This was partially posted on another person's thread that later got deleted (the thread did, not my post) but I put too much work into writing so I thought I'd just start a new thread of my own based on my general concerns of the game and the forum discussions.
Personal View of the patches (Meaning expected bias included) -- <The only thing have qualms about 1.9 are the NPCs, like around 50-70% (Average figures from several polls I've seen here) of the Minecraft Forums population also do.
Original idea. Yes, and that is to be applauded.
Spitting in they eyes of RPG-ers who just want a normal village for their adventure maps/servers. Probably.
Trust broken between Notch and community? Getting there.
I don't know why he would make those models. I mean, I can deal with an ugly texture. But the noses and arms are a bit too deliberate. Adding those noses restricts not only RPG-ers but texture pack makers who have to work around the NPCs.
Again, a unique idea but it is like inventing a sponge on a stick to mop a floor when there is a mop readily available. I don't see why anyone would miss so horribly on purpose.
Just keep the ugly and change the models and everyone will be happy. You can re-texture ugly easily, but modding out models is much trickier. That's the only solution I see tho this evident problem which continues to rattle on in this forum.
And, I see the other side of the argument, don't get me wrong. I like the guys too, in a weird way, but the method in which they were introduced and the trust broken between Notch and the community in how they were brought to us is unforgivable.>
-- But, the general forum hatred of TESTFICATEs is a part of a working solution to something that is statistically disliked by the majority (and therein lies the proof of hatred). This issue is the one that forums like this were made for. Despite your feelings toward the NPCs, there is a greater chance they will change than there isn't.
Now... Concerning forum hate.
The hate is always there. My suggestion is to stay away from forums like hellfire if you don't like hatred. I know people who say things like this are usually trolls, but in this case there is no other way to say it. Forums are nasty, horrible, and generally unproductive places where people get to argue biased ideas. It is a mix between those who dream and those who kill dreams. If you really want to end forum hate, destroy the forum. Otherwise save yourself the frustration and leave. (I hate it when people say "you won't be missed", that's not true. All voices SHOULD be welcome, despite what is said, and a lack of a statistic in the long run is an inaccuracy overall. That's only logical.) But, forums also bring great things, generally from the hosts of the server. Minecraftforums' is a great place for information on the game, and I am glad it exists. But the people who discuss are essentially the weakest links in a great chain.
With concerns to the "useless" things being added; Notch can add anything he wants, and so far it has been welcome stuff by the majority of the community. But the bigger the changes the more people you'll **** off. And when all those people bring together the one thing they each are pissed at they all then share what they dislike until you have near-copies of people who dislike all the same things. At that point too many people are conditioned by negativism to appreciate anything. The mistake here was big change all at once, and in a clumsy fashion.
Had pre-releases not been implemented then most would overlook the clumsy fashion in which the current patches were introduced, given time. People would still rage, but they will soon grow tired and deal with it -- that's human nature. Unfortunately, the pre-releases came, people raged not only at the game but at Notch and the "new methods" of putting out patches and nothing is being forgotten.
Then all that rage is directed towards the dreamers, who have always brought new ideas to the table. That's part of the reason why so much hate is going out towards people who wish to balance the game. Any forums under the pretenses of "What if they added..." are shot down by a negativism that has indirectly gained momentum from the lousy manner in which the updates where brought to us. It is sickening to see how many people just blatantly say "That's stupid, you're stupid" but it is unavoidable. Which brings me to my final point.
Short Recap:
Leave the forums if you are tired of hate. But despite what your feelings, there must always be a forum, and it must always be filled with biased hatred, just as evenly as it is filled with aide to consistent issues.
In the end, the forums generally consist of selfish people (not to say being selfish is a completely bad thing). Dreamers are OK, as the majority are constructive, albeit often unbalanced and unnecessary, but what really should stop (not saying I ever expect it to) are those who put down those ideas with short non-constructive statements like "That's stupid". ALWAYS discuss the worst-case scenario. If you hate something, don't just disagree with it, offer what you would do to change it to your liking. Anyone can say if something is stupid, but it is the purpose of discussion to offer change to an idea. Just saying "No" is not a discussion, that's a rash put-down of a valid suggestion without competitive reasoning behind it, and it really brings nothing to the table nor expands your personal ability to come up with persuasive and appealing ideas and compensations -- in which case you are the only one truly loosing from the interaction.
