Listen, I've stated my opinion and you've stated yours. Maybe we should agree to disagree?
I don't agree to that. :smile.gif: [/Homer Simpson]
Quote from thecraww »
You've said multiple times that you don't believe this will happen. Can you see any point in arguing about it? I think it could happen (even though I don't pretend to know that it will), so I'm trying to tell you why it might be good for the game to make permanent light something that you have to work for.
If I may be so bold, let me ask you something -- what is your style of play? How large is your base camp? Do you even have a base camp? Do you gather your torches after clearing a giant cave, or do you leave them in place? Because I'm starting to suspect that your base of operations doesn't require nearly as much lighting as mine does. (Keep in mind, it's not just the perimeter that needs to be lit -- it's the base camp itself, not to mention all the caves and mines underneath it.)
Quote from thecraww »
I just don't think permanent safety from mob spawns is something that should be easy to obtain.
"Easy to obtain" -- you keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Quote from thecraww »
It should be obvious to you that I'm not going to change my mind, and so we are at insurmountable ends with each other.
Yes, that is quite obvious...but if anyone is having a major disconnect here, it is you, not me. I suggest you look on YouTube at the worlds some people have built -- entire CITIES, in some cases -- and yet, they still play with monsters enabled. Not everyone plays the game like you do, and that's something you really need to comprehend instead of actinng like a stubborn all the time.
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[....] [Pig]
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode. “Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
The current game mode alpha is in is called SURVIVAL. The official discription of SURVIVAL mode is "build and mine during the day while fighting zombies and skeletons at night". Fighting and combat is as much part of survival mode as "crafting the landscape". On top of that, if you want to be safe from monsters even in the dark, Notch has something special for you called "Peaceful" mode. Peaceful mode instantly kills monsters who spawn so very fast, you can't even see it. You are able to craft in the dark all you want and be safe.
The point of survival mode is to survive. If that means constantly relighting to The point of creative mode is to create. If you want to create, maybe you should play the mode that was designed for you? Also, the people defending having to go into hell was NOT the first people to bring in real world logic or tried to at least. It was people who was saying going into hell for lanterns was stupid.
On top of that, just since we payed for the game early, does not mean we become "the boss" of Notch. We are just buying a product early. Oh and just since the game is in constant development doesn't change anything. Most games, when open to pre-orders (Thus buying the game early) are only 50% done. You don't see people getting on a high horse saying that the developers need to change this and that just since they bought the game before it was finished. There are alot of Betas that are "pre-order only". Finally MMOs that are subscription base generally has beta as well that you need to buy at least one month play time before you can play in it.
Point is, just since Notch is a single developer who listens to the community on things does not make him any different from any other developer on any other game. Lots of good open alpha/betas has the developer listening to the community. A lot of bad ones don't. Just since some one pre-ordered a game thought, does not make you any more "the boss" then any one else. We are not giving him a constant payroll. He is not entitled to listen to us. He could, if he wanted to after the halloween update, call the game complet/call it the final release and we can't do crap about it.
Plus, the game is in ALPHA. Let's repeat, ALPHA. ALPHA is the phase of a game where one tests stuff. Even if we move into BETA, it is still a testing phase. He could make it so lanterns need the glowing block from hell and then give it two weeks to see and have lots of players test it. After those two weeks, place a poll to see if the player's like it or not. If they say not, he might change it to redstone/restone torches in the place of the glowing block and see how players liked that.
Note: On the pre-ordering video games before they are even 50% done. Lastest example: fallout new vegas. The game didn't even go out to print the start of this month (october) and one could pre-order it around january 2010. Around January or febuary, in an interview with (i think) PC gamer or some site, they said the game was about half done.
I just don't think permanent safety from mob spawns is something that should be easy to obtain.
"Easy to obtain" -- you keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Quote from thecraww »
It should be obvious to you that I'm not going to change my mind, and so we are at insurmountable ends with each other.
Yes, that is quite obvious...but if anyone is having a major disconnect here, it is you, not me. I suggest you look on YouTube at the worlds some people have built -- entire CITIES, in some cases -- and yet, they still play with monsters enabled. Not everyone plays the game like you do, and that's something you really need to comprehend instead of actinng like a stubborn all the time.
Easy to obtain: I.E. can not obtain with in the first hour of playing.
