the ending of the game itself, rather the ending of the experience the player had with the game.
And all that wall of text just tries to point out that there's a correlation between Steve shaping the world he's into, and you, Xalgoz, shaping your own world. It's like a meta-ending.
For a game like Minecraft I don't see it being such and unfitting ending, unless you wanted something ala "Enderdragon death was merely a setback !" and all that jazz.
Steve's story doesn't begin nor end in Minecraft. The game itself has no ending. I already said it. But since players usually give themselves a goal, and the hardest thing to do in the game is killing the enderdragon, this is where the "player's quest" ends, and thus this is why you need an ending.
You are seeing this as a matrix-twist, which it isn't.
And to be clear, I still don't know how I feel about the ending, since I got to it after 10 minutes of creative mode gameplay. Still, regardless me liking it or not, I give it the benefit of the doubt.
Discussing it further with you would not be productive. I've explained at great length why I think the "ending" isn't any good in writing or mechanics, you've not really addressed any of that and dismiss the entire perspective for an acceptance that it's a meta-ending for the player themselves, like that's not a cop out or even needs to be there. The poll is doing well enough to at least shot people here aren't exactly stricken with it. So we're going to have to disagree, I say it's not good for the reasons I listed, and I'm really not convinced you've countered any of that or that your own position is even counter to mine or sound within itself.
If I had gone through the game working my way honestly to the ending, then I would have been seriously dissapointed. It was a lenghty and pointless story that I just minimized until it was over. I never played minecraft for a story. I played it so that I could build, destroy, and do as I pleased. I think there just needs to be the credits, then getting back to the game. No lengthy "story", just doing what we expect, playing minecraft with a pat on the back for getting to "The End" and back again. Hopefully they at least add music, or something else durring the story telling, that would have at least made it a little better.
I realise that I can just ignore the ending and all, but you asked what I thought. I have honestly answered that question.
I know it isn't asked for, but the dragon fight needed sounds of some sort. It feels half-baked with no sounds at all. Maybe dragon roaring when it is hit, a good battle theme playing in the background, and maybe some flapping sounds.
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It is not the weapon that makes the warrior, but the warrior that makes the weapon.
What would've been a good ending for Steve story ?
Steve has no past, nobody knows where he is, why he's there, nor who he is. There is nothing and noone Steve can relate with. The whole Minecraft story can be summarized in "there's Steve and there's a world made of blocks".
How can you end such a story ? You can't (Unless you make up something totally ridiculous based on fan fiction, like Herobrine).
The player itself while playing chooses what are Steve goals, the game doesn't point its finger in any direction. You shape your world, you choose to go to the End and defeat the Enderdragon. Why ? Why does the game have an ending right there ?
Because that was the player's goal, NOT Steve's.
Those two entities "talking" (It could have been just one, but I guess it's two to avoid a 10min monologue) have obviously no relation with the world of Minecraft, which is described as a world in which you were creating and destroying, hunting or being hunted, the whole speech revolves around the player and those 2 ask themselves what did you create while being behind a screen. Also they use your fking name.
And you can't see this being a meta-ending ?
It might be because English isn't my language but I just can't see any argument besides this which is hardly an argument.
But then again if you think that Steve was put in front of universe entities at the end of the game and told all that stuff yes, that would make no sense. Expect it isn't the case.
The player has no predetermined goal, the player makes their own goals, so any sort of "end" even breaking the 4th wall to speak directly to the player (which is debatable as to whether or not this is even what they are doing) is dubious. Again, there's no allusion to any meta-theatricality in the game to set up a meta-ending. It comes from nowhere and since it has no bearing or weight, it is immediately dismissed as nothing. If it serves no purpose, and the game doesn't need an ending, it's worse to have one (even a good one) than to not.
But that's the thing about Minecraft-- you don't have to follow a set storyline.
Heck if you really wanted to you could edit the win.txt or whatever it is to fit your storyline.
