Wow.... I wonder how big the average multiplayer server will be...
Well, that's if the whole map is explored. Any server would start off with a very small map size, which grows as players spread out beyond the spawn area. I guess if the players really took it upon themselves to break a server, they could just each travel in one direction, increasing the map size until the server owner can't store it any more. That's not really practical, though.
I guess if the players really took it upon themselves to break a server, they could just each travel in one direction, increasing the map size until the server owner can't store it any more. That's not really practical, though.
You'd be surprised how far people will go in the quest to grief. The moment I saw Notch's 4.7GB world listed on the blog, I started wondering how long it would take a griefer with a speedhack noclip script to reach that amount of space. This also brought up another question: Notch says it writes changes to disk the moment you make them, but does a chunk get saved at all if you just pass through it without modifying it? Does entering a chunk make it permanent or do you have to do something to it first?
Of course, the entire griefing problem goes away if Notch simply allows an upper bound for map filesize in the server preferences. This would allow me to set my "infinite" server to cap out at, say, 10GB, which is more than enough for legitimate play, and wouldn't affect me if someone griefed to fill the entire space; I probably would never even notice.
Hmm... I think I'll email him now with the "upper bound" suggestion. Yes, it would take some rather dedicated effort to grief, but all the client needs to do is start requesting new map chunks at an incredible rate (which a speedhack script will inevitably find a way to perform) to very rapidly fill a drive.
I'm hoping for a max filesize option even for single player games, because I would rather have my map be ultimately square, than some sort of spidery looking thing that crashes due to lack of HD space all the time :smile.gif:
Notch could make it so that the map doesn't request any more chunks unless you're moving below a certain speed. Being attacked by a monster makes you go a little bit faster than when walking, so maybe the bar could be raised to around that speed, so that unrealisticly fast speeds are ignored.
Well, 'Thwart hacking!' is the top priority on his TODO list, and he's mentioned fixes for speedhacking before, so I don't anticipate it being an issue.
As for chunks only being saved if you modify, I don't think that'd be how it worked. If you walk somewhere, see a big mountain, walk a long way away, then come back, you're going to want that mountain to still be there. So, I think simply entering a new map block will save the whole thing to memory.
Still, limits on filesize is certainly a very good idea. Sometimes you just don't need 8 times the surface area of the Earth. :tongue.gif:
Well, 'Thwart hacking!' is the top priority on his TODO list, and he's mentioned fixes for speedhacking before, so I don't anticipate it being an issue.
Thwarting hackers is not a one-time fix; any multiplayer game developer, from indie games up through the likes of Valve and Blizzard, can tell you it's a never-ending game of leapfrog. Still, on the scale of hacks, speedhacking and noclip is fairly boring; "potential to crash not just the game server but the entire host computer," on the other hand, is very, very interesting and would increase the evolution speed of hacks-patches exponentially.
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As for chunks only being saved if you modify, I don't think that'd be how it worked. If you walk somewhere, see a big mountain, walk a long way away, then come back, you're going to want that mountain to still be there. So, I think simply entering a new map block will save the whole thing to memory.
Not necessarily; the world is likely procedurally generated based on a single seed, which means that entering a particular map block would generate the terrain identically every time. It would only need to be saved if you modified its contents in some way, like breaking or building a block. (That also brings up the potential to share seeds for particularly cool worlds, ala Dwarf Fortress.)
I think maps should be limited with the option of being able to increase. Running out of space? Just get the server owner to increase the size possible by x number of blocks in each direction.
Thwarting hackers is not a one-time fix; any multiplayer game developer, from indie games up through the likes of Valve and Blizzard, can tell you it's a never-ending game of leapfrog.
Of course. The people trying to do illicit things are always going to be one step ahead of developers, but Notch seems to take it seriously enough that I think any exploits will be patched up relatively quickly. One can only hope, at least.
The world is likely procedurally generated based on a single seed, which means that entering a particular map block would generate the terrain identically every time.