No, it is still you who is having the disconnect. Those people will just have to do what they had to do to BUILD those gaint cities if to make lanterns, they would have to go into hell. They would have to go farm them like any other block they need.
Heck we don't even know WHAT material they would need from hell (maybe). The glowing block could be as easy to get and as abundent (or twice as abundent) as coal. The only problem would be getting to hell to get the block instead of accually farming the block. Heck it could be as simple as 8 pieces of glass around a bucket of lava for a lantern. Then you would (maybe) have to go to hell if you couldn't find enough lava in your normal map since, well from the screen shot we got of hell so far, there is a lot of lava.
The materials for 8 pieces of glass + lava filled bucket (you get the bucket back) wouldn't be too hard to obtain but still not as easy as torches are and wouldn't be obtained with in the first few hours of playing. Thought it would be abundent for any player who puts enough time and effort into it.
Thought, that is the main thing there is what I placed at the end; If we HAVE to go to hell for the blocks, would there be enough so that if a player puts a decent amount of time into harvesting/hunting them, would they have more then enough for what they need it for?
No... just... No. That was in all meanings a joke, he was just kidding around. I did it a lot when I hosted my own server. We won't have to go into hell.
I like how everyone ignored this perfectly logical explanation that is probably exactly what is happening.
And how nobody knows what the word "might" means.
We are not ignoring the word might. The word might makes for a bad discussion. So if the word 'might' is involved and people want a good discussion, people generally split into the sides of "What if we do have to" and "what if we don't have to".
it's basically a lie the OP & others created to scare the builders
Oh, really? Somebody had made a list of all the things notch has actually said, and this is on the list. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49256
Or you could check notch's twitter, which also supports what I have said - there will be a lantern material only available in hell. If you want to prove me wrong, you should go to my sources and see if they say so. Trust me, I check notch's twitter and blog every day - I wouldn't lie about this. If I did, I wouldn't have included actual quotes!
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Quote from Sheip »
Yes. ****ing is normal , your parents do it all the time.
And thats part of the update.
Quote from makersmark »
The interent: Where men are men, women are men and kids are FBI agents
Wow you people are stupid Dchronos made a perfect logical post and you just dismiss it and continue on with trying to force your play style on everyone else.
Wow you people are stupid Dchronos made a perfect logical post and you just dismiss it and continue on with trying to force your play style on everyone else.
Also the word survival is no where in the game.
We didn't ignore him. We just don't have hours to counter every part of his post that doesn't make any sense.
Dchronos thinks that anybody desiring changes to the game making it more difficult is "trying to force our play style on everyone else". We aren't trying to force anything. We are trying to help notch make a better game and many of us believes that involves making it much more difficult. Many of us can see how insanely good this game would be if there was actually challenge to survival mode. Dchronos can just as easily switch to peaceful mode and play the easy game that he wants. Dchronos believes that he is entitled to having a say in this game....except there are many that don't agree with what he wants. Yes, options are always good...but Notch wants this game to be more difficult and so do many of us. The game is in ALPHA and we are here to provide input on how Notch can improve the game. We aren't trying to force our playstyle on Dchronos. Yes, I read his very very long post. Dchronos plays the game in his own little way and apparently any of us wanting a BETTER, more challenging game, is apparently us trying to force our playstyle upon Dchronos.
I think we all agree that many menu options are desired. Why somebody would want to play survival mode with no challenge(the current incarnation) doesn't make sense to many here. We are just providing our input on how to make the game better. We don't have a say in how this game is created...all we can do is provide our opinions and let Notch do his magic.
Oh, really? Somebody had made a list of all the things notch has actually said, and this is on the list. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49256
Or you could check notch's twitter, which also supports what I have said - there will be a lantern material only available in hell. If you want to prove me wrong, you should go to my sources and see if they say so. Trust me, I check notch's twitter and blog every day - I wouldn't lie about this. If I did, I wouldn't have included actual quotes!
Oh Good Gravy...
You know, this type of alarmist tactic is nothing I haven't heard before. Mostly it's the work of conspiracy theorist morons, like 9/11 Truthers, Moon Hoaxers, Global Warning Deniers, Anti-Evolutionists, Anti-Abortionists, NWO/Illuminati believers...the list goes on and on. All these people saying, "IT'S THE TRUTH! WE HAVE THE EVIDENCE! LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE!" And as much as I'd like to debate you and show you precisely where your logic has gone wrong, I won't, because it's a waste of my breath and there's no way to make you accept your mistaken conclusion, whether it was an honest mistake or not.