I agree that that's a pretty darn creepy ending, though, that the entirety of the game was a dream.
What was that one Mario game where at the end of the game, you find out that the entire flippin' thing was a dream?...
Kind of like The Legend of Zelda, Link's Awakening :smile.gif:
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"Love The Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength."
Wake up, doctor Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes.
Beginning of Half-Life 2, anyone?
Except neither of those are the same situation as minecraft. All of those have external character development (while the character doesn't speak, they gain a personality through others interacting with them), they have plot, story progression, and an established universe. In the Zelda series, it's been established that it's the same story in different universes with some consistent mechanics and characters. In Half-Life, it was actually an interesting way to bridge the somewhat vague narrative of the antiquated HL1 into the largely new universe of HL2. In that essence it was used as more of a re-boot as a mechanic, a trope to bring the same character(s) back into a newer universe with a much more established story without having to give Freeman any internal character development.
Plus, those are using some sort of "wake up" mechanic as a beginning, not an end. For Minecraft, the whole thing is tacked on, there's no justification for it and it seems to exist to just provide an excuse for Notch to sell his game as "deep" or some expression of vague meta-theatricality. If it has another purpose or intent, feel free to let me know, because right now I can't see it doing anything mechanically, nor does it create/fit any sort of narrative.
But whathever, I'm not arguing with someone that won't see something THIS obvious. I mean... here's a list :
"part of the game" "i like this player" "words on a screen" "he chooses to imagine many thing" "reality behind the screen" ... it's fckin filled with all these "hints"... and still .
Ahah ok ok :biggrin.gif:
(Also this was written by a novelist that has probably no relation to the game directly, doesn't know who the fck Herobrine is, nor Steve, but understands the general meaning of "sandbox game". It wasn't written by Notch.)
Once again, there are no meta-theatric allusions in the game to justify a meta-theatric ending. Where in the game are the allusions to an outside world? There is no text other than item descriptions, and none of those contain any such allusions. All you listed were quotes purely from the ending, and as I already stated, the ending insists upon itself, it has no reason for being other than the reason it gives itself, which is bad storytelling. Show me where the game alludes to *anything* in the ending to justify its existence.
Once again, there are no meta-theatric allusions in the game to justify a meta-theatric ending. Where in the game are the allusions to an outside world? There is no text other than item descriptions, and none of those contain any such allusions. All you listed were quotes purely from the ending, and as I already stated, the ending insists upon itself, it has no reason for being other than the reason it gives itself, which is bad storytelling. Show me where the game alludes to *anything* in the ending to justify its existence.
Quite. It's a classic bad ending that has no foreshadowing of any sort and comes out of nowhere. Other games that have good stories and deal with similar concepts do not tell a story so sloppily.
I wouldn't be surprised if this ending isn't in the final release. On the other hand, it is perfectly representative of the quality of the "adventure" update which is now being billed as a full release of the game. It's a rather lazy tacked on item that lacks the necessary depth and testing. We have an ending that comes completely out of left field, an adventure update that does basically nothing to encourage adventure in the unlimited world of Minecraft, NPCs that are cardboard cut-outs, enchanting that is a grindy hell, potions that are very limited, combat mechanics which are pretty poor, a boss fight that's long and boring, etc, etc. I like the idea of an adventure update and the idea of Minecraft in that state having a story, but this implementation is just extremely lacking on every level -- well, they might manage to have it relatively bug free, we'll see.
At least we can count on mods to add more interesting and complex features to the game. It's just a shame the actual creator of the game can't do the same. It does remind me of a post on Notch's blog where he talks about how he loses interest in projects before they are properly finished. I think that might be what's happened here.
It has been reported that some victims of torture, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being tortured. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP.
read this quote from the minecraft wiki then the ending cause im sure most of you haven't then it kinda makes sense, or it did to me.I thought the ending was fine i kinda liked it but it could use a lot of fixing still. If you don't like it , skip it. When you learn how to program games you can make whatever ending you want want but this is Notch's game and if he wants poems and what not then that's all unicorns and rainbows. Get over it
It has been reported that some victims of torture, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being tortured. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP.
read this quote from the minecraft wiki then the ending cause im sure most of you haven't then it kinda makes sense, or it did to me.I thought the ending was fine i kinda liked it but it could use a lot of fixing still. If you don't like it , skip it. When you learn how to program games you can make whatever ending you want want but this is Notch's game and if he wants poems and what not then that's all unicorns and rainbows. Get over it
But a game or story in general that wanted to do anything with this kind of narrative needs foreshadowing and some sort of build up to that conclusion. It is sloppy in the extreme to have this sort of ending come out of nowhere.
Notch is certainly allowed to do anything he wants to his game. That doesn't mean anything he does to it is good.
It has been reported that some victims of torture, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being tortured. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP.
read this quote from the minecraft wiki then the ending cause im sure most of you haven't then it kinda makes sense, or it did to me.I thought the ending was fine i kinda liked it but it could use a lot of fixing still. If you don't like it , skip it. When you learn how to program games you can make whatever ending you want want but this is Notch's game and if he wants poems and what not then that's all unicorns and rainbows. Get over it
Except the whole "just ignore it" assertion was thrown out a whole page ago and is a crappy defense for several reasons. Again, I really don't care what the ending is trying to get at, it's not justified within the game by any means and is bad storytelling. You can't tell me that a "wake up" ending is okay when it was never alluded, suggested, or hinted at in any way either the player or the character were "asleep" in any way prior to the said "wake up" ending.
I honestly think Notch is just trying to be a hipster with his own game and say "Look, my game is more than some random little creation about picking blocks up and putting them back down while fending off zombies and skeletons, it's better than that!" when minecraft is and always will be at its best when the focus is on it being a little creation based on picking blocks up and putting them down elsewhere while fending off zombies and skeletons. Minecraft doesn't need RPG elements (story or mechanics) to be at its best.
You know what would be awesome in place of all this RPG and ending nonsense? More block types with more interesting mechanics, less sucky combat, and more incentive to explore and/or band together with other players. All of those things would, in my opinion, make the game so much better than a tacked on story and an exp system centered around the most rudimentary combat I've seen in a game since the Atari.
To be honest, I personally think that the ending is absolutely terrible in every aspect. Aside from going completely against the very nature of the game, it's also really, really, really long.
Sandboxes have ends. Ever played GTA or Bully or other games? There's and ending but you keep playing. I felt the Minecraft ending was a very odd look on what Minecraft is.I beat the game, loaded back up and said... Well, time to go get some more diamond!
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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believe with a couple tweaks it could be amazing (it is pretty good now) maybe the dragon actually being hostile, or some other attack then ram into you or something?
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Come see my Dragon! it must grow, click the egg to visit!
I DO agree that it is ridiculous that there is an "ending" to the game. I was exited when I heard about the potions and all, but when I heard about the ender realm and dragons and all that, the game started to seem to close to like a role-playing game or something like that.
Having said that, you don't have to fight the ender dragon. Really, it is just minecraft with some added features. Maybe some people do want do use them; YOU don't have to; you can still do everything before 1.9.
I really done like the ending. I just done get it. :tongue.gif: I mean, I'm sure there's some deep symbolism and such in it because it was written by a poet, but honestly, this is just awful! It has little to do with the game and it seems very out of place. I do like the fact that Minecraft now has an ending, but why is it so confusing and long? I don't want this dream crap in Minecraft! But if Notch like it (for some weird reason) then I guess I shouldn't tell him what to put or not put in his game. *sigh*
Its stupid due to the fact that its a sandbox game, and that notch should spend his time on other stuff like the so far idiotic NPCs the maps not place-able on walls and cleaning up the code (working on less lag, or less bugs). and the factor that the game's ending was about some dream and saying that the game was in a sense "real" is just the most retarded thing I've heard in years. I'm fine with fighting a dragon, and I like how they did that (and the fountain)but the rest shouldn't be there
Amen. People who use the 'don't like it don't use it' comeback need to hop off Mojang's ****. Despite the number of days left until Minecraft is considered finished, it is still Beta and things can be edited. A while back nobody wanted an ending nor a storyline. We now have achievements that's all there should be. Honestly, 1.9 is screwing up Minecraft.