That's a very good point; I hadn't thought of it. However, I think most systems that use seeds have some element of randomness as well. At least in DF, I know from experience that identical seeds will generate very similar maps, but there are almost always small-to-medium differences. Still, this does seem like a better mechanism than auto-saving everything.
Hopefully Notch will put a failsafe in the server that terminates the program if the map grows to large too fast, or is consuming too much of the host's memory.
HOWEVEEEEER, I have a spare 500GB volume to work with, so I might just run an Infinite server :biggrin.gif:
hah.
Well, that's if the whole map is explored. Any server would start off with a very small map size, which grows as players spread out beyond the spawn area. I guess if the players really took it upon themselves to break a server, they could just each travel in one direction, increasing the map size until the server owner can't store it any more. That's not really practical, though.
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Well, at least they're funny about it. "[FAP] the day away without guilt."
You'd be surprised how far people will go in the quest to grief. The moment I saw Notch's 4.7GB world listed on the blog, I started wondering how long it would take a griefer with a speedhack noclip script to reach that amount of space. This also brought up another question: Notch says it writes changes to disk the moment you make them, but does a chunk get saved at all if you just pass through it without modifying it? Does entering a chunk make it permanent or do you have to do something to it first?
Of course, the entire griefing problem goes away if Notch simply allows an upper bound for map filesize in the server preferences. This would allow me to set my "infinite" server to cap out at, say, 10GB, which is more than enough for legitimate play, and wouldn't affect me if someone griefed to fill the entire space; I probably would never even notice.
Hmm... I think I'll email him now with the "upper bound" suggestion. Yes, it would take some rather dedicated effort to grief, but all the client needs to do is start requesting new map chunks at an incredible rate (which a speedhack script will inevitably find a way to perform) to very rapidly fill a drive.
Notch could make it so that the map doesn't request any more chunks unless you're moving below a certain speed. Being attacked by a monster makes you go a little bit faster than when walking, so maybe the bar could be raised to around that speed, so that unrealisticly fast speeds are ignored.
As for chunks only being saved if you modify, I don't think that'd be how it worked. If you walk somewhere, see a big mountain, walk a long way away, then come back, you're going to want that mountain to still be there. So, I think simply entering a new map block will save the whole thing to memory.
Still, limits on filesize is certainly a very good idea. Sometimes you just don't need 8 times the surface area of the Earth. :tongue.gif:
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- spherical maps (diameter or radius X chunks long)
- cube/rectangular maps (X chunks by Y chunks)
Then have it tell us that the potential maximum filesize is X MB.
Thwarting hackers is not a one-time fix; any multiplayer game developer, from indie games up through the likes of Valve and Blizzard, can tell you it's a never-ending game of leapfrog. Still, on the scale of hacks, speedhacking and noclip is fairly boring; "potential to crash not just the game server but the entire host computer," on the other hand, is very, very interesting and would increase the evolution speed of hacks-patches exponentially.
Not necessarily; the world is likely procedurally generated based on a single seed, which means that entering a particular map block would generate the terrain identically every time. It would only need to be saved if you modified its contents in some way, like breaking or building a block. (That also brings up the potential to share seeds for particularly cool worlds, ala Dwarf Fortress.)
Of course. The people trying to do illicit things are always going to be one step ahead of developers, but Notch seems to take it seriously enough that I think any exploits will be patched up relatively quickly. One can only hope, at least.
That's a very good point; I hadn't thought of it. However, I think most systems that use seeds have some element of randomness as well. At least in DF, I know from experience that identical seeds will generate very similar maps, but there are almost always small-to-medium differences. Still, this does seem like a better mechanism than auto-saving everything.
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I defo will not be able to run an infini server.
I don't have many GB's to work with. :/
-Stephen Fry
HOWEVEEEEER, I have a spare 500GB volume to work with, so I might just run an Infinite server :biggrin.gif: