I finally managed to fix my portal. I destroyed all but one of my normal portals and went to the Nether, then I lowered the land level by 2 blocks and rebuilt it and now it works fine.
I finally managed to fix my portal. I destroyed all but one of my normal portals and went to the Nether, then I lowered the land level by 2 blocks and rebuilt it and now it works fine.
See funny how that works isn't it, all about the math (damn evil word!) Glad you got it fixed :wink.gif:
It is PARTIALLY a bug. Notch has said as much. Its pretty obviously a bug when you can go through a portal to the Nether. Come back through the same portal, end up in a different spot. Reenter the nether from the original portal, repeat it, and end up with a new portal a chunk or two away from the previously generated one. There's something wrong there.
It is PARTIALLY a bug. Notch has said as much. Its pretty obviously a bug when you can go through a portal to the Nether. Come back through the same portal, end up in a different spot. Reenter the nether from the original portal, repeat it, and end up with a new portal a chunk or two away from the previously generated one. There's something wrong there.
Not really it's just a math issue and how it deterimes where to generate the portal in the nether, it's all about that first portal. Read through my post (3 down from the OP) I explain it in a lot of detail and it's true. Half the battle about portals is understanding how they work, I could throw the math out here but that would do no good because most everyone wouldn't etheir get it or it may not be exactly how notch has it codded. But the basis and see how it works makes total sense.
It's not a glitch or bug, it's how the portal generation works. Read through that post again, and try it out yourself, if you still get odd results and it isn't working then by all means tell us, so we can find out if there is a bug or glitch and fix it.
ANd a quick little extra a bug or glitch is something not working as coded or inteded, for instance us dying and our inventory not being droped and lost is a glitch/bug, portals not working correctly in smp is a glitch/bug, armor not protecting against mobs is a glitch/bug. This is more of a glitch/bug to us the user then it is in reality, because most don't understand how the basic math (god bad word) works. All i'm trying to do is show you guys the information so you can use it and adapt to it. But its techincly not a bug or glitch from what I have seen and undestand.
It is PARTIALLY a bug. Notch has said as much. Its pretty obviously a bug when you can go through a portal to the Nether. Come back through the same portal, end up in a different spot. Reenter the nether from the original portal, repeat it, and end up with a new portal a chunk or two away from the previously generated one. There's something wrong there.
Exactly, no matter how you spin it, it's obviously not the intended function, you go in a portal, you should come back through it UNLESS you build a new one in the Nether. The portal generation code/math IS the bug, it has a flaw, therefore it's a bug.
I'm not even talking about the "come back in a new portal" bit, although one would think it'd be easy enough to link one portal field to another portal field.
Its when you take the same portal in the nether 3 times, and get 3 distinct and separate portals back out that there IS a problem.
Quickshot's explanation makes sense, but my exit portal put me like 150 blocks away from my entrance portal...and there's definitely plenty of open space between where the entrance portal is and where I got spit out. There's also plenty of space inside the Nether itself in all directions, so I'm not sure what happened with my world.
It is PARTIALLY a bug. Notch has said as much. Its pretty obviously a bug when you can go through a portal to the Nether. Come back through the same portal, end up in a different spot. Reenter the nether from the original portal, repeat it, and end up with a new portal a chunk or two away from the previously generated one. There's something wrong there.
Exactly, no matter how you spin it, it's obviously not the intended function, you go in a portal, you should come back through it UNLESS you build a new one in the Nether. The portal generation code/math IS the bug, it has a flaw, therefore it's a bug.
It's not a spin, i'm not bsing it makes sense from a math perspective. So fine here that evil math: Every 1 block in hell is the same as 16 in the normal realm. So lets go back to my example that I tired to explain and throw math in it, preicsly the x,y,z cords.
So for example, You create a portal in the normal realm at 150,150,0 and go through now it's going to move/generate a portal in the nether, so take 150 divide by 16, x is now 9.375, and since the y is the same we know y will be 9.375 (ignore the z since it's 0) So the new hell cords are 9.375, 9.375, 0 now lets round it off for the sake of droping the decimal point, so now its 9, 9, 0 now that we have the cords we check or hell area for any portals that already exist in a small range.
If there are none we have to generate one, so we look for a vaild spot to generate one, is 9,9,0 vaild, nope it's blocked by hell stone, so it looks around for a vaild spot and finds one at say 12,12,0 and generates the portal, you come walking out. So now what happens when you go back, you expect to come out the same portal, but ah-ha! Remeber it needed a vaild spot, and that every 1 block in hell is like 16 in normal. So lets go back, we walk in and it does the same thing but instead of divding our cords by 16 we times it by 16. So now our x and y is 192, 192, 0...
whoa thats quite a distance! So lets asumse the area to look for a portal in that area is only 16, if thats true the portal we made would not be in that radius, so it must generate a new one! And again placement comes into play.
And then you come out of a new generated portal in the normal real instead of the one you made farther away from it. Thats the evil math of it, it's not a bug or glitch, it's just how the math/system works. Is it exactly whats going on, probley not notch is much smarter and more experinced then me, but the basic idea of the math and implmentation still holds. It's no spin.
Quickshot's explanation makes sense, but my exit portal put me like 150 blocks away from my entrance portal...and there's definitely plenty of open space between where the entrance portal is and where I got spit out. There's also plenty of space inside the Nether itself in all directions, so I'm not sure what happened with my world.
That could be an Z axis issue, its the same issue but in this case isntead of the X, and Y like i explained above its the Z thats causing the issue. This is the same things for having 3 or more portals in the area. It's all just that evil math, i'm not saying I know exactly how it works, i'm just explaing why it works and we get these results, the basics again make sense, and what i've done and seen show that. Only notch can comepletly explain exaclty how it works and i'm pretty sure all our heads would explode lol
I don't think it's really "how the system works." I understand what you're saying and I think you're right as to why we view this behavior, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bug. It does what it was programmed to do, but that doesn't mean it does what it was intended to do.
As others have mentioned, whenever you create a portal and its matching portal is generated in the nether or in the real world, those two portals should become linked permanently. Linked portals should ignore the algorithm to find accessible terrain and the like, as they will always work given that they are linked to a location that has already been generated.
In other words, I think that when you create a portal at X position and its linked portal is created at Y position, X should always go to Y and Y should always go to X. And that's it.
What are the restrictions the game uses to determine where a portal can be placed in the Nether?
I followed Quickshot's instructions to find and fix the location for my desired portal -- had one portal in the normal world and one in the Nether, and everything was good. But then I started building an obsidian box around the portal in the Nether, and in the process my portal got de-activated, and wouldn't relight, and my real-world portal started making new portals again. I enlarged the house to make sure there would be at least a space of clearance around each side of the portal (and above it), but I can't get it to generate the good portal again.
How far apart in the real world do the gates need to be to end up in a different place in the nether?
I have about 6 gates and 5 of them all go to the same place even though they are quite far apart.
It's hard to exactly say, but from what i've seen (needs more testing) i'd say at least 24 blocks in the normal realm but that could be more, depdends on the radius portal generation checks for in the nether realm. In the nromal realm it seem obvious portal regeration is at least 16-20 blocks maybe a bit more but not much. As for nether radius check, that number may be bigger becuase of the space or it could be the exact same.
If it is the exact same radius check then you basicly have to do the 1:16 conversion. So if you want to generate a new portal in the nether realm from the normal and you aleady have one it would have to be whew...math evil math...256 or 320 blocks away.....now I don't think thats the case i'd say half that at least 50-100 blocks sounds more reasonable, but again without real testing it's hard to say. Something for you guys to try out. It's an intresting question thou.
Thanks for the detailed explanation QuickShot, I kinda get whats going on now, but it still seems like a bug even if its how notch intended it to work currently. Maybe he had to rush the implementation for this release, but I really hope he works on improving it to work without all the evil math, so portals just appear where you expect them to, and link only to corresponding portals in the same position (+ the additional distance of course).
I was quite confused when I exited the nether in a 2nd portal far from my base, only to appear right inside my base, with a portal I haddnt even made, when I should have exited back to a 2nd portal on the surface.
I think that the portals should still appear, even if there is an obstacle in the way in the nether. This can be treated differently depending on the obstacle, the gate only has to do a quick check of where its spawning in the nether and act accordingly. For example:
Your nether portal spawns:
-In mid air
Solution: Generate a small amount of land below the portal (one block high extending +2 blocks around all sides of the portal to form a hovering platform.
-In a lava lake
Solution: Generate a surrounding crust of obsidian or cobblestone around the portal, again something like +2 blocks all the way around. This will tell the player that their portal is somewhere dangerous, and the player will react how they feel is fit (by exiting and rebuilding the portal higher, or trying to dig out through the lava etc)
-In a mountain
Solution: Generate a surrounding crust of obsidian or cobblestone around the portal, again something like +2 blocks all the way around. The player can then dig out and dig until they reach an opening. Perhaps the surrounding could be something different to the lava example, to help the player work out what the problem is
There the only 3 problem scenarios I could think of.
Okay so the portal generating in the overworld being off notch considers a litle bit of a glitch/bug, thou most of what i said is sound and is right he does consider it to be a bug/glitch with how its acting now apprenly so i'm man enough to say it, I was wrong about it not being an acutall bug or glitch.
how would portals linking up by a kind of id, so that every pair of gates is hard-linked, solve anything? you still would have the problem of there being area you just cant portal to (lava seas, solid rock), skewing portaling as a strict chunk-level accuracy means of fast travel. it is impossible. period.
Is it really that hard to grasp?
It would work like this:
- Create a portal in the real world.
- The exact spawn location for the portal in the Nether is blocked; find the nearest unblocked location.
- Enter the portal. Run around in the Nether. Go back into the same portal.
- Instead of using the algorithm to decide where to teleport back to, skip the algorithm and go back to the same portal.
- Those two portals are linked from then onwards, permanently. The algorithm is never used again.
You are not spawning people in rock, or over a lava ocean.
Yeh, its strange.
Im glad its been confirmed by notch as a bug.
It should be simple really, like said above, portal 1 links to portal 1 in the nether permanatly, portal 2 links to portal 2 in the nether and so on. I still dont like the idea of the portals being placed away from obstacles 'in the next best place' because it makes them potentially much less accurate, and could produce some confusing results.
Just dump them where there meant to be and the player will deal with it.
I think this could have been avoided by assigning variables to each portal to link one portal to another. If the variable does not exist, create a new one.
It's a good idea the varibles thing and having specfic ids to portals but theres two problems with this, the first and major one is memory. All varibles take memory this would add even more, and as we all know it's something notch wants to try and avoid over doing so the game can be accessaible on a lot of other platforms. Hes already added more memory use for some of the new additions this would have to be another increase no way around that.
Second major issue I see with linking portals via ID is what happens when one or another portal is decactived, what happens to it's counter part? Does it deactive to, does it stay active...the bugs with this could cause more issues. If both portals deactivate when only one is deactive how can you reactive both? For instance lets say we have 2 portals we go through deactivate the portal in the nether by removing a block, okay now the one in over world is deactived. We go back to overworld and now we can't re-activate the portal in overworld because it's counterpart that its hard varibled too isn't properly a portal anymore so nothing happens....
Is it an option yes, but I think it's something notch wants to aovid, probley more specificly for the memory reason then anything, but I'm sure if it comes down to it he may end up doing it, we will just have to wait and see.
Thanks for the detailed explanation QuickShot, I kinda get whats going on now, but it still seems like a bug even if its how notch intended it to work currently. Maybe he had to rush the implementation for this release, but I really hope he works on improving it to work without all the evil math, so portals just appear where you expect them to, and link only to corresponding portals in the same position (+ the additional distance of course).
I was quite confused when I exited the nether in a 2nd portal far from my base, only to appear right inside my base, with a portal I haddnt even made, when I should have exited back to a 2nd portal on the surface.
I think that the portals should still appear, even if there is an obstacle in the way in the nether. This can be treated differently depending on the obstacle, the gate only has to do a quick check of where its spawning in the nether and act accordingly. For example:
Your nether portal spawns:
-In mid air
Solution: Generate a small amount of land below the portal (one block high extending +2 blocks around all sides of the portal to form a hovering platform.
-In a lava lake
Solution: Generate a surrounding crust of obsidian or cobblestone around the portal, again something like +2 blocks all the way around. This will tell the player that their portal is somewhere dangerous, and the player will react how they feel is fit (by exiting and rebuilding the portal higher, or trying to dig out through the lava etc)
-In a mountain
Solution: Generate a surrounding crust of obsidian or cobblestone around the portal, again something like +2 blocks all the way around. The player can then dig out and dig until they reach an opening. Perhaps the surrounding could be something different to the lava example, to help the player work out what the problem is
There the only 3 problem scenarios I could think of.
I fully support this solution, it was what i came here to say.
See funny how that works isn't it, all about the math (damn evil word!) Glad you got it fixed :wink.gif:
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Not really it's just a math issue and how it deterimes where to generate the portal in the nether, it's all about that first portal. Read through my post (3 down from the OP) I explain it in a lot of detail and it's true. Half the battle about portals is understanding how they work, I could throw the math out here but that would do no good because most everyone wouldn't etheir get it or it may not be exactly how notch has it codded. But the basis and see how it works makes total sense.
It's not a glitch or bug, it's how the portal generation works. Read through that post again, and try it out yourself, if you still get odd results and it isn't working then by all means tell us, so we can find out if there is a bug or glitch and fix it.
ANd a quick little extra a bug or glitch is something not working as coded or inteded, for instance us dying and our inventory not being droped and lost is a glitch/bug, portals not working correctly in smp is a glitch/bug, armor not protecting against mobs is a glitch/bug. This is more of a glitch/bug to us the user then it is in reality, because most don't understand how the basic math (god bad word) works. All i'm trying to do is show you guys the information so you can use it and adapt to it. But its techincly not a bug or glitch from what I have seen and undestand.
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Exactly, no matter how you spin it, it's obviously not the intended function, you go in a portal, you should come back through it UNLESS you build a new one in the Nether. The portal generation code/math IS the bug, it has a flaw, therefore it's a bug.
Its when you take the same portal in the nether 3 times, and get 3 distinct and separate portals back out that there IS a problem.
It's not a spin, i'm not bsing it makes sense from a math perspective. So fine here that evil math: Every 1 block in hell is the same as 16 in the normal realm. So lets go back to my example that I tired to explain and throw math in it, preicsly the x,y,z cords.
So for example, You create a portal in the normal realm at 150,150,0 and go through now it's going to move/generate a portal in the nether, so take 150 divide by 16, x is now 9.375, and since the y is the same we know y will be 9.375 (ignore the z since it's 0) So the new hell cords are 9.375, 9.375, 0 now lets round it off for the sake of droping the decimal point, so now its 9, 9, 0 now that we have the cords we check or hell area for any portals that already exist in a small range.
If there are none we have to generate one, so we look for a vaild spot to generate one, is 9,9,0 vaild, nope it's blocked by hell stone, so it looks around for a vaild spot and finds one at say 12,12,0 and generates the portal, you come walking out. So now what happens when you go back, you expect to come out the same portal, but ah-ha! Remeber it needed a vaild spot, and that every 1 block in hell is like 16 in normal. So lets go back, we walk in and it does the same thing but instead of divding our cords by 16 we times it by 16. So now our x and y is 192, 192, 0...
whoa thats quite a distance! So lets asumse the area to look for a portal in that area is only 16, if thats true the portal we made would not be in that radius, so it must generate a new one! And again placement comes into play.
And then you come out of a new generated portal in the normal real instead of the one you made farther away from it. Thats the evil math of it, it's not a bug or glitch, it's just how the math/system works. Is it exactly whats going on, probley not notch is much smarter and more experinced then me, but the basic idea of the math and implmentation still holds. It's no spin.
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That could be an Z axis issue, its the same issue but in this case isntead of the X, and Y like i explained above its the Z thats causing the issue. This is the same things for having 3 or more portals in the area. It's all just that evil math, i'm not saying I know exactly how it works, i'm just explaing why it works and we get these results, the basics again make sense, and what i've done and seen show that. Only notch can comepletly explain exaclty how it works and i'm pretty sure all our heads would explode lol
Edit: meant Z jeez how did i miss that *grumbles*
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Especially if its moving the portal over by a chunk based on whether you were standing in the left or right side of the portal.
As others have mentioned, whenever you create a portal and its matching portal is generated in the nether or in the real world, those two portals should become linked permanently. Linked portals should ignore the algorithm to find accessible terrain and the like, as they will always work given that they are linked to a location that has already been generated.
In other words, I think that when you create a portal at X position and its linked portal is created at Y position, X should always go to Y and Y should always go to X. And that's it.
I followed Quickshot's instructions to find and fix the location for my desired portal -- had one portal in the normal world and one in the Nether, and everything was good. But then I started building an obsidian box around the portal in the Nether, and in the process my portal got de-activated, and wouldn't relight, and my real-world portal started making new portals again. I enlarged the house to make sure there would be at least a space of clearance around each side of the portal (and above it), but I can't get it to generate the good portal again.
It's hard to exactly say, but from what i've seen (needs more testing) i'd say at least 24 blocks in the normal realm but that could be more, depdends on the radius portal generation checks for in the nether realm. In the nromal realm it seem obvious portal regeration is at least 16-20 blocks maybe a bit more but not much. As for nether radius check, that number may be bigger becuase of the space or it could be the exact same.
If it is the exact same radius check then you basicly have to do the 1:16 conversion. So if you want to generate a new portal in the nether realm from the normal and you aleady have one it would have to be whew...math evil math...256 or 320 blocks away.....now I don't think thats the case i'd say half that at least 50-100 blocks sounds more reasonable, but again without real testing it's hard to say. Something for you guys to try out. It's an intresting question thou.
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I was quite confused when I exited the nether in a 2nd portal far from my base, only to appear right inside my base, with a portal I haddnt even made, when I should have exited back to a 2nd portal on the surface.
I think that the portals should still appear, even if there is an obstacle in the way in the nether. This can be treated differently depending on the obstacle, the gate only has to do a quick check of where its spawning in the nether and act accordingly. For example:
Your nether portal spawns:
-In mid air
Solution: Generate a small amount of land below the portal (one block high extending +2 blocks around all sides of the portal to form a hovering platform.
-In a lava lake
Solution: Generate a surrounding crust of obsidian or cobblestone around the portal, again something like +2 blocks all the way around. This will tell the player that their portal is somewhere dangerous, and the player will react how they feel is fit (by exiting and rebuilding the portal higher, or trying to dig out through the lava etc)
-In a mountain
Solution: Generate a surrounding crust of obsidian or cobblestone around the portal, again something like +2 blocks all the way around. The player can then dig out and dig until they reach an opening. Perhaps the surrounding could be something different to the lava example, to help the player work out what the problem is
There the only 3 problem scenarios I could think of.
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Is it really that hard to grasp?
It would work like this:
- Create a portal in the real world.
- The exact spawn location for the portal in the Nether is blocked; find the nearest unblocked location.
- Enter the portal. Run around in the Nether. Go back into the same portal.
- Instead of using the algorithm to decide where to teleport back to, skip the algorithm and go back to the same portal.
- Those two portals are linked from then onwards, permanently. The algorithm is never used again.
You are not spawning people in rock, or over a lava ocean.
Im glad its been confirmed by notch as a bug.
It should be simple really, like said above, portal 1 links to portal 1 in the nether permanatly, portal 2 links to portal 2 in the nether and so on. I still dont like the idea of the portals being placed away from obstacles 'in the next best place' because it makes them potentially much less accurate, and could produce some confusing results.
Just dump them where there meant to be and the player will deal with it.
Second major issue I see with linking portals via ID is what happens when one or another portal is decactived, what happens to it's counter part? Does it deactive to, does it stay active...the bugs with this could cause more issues. If both portals deactivate when only one is deactive how can you reactive both? For instance lets say we have 2 portals we go through deactivate the portal in the nether by removing a block, okay now the one in over world is deactived. We go back to overworld and now we can't re-activate the portal in overworld because it's counterpart that its hard varibled too isn't properly a portal anymore so nothing happens....
Is it an option yes, but I think it's something notch wants to aovid, probley more specificly for the memory reason then anything, but I'm sure if it comes down to it he may end up doing it, we will just have to wait and see.
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I fully support this solution, it was what i came here to say.
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