How is the ending meaningful? What meaning does it add by saying "By the way, the plotless sandbox you were just playing with no character development was just a dream, kind of."? Explain your assertion, I have a really hard time seeing any meaning in it since the game itself doesn't have any meaning or story.
For one, sample size, for two you're using false negatives to support your position. The entire population hasn't been polled, so you can't jump in and be a presumptive voice for that portion of the population and say "Well only a statistically irrelevant number of people dislike the ending". From the numbers we have, most people that *have been polled* don't like the ending, and it's not outlandish even in the field of statistics to note a small scale trend as important or possibly relevant on the large scale. Can we say what most people who play minecraft think? No, neither for the positive or the negative. Can we make assertions based on this poll? Yeah, we can say most people who care to be a part of the community here don't like the ending.
The "optional content" concept doesn't hold water either, as the ending contradicts the precedent Mojang themselves have set up with the game. An ending contradicts a game that's mostly goofy non-sensical sandbox fun in an unrealistic universe that has no plot, no character development, no meta-theatrical allusions, and no sort of linear objective based progress. The ending isn't bad just because it's poorly written and mostly insistent upon itself, it's bad because it contradicts the entire premise of the game that has been set up thus far my Mojang themselves. From the main page: "Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine. At night monsters come out, make sure to build a shelter before that happens. It also has music by C418!". Is there any meta-theatricality in that? And characters named? Any premise other than sandbox with a bit of survival? And mention of extra-universal beings pulling strings behind a dimensional veil? No, it makes no damn sense at all *by Mojangs own definition and precedent as to what Minecraft is*.
Discussing it further with you would not be productive. I've explained at great length why I think the "ending" isn't any good in writing or mechanics, you've not really addressed any of that and dismiss the entire perspective for an acceptance that it's a meta-ending for the player themselves, like that's not a cop out or even needs to be there. The poll is doing well enough to at least shot people here aren't exactly stricken with it. So we're going to have to disagree, I say it's not good for the reasons I listed, and I'm really not convinced you've countered any of that or that your own position is even counter to mine or sound within itself.
I realise that I can just ignore the ending and all, but you asked what I thought. I have honestly answered that question.
I know it isn't asked for, but the dragon fight needed sounds of some sort. It feels half-baked with no sounds at all. Maybe dragon roaring when it is hit, a good battle theme playing in the background, and maybe some flapping sounds.
It is not the weapon that makes the warrior, but the warrior that makes the weapon.
The player has no predetermined goal, the player makes their own goals, so any sort of "end" even breaking the 4th wall to speak directly to the player (which is debatable as to whether or not this is even what they are doing) is dubious. Again, there's no allusion to any meta-theatricality in the game to set up a meta-ending. It comes from nowhere and since it has no bearing or weight, it is immediately dismissed as nothing. If it serves no purpose, and the game doesn't need an ending, it's worse to have one (even a good one) than to not.
Kind of like The Legend of Zelda, Link's Awakening :smile.gif:
Except neither of those are the same situation as minecraft. All of those have external character development (while the character doesn't speak, they gain a personality through others interacting with them), they have plot, story progression, and an established universe. In the Zelda series, it's been established that it's the same story in different universes with some consistent mechanics and characters. In Half-Life, it was actually an interesting way to bridge the somewhat vague narrative of the antiquated HL1 into the largely new universe of HL2. In that essence it was used as more of a re-boot as a mechanic, a trope to bring the same character(s) back into a newer universe with a much more established story without having to give Freeman any internal character development.