Undoubtedly this post of mine, for those willing to read it through, will be digested and hated on. But in the end it is impossible to remove all bias from anything greater than three words. And for that, I'm sorry. I tried to look at it from both sides the best I could, and I hope by saying this no one will burn me for anything anyone would disagree with. But theoretically, it is ignorant to dismiss the inevitable purpose, execution, and uselessness of this hatred.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: If you don't like an idea, don't just say "I don't like it" or "So and so doesn't like it". That is grossly unproductive. Offer a counter to any suggestion -- what would you do if the main idea of a change were to be instituted and you had the power to fit it in any way you want? If you can't offer a complete personal preference for an idea given that it will be implemented in some way, then what is the point in expressing an opinion?
I don't know if this post will be removed, neglected, or what-have-you, but I hope it will change some minds towards thinking pro-actively instead of spreading hate.
Hate is good, but offer unbiased reasoning for the hate. Personal opinion cannot be weighed, but the statistical chance for every opinion can be. In that sense, completely disagreeing with something is irrational because the presence of exceptions.
In conclusion, I know this is long-winded, and probably going to go poof by the end of the day, but I challenge everyone to just take the time and re-evaluate to what degree you discuss on the forums. Are you biased? Do you offer any challenging alternatives to any given idea? How do you find satisfaction by using the forums?
<For the following, I will post my overall reaction to several new features.>
-NPC Villagers, I like the idea, but disagree with the implementation. Not everyone could be satisfied with the choice. And one thing I noticed is that there would have been much less hate had the expected NPC (steve variant/pigman) been used.
-Endermen I like, they are fun in theory. The moving of blocks I feel is a predictable necessity of the game (an NPC that moves blocks/simulates human action). The problem is that we have a better source of this factor -- Creepers. The effect of creepers can be controlled, but is still devastating. Endermen could probably be better off as the mass-teleporting monster it is soon to become.
-Netherwarts are neat, but only being able to grow in the nether is limited. I like the pull they bring to the Nether, but a lack of growth on both worlds simultaneously is too restrictive for something that may be required constantly for the upcoming potions.
-Potions could be fun, though a little hard to balance. Lava resistance (predictable effect) seems like an issue for adventure maps however, but also produces several opportunities as well.
-Biomes would have been better had they all come out together. Appreciation seems to be lost for them due to the shabby implementation. The only way to have everything for everyone is to allow mountains, waterways, and caves each be secondary aspects of the biomes and their climate be another. That way you could have mountainous deserts and non-mountainous deserts, mountainous forests and non-mountainous forests. The biome you would want would be harder to find, but seeds offer endless worlds to explore. Unfortunately biomes will never be balanced, but as is they are fine for the means of the game.
-Oceans are a bit too large for most seeds and too scarce for others. A solution to this problem is that each map selects a spawn with a certain amount of blocks above sea level near the spawning point. That way you are sure to always land on a continent and not an island without any trees. On the other hand, island-survival on limited resources is a respectable play-style, as are all, and therein lies the problem with oceans. My only suggestion would be to add an option to toggle on and off the block identifier for when the spawning location is placed. But as is, they are fine for the means of the game. Their depth is also intensive on computers running the game. A solution is similar to my biome solution -- being that deeper oceans are considered to have mountain sub-factors.
-Breeding is too unbalanced and there needs to be restrictions on the frequency. A possible solution is that only a certain amount of breeding can take place in any chunk for a day. A simple flag counter can accomplish this.
-Villages spawn rather frequently in deserts. Just an observation of mine, but it think it has to do with the flatness of the desert and the flatness requirement of the village. A possible solution would be to dismiss leaves and wood during the generation and then remove all leaves and wood from around the town radially.
-Skills and experience are welcome, but need to be non-restrictive to some degree. (Under the assumption that it would restrict movement/armor/strength to something under the normal range if they are not used, thereby forcing their usage.)
