Items and XP are easy to come by in the game. I think a completely random system would be better than one where you have the potential to know what the best spells are. If you wanted to go the random dropped book route, spells would have to have a failure rate relative to their effect. So if you use an enchantment, there is always the possibility it will fail and curse your weapon instead of enchant it. Better books would carry heavier curses and have a higher failure rate.
Other possibilities might be adding some complexity to the random system. Enchantments still just cost XP and use the enchanting table, but the more you use it, the more likely you'll pull off higher tier enchantments.
Items and XP are easy to come by in the game. I think a completely random system would be better than one where you have the potential to know what the best spells are. If you wanted to go the random dropped book route, spells would have to have a failure rate relative to their effect. So if you use an enchantment, there is always the possibility it will fail and curse your weapon instead of enchant it. Better books would carry heavier curses and have a higher failure rate.
Other possibilities might be adding some complexity to the random system. Enchantments still just cost XP and use the enchanting table, but the more you use it, the more likely you'll pull off higher tier enchantments.
Randomly determining the effects of the enchantment actually adds a new dimension to the game, particularly in multiplayer. Basically, it functions a lot like random item drops in RPGs. Usually monsters drop random weapons and armor that may have different bonuses or effects. This way everybody doesn't get the exact same weapons and armor, even if they look the same. It also opens the game up for an in game economy as players trade weapons and items based on their play style.
I'm interested to see where this goes. I get the feeling negative effects will be less likely than positive. It would also be nice if there were rare chances for higher tiered effects, rather than just stacking (effects could also stack, but if you're really lucky you might pull off a spell which adds +2 or 3 to damage t your sword instead of just +1). Plus, the big bonus is that enchanting is semi-permanent, while death wipes your skills and XP.
Granted, rare items can also have their downside in the form of unwanted PvP.
I understand that it is reminencent of random loot drops in RPGs, but the ynamic is different. For one, even a useless drop can generally be sold. When the dragon drops teh tanfas and might and you are using a boradsword, you take it to the shop and sell it, and use the gold to get something you do want. Maybe villagers will be willing to buy your rejected weapons, which would help with that aspect, but you still mined for diamonds, made a sword, spent xp crafting it, and got a dud.
Also, you don't have to expend your resources to get loot drops in RPGs. You have to fight and earn it, yes, but the random loot is part of the reward for killing the monster. You get experience, gold, and random loot. Some of the random loot is used as-is, and most is converted into gold. You also kill a series of monsters and get a lot of potential loot, so the random chance of getting a good item is iterated over time, and failures don't matter. With enchanting, you get one shot, expend resources, and so if it fails to give you a good result, you have just wasted your resoures.
Additionally, no RPG I know of has a random result for enchanting an item. Enchanting an item yourself is typically how you get precisely the item you want, avoiding the random chance.
Especially since notch has mentioned tiers. unless each power simply has 3 power levels, that means you get multiple effects on one weapon. So even if you are fortunate enough to get an enchantment that you want, the chance that the second is also desired is lower, and if it messes up, you have to repeat the process to get your level 1 sword again to try to enchant it to level 3. Sure, thelevel 2 version of your good sword is still going to be better than your level 1 good sword, so its not goign to ruin it... just ruin its candedency for advancement.
I've always felt that magic items like this should be less about having the best wepeon, but instead having the best weapon for your playstyle. Hence, being able to customize your things to do what you want is important.
But maybe I am just approaching this from the wrong direction and trying to do the wrong thing with the system. I don't know. Its certainly not what I would have designed.
This has a couple of interesting implications...I wonder if this means that skills as traditional passives won't exist? He could just be baking the skills into enchantments, so you can put together +run speed boots instead of putting experience into +run speed passively.
Also, I like the idea of using the experience for this. Maybe the experience is just used as a Shadowrun style karma bar that can be blown away for special effects of various kinds, enchantments being one of them.
Additionally, no RPG I know of has a random result for enchanting an item. Enchanting an item yourself is typically how you get precisely the item you want, avoiding the random chance.
Diablo II had it in a limited extent (Charsi making a rare item), and Torchlight uses random enchants as a core mechanic.
On the flip side, in Torchlight, most any enchant is 'good' (if not ideal) and the resource to enchant (gold) falls out of the freaking sky.