Quote from Eldur »
Easy to obtain: I.E. can not obtain with in the first hour of playing.
No, it is still you who is having the disconnect. Those people will just have to do what they had to do to BUILD those gaint cities if to make lanterns, they would have to go into hell. They would have to go farm them like any other block they need.
Heck we don't even know WHAT material they would need from hell (maybe). The glowing block could be as easy to get and as abundent (or twice as abundent) as coal. The only problem would be getting to hell to get the block instead of accually farming the block. Heck it could be as simple as 8 pieces of glass around a bucket of lava for a lantern. Then you would (maybe) have to go to hell if you couldn't find enough lava in your normal map since, well from the screen shot we got of hell so far, there is a lot of lava.
The materials for 8 pieces of glass + lava filled bucket (you get the bucket back) wouldn't be too hard to obtain but still not as easy as torches are and wouldn't be obtained with in the first few hours of playing. Thought it would be abundent for any player who puts enough time and effort into it.
Thought, that is the main thing there is what I placed at the end; If we HAVE to go to hell for the blocks, would there be enough so that if a player puts a decent amount of time into harvesting/hunting them, would they have more then enough for what they need it for?
I'm quoting your whole post just so you won't ***** at me for ignoring you. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just not going debate a premise based entirely on a fantasy theory (i.e. can't make lanterns w/o visiting hell.) No offense intended, hope you understand.
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[....] [Pig]
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[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode. “Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
Notch has something special for you called "Peaceful" mode. Peaceful mode instantly kills monsters who spawn so very fast, you can't even see it. You are able to craft in the dark all you want and be safe.
Here's the deal -- I've already made my objections known about how the difficulty system is utterly BROKEN right now. The player should NOT be forced to choose between "No Monsters Anywhere" and "MONSTERS FROM HELL!!!" As much as I've been enjoying the "Resident Evil" spawns at night, if the game was like this forever, I'd eventually burn out and quit playing. (There's a reason that Survival Horror games always have SOME kind of storyline which is resolved at the end, for good or evil -- but since this is an open-ended sandbox game, there will be no end to the horror, none at all, no hope of salvation for any of us...)
Now, I've been informed that since the game's still in development, this issue can't be fixed until the game moves from Alpha to Beta. And you know what? I'm perfectly fine with that. I've even worked it into my roleplay -- my character (a veteran starfighter who's crash-landed on this uncharted, hostile planet) has finally contacted one of his army's command ships (Starship Alpha) who has said, "Sorry, we cannot assist you or even acknowledge your presence due to the ongoing war with the Zoltans...check back in a year when Starship Beta passes through this quadrant."
I'm confident that the final game will have multiple difficulty modes, ranging from Peaceful (as it is now) to Serene (monsters spawn only in caves, but overland is safe day or night) to Cautious (some overland spawn, but rare & confined to specific areas like mountains or forests) to Advanced (nights are dangerous, but not as dangerous as they are now -- think Oblivion/Fallout style). And yes, they should keep the current Alpha Survival mode as an option, and perhaps other modes where not even days are safe...and then everyone is happy!
Quote from Eldur »
Point is, just since Notch is a single developer who listens to the community on things does not make him any different from any other developer on any other game. Lots of good open alpha/betas has the developer listening to the community. A lot of bad ones don't.
Notch seems like one of the good ones, I'll grant him that. He also likes to **** with people's minds, and I like that about him, too. Which is why I won't debate the lantern/hell topic anymore -- it's a ridiculous premise with zero basis in fact. (Except for those gullible enough to not recognize that Notch was joking, obviously.)
Now, if Notch were one of the bad developers, he might do stupid **** like making lanterns require super-duper-rare materials only found in Hell. But that would alienate so many people (esp. the Builders, who are this game's CORE audience, you Survivalists keep that in mind, will ya) that people would abandon the game in droves. It would be economic suicide. But that's unlikely to happen, I think...as far as I can tell, Notch is a stand-up guy who listens to his community and want to make the best game possible for as many people as possible, but he's not above maximizing his profits, either. :smile.gif: I think that's great!
