Perhaps the best way for this to be resolved, besides the game auto-excavating a small area for a portal if need be, is that whenever you light a portal, the game checks to see if a portal can be made at those exact coordinates in the other realm. If not, the fire simply dies out, while if it can be, the actual portal is created. This will eradicate all problems.
Another suggestion was to add the frame underground, or in a lava lake or something, and have the portal then make a 'safe portal' as normal.
I think that the theory of makeing a new portal in a safe spot is right but i also think you guys aremissing something else to the problem. I have 4 portals in the normal world from just building the one , so thats an extra 3. I think that part of the problem is also that the portal is 2 blocks wide, is it not true that one block space = more block space change in normal so it could be that aswell and it seem that as long as you go throught the portal and wait for it to take you to the nether you still can get a block away after passing trough so in my mind youcould get 4 to six portals back in the normal world just on where you enter
I had kind of an odd idea, but it's been defeated by the fact that portals are appearing more than 16 blocks apart. 1 block in the Nether corresponds to a 16x16 chunk in the real world. The portals are two blocks wide. My original theory was that, depending which of the two blocks that make up the hell portal, you would end up in different chunks. This is probably not what is happening, though!
When the player stands in a portal block for a few seconds, the player is taken to The Nether. The player can step out of a portal before it completes its animation to abort the teleport. A portal will also be created in the place where you enter The Nether, which you can again enter to be returned to the normal world. The purple portal blocks emit light, so passive mobs may crowd around active portals at night. Like Bedrock, portal blocks cannot be broken (although they can disappear), however they can be placed with modding.
When a portal is first created from the overworld to the Nether, there is no guarantee that using the reverse portal will send you back to the original portal. The reason for this is unknown, but is possibly related to placement issues (the Nether portal might have to be moved because it would otherwise be in solid rock/lava/etc.)
It is possible to make a portal you build on the overworld go both ways with a portal in The Nether. To do so, a new portal must be built in The Nether in a position relative to where the portal you first built is. When you travel to The Nether, and then return, you usually emerge from a different new portal somewhere near your original one. Work out the relative position of the new portal and your original, and remember that travel in hell is around 1 block = 8 blocks on Earth. This means that, at some locations on Earth, that a new portal will NOT be created, as the original one is in the "correct" spot. Build a new portal in The Nether at the appropriate location, and your original portal should now link to it both ways[1].
Portals can deactivate if there is fire adjacent to it (started by the player or Ghasts). TNT can also disable a portal, but cannot destroy the surrounding Obsidian. It is possible to "re-ignite" portals by setting the space inside the frame on fire once again.
It has been confirmed that portals do not work in multiplayer yet; while they can be created, they can not not teleport you. Server settings can be changed in order to visit The Nether in multiplayer[2].
Notch has mentioned it is extremely unlikely, but possible, for Ghasts to appear on Earth near a portal.
I have tamed the messy system. Heres the basic strategy: Make a portal A in earth, go to nether coming out portal B, go back coming out portal C. If C is near A, deactivate C by removing one square of the portal (it's just obsidian). Then go through A again, coming out B. Go back and the game will maybe send you through A if your lucky, or maby a new portal D. If so, deactivate D. Repeat, deactivating every wrong portal. Eventually, the game's nearest match will be A and you have the two way portal. Keep in mind that it is recomended to build a B' portal nearby safely underground and deactivate B to avoid ghasts, and do this immediatly for minimum carnage.
I like it the way it is. Portals are not supposed to be safe and easy, they need to be a challenge. Once it's tamed it is a safe and effective long distance travel method.
Perhaps the best way for this to be resolved, besides the game auto-excavating a small area for a portal if need be, is that whenever you light a portal, the game checks to see if a portal can be made at those exact coordinates in the other realm. If not, the fire simply dies out, while if it can be, the actual portal is created. This will eradicate all problems.
The ONLY viable solution so far that would work well in SMP.
Auto excavating is a terrible idea for smp due to griefing potential. A griefer could calculate your base's nether location and then create a few portals in the nether and they would rip apart your base in the regular world as they cleared area.
Edit: Forgot about the obvious lol
When you enter your portal and generate a new one in the Nether, the two portals should both be given a random, matching digit. When reentering that portal, it will take you to the portal on the normal world with the same digit.
create an actual connection between the portal objects is another solution.
Perhaps the best way for this to be resolved, besides the game auto-excavating a small area for a portal if need be, is that whenever you light a portal, the game checks to see if a portal can be made at those exact coordinates in the other realm. If not, the fire simply dies out, while if it can be, the actual portal is created. This will eradicate all problems.
This would be dreadful, just because it would be intensely frustrating, having to build and rebuild portals blindly, trying to find a clear area. I suspect Notch realized this.
All 4 were broken, The Netherside Portals were misplaced due to walls. the return portals were between 30 and 200 blocks away from where i wanted them.
I mined out the nearby walls and placed new Netherside Portals where they would correlate with my normal side Portal.
They all work perfectly now.
It isn't very complicated but it is annoying to have to fix each Portal manually.
Solution, force the portal into the proper spot. If portal is in a wall create a bubble of space, if over lava create a platform.
When you create a portal, the game could assign an identifier to it.. Ex, the first portal you create could be '0AA00'. Now when you walk through that portal, it assigns the same identifier to that portal, '1AA00' (The 0 or 1 at the start identifies whether it is a portal in the Core, or the surface world). Now when you walk through portal '1AA00', the game first checks to see whether a portal '0AA00' is still intact... If not, the game creates a new '0AA00'. Otherwise, it sends you to the previous '0AA00'
This will allow Notch to implement his safe-portal algorithm, while maintaining portal consistency.
Yes, that's another possibility. However, it has the potential to majorly screw up the travel ratio, the "alignment" of the Nether and the overworld, if you will, opening up possibilities for all sorts of two-way portals or weird portal-link-chains.
As I said above, a portal should categorically not be moved by the game from its intended location of appearance - I honestly don't see how anyone could disagree with that. The "identifier method" you suggested would be unnecessary if we just got rid of the entire "safe-portal" approach.
The alternative to the safe-portal approach is the clearing method, in which case space is made for the portal and the portal is placed where it should be anyhow.
If we take the clearing method, take this into consideration....
In the nether, after clearing space. (Obviously in the middle of a lake of lava.)
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
WHAT DO YOU MEAN LAVA FLOWS?
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
TELL MY MOM TO MINECRAFT A STATUE IN MY HONOR
That's my arguments against the BASIC clearing principle. (Just clear out 2-3 squares around the portal, pray for survival)
As far as ADVANCED clearing?
If portal is in a lake...
- Spawn solid ground underneath the portal.
- Destroy any lava lake around the portal or at least bring it to the same level as the portal.
- Get rid of lava spawns (possibly a hundred blocks up) which could harm player.
If portal is in the air...
- Build a mountain underneath the portal.
Besides either of these methods being taxing (that large of a change to a chunk will increase the loading screen that first time... No big deal though, we can wait a little longer), what if you had somthing built in hell? What if you have other portals? These changes to the landscape may destroy anything you've built in previous trips, not to mention they'll likely destroy the current look of hell. There's already a code in place to generate chunks in hell, these portals will create inconsistencies in hell's appearance.
Derp herp, well just make another algorithm that takes into consideration any other portals / buildings you may have in the LZ (landing zone)!
Or use the even simpler IDENTIFIER METHOD... You can keep the safe-portal method, and you just assign different portals different identifying numbers (as stated in my quoted post. Also, I used AF00 and etc because more values can be assigned to hexadecimal numbers using less digits.. For those of you who don't program, just see it as assigning 1's, 2's, 3's... So on, so forth)
After weighing the pro's and con's of each method, the Identifier Method has the most pros (connected portals, no complicated algorithms, beautiful simplicity), with the fewest cons (changing the nether to earth ratio).
And what about that con?
Who here is REALLY going to place a portal on the surface, count out intervals of 16 blocks, and hope this second portal is exactly where you plotted it?
You'll drop a portal XE (x, earth), and come out XN (X, nether). You will drop a random portal YN (Y, nether), then step out YE (y, earth) and build a base.