Right, I think you will probably not get a curse, and perhaps the type of item you use (such as a diamond sword) might improve the positive chances. And who knows, maybe enchantment itself will be a skill that is levelable, enabling you to get good enchants more often.
Personally I'm just interested in the Cauldron being used to make beer from wheat. Enchantments? Just a decoration for my library :wink.gif:
Right, I think you will probably not get a curse, and perhaps the type of item you use (such as a diamond sword) might improve the positive chances. And who knows, maybe enchantment itself will be a skill that is levelable, enabling you to get good enchants more often.
Yeah...I'm kind of worried about the system being weird and chaotic, but I'll have to know more about how it will actually work to really judge it.
Just, we're not going to get 'super runes' or whatever the mod was. Would be nice if magic was not just unpredictable, but had an element that suggested it was somewhat unsavory as well.
I remember Notch saying he wanted magic and alchemy in the game, and from the looks of things we're going to get it. It makes me very excited. I love the look of the Enchanting table and the open book on top of it in the picture that was released. It does look like diamonds will be a part of the crafting recipe if the color of the corners of the enchanting table are any indication.
It makes sense to me, that you would need some rare ore/mineral/items to craft a magical item such as an Enchanting table. I don't know how I feel about the Enchantments being random. I won't know until I have a chance to play with it. I think I am leaning on being okay with it, mostly because it's an Enchanting Table and not a Curse Table. I think that implies that whatever enchantment is done, regardless of being random, will be a positive and not a negative effect. No reason to make something out of diamonds unless it is beneficial.
Also, you don't have to expend your resources to get loot drops in RPGs.
Depends on the RPG. A lot of rouge-likes (which seems to be what Notch is trying to emulate here) have durable equipment, so you do in fact expend resources in order to get better stuff at the risk of getting stuff that isn't as good.
Additionally, no RPG I know of has a random result for enchanting an item. Enchanting an item yourself is typically how you get precisely the item you want, avoiding the random chance.
Play some more MMOs. There are quite a few with variable and randomly determined enchanting systems.
Especially since notch has mentioned tiers. unless each power simply has 3 power levels, that means you get multiple effects on one weapon. So even if you are fortunate enough to get an enchantment that you want, the chance that the second is also desired is lower, and if it messes up, you have to repeat the process to get your level 1 sword again to try to enchant it to level 3. Sure, thelevel 2 version of your good sword is still going to be better than your level 1 good sword, so its not goign to ruin it... just ruin its candedency for advancement.
I don't see a problem with that. The alternative is that it's really easy to get exactly what you want, everybody on servers are using the same equipment, and everything just feels bland and generic. A completely predictable system is no different from what we have now. Why bother with enchanting at all in that case? Why not just craft different materials into better weapons, armor and tools?
I've always felt that magic items like this should be less about having the best wepeon, but instead having the best weapon for your playstyle. Hence, being able to customize your things to do what you want is important.
Getting exactly what you want right from the start reduces variety and eliminates the need for any sort of tier system. Why apply any enchantments until you get the best ones? Making the system predictable just makes any lower tier or less useful enchantments totally worthless. Not being able to get exactly what you want every time encourages you to keep trying for something better. Some configurations are harder to come by than others, so you use a lower level item until you can get something better.
Depends on the RPG. A lot of rouge-likes (which seems to be what Notch is trying to emulate here) have durable equipment, so you do in fact expend resources in order to get better stuff at the risk of getting stuff that isn't as good.
Oh yeah, I forgot rogue-likes. Enchanting in NetHack, for example, was very iffy. Beyond a certain strength, weapons had a chance of simply dissolving...and scrolls of enchant weapon were quite rare.
I think the idea of powerful enchants paired with a very random system, however, isn't a very common idea in video games, though. It's a strange conflation of events.
Depends on the RPG. A lot of rouge-likes (which seems to be what Notch is trying to emulate here) have durable equipment, so you do in fact expend resources in order to get better stuff at the risk of getting stuff that isn't as good.
you are still progressing through the game. That mechanic encourages you to continue on and fight bigger enemies, who presumably will drop better loot, instead of lounging around the area you are at using up resources in the hopes of dropping a better item. With all of the rouge-likes I've played, you have to balance the drive to go forward and take on bigger challenges and get better stuff with hanging around and trying to grind up for an advantage. The game is actively discouraging grinding for the perfect weapon. You fight a samuri who has a good chance of droppping a cool sword, and yo uare still gaining experience, gaining loot, and progressing forward. You don't gather resources, go to enchant an item, and have it be a dud, setting you back however long it took you to gather that stuff.