-Fog button needs to come back. It is too important a feature and logic only assumes not everyone can have a high-end computer. If the flames for monster-spawners are the reason for this change to begin with, then place a momentary picture in front of the screen during the transitions -- much like when being suffocated by sand or gravel. People won't cheat then and people can still play.
For the most part, that is all I want to say. Bye bye.
Oh, and to any moderators who have to read through all of this to choose whether or not to allow it, I'm sorry and I appreciate all the work you do!:biggrin.gif:
Edit:
-Clarity in threat posting concerning previous thread.
-Association of bias from personal consideration of NPCs at the start assumed to be personal while reactions are more unbiased in nature (at least I tried to make them unbiased) offering solutions to satisfy all parties.
Since you opened with "my last thread got deleted", it killed my motivation to read the rest of your post, since it's safe to assume that this one will be deleted too. If I see that it's still up and has active conversation, I'll come back for a second look.
Since you opened with "my last thread got deleted", it killed my motivation to read the rest of your post, since it's safe to assume that this one will be deleted too. If I see that it's still up and has active conversation, I'll come back for a second look.
The thread I attempted to post in was not in fact my thread. It was another thread that deteriorated into an inappropriate thread.
But no, it was not my thread, and I was effectively pointing out the flaws of the thread.
Also, to any readers; I am very picky with my word choice. If I say something using a particular word of which could be interchanged with another then I picked the one I meant. I made care to ensure I could elaborate at any of these points.
The thread I attempted to post in was not in fact my thread. It was another thread that deteriorated into an inappropriate thread.
But no, it was not my thread, and I was effectively pointing out the flaws of the thread.
Also, to any readers; I am very picky with my word choice. If I say something using a particular word of which could be interchanged with another then I picked the one I meant. I made care to ensure I could elaborate at any of these points.
Either way, it was posted within a conversation that was deemed inappropriate and/or unuseful, so I'd say my unease is fair. I'm not saying yours is necessarily a useless topic (I have been reading it since my last post) I just don't want to get into a discussion if it's going to get locked, or if no one else is going to post.
That is the longest post I've ever seen on the Minecraft forums. It's probably going to scare off a lot of people.
Either way, it was posted within a conversation that was deemed inappropriate and/or unuseful, so I'd say my unease is fair. I'm not saying yours is necessarily a useless topic (I have been reading it since my last post) I just don't want to get into a discussion if it's going to get locked, or if no one else is going to post.
That is the longest post I've ever seen on the Minecraft forums. It's probably going to scare off a lot of people.
I added some words to clarify. I know it is long, but I didn't want to make three threads to express three separate concerns of mine.
Also, I don't don't want to come off as snood (sometimes I do). I do appreciate your criticism.
Personal View of the patches (Meaning expected bias included) -- <The only thing have qualms about 1.9 are the NPCs, like around 50-70% (Average figures from several polls I've seen here) of the Minecraft Forums population also do.
Original idea. Yes, and that is to be applauded.
Spitting in they eyes of RPG-ers who just want a normal village for their adventure maps/servers. Probably.
Trust broken between Notch and community? Getting there.
I don't know why he would make those models. I mean, I can deal with an ugly texture. But the noses and arms are a bit too deliberate. Adding those noses restricts not only RPG-ers but texture pack makers who have to work around the NPCs.
Again, a unique idea but it is like inventing a sponge on a stick to mop a floor when there is a mop readily available. I don't see why anyone would miss so horribly on purpose.
Just keep the ugly and change the models and everyone will be happy. You can re-texture ugly easily, but modding out models is much trickier. That's the only solution I see tho this evident problem which continues to rattle on in this forum.
And, I see the other side of the argument, don't get me wrong. I like the guys too, in a weird way, but the method in which they were introduced and the trust broken between Notch and the community in how they were brought to us is unforgivable.>
-- But, the general forum hatred of TESTFICATEs is a part of a working solution to something that is statistically disliked by the majority (and therein lies the proof of hatred). This issue is the one that forums like this were made for. Despite your feelings toward the NPCs, there is a greater chance they will change than there isn't.
Now... Concerning forum hate.
The hate is always there. My suggestion is to stay away from forums like hellfire if you don't like hatred. I know people who say things like this are usually trolls, but in this case there is no other way to say it. Forums are nasty, horrible, and generally unproductive places where people get to argue biased ideas. It is a mix between those who dream and those who kill dreams. If you really want to end forum hate, destroy the forum. Otherwise save yourself the frustration and leave. (I hate it when people say "you won't be missed", that's not true. All voices SHOULD be welcome, despite what is said, and a lack of a statistic in the long run is an inaccuracy overall. That's only logical.) But, forums also bring great things, generally from the hosts of the server. Minecraftforums' is a great place for information on the game, and I am glad it exists. But the people who discuss are essentially the weakest links in a great chain.
With concerns to the "useless" things being added; Notch can add anything he wants, and so far it has been welcome stuff by the majority of the community. But the bigger the changes the more people you'll **** off. And when all those people bring together the one thing they each are pissed at they all then share what they dislike until you have near-copies of people who dislike all the same things. At that point too many people are conditioned by negativism to appreciate anything. The mistake here was big change all at once, and in a clumsy fashion.
Had pre-releases not been implemented then most would overlook the clumsy fashion in which the current patches were introduced, given time. People would still rage, but they will soon grow tired and deal with it -- that's human nature. Unfortunately, the pre-releases came, people raged not only at the game but at Notch and the "new methods" of putting out patches and nothing is being forgotten.
Then all that rage is directed towards the dreamers, who have always brought new ideas to the table. That's part of the reason why so much hate is going out towards people who wish to balance the game. Any forums under the pretenses of "What if they added..." are shot down by a negativism that has indirectly gained momentum from the lousy manner in which the updates where brought to us. It is sickening to see how many people just blatantly say "That's stupid, you're stupid" but it is unavoidable. Which brings me to my final point.
Short Recap:
Leave the forums if you are tired of hate. But despite what your feelings, there must always be a forum, and it must always be filled with biased hatred, just as evenly as it is filled with aide to consistent issues.
In the end, the forums generally consist of selfish people (not to say being selfish is a completely bad thing). Dreamers are OK, as the majority are constructive, albeit often unbalanced and unnecessary, but what really should stop (not saying I ever expect it to) are those who put down those ideas with short non-constructive statements like "That's stupid". ALWAYS discuss the worst-case scenario. If you hate something, don't just disagree with it, offer what you would do to change it to your liking. Anyone can say if something is stupid, but it is the purpose of discussion to offer change to an idea. Just saying "No" is not a discussion, that's a rash put-down of a valid suggestion without competitive reasoning behind it, and it really brings nothing to the table nor expands your personal ability to come up with persuasive and appealing ideas and compensations -- in which case you are the only one truly loosing from the interaction.
Undoubtedly this post of mine, for those willing to read it through, will be digested and hated on. But in the end it is impossible to remove all bias from anything greater than three words. And for that, I'm sorry. I tried to look at it from both sides the best I could, and I hope by saying this no one will burn me for anything anyone would disagree with. But theoretically, it is ignorant to dismiss the inevitable purpose, execution, and uselessness of this hatred.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: If you don't like an idea, don't just say "I don't like it" or "So and so doesn't like it". That is grossly unproductive. Offer a counter to any suggestion -- what would you do if the main idea of a change were to be instituted and you had the power to fit it in any way you want? If you can't offer a complete personal preference for an idea given that it will be implemented in some way, then what is the point in expressing an opinion?
I don't know if this post will be removed, neglected, or what-have-you, but I hope it will change some minds towards thinking pro-actively instead of spreading hate.
Hate is good, but offer unbiased reasoning for the hate. Personal opinion cannot be weighed, but the statistical chance for every opinion can be. In that sense, completely disagreeing with something is irrational because the presence of exceptions.
In conclusion, I know this is long-winded, and probably going to go poof by the end of the day, but I challenge everyone to just take the time and re-evaluate to what degree you discuss on the forums. Are you biased? Do you offer any challenging alternatives to any given idea? How do you find satisfaction by using the forums?
<For the following, I will post my overall reaction to several new features.>
-NPC Villagers, I like the idea, but disagree with the implementation. Not everyone could be satisfied with the choice. And one thing I noticed is that there would have been much less hate had the expected NPC (steve variant/pigman) been used.
-Endermen I like, they are fun in theory. The moving of blocks I feel is a predictable necessity of the game (an NPC that moves blocks/simulates human action). The problem is that we have a better source of this factor -- Creepers. The effect of creepers can be controlled, but is still devastating. Endermen could probably be better off as the mass-teleporting monster it is soon to become.
-Netherwarts are neat, but only being able to grow in the nether is limited. I like the pull they bring to the Nether, but a lack of growth on both worlds simultaneously is too restrictive for something that may be required constantly for the upcoming potions.
-Potions could be fun, though a little hard to balance. Lava resistance (predictable effect) seems like an issue for adventure maps however, but also produces several opportunities as well.
-Biomes would have been better had they all come out together. Appreciation seems to be lost for them due to the shabby implementation. The only way to have everything for everyone is to allow mountains, waterways, and caves each be secondary aspects of the biomes and their climate be another. That way you could have mountainous deserts and non-mountainous deserts, mountainous forests and non-mountainous forests. The biome you would want would be harder to find, but seeds offer endless worlds to explore. Unfortunately biomes will never be balanced, but as is they are fine for the means of the game.
-Oceans are a bit too large for most seeds and too scarce for others. A solution to this problem is that each map selects a spawn with a certain amount of blocks above sea level near the spawning point. That way you are sure to always land on a continent and not an island without any trees. On the other hand, island-survival on limited resources is a respectable play-style, as are all, and therein lies the problem with oceans. My only suggestion would be to add an option to toggle on and off the block identifier for when the spawning location is placed. But as is, they are fine for the means of the game. Their depth is also intensive on computers running the game. A solution is similar to my biome solution -- being that deeper oceans are considered to have mountain sub-factors.
-Breeding is too unbalanced and there needs to be restrictions on the frequency. A possible solution is that only a certain amount of breeding can take place in any chunk for a day. A simple flag counter can accomplish this.
-Villages spawn rather frequently in deserts. Just an observation of mine, but it think it has to do with the flatness of the desert and the flatness requirement of the village. A possible solution would be to dismiss leaves and wood during the generation and then remove all leaves and wood from around the town radially.
-Skills and experience are welcome, but need to be non-restrictive to some degree. (Under the assumption that it would restrict movement/armor/strength to something under the normal range if they are not used, thereby forcing their usage.)
-Fog button needs to come back. It is too important a feature and logic only assumes not everyone can have a high-end computer. If the flames for monster-spawners are the reason for this change to begin with, then place a momentary picture in front of the screen during the transitions -- much like when being suffocated by sand or gravel. People won't cheat then and people can still play.
For the most part, that is all I want to say. Bye bye.
Oh, and to any moderators who have to read through all of this to choose whether or not to allow it, I'm sorry and I appreciate all the work you do!:biggrin.gif:
Edit:
-Clarity in threat posting concerning previous thread.
-Association of bias from personal consideration of NPCs at the start assumed to be personal while reactions are more unbiased in nature (at least I tried to make them unbiased) offering solutions to satisfy all parties.
gargamel: http://www.gamefront.com/files/22576198/gargamel Converted.zip Glacier: PM Me
The thread I attempted to post in was not in fact my thread. It was another thread that deteriorated into an inappropriate thread.
But no, it was not my thread, and I was effectively pointing out the flaws of the thread.
Also, to any readers; I am very picky with my word choice. If I say something using a particular word of which could be interchanged with another then I picked the one I meant. I made care to ensure I could elaborate at any of these points.
gargamel: http://www.gamefront.com/files/22576198/gargamel Converted.zip Glacier: PM Me
Either way, it was posted within a conversation that was deemed inappropriate and/or unuseful, so I'd say my unease is fair. I'm not saying yours is necessarily a useless topic (I have been reading it since my last post) I just don't want to get into a discussion if it's going to get locked, or if no one else is going to post.
That is the longest post I've ever seen on the Minecraft forums. It's probably going to scare off a lot of people.
I added some words to clarify. I know it is long, but I didn't want to make three threads to express three separate concerns of mine.
Also, I don't don't want to come off as snood (sometimes I do). I do appreciate your criticism.
gargamel: http://www.gamefront.com/files/22576198/gargamel Converted.zip Glacier: PM Me