SMP servers... You might build portals between your cities, but SMP servers have the manpower that they can drop a portal X, a portal Y, and then send a scouting party through hell to link up the portals...
Yet again, you're not going to count the blocks between your two cities in an effort to map out your nether portals.
Edit: I got ninja'd by this.
Quote from Socob »
Quote from Knytt »
You need to combine it with my other solution, though, because just excavating the immediate area won't get rid of a "lava portal surprise".
Yeah, I've gone on about that at length - it would create a sphere of stone (or something similar) around the portal inside the lava lake.
Bubble-Method (aka, foreveralone.jpg)
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Time to explore the Nether and make friends with the Zombie Pigmen!
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What do you mean lava flows?
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I know! I'll just build a platform above the lava!
When making a portal, there needs to be "exceptions" when linking the portal, so it ignores the 1:16 ratio.
For example, when you make a portal and connect it to the Nether, it should link up the portals before you use it again.
I think notch coded it so it "links" only if you go back to earth from a Nether portal. I'm also thinking that the method that portals work is that it's "sending" your character to a "destination" (x, y, z portal location) based on a 1:16 ratio, and not to a "linked" portal.
So what should happen, when a portal is created on Earth, and if it's used to go to nether, in the midst of loading the game data for Nether, the portal from earth will be automatically linked to the new portal that's created (so when the game says "saving chunks, it should also have "linking portal").
So throughout the gameplay, this portal will never generate a new portal somewhere else based on the 1:16 ratio, UNLESS you deactivated it.
This only applies to portals that are created and USED for the first time on earth, and when portals in Nether were used to do a return trip.
Earth:
[] []
[] []
[] []
Nether - Not on a 1:16 ratio, was adjusted.
[]
[] [] []
[] [] []
[] [] []
[]
Method:
If [earth.portal used to go to nether.portal]
if [this.portal used for the first time]
Create PortalSpawn in Nether;
if[this.portal AND earth.portal =/= 1:16 ratio]
Throw[exception]
Link earth.portal and nether.portal
Catch[e]
@ Doomedprophet (I'm not going to quote the whole thing due to length):
a) It shouldn't create an entire mountain, just a small floating plane so that you don't drop to your death without even doing anything. Entire buildings will not be destroyed by this.
:cool.gif: The reason why you don't want to screw up the ratio is not only because it would mess up counting distances in the Nether, but because it would just get more and more confusing the more portals you built, especially with the identifier method, because you'd have to destroy the original portal to get back to sync - good look finding that in a collection of 10+ portals all leading to the same general area in the Nether. The player would have to adjust to the game's faulty system if he wanted to actually control where the portals take him, which is bad.
c) The pros you mentioned are either included in the bubble method (connected portals) or negligible/void (complicated alogrithms? It's not that complicated, and I'm sure Notch can handle it. Simplicity? What's more simple than just putting the portal where it belongs?)
d) If you suddenly appear in a sphere of cobblestone in the middle of the Nether, which doesn't occur there naturally, you know something's up. In addition, lava could make the occasional hissing sound when it's nearby, so that new players get a hint. That's already fine-tuning, though. Also, if the floor in your tiny sphere gets suddenly flooded with lava, I'd run the heck back through the portal instead of continuing to dig. This adds some actual thrill to the process of travelling to the Nether, too.
e) Lava does not work like that. And you could just quickly close the hole with a block. Lava's slow.
a) The reason I said it would have to create mountains is for scenic consistency. Dropping a random floating island is not one of the features you commonly see in the neither so either...
i) Now spawning a portal may create a random island in the air, which isn't consistent with the nether's
appearance. (The appearance of worlds is important IMO)
ii) Or we would have to spawn a landform consistent with other landforms in the nether (ie: a mountain)
So yes, it wouldn't necessarily mean we'd be dropping mountains in hell, but it seems to be one or another. (Unless you have an alternate idea?)
:cool.gif: With the identifier system, the game would attempt to place the portal in a relatively safe position, and a relatively geographically correct position. As far as keeping track of your portals, it's as simple as putting a sign there. Even now, if all the portals were properly linked with surface portals, people would forget which portal is which, so people will likely be signing portals in more complex systems anyhow.
c) The bubble algorithm wouldn't be ridiculously complex or anything, but you would have to take into consideration all the enviromental factors. And each time the algorithm changes the environment, it would have to recheck to make sure the removal of blocks didn't make the area unsafe again. Ex: Algorithm deletes a couple blocks above the portal, revealing a lava pocket. What do? Obviously, the algorithm would place blocks there to stop the spout, but the point is that it has to spend the time checking for these things. The identifier method uses the pre-conceived safe-portal method, and simply adds a permanent linking number between the portals so that they kind find each other if the placement of the portals doesn't match. It's simpler.
d) In this thread, I had seen a proposition for the 'bubble-method' in case you spawn in the middle of a lake of lava.. Make a wall of red cobblestone which acts as a barrier between you and death. I was meerly illustrating how impractical this would be, since any attempt to leave this 'cobble-bubble' would result in a painful, firey death. Also, to your idea of 'thrill', if I had to run back through that portal because it spawned me in the middle of a lava bubble, then that portal might as well have spawned right in the middle of a lava lake, sans-bubble.
e) I realize lava doesn't move that fast... The entire thing was being stated slightly-humorously for dramatic effect.
When making a portal, there needs to be "exceptions" when linking the portal, so it ignores the 1:16 ratio.
For example, when you make a portal and connect it to the Nether, it should link up the portals before you use it again.
I think notch coded it so it "links" only if you go back to earth from a Nether portal. I'm also thinking that the method that portals work is that it's "sending" your character to a "destination" (x, y, z portal location) based on a 1:16 ratio, and not to a "linked" portal.
So what should happen, when a portal is created on Earth, and if it's used to go to nether, in the midst of loading the game data for Nether, the portal from earth will be automatically linked to the new portal that's created (so when the game says "saving chunks, it should also have "linking portal").
So throughout the gameplay, this portal will never generate a new portal somewhere else based on the 1:16 ratio, UNLESS you deactivated it.
This only applies to portals that are created and USED for the first time on earth, and when portals in Nether were used to do a return trip.
Earth:
[] []
[] []
[] []
Nether - Not on a 1:16 ratio, was adjusted.
[]
[] [] []
[] [] []
[] [] []
[]
Method:
If [earth.portal used to go to nether.portal]
if [this.portal used for the first time]
Create PortalSpawn in Nether;
if[this.portal AND earth.portal =/= 1:16 ratio]
Throw[exception]
Link earth.portal and nether.portal
Catch[e]
This is pretty much what I was saying, except you actually wrote out the algorithm. +1 internets for you my friend.
My overworld glitch portal is on a lake, and it deletes the water block, so your second picture would have to do with something other than water.
If you get it right you're immediately my best friend.
For the billionth time, DIFFERENT COUNTRIES SPELL IT DIFFERENTLY
thtop being tho thowfish
Another suggestion was to add the frame underground, or in a lava lake or something, and have the portal then make a 'safe portal' as normal.
That's exactly how it works, I know for sure because I'm building islands in Hell in order to get a portal spot for my main base portal in overworld.
When a portal is first created from the overworld to the Nether, there is no guarantee that using the reverse portal will send you back to the original portal. The reason for this is unknown, but is possibly related to placement issues (the Nether portal might have to be moved because it would otherwise be in solid rock/lava/etc.)
It is possible to make a portal you build on the overworld go both ways with a portal in The Nether. To do so, a new portal must be built in The Nether in a position relative to where the portal you first built is. When you travel to The Nether, and then return, you usually emerge from a different new portal somewhere near your original one. Work out the relative position of the new portal and your original, and remember that travel in hell is around 1 block = 8 blocks on Earth. This means that, at some locations on Earth, that a new portal will NOT be created, as the original one is in the "correct" spot. Build a new portal in The Nether at the appropriate location, and your original portal should now link to it both ways[1].
Portals can deactivate if there is fire adjacent to it (started by the player or Ghasts). TNT can also disable a portal, but cannot destroy the surrounding Obsidian. It is possible to "re-ignite" portals by setting the space inside the frame on fire once again.
It has been confirmed that portals do not work in multiplayer yet; while they can be created, they can not not teleport you. Server settings can be changed in order to visit The Nether in multiplayer[2].
Notch has mentioned it is extremely unlikely, but possible, for Ghasts to appear on Earth near a portal.
I like it the way it is. Portals are not supposed to be safe and easy, they need to be a challenge. Once it's tamed it is a safe and effective long distance travel method.
The ONLY viable solution so far that would work well in SMP.
Auto excavating is a terrible idea for smp due to griefing potential. A griefer could calculate your base's nether location and then create a few portals in the nether and they would rip apart your base in the regular world as they cleared area.
Edit: Forgot about the obvious lol
create an actual connection between the portal objects is another solution.
This would be dreadful, just because it would be intensely frustrating, having to build and rebuild portals blindly, trying to find a clear area. I suspect Notch realized this.
I've fixed 4 portals using this method.
All 4 were broken, The Netherside Portals were misplaced due to walls. the return portals were between 30 and 200 blocks away from where i wanted them.
I mined out the nearby walls and placed new Netherside Portals where they would correlate with my normal side Portal.
They all work perfectly now.
It isn't very complicated but it is annoying to have to fix each Portal manually.
Solution, force the portal into the proper spot. If portal is in a wall create a bubble of space, if over lava create a platform.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=93046&start=30
Stupid internet connection.
Do you own Minecraft?
The alternative to the safe-portal approach is the clearing method, in which case space is made for the portal and the portal is placed where it should be anyhow.
If we take the clearing method, take this into consideration....
On the surface...
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] [] [] []
In the nether, after clearing space. (Obviously in the middle of a lake of lava.)
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
WHAT DO YOU MEAN LAVA FLOWS?
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
TELL MY MOM TO MINECRAFT A STATUE IN MY HONOR
That's my arguments against the BASIC clearing principle. (Just clear out 2-3 squares around the portal, pray for survival)
As far as ADVANCED clearing?
If portal is in a lake...
- Spawn solid ground underneath the portal.
- Destroy any lava lake around the portal or at least bring it to the same level as the portal.
- Get rid of lava spawns (possibly a hundred blocks up) which could harm player.
If portal is in the air...
- Build a mountain underneath the portal.
Besides either of these methods being taxing (that large of a change to a chunk will increase the loading screen that first time... No big deal though, we can wait a little longer), what if you had somthing built in hell? What if you have other portals? These changes to the landscape may destroy anything you've built in previous trips, not to mention they'll likely destroy the current look of hell. There's already a code in place to generate chunks in hell, these portals will create inconsistencies in hell's appearance.
Derp herp, well just make another algorithm that takes into consideration any other portals / buildings you may have in the LZ (landing zone)!
Or use the even simpler IDENTIFIER METHOD... You can keep the safe-portal method, and you just assign different portals different identifying numbers (as stated in my quoted post. Also, I used AF00 and etc because more values can be assigned to hexadecimal numbers using less digits.. For those of you who don't program, just see it as assigning 1's, 2's, 3's... So on, so forth)
After weighing the pro's and con's of each method, the Identifier Method has the most pros (connected portals, no complicated algorithms, beautiful simplicity), with the fewest cons (changing the nether to earth ratio).
And what about that con?
Who here is REALLY going to place a portal on the surface, count out intervals of 16 blocks, and hope this second portal is exactly where you plotted it?
You'll drop a portal XE (x, earth), and come out XN (X, nether). You will drop a random portal YN (Y, nether), then step out YE (y, earth) and build a base.
SMP servers... You might build portals between your cities, but SMP servers have the manpower that they can drop a portal X, a portal Y, and then send a scouting party through hell to link up the portals...
Yet again, you're not going to count the blocks between your two cities in an effort to map out your nether portals.
Edit: I got ninja'd by this.
Bubble-Method (aka, foreveralone.jpg)
[] []
[] []
[] []
[] []
[] []
Time to explore the Nether and make friends with the Zombie Pigmen!
[] []
[] []
[] []
[] []
[] []
What do you mean lava flows?
