*edit* 1. It works on armor and swords (both really useful).
2. Provides a minor bonus to other tools (but still a bonus).
3. It un-clutters your broken tool storage area (I always left my nearly dead tools in a box because they weren't worth taking with me).
4. It is going to be used to repair enchanted and unique equipment most likely (notch just implied this, and a year ago he discussed adding prefixes and suffixes to equipment sorta like diablo style stuff).
In any case, I now think it is mostly fine because of its breadth of use. I will leave the original math though because it's still accurate. :3
Notch tweeted that
"What it means? It means we can do item enchantments, item naming, more than "just" 65k possible maps per level, and all sorts of "
Which means that all the reasons I gave for including item repairs are now possible :smile.gif: Game design theory has predictive powers, who knew. See, Notch does operate on sensible principles. The plan is not always apparent from any given state of development,
This alone makes the feature awesome, after all if your pick breaks you just make another one. If your armour breaks though it probably means you were fighting and are now in trouble. Keeping armour in good condition is really important.
But if you have two fairly used up [insert tool here] and you combine them...you get a tool with both percent durability added with a 20% bonus of durability. Meaning that two 40% durability tools get you a new one and ultimately more uses.
Wait so let me get this straight, if I use two pickaxes for 60% of their durability (leaving them at 40% each), while paying close attention to this percentage the entire time (annoying, but I can live with it), then I may combine them into an extra pickaxe?
end result: If used to exactly 40% without fail (a tough guess) you get--
# of pickaxes VS net bonus durability for each pickaxe
-----------------------------------------------------
2 pickaxes = 10%
4 pickaxes = 15%
8 pickaxes = 17.5%
16 pickaxes = 18.75%
I am unimpressed with these figures.
1. Stone and iron arent worth repairing because of how common they are.
2. Repairing wood is absurd.
3. The bonus to diamond is so small due to their rarity that the bonus can't even be maximized by quantity, with an end result of actually tricking me into only using part of a diamond pickaxe so i can use it to combine later, ultimately making me unlikely to use them all the way under the pretense that I MIGHT find diamond again soon (not usually likely).
Okay here is my math if you wanna check it~
I used 60% of one pickaxe. Then 60% of a second pickaxe. That's 1.2 total pickaxes used.
I then combine them to create a third pickaxe. I use the third pickaxe completely, giving me a total net usage of 2.2 pickaxes, or 110% (a 10% bonus to durability) for a significant amount of attention paid to make sure I dont overuse my pickaxes? This is all assuming I can guess exactly where 40% is on the durability, as the bonus is diminished for each fraction I am from my accuracy guess.
This does not feel like much of a bonus at all :/
Thats an awfully large amount of micromanagement for a simple 10% net bonus to each pickaxes starting durability as an end result. It is much too weak. I would more than likely just ignore this and burn through my pickaxes quickly while thinking about other more pressing concerns like what I am going to do next and the stat of my farm and how I plan to arrange the tunnel I am digging, actually SAVING time in the long run O_o.
Just to make sure I am not missing something here, ill crunch some more number.
I use 4 pickaxes down to 40%. Thats .6 pickaxe usages per, or a net of 2.4 total pickaxe usages. I combine these into two brand new pickaxes and use each of these .6 as well. that is now 3.6.
I combine them for a final full pickaxe. This is now a total 4.6 pickaxes used.
With 4 pickaxes I get a net bonus of .6 pickaxes, or roughly a 15 % bonus. So the increase seems to grow.
So for maximum usage, pickaxes must be gathered in powers of 2 for full breakdown during the journey and maximum efficieny. this is 2, 4, 8, 16, etc
16 pickaxes.
all pickaxes are always used to 40%, as a rule, for maximum efficiency.
So we have 9.6 + 4.8 + 2.4 + 1.2 + 1 (for the final full pickaxe)
So out of 16 pickaxes you get: 19 uses.
and 8 pickaxes is 9.4 uses
19/16 = 1.1875, or a net increase in durability of 18.75 percent per pickaxe if EVERY pickaxe is used to EXACTLY 40% without a single error in caluclation.
So as you carry more pickaxes, the percentage of efficiency goes higher, but there are diminishing returns in the value gained over time while repairing. The efficiency grows at a quickly falling curve as you carry more. The more pickaxes you carry, the better the bonus is, but the bonus is so small, and it tapers off so fast, that going in with 16 is BARELY more efficient than going in with 8, and it also takes a lot more room.