Plus, those are using some sort of "wake up" mechanic as a beginning, not an end. For Minecraft, the whole thing is tacked on, there's no justification for it and it seems to exist to just provide an excuse for Notch to sell his game as "deep" or some expression of vague meta-theatricality. If it has another purpose or intent, feel free to let me know, because right now I can't see it doing anything mechanically, nor does it create/fit any sort of narrative.
Once again, there are no meta-theatric allusions in the game to justify a meta-theatric ending. Where in the game are the allusions to an outside world? There is no text other than item descriptions, and none of those contain any such allusions. All you listed were quotes purely from the ending, and as I already stated, the ending insists upon itself, it has no reason for being other than the reason it gives itself, which is bad storytelling. Show me where the game alludes to *anything* in the ending to justify its existence.
Quite. It's a classic bad ending that has no foreshadowing of any sort and comes out of nowhere. Other games that have good stories and deal with similar concepts do not tell a story so sloppily.
I wouldn't be surprised if this ending isn't in the final release. On the other hand, it is perfectly representative of the quality of the "adventure" update which is now being billed as a full release of the game. It's a rather lazy tacked on item that lacks the necessary depth and testing. We have an ending that comes completely out of left field, an adventure update that does basically nothing to encourage adventure in the unlimited world of Minecraft, NPCs that are cardboard cut-outs, enchanting that is a grindy hell, potions that are very limited, combat mechanics which are pretty poor, a boss fight that's long and boring, etc, etc. I like the idea of an adventure update and the idea of Minecraft in that state having a story, but this implementation is just extremely lacking on every level -- well, they might manage to have it relatively bug free, we'll see.
At least we can count on mods to add more interesting and complex features to the game. It's just a shame the actual creator of the game can't do the same. It does remind me of a post on Notch's blog where he talks about how he loses interest in projects before they are properly finished. I think that might be what's happened here.
read this quote from the minecraft wiki then the ending cause im sure most of you haven't then it kinda makes sense, or it did to me.I thought the ending was fine i kinda liked it but it could use a lot of fixing still. If you don't like it , skip it. When you learn how to program games you can make whatever ending you want want but this is Notch's game and if he wants poems and what not then that's all unicorns and rainbows. Get over it
But a game or story in general that wanted to do anything with this kind of narrative needs foreshadowing and some sort of build up to that conclusion. It is sloppy in the extreme to have this sort of ending come out of nowhere.
Notch is certainly allowed to do anything he wants to his game. That doesn't mean anything he does to it is good.
Except the whole "just ignore it" assertion was thrown out a whole page ago and is a crappy defense for several reasons. Again, I really don't care what the ending is trying to get at, it's not justified within the game by any means and is bad storytelling. You can't tell me that a "wake up" ending is okay when it was never alluded, suggested, or hinted at in any way either the player or the character were "asleep" in any way prior to the said "wake up" ending.
I honestly think Notch is just trying to be a hipster with his own game and say "Look, my game is more than some random little creation about picking blocks up and putting them back down while fending off zombies and skeletons, it's better than that!" when minecraft is and always will be at its best when the focus is on it being a little creation based on picking blocks up and putting them down elsewhere while fending off zombies and skeletons. Minecraft doesn't need RPG elements (story or mechanics) to be at its best.
You know what would be awesome in place of all this RPG and ending nonsense? More block types with more interesting mechanics, less sucky combat, and more incentive to explore and/or band together with other players. All of those things would, in my opinion, make the game so much better than a tacked on story and an exp system centered around the most rudimentary combat I've seen in a game since the Atari.
Sandboxes have ends. Ever played GTA or Bully or other games? There's and ending but you keep playing. I felt the Minecraft ending was a very odd look on what Minecraft is.I beat the game, loaded back up and said... Well, time to go get some more diamond!
Having said that, you don't have to fight the ender dragon. Really, it is just minecraft with some added features. Maybe some people do want do use them; YOU don't have to; you can still do everything before 1.9.