[] []
[] []
[] []
[] []
[]
I know! I'll just build a platform above the lava!
[] []
[] []
[]
[]
Lets try exploration again!
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[]
Son of a...
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Do you own Minecraft?
This was my understanding.
.
For example, when you make a portal and connect it to the Nether, it should link up the portals before you use it again.
I think notch coded it so it "links" only if you go back to earth from a Nether portal. I'm also thinking that the method that portals work is that it's "sending" your character to a "destination" (x, y, z portal location) based on a 1:16 ratio, and not to a "linked" portal.
So what should happen, when a portal is created on Earth, and if it's used to go to nether, in the midst of loading the game data for Nether, the portal from earth will be automatically linked to the new portal that's created (so when the game says "saving chunks, it should also have "linking portal").
So throughout the gameplay, this portal will never generate a new portal somewhere else based on the 1:16 ratio, UNLESS you deactivated it.
This only applies to portals that are created and USED for the first time on earth, and when portals in Nether were used to do a return trip.
Earth:
[] []
[] []
[] []
Nether - Not on a 1:16 ratio, was adjusted.
[]
[] [] []
[] [] []
[] [] []
[]
Method:
If [earth.portal used to go to nether.portal]
if [this.portal used for the first time]
Create PortalSpawn in Nether;
if[this.portal AND earth.portal =/= 1:16 ratio]
Throw[exception]
Link earth.portal and nether.portal
Catch[e]
a) The reason I said it would have to create mountains is for scenic consistency. Dropping a random floating island is not one of the features you commonly see in the neither so either...
i) Now spawning a portal may create a random island in the air, which isn't consistent with the nether's
appearance. (The appearance of worlds is important IMO)
ii) Or we would have to spawn a landform consistent with other landforms in the nether (ie: a mountain)
So yes, it wouldn't necessarily mean we'd be dropping mountains in hell, but it seems to be one or another. (Unless you have an alternate idea?)
:cool.gif: With the identifier system, the game would attempt to place the portal in a relatively safe position, and a relatively geographically correct position. As far as keeping track of your portals, it's as simple as putting a sign there. Even now, if all the portals were properly linked with surface portals, people would forget which portal is which, so people will likely be signing portals in more complex systems anyhow.
c) The bubble algorithm wouldn't be ridiculously complex or anything, but you would have to take into consideration all the enviromental factors. And each time the algorithm changes the environment, it would have to recheck to make sure the removal of blocks didn't make the area unsafe again. Ex: Algorithm deletes a couple blocks above the portal, revealing a lava pocket. What do? Obviously, the algorithm would place blocks there to stop the spout, but the point is that it has to spend the time checking for these things. The identifier method uses the pre-conceived safe-portal method, and simply adds a permanent linking number between the portals so that they kind find each other if the placement of the portals doesn't match. It's simpler.
d) In this thread, I had seen a proposition for the 'bubble-method' in case you spawn in the middle of a lake of lava.. Make a wall of red cobblestone which acts as a barrier between you and death. I was meerly illustrating how impractical this would be, since any attempt to leave this 'cobble-bubble' would result in a painful, firey death. Also, to your idea of 'thrill', if I had to run back through that portal because it spawned me in the middle of a lava bubble, then that portal might as well have spawned right in the middle of a lava lake, sans-bubble.
e) I realize lava doesn't move that fast... The entire thing was being stated slightly-humorously for dramatic effect.
The pros and cons, the points that stand...
Safe-Portal Method
Pros: Safe portal.
Preserves terrain.
Cons: Portals are not properly linked.
Already implemented (minimal coding needed to fix).
Does not keep ratio.
Bubble-Method.
Pros: Safe Portal.
Portals are properly linked.
Keeps ratio.
Cons: New code must be added.
Terrain must be changed.
Identifier Method
Pros: Safe Portal.
Portals are properly linked.
Preserves terrain.
Very little code must be added (uses Safe-Portal shell)
Cons: Does not keep ratio.
Do you own Minecraft?
This is pretty much what I was saying, except you actually wrote out the algorithm. +1 internets for you my friend.
Also, we need Notch in this thread.
Do you own Minecraft?