*edit*
And an alternate argument based on similar math with a practical usage explanation:
I personally find the system quite practical. Remembering that you can iterate repairs rather than stockpiling an inventory full of tools to get good results. For example, if I'm mining, I often carry 5 pickaxes. Usually 4x Stone with 1x Iron for minerals.
Using 4 Stone Pickaxes, I can mine 1004 blocks, or make 502 blocks of progress in a Steve-sized tunnel. This assumes I spend ever block and never use other tools. With repairs available, I can switch out my first tool after mining 79 blocks, or every 39 meters along the way. When my second pickaxe has mined 79 blocks, I combine the two for R1, a new 100% pickaxe, and use it for 79 blocks. I still have two untouched stone pickaxes, and have spent 1.8 total pickaxes at this point. I now switch to my third pickaxe, spending 79 more blocks, with a total 2.4 pickaxes spent I repair R1 with 3 to make R2. 60% of that brings me to 3 pickaxes used (at a cost of 9 stone and 6 sticks thus far), I then use 4 for 60%, 3.6 used, then repair and use all of R3. This gives me 60% of an extra pickaxe of distance, an extra 78 blocks/39 meters of digging before I have to stop.
While there are diminishing returns the more you repair, the overall benefit is still worthwhile as long as you don't repair too early. Anywhere between 30 and 50% is viable, though ideally you should repair between 30-40% -- however I also think that as a fixed +20% on top of the two tools' remaining durability (I think this is how it works, though I may be wrong), 40% or lower is all equally viable in terms of the benefit. This is especially true since 100% tools aren't better than 5% tools at what they do except in terms of how much longer they can do it for.
I actually agree with you, and if you allow me, i shall resume your article: The repair system is almost useless, as it is so little rewarding that it isn't missed.
I am a stout defender of Notch on this forum in almost all cases, because I like his ideas and he often thinks very much like I do, but this is one of his worst ideas to date (besides leaving torches infinite) and I can not defend him here.
"There's currently a 20% remaining uses bonus when repairing, but it doesn't work well as it encourages you to repair at exactly 40% damage." So yes at 60% remaining.
--edit--
Never mind "Err, I meant 60% damage, not 40%. AAaaaanyway. #mathishard"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Its not flaming when its true, I should be able to speak my mind on my own thread, warn status 10%? Thats just a badge of honor.
Actually, even with 312 extra uses, it may not be worth it with diamond pickaxes. Diamonds are usually so rare, you would spend your diamonds on other tools before you would spend them on another pickaxe, when you already have one. Like a diamond sword. It would be more worthwhile with iron pickaxes, but then the bonus would only be 50 extra uses. Maybe Wintermuet is right, and repairs really are negligible.
But you don't need to carry all of the pickaxes from the start. You can add new picks into the cycle as time goes on. Over time, you have a ~20% extra use from you picks. You don't need to carry 16 picks. You carry 5, for instance. Use up one 60%, use up a second 60%, make a new pick. You new have 4 picks. Use up one 60%, another 60%, make a new pick, you have 3. Etc. You get to the point you have 1 pick at 40%. You then return, and grab a new batch of pickaxes.
so out of 16 diamond picks, you get 19 diamond pick uses. thats about 45,000 extra blocks you can mine. If that is iron, that is still 750 extra blocks. For free. You have saves 9 of your resources, more than enough for a breastplate.
How much do you want it to give? Double? The bonus is there to make it more beneficial to repair items than simply using it up. It does that. Things like sowrds and armour benefit from being repaired more than runnning out. It is much better to use 2 sets of armour 60% and swap them out, tehn repair them, than it is to run out of armour mid-combat.
In most games, a 10-20% boost is considered very significant. It is more efficient to mine with repairing than without. Lets say you are mining with diamond. 2 picks, a 10% boost gives you abotu 300 free blocks of mining. That is worth more than an iron pick, and it mines faster too. This extra income means you get that many more resources for less overhead. Going back to my math on mining, a single diamond pick will yeild 7.5 diamonds over its lifetime (on average), if used efficiently. 2 will therfor yeild 15 diamonds. With the 6 diamodns of cost factored in, you are getting 9 diamonds profit. A 10% increase in durability means 10% more diamonds, so 1.5 extra diamonds in return. This is a 10.5 diamond profit over 2 picks now. This is a 17% increase in returns, just from 2 picks.
Now say we are using the 16 picks. Those picks will normally yeild 120 diamonds, and cost 48. an 18.75 increase in diamonds mined means 142.5 diamonds mined, for a profit of 94.5. The normal return is 72. That isa 31.25% increase in profits! You have almost netted a free set of diamond armour!
