I'm just going to assume that lanterns aren't from hell because, quoting MrTorus:
"Notch is replacing ALL previous torches with lanterns, regardless if they are on chests, on walls or inventory. You DO NOT need to freak out about all your torches."
and then:
" The update WON'T break the current saves
However, there's NO GUARANTEE that current saves will be able to get all the features in the new update (especially biomes and hell). Notch hasn't explained how these new features will work with old saves."
Since if we had to go to hell to get the lantern, we would not be able to get the lantern material on older saves if hell is not accessible on them, I doubt the material is really from hell, unless hell will be added into older saves.
If one is able to craft the portal to hell using materials that we already have, then it in no way hinders older saves from going into hell to make lanterns.
Well, yeah. But I wasn't sure if hell itself, with the new blocks, mobs, and such will be compatible with older saves. But that's because I don't know how the data management system works in this game.
It's an infinite light source..It makes sense that it's going to be harder to get than torches. I'm glad it'll be harder to make lanterns. I mean, torches will still exist, and can be refilled, so I don't see why it's such a big deal to everyone. If it's the rumored sulfur block, that shouldn't be impossible to get. Change the difficulty to Peaceful if you're so worried about dying while getting it.
Also, don't forget, Notch said 5 new blocks were added so far. There could still be more blocks yet to be "confirmed." There could be oil, or a natural gas of sorts that you can get and use for it. No one but Notch knows, and it's going to stay that way until the Halloween update, or if he leaks more details about the lanterns.
Not this again.
It has been stated before that Notch is one of the biggest trolls ever. We can't even take HIS word for proof. We can only take the final product, really.
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"It is always nice to have a sense of improbability in Littlebigplanet. FROGMORTON. Heh, you didn't expect that now did you?"
-Stephen Fry
You are not entitled to get what you want out of the game. You paid to support Notch while he made his game.[/b] It isn't your project and you don't have any say in the way it works. If you don't like going to hell for lanterns, then what you are entitled to do is deal with it, get a refund, or cheat. Have fun.
I am a consumer, just like you. I am entitled to get SOME enjoyment out of this game, just like you are. Sure, if I don't like the final product, I can quit playing. But I can also tell my friends what I think about this game, and how disappointed I was that they ****ed it all up. Just like you can complain that Notch is making the game to easy for builders who nonetheless like to fight mobs. I'm not worried, though. Notch would be utterly stupid to make lanterns require an item only found in hell, just like those who believe the OP are too utterly stupid to realize that when notch said, "You may have to go to hell," he was just ****ing with everyone.
[Or maybe I'm the stupid one for not realizing I'm just being trolled now...errgh. Damn patch days...]
You didn't say you were entitled to, "Some enjoyment." you said, "What I want."
Quote from jeremyvl »
As for justification in getting what I want...you better believe it. I paid money for this game, so yes, I am absolutely entitled to get what I want out of it. Absolutely entitled.
We weren't disputing whether or not you're entitled to enjoyment. Nor were we disputing whether I was any different than you. Seriously. You're pulling new arguments out of thin air.
There's a glowing rock in hell, Notch said that you may have to go into hell to make lanterns on his twitter. It really wasn't that much of a stretch for most people to put two and two together and assume that he wasn't joking. It's great that you think it won't happen, but it's also your opinion. You're all puffed up and calling people stupid because you disagree with people who made a reasonable assumption backed up on evidence. The only evidence you seem to have presented is, "No, it would be stupid!"
Honestly? If lanterns weren't a little hard to obtain, people wouldn't use torches at all. I don't think Notch was ****ing with us. Am I going to jump on my opinion and say that everyone who disagrees is stupid? No. I realize that I could be wrong. You're allowed to think you're right, but don't call other people "utterly stupid" just because they have another opinion.
I don't care which one of us is right. If the update comes out and we don't have to go into hell to make lanterns, I'll say, "Huh, guess he was ****ing with us." If we do have to go into hell, I'll deal with it. It's what I expected.
Notch saying "you might have to go into hell" only confirms he hasn't decided yet. Also, just because you might have to go into hell to make lanterns doesn't mean you go to hell to collect some type of material there. He could mean that lanterns can literally only be crafted in hell.
I'm not sure why everyone is going so hay wild over the lanterns. In my builds I use lava flows to light everything because I get sick of having to build torches. So, why would we need lanterns for a permanent light source? Even if torches die, wont lava still be around for us if we need it? :smile.gif:
Honestly? If lanterns weren't a little hard to obtain, people wouldn't use torches at all.
Wow, you actually said something intelligent. I completely agree -- this torch _> lantern upgrade isn't accomplishing anything except replacing one permanent light source with another slightly more expensive light source. I suppose one could clear out a cave using torches on the first pass-thru, then replace them with more carefully and strategically placed lanterns, but if that's the case, why not use lanterns in the first place?
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[....] [Pig]
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode. “Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
Lanterns are supposed to be difficult to get, if you're too lazy to go into Hell and get those glowing yellow blocks and mine them, then just stick to torches, you wuss.
I completely agree -- this torch _> lantern upgrade isn't accomplishing anything except replacing one permanent light source with another slightly more expensive light source. I suppose one could clear out a cave using torches on the first pass-thru, then replace them with more carefully and strategically placed lanterns, but if that's the case, why not use lanterns in the first place?