Play some more MMOs. There are quite a few with variable and randomly determined enchanting systems.
I do not hold MMOs as evidence of good design. The entire motive around their design is gettign you to play longer. The longer you are playing, the more subscription fees you pay, the more profit they get. This is not a breeding ground for excellent gameplay. Hence, they have mechanics that force you to grind for what you want. That is awful, its sole purpose is to inflate your game time.
Also, as much as nethack has going for it, I don't see it being a shining example of game design. Don't get me wrong, it does a lot of things very right. The big reason I stopped playing is that your success was highly, highly dependant on luck. You go to a fountain and drink. If you are lucky, you get attribute bonuses, get a wish granted, or some cool effect. Unlcuky, a powerful demon arrives and squishes you. If you find an amulet of reflection you are set. If you don't, you will probably be killed. There is a lot of depth in strategy and tactics, but even pefect execution fails if chance doesn't shine on you. You are constantly faced with choices that boil down to "if this fails, it is going to kill you and you have to sstart over. If it works, it will grant a much-needed advantage". And when that is constantly present, it will fail eventually.
I don't see a problem with that. The alternative is that it's really easy to get exactly what you want, everybody on servers are using the same equipment, and everything just feels bland and generic. A completely predictable system is no different from what we have now. Why bother with enchanting at all in that case? Why not just craft different materials into better weapons, armor and tools?
Only if a certain set of equipment is better. The key is to make them different, so different people will tend to use different things. RPGs offer a wide variety of classes, and people play different ones because it fits their style. And if certain sets of equipment are better, than having certain characters get it based purely on luck is not good balance.
Getting exactly what you want right from the start reduces variety and eliminates the need for any sort of tier system. Why apply any enchantments until you get the best ones? Making the system predictable just makes any lower tier or less useful enchantments totally worthless. Not being able to get exactly what you want every time encourages you to keep trying for something better. Some configurations are harder to come by than others, so you use a lower level item until you can get something better.
one person gets the sword of god on his first try. Another fails to get it after 100 tries. taht is an awful tier progression mechanic. Random progression through tiers is aweful. If you can get what you need, the cost of an individual crafing can be higher. You can have it so you need a lower tier item to craft the next higher tier, enforcing a progression through the ranks. And increasing cost for each tier makes transitioning between them non-trivial. You go out, use the weapon for a while, gain experience, and then use it to upgrade to the next level. And since it does take experience, it is quite possible that uprading the sword will drop you several levels, making it something you might want to hold off on. You take the xp hit now, and have a semi-permement item, and continue leveling up again.
I'm a big fan of character customization. I love pouring over options and assembling them into a character that fits my concept. D&D has dozens of weapon and item enchantments, and in certain games you have free reighn to select which you want to use. There are a few staples that people choose because they are very useful. A fighter will get a strength bonus item. However, people are still using a wide range of different items.
COD is another example of this concept. I'm not extremely familiar with this game, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you get to select perks as you progress which give you different abilities. you can only have a limited set of these abilities active at a given time. This is the same idea as having a weapon with certain set of bonuseses on it. People don't all run around with the same set of perks. If they do, those perks are too powerful and should be scaled back. Every option should be equally viable, and the choice player preference, not picking out which is the right option.
Being able to select your enchantment does not make everyone pick the same thing. If they are, the enchantments are unbalanced and need to be fixed. They should be an oppurtunity to mold the game to your playstyle.
COD is another example of this concept. I'm not extremely familiar with this game, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you get to select perks as you progress which give you different abilities.
Theoretically this would be a good example, but in practice COD's perks are largely horribly unbalanced, haha.
Fallout 1&2 would have better examples of perk systems that are balanced and provide choice without being random.
As I've said, I don't agree with notch because he is notch. I agree with notch because he is normally right. Based on his track record I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has some brilliant way of implementing this that will undermine my expectations, as he did with hunger. However, I do not like what I have heard so far.