And you don't need 16 diamond picks to start this. You can bring 2, mine them down, combine them, mine it down, and get 1.8 picks of use out of 2 slots, which will be more stone than you can carry. Out of that profit, you cna make a new pick, mine with it, adncombine it into the old pick, and sustain the process.
In terms of profits over time, you use up a single pick in roughly 7.8 minutes, so lets cal it 8 minutes. That is 7.5 picks per hour, so 2 hours yeild 15 picks, roughly the same efficieny increase as the 16. that 18.5% increase in durabilty means an extra 22.2 minutes of mining for no additional cost. This means you have 142 minutes of mining, which will gross 133.3 diamonds, cost 45, and net 88 diamonds. This is .61 diamonds per minute, or 37 diamonds per hour, compared to thte normal 34. This is a 9% increase in diamond profits per hour.
If these resources are so cheap that you don't care about these increases, then why do you care about their mining effiency at all?
And as for the "you need to keep it at 40% for maximum efficency, what a pain", lets asume you are lax adn will let it fall between 30-40%. with 30%, you get 2 picks at 70%, and a new pick with 30+30+15=75, so .7 + .7 + .75 for a total of 2.1picks total. The 40% is 60+60+40=100, so .6+.6+1 = 2.2 picks. While erring towards 40% is beneficial, slipping by 10% still gives a fair saving. on a diamond pick, that is 150 blocks of tolerance.
I can't help but feel that this combine-to-repair system is so horribly illogical, that it must have been chosen because it can be implemented during a coffee break.
Why not have proper blacksmith tools and anvils that you can craft and use? Or maybe have blacksmith tools drop from bosses in strongholds?
I realize that they are free to implement any feature in any way that they see fit. It just troubles me that a new feature that opens up possibilities to add other "real" new features is squandered in this way.
I can't help but feel that this combine-to-repair system is so horribly illogical, that it must have been chosen because it can be implemented during a coffee break.
Why not have proper blacksmith tools and anvils that you can craft and use? Or maybe have blacksmith tools drop from bosses in strongholds?
I realize that they are free to implement any feature in any way that they see fit. It just troubles me that a new feature that opens up possibilities to add other "real" new features is squandered in this way.
"Originally, I wanted to have a repair table, but it's too annoying and you end up hoarding damaged items."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Its not flaming when its true, I should be able to speak my mind on my own thread, warn status 10%? Thats just a badge of honor.
I am a stout defender of Notch on this forum in almost all cases, because I like his ideas and he often thinks very much like I do, but this is one of his worst ideas to date (besides leaving torches infinite) and I can not defend him here.
This will be a mistake if it is not changed.
I'm hoping its more of a proof-of-concept for allowing dynamic craft results (rather than set X + Y = Z recipients). If this is the final system, I'll be pretty disappointed.
I can't help but feel that this combine-to-repair system is so horribly illogical, that it must have been chosen because it can be implemented during a coffee break.
Why not have proper blacksmith tools and anvils that you can craft and use? Or maybe have blacksmith tools drop from bosses in strongholds?
I realize that they are free to implement any feature in any way that they see fit. It just troubles me that a new feature that opens up possibilities to add other "real" new features is squandered in this way.
His initial design was to have crafting tables. However, this resulted in a dynamic that encouraged you to carry around piled of half-broken tools. He didn't like that, so he changed it.
Yeah this repairing system is extremely lame. They need to change it to be more like certain fan-created systems, where there is a 'repair bench' type workstation of some description, and you use units of the resource the tool is crafted from to repair it (i.e., individual diamonds are used to repair diamond pickaxes by a certain amount, etc.).
This system makes a lot more sense any way you look at it, with the added bonus of giving us a new workstation item to place in our 'workshop' rooms, as they're usually a bit empty looking now (just workbench and furnace, unless you combine workshop and storage together into a single room).
Yeah this repairing system is extremely lame. They need to change it to be more like certain fan-created systems, where there is a 'repair bench' type workstation of some description, and you use units of the resource the tool is crafted from to repair it (i.e., individual diamonds are used to repair diamond pickaxes by a certain amount, etc.).
This system makes a lot more sense any way you look at it, with the added bonus of giving us a new workstation item to place in our 'workshop' rooms, as they're usually a bit empty looking now (just workbench and furnace, unless you combine workshop and storage together into a single room).
It doesn't make more sense. The only tools you'd repair are diamond tools, and there is no need for diamond tools other than obsidian harvesting. While I like the idea conceptually, it simply wouldn't work gameplay-wise.