Quote from Eldur »
Plus, the game is in ALPHA. Let's repeat, ALPHA. ALPHA is the phase of a game where one tests stuff. Even if we move into BETA, it is still a testing phase.
Yeah...isn't that awesome?? This game's already well-balanced and bug-free (except for spawning/difficulty issues) and the designer is STILL adding stuff. Just imagine what it will look like when it's finished...not to mention what it will look like when the modders start working on it!
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[....] [Pig]
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[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode. “Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
I love how before the update was announced, people were complaining that Crouching compass, ect., ect., ect. were making the game way to easy, and that Notch was breaking his promise to make Survival Hard.
Now that he is, Even more people are complaining. *sigh*
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Back in my day, sheep dropped brown mushrooms, and by golly we... Hated it, pretty much.
How long have you all been playing MineCraft? I got started with Survival Test. After Creative, it was the second released game mode. Unsurprisingly, Survival Test is the earliest playable version of Survival Mode. The game, quite literally, consists of fighting mobs. Immediately after spawning, you find yourself surrounded by gangs of creepers, skeletons, spiders and zombies. You earn points by killing mobs. To "win," kill as many mobs as possible. Obviously, you want to survive as long as possible. You will die. It is only a matter of time. Building creatively is secondary.
Of course, I am aware that MineCraft is still in development. Since Indev, less emphasis has been placed on fighting mobs. There is no longer a point system to reward mob killing. No doubt, Survival Mode is no longer exclusively about fighting mobs. However, a good portion of the game is still about fighting mobs. This has nothing to do with "elitism," "hardcore" gaming or selfishly trying to impose a narrow idea of how a game should be played on everyone else.
Attempting to please everyone will, in turn, please no-one. This is not a universally applicable rule, but it does apply in this context. Survival Mode revolves around crafting, hostile mobs and finite resources. If people want a version of MineCraft with all the challenges of Survival Mode, save hostile mobs, I think it would be more prudent to be honest about that desire and to petition Notch accordingly. If people just want an update to Creative Mode, the same applies. That, as opposed to demanding Survival Mode be nerfed or watered down to suit your own, personal preferences.
Your original evidence is pretty specious at best. However I do admit I sort of like the idea of lanterns requiring a material from hell. This would satisfy my idea of making it difficult to acquire lanterns on the first few nights forcing you to use this new torch mechanic until you learn where to find the materials you need for lanterns.
Also I kind of like the idea of having to make periodic expeditions into the wilds of hell in search for materials. This has the potential to be a bit challenging for a change.
Point is, just since Notch is a single developer who listens to the community on things does not make him any different from any other developer on any other game. Lots of good open alpha/betas has the developer listening to the community. A lot of bad ones don't.
Notch seems like one of the good ones, I'll grant him that. He also likes to **** with people's minds, and I like that about him, too. Which is why I won't debate the lantern/hell topic anymore -- it's a ridiculous premise with zero basis in fact. (Except for those gullible enough to not recognize that Notch was joking, obviously.)
Now, if Notch were one of the bad developers, he might do stupid **** like making lanterns require super-duper-rare materials only found in Hell. But that would alienate so many people (esp. the Builders, who are this game's CORE audience, you Survivalists keep that in mind, will ya) that people would abandon the game in droves. It would be economic suicide. But that's unlikely to happen, I think...as far as I can tell, Notch is a stand-up guy who listens to his community and want to make the best game possible for as many people as possible, but he's not above maximizing his profits, either. :smile.gif: I think that's great!
This is where you FAIL. Now stop spreading YOUR LIES. No one here that is agrueing that blocks should be from hell Super rare. Let's repeat that...
NO ONE HERE SAID THE BLOCK WOULD BE SUPER RARE.
Let's say it to gether.
NO ONE HERE HAS SAID THE BLOCK WILL BE SUPER RARE.
Now let's say it one more time to drive the point into that skull!
JUST SINCE THE BLOCK IS IN HELL, DOES NOT MAKE IT SUPER RARE.
You have avoided the agruement for your own crazy ideas or another reason that the block COULD BE NOT EVEN RARE TO THE POINT WHERE EVER PLAYER COULD HAVE A STACK OF 64+ FROM JUST SPENDING AN THIRY MINUTES INSIDE HELL. The only part hard about finding a common block in hell, would be getting there.
Here is a little game developer's trick for you; if you want some one to go into an area, put a carrot into that area. Hell was looking up to be an optional area. Sure you could use it as fast travel and there was sure to be nice materials from it, but other then that, nothing that was "required" to survive the normal minecraft world. So to do that (since it is obvious that he wants players to go into and explore hell), Notch needed to place an item that we need (not want) inside of it. It could be as commoon as dirt, all it had to be was inside of hell.
Your arguement is basicly; "I just don't want to go into hell even if the item could be as common as dirt or as rare as diamond". You just want to avoid going inside hell.
TL;DR
Let's go over some points...
1) The Torch -> Lantern change is stupid of Lanterns are made just as easy as Torches (this we can agree on I hope). By easy I mean anything from just requiring glass, stone, and a torch. For it to not be easy but not be hard, it would require iron and some glass for the lanterns.
2) Just since an item is from hell, does not make it super rare
Now, let's talk about how those to mash up nicely together. What if Notch wanted lanters to be as easy to make as torches? That would make the first point moot. The common material as common as coal would make the first point moot since no one would even bother to make torches. How does a developer solve this type of issue? If they have "another world" (in this case hell), place the common material there. It would be just as easy to create lanterns as you do torchers, but the only hard part is getting to hell.
who is being selfish? The people demanding special accommodation or the people who accept and enjoy MineCraft Survival Mode for what it is?
The people demanding special accommodations. Specifically those asking notch to make it impossible to build on anything other than peaceful mode. The game "as it is" accommodates all forms of play. Personally I don't play on peaceful mode. I enjoy the added challenge of dealing with mobs (especially when exploring caves,) and I enjoy building. So I can understand why some people will only ever play in peaceful mode and why others want to play in a very hard, constant siege mode. What I don't understand is why some people want to break the game to prevent others from enjoying the building aspect of it.
As far as I can tell, Notch is committed to both forms of play. If survival means spending all your time either fighting mobs, or building traps, what are bookcases for? why even have permanent light? Notch is certainly making it harder and stretching out the time from day one to having a safe fortified base, but he isn't making any form of play impossible. At least as far as I can tell.
who is being selfish? The people demanding special accommodation or the people who accept and enjoy MineCraft Survival Mode for what it is?
The people demanding special accommodations. Specifically those asking notch to make it impossible to build on anything other than peaceful mode. The game "as it is" accommodates all forms of play. Personally I don't play on peaceful mode. I enjoy the added challenge of dealing with mobs (especially when exploring caves,) and I enjoy building. So I can understand why some people will only ever play in peaceful mode and why others want to play in a very hard, constant siege mode. What I don't understand is why some people want to break the game to prevent others from enjoying the building aspect of it.
As far as I can tell, Notch is committed to both forms of play. If survival means spending all your time either fighting mobs, or building traps, what are bookcases for? why even have permanent light? Notch is certainly making it harder and stretching out the time from day one to having a safe fortified base, but he isn't making any form of play impossible. At least as far as I can tell.
Just since you have to get an item from hell, does not make it impossible to do the stuff you would do now with torches. Only thing that changes is you need to spend a little bit more time gathering materials. Oh and it is the people who won't adapt to change and doesn't want change that is the selfish.
I like to build in minecraft and I build on hard mode. I stripped a 64x64 piece of land, drained ocean, and other stuff for me to build my project. My goal is to build a 16x16 tower and a 32x32 castle on bed rock. It's not just going to be a castle and tower made out of anything. It's going to be made out of obsidian. On top of that, the tower is going to go from bed rock to the sky's limit. I am going to have to dirt mold lava springs since I am very limited on only two diamond picks.
I don't care that lanters will require a hell material. I will go into hell to get what I need. Heck I am going to start a new save and build the same tower I am now with lanterns for light instead of my current lava + torches.
For those that haven't read this, I'll post it here, since it's pretty enlightening as to his intentions about survival mode:
I strongly believe that all good stories have a conflict, and that all good games tell a good story regardless of if it's pre-written or emergent. Free building mode is fine and dandy, but for many people it will ultimately become boring once you've got it figured out. It's like playing a first person shooter in god mode, or giving yourself infinite funds in a strategy game.. a lack of challenge kills the fun.
For survival mode, I'd rather make the game too difficult than too easy.
-Notch, on the Minecraft "about" page.
So many developers try to appease everyone and don't want to annoy or alienate anyone and end up making a watered-down game that may sell well, but isn't that good. Many games today are too easy.
Notch should stick to his vision of making survival mode hard. If he listens to the whiners than want a glorified creative mode, it would be to the game's detriment. I think building is only fun and meaningful if it's something that is achieved despite obstacles. Given enough time, anyone could build anything in creative mode, yet I don't find these things that impressive--the real achievements are things that are built with limited resources in a world full of things trying to kill you.
The game is far too easy now. If you can survive the first night or two, you can effective avoid danger entirely for the rest of the game. In this thread people are saying it'd be too hard to permanently light a huge complex five miles across, which boggles my mind. Making a huge structure like that should be hard and require lots of resources. If you only have resources to light a medium or small area, only build a medium or small structure until you have enough resources. You're not entitled to easily construct and perma-light some huge magnificent fortress.
The challenge of survival mode shouldn't effectively end after the first night or two after which you are able to bathe miles and miles of landscape, caves, and buildings with permanent-light. If you're complaining that lighting a huge area is going to be hard (if this information about lanterns ends up being true), then that's because it should be.
But it might be the monsters that drop the item.
I don't agree to that. :smile.gif: [/Homer Simpson]
If I may be so bold, let me ask you something -- what is your style of play? How large is your base camp? Do you even have a base camp? Do you gather your torches after clearing a giant cave, or do you leave them in place? Because I'm starting to suspect that your base of operations doesn't require nearly as much lighting as mine does. (Keep in mind, it's not just the perimeter that needs to be lit -- it's the base camp itself, not to mention all the caves and mines underneath it.)
"Easy to obtain" -- you keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Yes, that is quite obvious...but if anyone is having a major disconnect here, it is you, not me. I suggest you look on YouTube at the worlds some people have built -- entire CITIES, in some cases -- and yet, they still play with monsters enabled. Not everyone plays the game like you do, and that's something you really need to comprehend instead of actinng like a stubborn all the time.
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode.
“Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
The current game mode alpha is in is called SURVIVAL. The official discription of SURVIVAL mode is "build and mine during the day while fighting zombies and skeletons at night". Fighting and combat is as much part of survival mode as "crafting the landscape". On top of that, if you want to be safe from monsters even in the dark, Notch has something special for you called "Peaceful" mode. Peaceful mode instantly kills monsters who spawn so very fast, you can't even see it. You are able to craft in the dark all you want and be safe.
The point of survival mode is to survive. If that means constantly relighting to The point of creative mode is to create. If you want to create, maybe you should play the mode that was designed for you? Also, the people defending having to go into hell was NOT the first people to bring in real world logic or tried to at least. It was people who was saying going into hell for lanterns was stupid.
On top of that, just since we payed for the game early, does not mean we become "the boss" of Notch. We are just buying a product early. Oh and just since the game is in constant development doesn't change anything. Most games, when open to pre-orders (Thus buying the game early) are only 50% done. You don't see people getting on a high horse saying that the developers need to change this and that just since they bought the game before it was finished. There are alot of Betas that are "pre-order only". Finally MMOs that are subscription base generally has beta as well that you need to buy at least one month play time before you can play in it.
Point is, just since Notch is a single developer who listens to the community on things does not make him any different from any other developer on any other game. Lots of good open alpha/betas has the developer listening to the community. A lot of bad ones don't. Just since some one pre-ordered a game thought, does not make you any more "the boss" then any one else. We are not giving him a constant payroll. He is not entitled to listen to us. He could, if he wanted to after the halloween update, call the game complet/call it the final release and we can't do crap about it.
Plus, the game is in ALPHA. Let's repeat, ALPHA. ALPHA is the phase of a game where one tests stuff. Even if we move into BETA, it is still a testing phase. He could make it so lanterns need the glowing block from hell and then give it two weeks to see and have lots of players test it. After those two weeks, place a poll to see if the player's like it or not. If they say not, he might change it to redstone/restone torches in the place of the glowing block and see how players liked that.
Note: On the pre-ordering video games before they are even 50% done. Lastest example: fallout new vegas. The game didn't even go out to print the start of this month (october) and one could pre-order it around january 2010. Around January or febuary, in an interview with (i think) PC gamer or some site, they said the game was about half done.
Easy to obtain: I.E. can not obtain with in the first hour of playing.
No, it is still you who is having the disconnect. Those people will just have to do what they had to do to BUILD those gaint cities if to make lanterns, they would have to go into hell. They would have to go farm them like any other block they need.
Heck we don't even know WHAT material they would need from hell (maybe). The glowing block could be as easy to get and as abundent (or twice as abundent) as coal. The only problem would be getting to hell to get the block instead of accually farming the block. Heck it could be as simple as 8 pieces of glass around a bucket of lava for a lantern. Then you would (maybe) have to go to hell if you couldn't find enough lava in your normal map since, well from the screen shot we got of hell so far, there is a lot of lava.
The materials for 8 pieces of glass + lava filled bucket (you get the bucket back) wouldn't be too hard to obtain but still not as easy as torches are and wouldn't be obtained with in the first few hours of playing. Thought it would be abundent for any player who puts enough time and effort into it.
Thought, that is the main thing there is what I placed at the end; If we HAVE to go to hell for the blocks, would there be enough so that if a player puts a decent amount of time into harvesting/hunting them, would they have more then enough for what they need it for?
We are not ignoring the word might. The word might makes for a bad discussion. So if the word 'might' is involved and people want a good discussion, people generally split into the sides of "What if we do have to" and "what if we don't have to".
Oh, really? Somebody had made a list of all the things notch has actually said, and this is on the list. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49256
Or you could check notch's twitter, which also supports what I have said - there will be a lantern material only available in hell. If you want to prove me wrong, you should go to my sources and see if they say so. Trust me, I check notch's twitter and blog every day - I wouldn't lie about this. If I did, I wouldn't have included actual quotes!
Also the word survival is no where in the game.
I find easy, normal and hard the same.
How is this information "Leaked"?
It isn't.
We didn't ignore him. We just don't have hours to counter every part of his post that doesn't make any sense.
Dchronos thinks that anybody desiring changes to the game making it more difficult is "trying to force our play style on everyone else". We aren't trying to force anything. We are trying to help notch make a better game and many of us believes that involves making it much more difficult. Many of us can see how insanely good this game would be if there was actually challenge to survival mode. Dchronos can just as easily switch to peaceful mode and play the easy game that he wants. Dchronos believes that he is entitled to having a say in this game....except there are many that don't agree with what he wants. Yes, options are always good...but Notch wants this game to be more difficult and so do many of us. The game is in ALPHA and we are here to provide input on how Notch can improve the game. We aren't trying to force our playstyle on Dchronos. Yes, I read his very very long post. Dchronos plays the game in his own little way and apparently any of us wanting a BETTER, more challenging game, is apparently us trying to force our playstyle upon Dchronos.
I think we all agree that many menu options are desired. Why somebody would want to play survival mode with no challenge(the current incarnation) doesn't make sense to many here. We are just providing our input on how to make the game better. We don't have a say in how this game is created...all we can do is provide our opinions and let Notch do his magic.
Oh Good Gravy...
You know, this type of alarmist tactic is nothing I haven't heard before. Mostly it's the work of conspiracy theorist morons, like 9/11 Truthers, Moon Hoaxers, Global Warning Deniers, Anti-Evolutionists, Anti-Abortionists, NWO/Illuminati believers...the list goes on and on. All these people saying, "IT'S THE TRUTH! WE HAVE THE EVIDENCE! LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE!" And as much as I'd like to debate you and show you precisely where your logic has gone wrong, I won't, because it's a waste of my breath and there's no way to make you accept your mistaken conclusion, whether it was an honest mistake or not.
I'm quoting your whole post just so you won't ***** at me for ignoring you. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just not going debate a premise based entirely on a fantasy theory (i.e. can't make lanterns w/o visiting hell.) No offense intended, hope you understand.
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode.
“Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
Here's the deal -- I've already made my objections known about how the difficulty system is utterly BROKEN right now. The player should NOT be forced to choose between "No Monsters Anywhere" and "MONSTERS FROM HELL!!!" As much as I've been enjoying the "Resident Evil" spawns at night, if the game was like this forever, I'd eventually burn out and quit playing. (There's a reason that Survival Horror games always have SOME kind of storyline which is resolved at the end, for good or evil -- but since this is an open-ended sandbox game, there will be no end to the horror, none at all, no hope of salvation for any of us...)