I hope the game dosent become TOO magic based. in all honesty im fine with RPG elements, and potions, the enchantment table i think im starting to hit my limit with the magic stuff.
and i hope skillpoints are used for buffs like better combat instead of just for spells
Oh well, I at least like how the enchanting tables look like. And I prefer the crafting recipe by wintermuet.
Other possibilities might be adding some complexity to the random system. Enchantments still just cost XP and use the enchanting table, but the more you use it, the more likely you'll pull off higher tier enchantments.
Because you sir, are not an adventurous individual that's why.
Good point.
I understand that it is reminencent of random loot drops in RPGs, but the ynamic is different. For one, even a useless drop can generally be sold. When the dragon drops teh tanfas and might and you are using a boradsword, you take it to the shop and sell it, and use the gold to get something you do want. Maybe villagers will be willing to buy your rejected weapons, which would help with that aspect, but you still mined for diamonds, made a sword, spent xp crafting it, and got a dud.
Also, you don't have to expend your resources to get loot drops in RPGs. You have to fight and earn it, yes, but the random loot is part of the reward for killing the monster. You get experience, gold, and random loot. Some of the random loot is used as-is, and most is converted into gold. You also kill a series of monsters and get a lot of potential loot, so the random chance of getting a good item is iterated over time, and failures don't matter. With enchanting, you get one shot, expend resources, and so if it fails to give you a good result, you have just wasted your resoures.
Additionally, no RPG I know of has a random result for enchanting an item. Enchanting an item yourself is typically how you get precisely the item you want, avoiding the random chance.
Especially since notch has mentioned tiers. unless each power simply has 3 power levels, that means you get multiple effects on one weapon. So even if you are fortunate enough to get an enchantment that you want, the chance that the second is also desired is lower, and if it messes up, you have to repeat the process to get your level 1 sword again to try to enchant it to level 3. Sure, thelevel 2 version of your good sword is still going to be better than your level 1 good sword, so its not goign to ruin it... just ruin its candedency for advancement.
I've always felt that magic items like this should be less about having the best wepeon, but instead having the best weapon for your playstyle. Hence, being able to customize your things to do what you want is important.
But maybe I am just approaching this from the wrong direction and trying to do the wrong thing with the system. I don't know. Its certainly not what I would have designed.
Also, I like the idea of using the experience for this. Maybe the experience is just used as a Shadowrun style karma bar that can be blown away for special effects of various kinds, enchantments being one of them.
Diablo II had it in a limited extent (Charsi making a rare item), and Torchlight uses random enchants as a core mechanic.
On the flip side, in Torchlight, most any enchant is 'good' (if not ideal) and the resource to enchant (gold) falls out of the freaking sky.
Personally I'm just interested in the Cauldron being used to make beer from wheat. Enchantments? Just a decoration for my library :wink.gif:
Yeah...I'm kind of worried about the system being weird and chaotic, but I'll have to know more about how it will actually work to really judge it.
Makes me uneasy for the future of minecraft....
Just, we're not going to get 'super runes' or whatever the mod was. Would be nice if magic was not just unpredictable, but had an element that suggested it was somewhat unsavory as well.
It makes sense to me, that you would need some rare ore/mineral/items to craft a magical item such as an Enchanting table. I don't know how I feel about the Enchantments being random. I won't know until I have a chance to play with it. I think I am leaning on being okay with it, mostly because it's an Enchanting Table and not a Curse Table. I think that implies that whatever enchantment is done, regardless of being random, will be a positive and not a negative effect. No reason to make something out of diamonds unless it is beneficial.
Depends on the RPG. A lot of rouge-likes (which seems to be what Notch is trying to emulate here) have durable equipment, so you do in fact expend resources in order to get better stuff at the risk of getting stuff that isn't as good.
Play some more MMOs. There are quite a few with variable and randomly determined enchanting systems.
I don't see a problem with that. The alternative is that it's really easy to get exactly what you want, everybody on servers are using the same equipment, and everything just feels bland and generic. A completely predictable system is no different from what we have now. Why bother with enchanting at all in that case? Why not just craft different materials into better weapons, armor and tools?
Getting exactly what you want right from the start reduces variety and eliminates the need for any sort of tier system. Why apply any enchantments until you get the best ones? Making the system predictable just makes any lower tier or less useful enchantments totally worthless. Not being able to get exactly what you want every time encourages you to keep trying for something better. Some configurations are harder to come by than others, so you use a lower level item until you can get something better.
Oh yeah, I forgot rogue-likes. Enchanting in NetHack, for example, was very iffy. Beyond a certain strength, weapons had a chance of simply dissolving...and scrolls of enchant weapon were quite rare.
I think the idea of powerful enchants paired with a very random system, however, isn't a very common idea in video games, though. It's a strange conflation of events.
you are still progressing through the game. That mechanic encourages you to continue on and fight bigger enemies, who presumably will drop better loot, instead of lounging around the area you are at using up resources in the hopes of dropping a better item. With all of the rouge-likes I've played, you have to balance the drive to go forward and take on bigger challenges and get better stuff with hanging around and trying to grind up for an advantage. The game is actively discouraging grinding for the perfect weapon. You fight a samuri who has a good chance of droppping a cool sword, and yo uare still gaining experience, gaining loot, and progressing forward. You don't gather resources, go to enchant an item, and have it be a dud, setting you back however long it took you to gather that stuff.
I do not hold MMOs as evidence of good design. The entire motive around their design is gettign you to play longer. The longer you are playing, the more subscription fees you pay, the more profit they get. This is not a breeding ground for excellent gameplay. Hence, they have mechanics that force you to grind for what you want. That is awful, its sole purpose is to inflate your game time.
Also, as much as nethack has going for it, I don't see it being a shining example of game design. Don't get me wrong, it does a lot of things very right. The big reason I stopped playing is that your success was highly, highly dependant on luck. You go to a fountain and drink. If you are lucky, you get attribute bonuses, get a wish granted, or some cool effect. Unlcuky, a powerful demon arrives and squishes you. If you find an amulet of reflection you are set. If you don't, you will probably be killed. There is a lot of depth in strategy and tactics, but even pefect execution fails if chance doesn't shine on you. You are constantly faced with choices that boil down to "if this fails, it is going to kill you and you have to sstart over. If it works, it will grant a much-needed advantage". And when that is constantly present, it will fail eventually.
Only if a certain set of equipment is better. The key is to make them different, so different people will tend to use different things. RPGs offer a wide variety of classes, and people play different ones because it fits their style. And if certain sets of equipment are better, than having certain characters get it based purely on luck is not good balance.
one person gets the sword of god on his first try. Another fails to get it after 100 tries. taht is an awful tier progression mechanic. Random progression through tiers is aweful. If you can get what you need, the cost of an individual crafing can be higher. You can have it so you need a lower tier item to craft the next higher tier, enforcing a progression through the ranks. And increasing cost for each tier makes transitioning between them non-trivial. You go out, use the weapon for a while, gain experience, and then use it to upgrade to the next level. And since it does take experience, it is quite possible that uprading the sword will drop you several levels, making it something you might want to hold off on. You take the xp hit now, and have a semi-permement item, and continue leveling up again.
I'm a big fan of character customization. I love pouring over options and assembling them into a character that fits my concept. D&D has dozens of weapon and item enchantments, and in certain games you have free reighn to select which you want to use. There are a few staples that people choose because they are very useful. A fighter will get a strength bonus item. However, people are still using a wide range of different items.
COD is another example of this concept. I'm not extremely familiar with this game, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you get to select perks as you progress which give you different abilities. you can only have a limited set of these abilities active at a given time. This is the same idea as having a weapon with certain set of bonuseses on it. People don't all run around with the same set of perks. If they do, those perks are too powerful and should be scaled back. Every option should be equally viable, and the choice player preference, not picking out which is the right option.
Being able to select your enchantment does not make everyone pick the same thing. If they are, the enchantments are unbalanced and need to be fixed. They should be an oppurtunity to mold the game to your playstyle.
Theoretically this would be a good example, but in practice COD's perks are largely horribly unbalanced, haha.
Fallout 1&2 would have better examples of perk systems that are balanced and provide choice without being random.
Welp, that's it. World's over. 2012 is near.
As I've said, I don't agree with notch because he is notch. I agree with notch because he is normally right. Based on his track record I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has some brilliant way of implementing this that will undermine my expectations, as he did with hunger. However, I do not like what I have heard so far.
and i hope skillpoints are used for buffs like better combat instead of just for spells