1. It works on armor and swords (both really useful).
2. Provides a minor bonus to other tools (but still a bonus).
3. It un-clutters your broken tool storage area (I always left my nearly dead tools in a box because they weren't worth taking with me).
4. It is going to be used to repair enchanted and unique equipment most likely (notch just implied this, and a year ago he discussed adding prefixes and suffixes to equipment sorta like diablo style stuff).
In any case, I now think it is mostly fine because of its breadth of use. I will leave the original math though because it's still accurate. :3
Sources:
Original post:
Wait so let me get this straight, if I use two pickaxes for 60% of their durability (leaving them at 40% each), while paying close attention to this percentage the entire time (annoying, but I can live with it), then I may combine them into an extra pickaxe?
end result: If used to exactly 40% without fail (a tough guess) you get--
# of pickaxes VS net bonus durability for each pickaxe
-----------------------------------------------------
2 pickaxes = 10%
4 pickaxes = 15%
8 pickaxes = 17.5%
16 pickaxes = 18.75%
I am unimpressed with these figures.
1. Stone and iron arent worth repairing because of how common they are.
2. Repairing wood is absurd.
3. The bonus to diamond is so small due to their rarity that the bonus can't even be maximized by quantity, with an end result of actually tricking me into only using part of a diamond pickaxe so i can use it to combine later, ultimately making me unlikely to use them all the way under the pretense that I MIGHT find diamond again soon (not usually likely).
Okay here is my math if you wanna check it~
I used 60% of one pickaxe. Then 60% of a second pickaxe. That's 1.2 total pickaxes used.
I then combine them to create a third pickaxe. I use the third pickaxe completely, giving me a total net usage of 2.2 pickaxes, or 110% (a 10% bonus to durability) for a significant amount of attention paid to make sure I dont overuse my pickaxes? This is all assuming I can guess exactly where 40% is on the durability, as the bonus is diminished for each fraction I am from my accuracy guess.
This does not feel like much of a bonus at all :/
Thats an awfully large amount of micromanagement for a simple 10% net bonus to each pickaxes starting durability as an end result. It is much too weak. I would more than likely just ignore this and burn through my pickaxes quickly while thinking about other more pressing concerns like what I am going to do next and the stat of my farm and how I plan to arrange the tunnel I am digging, actually SAVING time in the long run O_o.
Just to make sure I am not missing something here, ill crunch some more number.
I use 4 pickaxes down to 40%. Thats .6 pickaxe usages per, or a net of 2.4 total pickaxe usages. I combine these into two brand new pickaxes and use each of these .6 as well. that is now 3.6.
I combine them for a final full pickaxe. This is now a total 4.6 pickaxes used.
With 4 pickaxes I get a net bonus of .6 pickaxes, or roughly a 15 % bonus. So the increase seems to grow.
So for maximum usage, pickaxes must be gathered in powers of 2 for full breakdown during the journey and maximum efficieny. this is 2, 4, 8, 16, etc
16 pickaxes.
all pickaxes are always used to 40%, as a rule, for maximum efficiency.
.6 * 16 = 9.6
.6 * 8 = 4.8
.6 * 4 = 2.4
.6 * 2 = 1.2
So we have 9.6 + 4.8 + 2.4 + 1.2 + 1 (for the final full pickaxe)
So out of 16 pickaxes you get: 19 uses.
and 8 pickaxes is 9.4 uses
19/16 = 1.1875, or a net increase in durability of 18.75 percent per pickaxe if EVERY pickaxe is used to EXACTLY 40% without a single error in caluclation.
So as you carry more pickaxes, the percentage of efficiency goes higher, but there are diminishing returns in the value gained over time while repairing. The efficiency grows at a quickly falling curve as you carry more. The more pickaxes you carry, the better the bonus is, but the bonus is so small, and it tapers off so fast, that going in with 16 is BARELY more efficient than going in with 8, and it also takes a lot more room.
*edit*
And an alternate argument based on similar math with a practical usage explanation:
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/123343045/my-vision-for-survival (follow this link if you need proof)
I am a stout defender of Notch on this forum in almost all cases, because I like his ideas and he often thinks very much like I do, but this is one of his worst ideas to date (besides leaving torches infinite) and I can not defend him here.
This will be a mistake if it is not changed.
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/123343045/my-vision-for-survival (follow this link if you need proof)
given the way the math works, you get a new one at roughly 23%. thats kind of useless.
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/123343045/my-vision-for-survival (follow this link if you need proof)
60% missing or 60% remaining?
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/123343045/my-vision-for-survival (follow this link if you need proof)
20% of 1562 uses, is 312 more, plus a conserved inven space.
That seems good to me.
EDIT: Kurosu, he can't have meant 60% remaining.
60% plus 60% is already over 100%.
--edit--
Never mind "Err, I meant 60% damage, not 40%. AAaaaanyway. #mathishard"
so out of 16 diamond picks, you get 19 diamond pick uses. thats about 45,000 extra blocks you can mine. If that is iron, that is still 750 extra blocks. For free. You have saves 9 of your resources, more than enough for a breastplate.
How much do you want it to give? Double? The bonus is there to make it more beneficial to repair items than simply using it up. It does that. Things like sowrds and armour benefit from being repaired more than runnning out. It is much better to use 2 sets of armour 60% and swap them out, tehn repair them, than it is to run out of armour mid-combat.
In most games, a 10-20% boost is considered very significant. It is more efficient to mine with repairing than without. Lets say you are mining with diamond. 2 picks, a 10% boost gives you abotu 300 free blocks of mining. That is worth more than an iron pick, and it mines faster too. This extra income means you get that many more resources for less overhead.
Going back to my math on mining, a single diamond pick will yeild 7.5 diamonds over its lifetime (on average), if used efficiently. 2 will therfor yeild 15 diamonds. With the 6 diamodns of cost factored in, you are getting 9 diamonds profit. A 10% increase in durability means 10% more diamonds, so 1.5 extra diamonds in return. This is a 10.5 diamond profit over 2 picks now. This is a 17% increase in returns, just from 2 picks.
Now say we are using the 16 picks. Those picks will normally yeild 120 diamonds, and cost 48. an 18.75 increase in diamonds mined means 142.5 diamonds mined, for a profit of 94.5. The normal return is 72. That isa 31.25% increase in profits! You have almost netted a free set of diamond armour!
And you don't need 16 diamond picks to start this. You can bring 2, mine them down, combine them, mine it down, and get 1.8 picks of use out of 2 slots, which will be more stone than you can carry. Out of that profit, you cna make a new pick, mine with it, adncombine it into the old pick, and sustain the process.
In terms of profits over time, you use up a single pick in roughly 7.8 minutes, so lets cal it 8 minutes. That is 7.5 picks per hour, so 2 hours yeild 15 picks, roughly the same efficieny increase as the 16. that 18.5% increase in durabilty means an extra 22.2 minutes of mining for no additional cost. This means you have 142 minutes of mining, which will gross 133.3 diamonds, cost 45, and net 88 diamonds. This is .61 diamonds per minute, or 37 diamonds per hour, compared to thte normal 34. This is a 9% increase in diamond profits per hour.
If these resources are so cheap that you don't care about these increases, then why do you care about their mining effiency at all?
And as for the "you need to keep it at 40% for maximum efficency, what a pain", lets asume you are lax adn will let it fall between 30-40%. with 30%, you get 2 picks at 70%, and a new pick with 30+30+15=75, so .7 + .7 + .75 for a total of 2.1picks total. The 40% is 60+60+40=100, so .6+.6+1 = 2.2 picks. While erring towards 40% is beneficial, slipping by 10% still gives a fair saving. on a diamond pick, that is 150 blocks of tolerance.
Why not have proper blacksmith tools and anvils that you can craft and use? Or maybe have blacksmith tools drop from bosses in strongholds?
I realize that they are free to implement any feature in any way that they see fit. It just troubles me that a new feature that opens up possibilities to add other "real" new features is squandered in this way.
"Originally, I wanted to have a repair table, but it's too annoying and you end up hoarding damaged items."
I'm hoping its more of a proof-of-concept for allowing dynamic craft results (rather than set X + Y = Z recipients). If this is the final system, I'll be pretty disappointed.
Why would you hoard damaged items if they can be repaired and then used again? I'm probably missing something.
His initial design was to have crafting tables. However, this resulted in a dynamic that encouraged you to carry around piled of half-broken tools. He didn't like that, so he changed it.
This system makes a lot more sense any way you look at it, with the added bonus of giving us a new workstation item to place in our 'workshop' rooms, as they're usually a bit empty looking now (just workbench and furnace, unless you combine workshop and storage together into a single room).
It doesn't make more sense. The only tools you'd repair are diamond tools, and there is no need for diamond tools other than obsidian harvesting. While I like the idea conceptually, it simply wouldn't work gameplay-wise.