Torches have a different role now. Clearing out a cave and having it bright forever may now be a difficult thing to do. Maybe you don't have to have every cave you go through permanently lit. Maybe it makes sense that something made from a piece of coal and a stick might not last forever.
You seem upset because the game is now more difficult. This is the reason behind torches going out. If you want permanent light, you might have to work toward it.
Quote from jeremyvl »
Wow, you actually said something intelligent.
Cute. Is this how you chase away everyone that disagrees with you?
It looks like we don't have much to talk about, since for multiple posts you've dropped any part of the argument that you can't respond to. It doesn't lend a lot of credibility to what you're saying when you gloss over entire counterpoints.
I think Notch's true message was lost in translation
Notch's original tweet:
Quote from Notch »
@[USERNAME REMOVED] you might have to go into hell..
Notch's intended tweet:
Quote from Notch »
@[USERNAME REMOVED] go to hell!
My thoughts exactly. That was a terrible design for a lantern and I have no idea why Notch would demand that people go into hell to get the materials for a lantern.
Also, note the "might".
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The inquisitors were torturing Harry.
First, Ignatius used the rock.
Then Billy asked Harry if he wanted to read his BDSM blog. Harry was so surprised that his pants flew right off. He was wearing women's underpants. The inquisitors were wearing them, too.
You are not entitled to get what you want out of the game. You paid to support Notch while he made his game.[/b] It isn't your project and you don't have any say in the way it works. If you don't like going to hell for lanterns, then what you are entitled to do is deal with it, get a refund, or cheat. Have fun.
I am a consumer, just like you. I am entitled to get SOME enjoyment out of this game, just like you are. Sure, if I don't like the final product, I can quit playing. But I can also tell my friends what I think about this game, and how disappointed I was that they ****ed it all up. Just like you can complain that Notch is making the game to easy for builders who nonetheless like to fight mobs. I'm not worried, though. Notch would be utterly stupid to make lanterns require an item only found in hell, just like those who believe the OP are too utterly stupid to realize that when notch said, "You may have to go to hell," he was just ****ing with everyone.
[Or maybe I'm the stupid one for not realizing I'm just being trolled now...errgh. Damn patch days...]
Don't waste your time they are all just a bunch of selfish 12 year old pricks.
You seem upset because the game is now more difficult. This is the reason behind torches going out. If you want permanent light, you might have to work toward it.
Making lanterns out of glass + torch is an extra burden I'm more than willing to bear, thank you so much, and in fact I'm going to be crafting hundreds of torches over the next few weeks to cash in on the torch upgrade.
Torches aren't just used underground, though. Setting up a perimeter of permanent sources of light is essential for establishing a safe zone in survival mode, and if you've got a five-mile perimeter to light up, that is a LOT of torches (soon to be lanterns). I've already suffered major coal shortages just from the cost of setting up a wide perimeter, and with glass it's going to be a bit tougher, but not so tough since sand is far more plentiful than coal, and you can always use wood for fuel. But that's just it -- not everybody's gonna have all their torches magically upgrade to lanterns next month.
Fact is, I don't believe for a second that lanterns will require any foray at all into hell, it's basically a lie the OP & others created to scare the builders, and frankly I don't believe for a second that YOU believe it either.
Quote from jeremyvl »
It looks like we don't have much to talk about, since for multiple posts you've dropped any part of the argument that you can't respond to. It doesn't lend a lot of credibility to what you're saying when you gloss over entire counterpoints.
Wow. Starved for attention are we? Poor, poor baby. Hate to tell you this, Mr. Crying For Attention, but I don't respond to your every breath because, (1) I actually have a life, and other things I really should be doing right now, and (2) sometimes you run across ignorance that cannot be fought.
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[....] [Pig]
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode. “Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
Why are people still talking about this? This thread is about someone posting some twitter response about materials needed for a lantern, there is already a thread for discussion. >.>
After reading all the bullcrap elitism and certain people telling other people to play the game the way those certain people play it and 'deal with it', I'm putting my 2 cents in, and some common sense, because this game, as I've seen it progress, is supposed to be about getting to play it how you want to while doing whatever you want with the world randomly generated for you, not just survival and simulating real life.
Yeah, this is gonna be a long post because there's a lot to say.
First up, some of the previous posts, just cause they're right there.
This may be Notch's game, but the moment he asked for us to pay him to make it, to get a game that's not even in beta yet, leaving it wide open for our input, the buyers essentially became 'the boss', so to speak. Before you compare it to buying any other game, any other game is a complete product not in constant development, and the people buying it can see all of what they are getting before deciding to buy it. It doesn't change into something else later.
We paid for what we saw and read upon buying the game, along with all additions and expansions (which suggest things being added, not taken out), not something entirely different that someone else (namely, people like the above telling them it's a survival game, as if that's the only way to play it while in that mode... more on that later) wanted exclusively, and we should get the say in what we want in it as well. We don't want this to become the new youtube or windows vista, where you get what they want to give you later on after buying something else, not what you signed up for. It isn't very hard to make switches in an options menu, just like the difficulty switch, so the game works for either and all types of players that bought it for one purpose or another, so whomever bought it for non-frustrating building can play it that way, and whoever bought it to be an all out survival thing can play it that way, too.
Once more, those of us that bought this are the ones paying the paycheck to continue work on the game, and those that bought in pre-beta figure they are also getting to take part in what goes into it. Most of us know that to mean "additions to the current game to allow the current and other types of gameplay," not "changing the gameplay to exclusively fit someone else's style of play while removing big parts of the current gameplay."
Anyway, yes, the people that are paying for him and others to work on a game, are in fact entitled to get what we paid for, meaning what we saw from the game upon buying, as well as getting a say for promised additions in the development phase. He may or may not add them, but a good developer tries to target all groups, not a single group, so I'd hope he would take into account that some people want an easy going exploration building and mining game, and some want monsters around to fight off, too.
That's my 2 cents on that, as a guy that actually has to go out and work a job to get things like this, wether he likes it or not. So I'll have the non frustrating play I paid for to relax, not the stuff you want to have without care of others cause you don't play it that way.
Second point here, somewhat tied into the first there, about crafting permanent light sources... Minecraft is a game. Minecraft is first and foremost a game about being able to craft and create your own world as you see fit, and being able to gather materials to do so as part of the gameplay, as well as playing in this world as you want, in your own style to have fun the way you want to... Mine and craft. The extras added on are there to satisfy other types of players, like letting monsters spawn to run around that you have to fight off. There's a reason why you can change it on the fly, so you can decide when and how hard you want a challenge... making the game play as you see fit.
Minecraft is also not a real world simulator, it is a game, so don't interject real world logic into it only for the sake of satisfying some people that want the secondary challenges along with the mining and building anything they want. Torches don't have to burn out just because they do in real life. Light doesn't have to have refueling or some supply of energy just because it does in real life. This is a game, and people shouldn't be needlessly frustrated with a very basic detail of doing stuff, like having light, just to play it. Nothing else in the game is very logical, and it doesn't have to be. Torches do not have to go out just because you want a challenge and feel like pissing on everyone that doesn't play the game your way.
Having to go out searching for the materials, let alone go to the most difficult place in the game, just to get a very basic thing, permanent or not (it's a GAME), is a needless frustration to the players. Specifically those that just want to run around the world, have a little challenge in fighting off some monsters once in awhile, but enjoy just mining, building, and shaping the world to their desire. Plus, it's already damn near impossible to see anything at night, let alone inside a cavern, natural or one you made, so it would make the game very un-fun and frustrating to those that don't want to spend literally hours to days just to gather enough materials to light only their one base while they're trying to do the whole 'shaping the world as they want' thing.
I don't know about you, but I've spent about 5 + hours a day for a week now and only just got done landscaping my base's cliff side the way I want it to look, while working at night and mining deep in a cavern to get the stuff I needed. How long do you think it would drag out for everyone if they were constantly worried about and running out of light, unable to do **** for half the time, just sitting there for 7 minutes in the dark? Most of us probably don't want to go around mining for days worth of our little time in a game just to make light so we can build at night.
Many of us got the game not for surviving monster attacks and doing difficult challenges, we got it to build and landscape the land, and do exploring, anywhere, with the OPTION of having monsters appear if we wanted them for a challenge, not to have a bunch of tedious maintenance tasks and having to worry about being able to see half the time. It should be optional if you want your light sources to be temporary, as another optional challenge for those that want it that way.
Third one is short... so the lantern is being made because people are spamming torches to keep monsters away... and that's a problem how? They're playing their game (as stated in what you get) the way they want to play it, and making it as challenging as they want it. If they want to put down a bunch of torches to make it easier for them to play, then what's the problem? They aren't doing it in your world. There's no rank thing, so it's not like they're cheating to get something. The only thing they get out of it is making it less difficult for them to move around at night.
If you don't like the way other people play, get off your high horse and ignore it. You can limit your torch use in your own game if you want to, that's your prerogative... so don't screw over everyone else just because they want to play the game the way they want to play it, and not the way you want to play it.
Oh, and someone said something about making them all get a mod to make them not go out, well why don't you guys just get a mod that makes them go out? There's 2 sides to the coin... your way isn't the only way, so don't force your way on everyone that doesn't like your way, let them play their way.
Last, Minecraft is not a monster survival game first, that is secondary as an addition. I'm taking a bit of common sense here to state: minecraft is a game about shaping your world as you see fit, and gathering and crafting stuff as part of the gameplay that makes it interesting... therefor, as I'm sure most people did, they bought the game because it's fun to go out digging for materials to craft stuff to shape the world as they see fit. They didn't buy it exclusively for monster survival and difficult / frustrating / tedious maintenance just for some poor real world injection for the sake of 'survival' just because some people wanted to fight monsters off easier.
But anyway, yeah, it's called survival, but that's the only single player mode there is in alpha. It's fun to people to chose when they want to up the difficulty, because the world is pretty much infinite, isn't it? They can get a start on an easy mode, and when they're bored with just building and landscaping and mining for materials to craft things, they can set the difficulty to their liking. People that want to start out easy, don't want those monsters or a bunch of tedious things hindering their ability to build and stuff, shouldn't be forced into having no permanent light source so they can't work at night while taking it easy. When they feel ready to fight things and take on challenges, that's when they should have the option.
Use creative? Why should we all go back to an earlier version missing a ton of things we want to have, like day and night, an infinite world, mining and crafting for ores n stuff, option difficulty for monsters, when one could have a simple option for the torches, just because someone that wasn't you decided to spam torches to see at night... in their own world?
But yeah, I'll use myself as an example again, with a very good point or 2... I get on and play to relax. It's fun to play a game just to relax after a long hard day at work, and it's not fun to have to go from worrying about job **** to worrying about being able to see... unnecessary frustration. I don't want to have to go all over for hours and hours to find the stuff to make something as basic as permanent light that I don't have to worry about going out.
It'll be a major pain in the ass trying to work on something, or being down in a mineshaft, just having fun mining, then boom, you're stuck in the dark with no way to get out except to lose your items and die... that is, if you're even in a position where monsters will spawn to kill you. You might be in an enclosed area that won't let them spawn, and even if they do, how long will it take waiting around, doing nothing at all, on the thing you came to play to RELAX on, just to die and lose your **** you were mining for just so you can... have the major annoyance of having to go run around and get more temporary light to risk it happening again? You might get permanently stuck in a spot where no monsters can reach you to kill you anyway, and it'll still **** off everyone that starts a 'survival' game in the mode to have it all easy while they have fun in THEIR way before deciding to have other challenges.
TL;DR version:
Minecraft is a game about playing the way you want, shaping the world how you want, and having a challenge when you want it. Don't isolate a large group of players that play to relax and have fun have by having unnecessary frustration for a basic item that's not causing any real damage to those that want the frustration as a challenge, and causing more frustration by making them have to worry about playing the game their way literally half the time they're running it. It's easy to get lost in the time and forget about those dumb little maintenance details and end up in a situation that does nothing but **** them off.
Add the features as optional gameplay devices in the options menu that allow people to play easy and relaxing, allowing them to run around and explore / mine / build / landscape freely, allowing them to challenge themselves later if they want to, while still allowing those that want the challenge right away to play it that way... Everyone wins, and the game stays classic and fun, the way they paid for it, or they can turn up the challenges when they want to.
I have one final thing to state about this relighting torches thing... when you're in a hurry, and/or in the dark, you can miss the torch with the flint/iron pretty easily while trying to keep from getting attacked. Mistakes can happen, and one shouldn't have to suffer from a mistake due to a problem brought on just because some other people wanted to light their own world at night with ease.
The other half of this is building wooden houses... this game, again, is about making your world your way, so if people want to build structures with wood, they should get to without being penalized by a simple mistake, or build with something they don't like just because of, again, a problem brought on because someone else wanted to light their world at night with ease, and then another didn't like the way that person played their own game.
I apologize for the essay of a response... I rarely respond, but when I do, I have a lot to say. I'm sure I speak for well more than a few people when I say that I bought this game to relax and have fun with the option to have a challenge when I want to. We don't want some dumb frustration like temporary light to kill all the mood of the fun by making it difficult to even go at at night to work on things, let alone go into any kind of cave or mine to get materials. We shouldn't be punished just for taking it easy and using the game for it's main features. Everyone isn't as good of a player as you are, everyone isn't just like you, everyone doesn't like your way only. So please, make temporary torch light, and other challenges of this magnitude, an option... if it's really that big of a problem for people to light their own world and make it easier for themselves. I know enough programming to know it needs only a line or two for the object to check a set option, and a line or 2 to allow the option to be set.
By the way, because I know there'll be a few people that can't get over their own egos and self important viewpoints to let people play a game they their own way instead of those other peoples' way, and will tear apart posts to try to prop themselves up over others, I don't care if you waste your time trying to tear apart this post, as I've been watching done to others. You aren't everyone else, and noone that plays their own way is going to give a crap about your way of playing and why you should have the game play your way, just as those stuck in their little box where everyone should play their way isn't going to care about the common sense points I tried to explain above.
Me? I think those that want to have that extra worry of light being temporary should have the option... without screwing over everyone else that wants to play the game to relax while having the option to make it difficult o the fly. Let it be optional. Let hell be entirely optional. No need to remove what's there to add a new thing instead of just adding a new option to the existing one. Everyone wins.
And once more, we didn't buy the game the way we like it now to have it your way. we bought it because the way it is now plays the way we like, and wanted all ADDITIONAL features and upgrades in the future. We do get a say because we're paying to get to.
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"Could not create the Java Virtual Machine" using the offline program? Solution to the problem: <!-- m -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdSYsGR2wpI Get the JAR version, make BAT. Works on Java 1.5, too.
So you want everyone who enjoys playing without fighting mobs to just quit? That's rather selfish.
The point is that the purpose of the game is to SURVIVE. If you're playing a game mode called "Survival", you have no justification for expecting not to fight mobs. You have no right to call it unfair because you knew what you were getting into and chose to play anyway. That's like buying Super Smash Brothers and saying it's unfair that you can't play as Sonic the Hedgehog.
Peaceful mode exists. Did you forget? How about easy mode?
...
Hard mode exists for a reason. It is neither able to override the other modes, nor should it. Might want to remember that the next time you decide to take your high and mighty HardCorez horsie for a ride.
And your analogy is flawed on so many levels that I won't bother.
Edit/Addition: DChronos, I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.
So you want everyone who enjoys playing without fighting mobs to just quit? That's rather selfish.
The point is that the purpose of the game is to SURVIVE. If you're playing a game mode called "Survival", you have no justification for expecting not to fight mobs. You have no right to call it unfair because you knew what you were getting into and chose to play anyway. That's like buying Super Smash Brothers and saying it's unfair that you can't play as Sonic the Hedgehog.
And your analogy is flawed on so many levels that I won't bother.
For all we know, there is a Hitler MOD and an army of Nazis with guns agisnt us with are little sword. =.= Its nazi killin time, and business, business is goooood.
You seem upset because the game is now more difficult. This is the reason behind torches going out. If you want permanent light, you might have to work toward it.
Making lanterns out of glass + torch is an extra burden I'm more than willing to bear, thank you so much, and in fact I'm going to be crafting hundreds of torches over the next few weeks to cash in on the torch upgrade.
Torches aren't just used underground, though. Setting up a perimeter of permanent sources of light is essential for establishing a safe zone in survival mode, and if you've got a five-mile perimeter to light up, that is a LOT of torches (soon to be lanterns). I've already suffered major coal shortages just from the cost of setting up a wide perimeter, and with glass it's going to be a bit tougher, but not so tough since sand is far more plentiful than coal, and you can always use fuel for wood. But that's just it -- not everybody's gonna have all their torches magically upgrade to lanterns next month.
Fact is, I don't believe for a second that lanterns will require any foray at all into hell, it's basically a lie the OP & others created to scare the builders, and frankly I don't believe for a second that YOU believe it either.
You might not be able to set up a five mile perimeter unless you go to hell. That's really the long and short of it. If you want to build gigantic structures without worrying about keeping them well-lit, you might have to play on peaceful or wait for the Creative Mode update. Just because it's a sandbox game doesn't mean it's never going to challenge you.
People in this thread are saying that they play Minecraft to lie back and have fun building in a relaxed game. Sounds like the perfect description of peaceful mode, to me.
Quote from jeremyvl »
Wow. Starved for attention are we? Poor, poor baby. Hate to tell you this, Mr. Crying For Attention, but I don't respond to your every breath because, (1) I actually have a life, and other things I really should be doing right now, and (2) sometimes you run across ignorance that cannot be fought.
It's really not a matter of attention. In order to have a real discussion, you can't just drop the points I'm making. Seriously. It makes you look like you can't debate very well when you have to pick and choose a couple of things out of what I've said and ignore the rest. It's not really even a debate anymore once you start doing that. You're only arguing with the parts that are easy to argue.
Listen, I've stated my opinion and you've stated yours. Maybe we should agree to disagree? It's obvious that you aren't going to shift from such a strong stance, and I'm not going to react to hostility with anything but negativity. I've been trying to stay courteous with you, but I don't know how long I can keep it up with all the name-calling you've resorted to. It just isn't very considerate.
Honestly. You've said multiple times that you don't believe this will happen. Can you see any point in arguing about it? I think it could happen (even though I don't pretend to know that it will), so I'm trying to tell you why it might be good for the game to make permanent light something that you have to work for.
I enjoy discussions where I can see other viewpoints. It's why I haven't really let up on my argument. I'm trying to see why it would be a good idea to make lanterns easy to craft, because it doesn't seem like there would be much point in adding them at all if they're not a bit challenging. I just don't think permanent safety from mob spawns is something that should be easy to obtain.
You have stated over and over that you are sure, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this won't happen. What is your point, then, in arguing with me? It doesn't seem like you enjoy it as much as I do. It should be obvious to you that I'm not going to change my mind, and so we are at insurmountable ends with each other.
If one is able to craft the portal to hell using materials that we already have, then it in no way hinders older saves from going into hell to make lanterns.
Also, don't forget, Notch said 5 new blocks were added so far. There could still be more blocks yet to be "confirmed." There could be oil, or a natural gas of sorts that you can get and use for it. No one but Notch knows, and it's going to stay that way until the Halloween update, or if he leaks more details about the lanterns.
Not this again.
It has been stated before that Notch is one of the biggest trolls ever. We can't even take HIS word for proof. We can only take the final product, really.
-Stephen Fry
You didn't say you were entitled to, "Some enjoyment." you said, "What I want."
We weren't disputing whether or not you're entitled to enjoyment. Nor were we disputing whether I was any different than you. Seriously. You're pulling new arguments out of thin air.
There's a glowing rock in hell, Notch said that you may have to go into hell to make lanterns on his twitter. It really wasn't that much of a stretch for most people to put two and two together and assume that he wasn't joking. It's great that you think it won't happen, but it's also your opinion. You're all puffed up and calling people stupid because you disagree with people who made a reasonable assumption backed up on evidence. The only evidence you seem to have presented is, "No, it would be stupid!"
Honestly? If lanterns weren't a little hard to obtain, people wouldn't use torches at all. I don't think Notch was ****ing with us. Am I going to jump on my opinion and say that everyone who disagrees is stupid? No. I realize that I could be wrong. You're allowed to think you're right, but don't call other people "utterly stupid" just because they have another opinion.
I don't care which one of us is right. If the update comes out and we don't have to go into hell to make lanterns, I'll say, "Huh, guess he was ****ing with us." If we do have to go into hell, I'll deal with it. It's what I expected.
Wow, you actually said something intelligent. I completely agree -- this torch _> lantern upgrade isn't accomplishing anything except replacing one permanent light source with another slightly more expensive light source. I suppose one could clear out a cave using torches on the first pass-thru, then replace them with more carefully and strategically placed lanterns, but if that's the case, why not use lanterns in the first place?
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode.
“Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
Torches have a different role now. Clearing out a cave and having it bright forever may now be a difficult thing to do. Maybe you don't have to have every cave you go through permanently lit. Maybe it makes sense that something made from a piece of coal and a stick might not last forever.
You seem upset because the game is now more difficult. This is the reason behind torches going out. If you want permanent light, you might have to work toward it.
Cute. Is this how you chase away everyone that disagrees with you?
It looks like we don't have much to talk about, since for multiple posts you've dropped any part of the argument that you can't respond to. It doesn't lend a lot of credibility to what you're saying when you gloss over entire counterpoints.
My thoughts exactly. That was a terrible design for a lantern and I have no idea why Notch would demand that people go into hell to get the materials for a lantern.
Also, note the "might".
First, Ignatius used the rock.
Then Billy asked Harry if he wanted to read his BDSM blog. Harry was so surprised that his pants flew right off. He was wearing women's underpants. The inquisitors were wearing them, too.
They realized that they were all men of the lord.
- 30 Hs
Making lanterns out of glass + torch is an extra burden I'm more than willing to bear, thank you so much, and in fact I'm going to be crafting hundreds of torches over the next few weeks to cash in on the torch upgrade.
Torches aren't just used underground, though. Setting up a perimeter of permanent sources of light is essential for establishing a safe zone in survival mode, and if you've got a five-mile perimeter to light up, that is a LOT of torches (soon to be lanterns). I've already suffered major coal shortages just from the cost of setting up a wide perimeter, and with glass it's going to be a bit tougher, but not so tough since sand is far more plentiful than coal, and you can always use wood for fuel. But that's just it -- not everybody's gonna have all their torches magically upgrade to lanterns next month.
Fact is, I don't believe for a second that lanterns will require any foray at all into hell, it's basically a lie the OP & others created to scare the builders, and frankly I don't believe for a second that YOU believe it either.
Wow. Starved for attention are we? Poor, poor baby. Hate to tell you this, Mr. Crying For Attention, but I don't respond to your every breath because, (1) I actually have a life, and other things I really should be doing right now, and (2) sometimes you run across ignorance that cannot be fought.
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode.
“Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
Yeah, this is gonna be a long post because there's a lot to say.
First up, some of the previous posts, just cause they're right there.
This may be Notch's game, but the moment he asked for us to pay him to make it, to get a game that's not even in beta yet, leaving it wide open for our input, the buyers essentially became 'the boss', so to speak. Before you compare it to buying any other game, any other game is a complete product not in constant development, and the people buying it can see all of what they are getting before deciding to buy it. It doesn't change into something else later.
We paid for what we saw and read upon buying the game, along with all additions and expansions (which suggest things being added, not taken out), not something entirely different that someone else (namely, people like the above telling them it's a survival game, as if that's the only way to play it while in that mode... more on that later) wanted exclusively, and we should get the say in what we want in it as well. We don't want this to become the new youtube or windows vista, where you get what they want to give you later on after buying something else, not what you signed up for. It isn't very hard to make switches in an options menu, just like the difficulty switch, so the game works for either and all types of players that bought it for one purpose or another, so whomever bought it for non-frustrating building can play it that way, and whoever bought it to be an all out survival thing can play it that way, too.
Once more, those of us that bought this are the ones paying the paycheck to continue work on the game, and those that bought in pre-beta figure they are also getting to take part in what goes into it. Most of us know that to mean "additions to the current game to allow the current and other types of gameplay," not "changing the gameplay to exclusively fit someone else's style of play while removing big parts of the current gameplay."
Anyway, yes, the people that are paying for him and others to work on a game, are in fact entitled to get what we paid for, meaning what we saw from the game upon buying, as well as getting a say for promised additions in the development phase. He may or may not add them, but a good developer tries to target all groups, not a single group, so I'd hope he would take into account that some people want an easy going exploration building and mining game, and some want monsters around to fight off, too.
That's my 2 cents on that, as a guy that actually has to go out and work a job to get things like this, wether he likes it or not. So I'll have the non frustrating play I paid for to relax, not the stuff you want to have without care of others cause you don't play it that way.
Second point here, somewhat tied into the first there, about crafting permanent light sources... Minecraft is a game. Minecraft is first and foremost a game about being able to craft and create your own world as you see fit, and being able to gather materials to do so as part of the gameplay, as well as playing in this world as you want, in your own style to have fun the way you want to... Mine and craft. The extras added on are there to satisfy other types of players, like letting monsters spawn to run around that you have to fight off. There's a reason why you can change it on the fly, so you can decide when and how hard you want a challenge... making the game play as you see fit.
Minecraft is also not a real world simulator, it is a game, so don't interject real world logic into it only for the sake of satisfying some people that want the secondary challenges along with the mining and building anything they want. Torches don't have to burn out just because they do in real life. Light doesn't have to have refueling or some supply of energy just because it does in real life. This is a game, and people shouldn't be needlessly frustrated with a very basic detail of doing stuff, like having light, just to play it. Nothing else in the game is very logical, and it doesn't have to be. Torches do not have to go out just because you want a challenge and feel like pissing on everyone that doesn't play the game your way.
Having to go out searching for the materials, let alone go to the most difficult place in the game, just to get a very basic thing, permanent or not (it's a GAME), is a needless frustration to the players. Specifically those that just want to run around the world, have a little challenge in fighting off some monsters once in awhile, but enjoy just mining, building, and shaping the world to their desire. Plus, it's already damn near impossible to see anything at night, let alone inside a cavern, natural or one you made, so it would make the game very un-fun and frustrating to those that don't want to spend literally hours to days just to gather enough materials to light only their one base while they're trying to do the whole 'shaping the world as they want' thing.
I don't know about you, but I've spent about 5 + hours a day for a week now and only just got done landscaping my base's cliff side the way I want it to look, while working at night and mining deep in a cavern to get the stuff I needed. How long do you think it would drag out for everyone if they were constantly worried about and running out of light, unable to do **** for half the time, just sitting there for 7 minutes in the dark? Most of us probably don't want to go around mining for days worth of our little time in a game just to make light so we can build at night.
Many of us got the game not for surviving monster attacks and doing difficult challenges, we got it to build and landscape the land, and do exploring, anywhere, with the OPTION of having monsters appear if we wanted them for a challenge, not to have a bunch of tedious maintenance tasks and having to worry about being able to see half the time. It should be optional if you want your light sources to be temporary, as another optional challenge for those that want it that way.
Third one is short... so the lantern is being made because people are spamming torches to keep monsters away... and that's a problem how? They're playing their game (as stated in what you get) the way they want to play it, and making it as challenging as they want it. If they want to put down a bunch of torches to make it easier for them to play, then what's the problem? They aren't doing it in your world. There's no rank thing, so it's not like they're cheating to get something. The only thing they get out of it is making it less difficult for them to move around at night.
If you don't like the way other people play, get off your high horse and ignore it. You can limit your torch use in your own game if you want to, that's your prerogative... so don't screw over everyone else just because they want to play the game the way they want to play it, and not the way you want to play it.
Oh, and someone said something about making them all get a mod to make them not go out, well why don't you guys just get a mod that makes them go out? There's 2 sides to the coin... your way isn't the only way, so don't force your way on everyone that doesn't like your way, let them play their way.
Last, Minecraft is not a monster survival game first, that is secondary as an addition. I'm taking a bit of common sense here to state: minecraft is a game about shaping your world as you see fit, and gathering and crafting stuff as part of the gameplay that makes it interesting... therefor, as I'm sure most people did, they bought the game because it's fun to go out digging for materials to craft stuff to shape the world as they see fit. They didn't buy it exclusively for monster survival and difficult / frustrating / tedious maintenance just for some poor real world injection for the sake of 'survival' just because some people wanted to fight monsters off easier.
But anyway, yeah, it's called survival, but that's the only single player mode there is in alpha. It's fun to people to chose when they want to up the difficulty, because the world is pretty much infinite, isn't it? They can get a start on an easy mode, and when they're bored with just building and landscaping and mining for materials to craft things, they can set the difficulty to their liking. People that want to start out easy, don't want those monsters or a bunch of tedious things hindering their ability to build and stuff, shouldn't be forced into having no permanent light source so they can't work at night while taking it easy. When they feel ready to fight things and take on challenges, that's when they should have the option.
Use creative? Why should we all go back to an earlier version missing a ton of things we want to have, like day and night, an infinite world, mining and crafting for ores n stuff, option difficulty for monsters, when one could have a simple option for the torches, just because someone that wasn't you decided to spam torches to see at night... in their own world?
But yeah, I'll use myself as an example again, with a very good point or 2... I get on and play to relax. It's fun to play a game just to relax after a long hard day at work, and it's not fun to have to go from worrying about job **** to worrying about being able to see... unnecessary frustration. I don't want to have to go all over for hours and hours to find the stuff to make something as basic as permanent light that I don't have to worry about going out.
It'll be a major pain in the ass trying to work on something, or being down in a mineshaft, just having fun mining, then boom, you're stuck in the dark with no way to get out except to lose your items and die... that is, if you're even in a position where monsters will spawn to kill you. You might be in an enclosed area that won't let them spawn, and even if they do, how long will it take waiting around, doing nothing at all, on the thing you came to play to RELAX on, just to die and lose your **** you were mining for just so you can... have the major annoyance of having to go run around and get more temporary light to risk it happening again? You might get permanently stuck in a spot where no monsters can reach you to kill you anyway, and it'll still **** off everyone that starts a 'survival' game in the mode to have it all easy while they have fun in THEIR way before deciding to have other challenges.
TL;DR version:
Minecraft is a game about playing the way you want, shaping the world how you want, and having a challenge when you want it. Don't isolate a large group of players that play to relax and have fun have by having unnecessary frustration for a basic item that's not causing any real damage to those that want the frustration as a challenge, and causing more frustration by making them have to worry about playing the game their way literally half the time they're running it. It's easy to get lost in the time and forget about those dumb little maintenance details and end up in a situation that does nothing but **** them off.
Add the features as optional gameplay devices in the options menu that allow people to play easy and relaxing, allowing them to run around and explore / mine / build / landscape freely, allowing them to challenge themselves later if they want to, while still allowing those that want the challenge right away to play it that way... Everyone wins, and the game stays classic and fun, the way they paid for it, or they can turn up the challenges when they want to.
I have one final thing to state about this relighting torches thing... when you're in a hurry, and/or in the dark, you can miss the torch with the flint/iron pretty easily while trying to keep from getting attacked. Mistakes can happen, and one shouldn't have to suffer from a mistake due to a problem brought on just because some other people wanted to light their own world at night with ease.
The other half of this is building wooden houses... this game, again, is about making your world your way, so if people want to build structures with wood, they should get to without being penalized by a simple mistake, or build with something they don't like just because of, again, a problem brought on because someone else wanted to light their world at night with ease, and then another didn't like the way that person played their own game.
I apologize for the essay of a response... I rarely respond, but when I do, I have a lot to say. I'm sure I speak for well more than a few people when I say that I bought this game to relax and have fun with the option to have a challenge when I want to. We don't want some dumb frustration like temporary light to kill all the mood of the fun by making it difficult to even go at at night to work on things, let alone go into any kind of cave or mine to get materials. We shouldn't be punished just for taking it easy and using the game for it's main features. Everyone isn't as good of a player as you are, everyone isn't just like you, everyone doesn't like your way only. So please, make temporary torch light, and other challenges of this magnitude, an option... if it's really that big of a problem for people to light their own world and make it easier for themselves. I know enough programming to know it needs only a line or two for the object to check a set option, and a line or 2 to allow the option to be set.
By the way, because I know there'll be a few people that can't get over their own egos and self important viewpoints to let people play a game they their own way instead of those other peoples' way, and will tear apart posts to try to prop themselves up over others, I don't care if you waste your time trying to tear apart this post, as I've been watching done to others. You aren't everyone else, and noone that plays their own way is going to give a crap about your way of playing and why you should have the game play your way, just as those stuck in their little box where everyone should play their way isn't going to care about the common sense points I tried to explain above.
Me? I think those that want to have that extra worry of light being temporary should have the option... without screwing over everyone else that wants to play the game to relax while having the option to make it difficult o the fly. Let it be optional. Let hell be entirely optional. No need to remove what's there to add a new thing instead of just adding a new option to the existing one. Everyone wins.
And once more, we didn't buy the game the way we like it now to have it your way. we bought it because the way it is now plays the way we like, and wanted all ADDITIONAL features and upgrades in the future. We do get a say because we're paying to get to.
"Could not create the Java Virtual Machine" using the offline program? Solution to the problem: <!-- m -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdSYsGR2wpI Get the JAR version, make BAT. Works on Java 1.5, too.
Peaceful mode exists. Did you forget? How about easy mode?
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Hard mode exists for a reason. It is neither able to override the other modes, nor should it. Might want to remember that the next time you decide to take your high and mighty HardCorez horsie for a ride.
And your analogy is flawed on so many levels that I won't bother.
Edit/Addition: DChronos, I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.
My humble LPs can be found here.
You might not be able to set up a five mile perimeter unless you go to hell. That's really the long and short of it. If you want to build gigantic structures without worrying about keeping them well-lit, you might have to play on peaceful or wait for the Creative Mode update. Just because it's a sandbox game doesn't mean it's never going to challenge you.
People in this thread are saying that they play Minecraft to lie back and have fun building in a relaxed game. Sounds like the perfect description of peaceful mode, to me.
It's really not a matter of attention. In order to have a real discussion, you can't just drop the points I'm making. Seriously. It makes you look like you can't debate very well when you have to pick and choose a couple of things out of what I've said and ignore the rest. It's not really even a debate anymore once you start doing that. You're only arguing with the parts that are easy to argue.
Listen, I've stated my opinion and you've stated yours. Maybe we should agree to disagree? It's obvious that you aren't going to shift from such a strong stance, and I'm not going to react to hostility with anything but negativity. I've been trying to stay courteous with you, but I don't know how long I can keep it up with all the name-calling you've resorted to. It just isn't very considerate.
Honestly. You've said multiple times that you don't believe this will happen. Can you see any point in arguing about it? I think it could happen (even though I don't pretend to know that it will), so I'm trying to tell you why it might be good for the game to make permanent light something that you have to work for.
I enjoy discussions where I can see other viewpoints. It's why I haven't really let up on my argument. I'm trying to see why it would be a good idea to make lanterns easy to craft, because it doesn't seem like there would be much point in adding them at all if they're not a bit challenging. I just don't think permanent safety from mob spawns is something that should be easy to obtain.
You have stated over and over that you are sure, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this won't happen. What is your point, then, in arguing with me? It doesn't seem like you enjoy it as much as I do. It should be obvious to you that I'm not going to change my mind, and so we are at insurmountable ends with each other.