Now, I've been informed that since the game's still in development, this issue can't be fixed until the game moves from Alpha to Beta. And you know what? I'm perfectly fine with that. I've even worked it into my roleplay -- my character (a veteran starfighter who's crash-landed on this uncharted, hostile planet) has finally contacted one of his army's command ships (Starship Alpha) who has said, "Sorry, we cannot assist you or even acknowledge your presence due to the ongoing war with the Zoltans...check back in a year when Starship Beta passes through this quadrant."
I'm confident that the final game will have multiple difficulty modes, ranging from Peaceful (as it is now) to Serene (monsters spawn only in caves, but overland is safe day or night) to Cautious (some overland spawn, but rare & confined to specific areas like mountains or forests) to Advanced (nights are dangerous, but not as dangerous as they are now -- think Oblivion/Fallout style). And yes, they should keep the current Alpha Survival mode as an option, and perhaps other modes where not even days are safe...and then everyone is happy!
Notch seems like one of the good ones, I'll grant him that. He also likes to **** with people's minds, and I like that about him, too. Which is why I won't debate the lantern/hell topic anymore -- it's a ridiculous premise with zero basis in fact. (Except for those gullible enough to not recognize that Notch was joking, obviously.)
Now, if Notch were one of the bad developers, he might do stupid **** like making lanterns require super-duper-rare materials only found in Hell. But that would alienate so many people (esp. the Builders, who are this game's CORE audience, you Survivalists keep that in mind, will ya) that people would abandon the game in droves. It would be economic suicide. But that's unlikely to happen, I think...as far as I can tell, Notch is a stand-up guy who listens to his community and want to make the best game possible for as many people as possible, but he's not above maximizing his profits, either. :smile.gif: I think that's great!
Yeah...isn't that awesome?? This game's already well-balanced and bug-free (except for spawning/difficulty issues) and the designer is STILL adding stuff. Just imagine what it will look like when it's finished...not to mention what it will look like when the modders start working on it!
[,,,,] [Pig] [,,,,] [,,,,]
[Pig] [Pig] [Pig] [Pig] = my response to anyone who recommends Peaceful Mode.
“Two things are infinite: the Universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the the Universe.” -- Albert Einstein
I love how people feel that having uncovered fire on their wooden walls leading to disaster would be unreasonable....
Hmm let me just light my torch... Ahh!
Now that he is, Even more people are complaining. *sigh*
Back in my day, sheep dropped brown mushrooms, and by golly we... Hated it, pretty much.
Of course, I am aware that MineCraft is still in development. Since Indev, less emphasis has been placed on fighting mobs. There is no longer a point system to reward mob killing. No doubt, Survival Mode is no longer exclusively about fighting mobs. However, a good portion of the game is still about fighting mobs. This has nothing to do with "elitism," "hardcore" gaming or selfishly trying to impose a narrow idea of how a game should be played on everyone else.
Attempting to please everyone will, in turn, please no-one. This is not a universally applicable rule, but it does apply in this context. Survival Mode revolves around crafting, hostile mobs and finite resources. If people want a version of MineCraft with all the challenges of Survival Mode, save hostile mobs, I think it would be more prudent to be honest about that desire and to petition Notch accordingly. If people just want an update to Creative Mode, the same applies. That, as opposed to demanding Survival Mode be nerfed or watered down to suit your own, personal preferences.
Your original evidence is pretty specious at best. However I do admit I sort of like the idea of lanterns requiring a material from hell. This would satisfy my idea of making it difficult to acquire lanterns on the first few nights forcing you to use this new torch mechanic until you learn where to find the materials you need for lanterns.
Also I kind of like the idea of having to make periodic expeditions into the wilds of hell in search for materials. This has the potential to be a bit challenging for a change.
This is where you FAIL. Now stop spreading YOUR LIES. No one here that is agrueing that blocks should be from hell Super rare. Let's repeat that...
NO ONE HERE SAID THE BLOCK WOULD BE SUPER RARE.
Let's say it to gether.
NO ONE HERE HAS SAID THE BLOCK WILL BE SUPER RARE.
Now let's say it one more time to drive the point into that skull!
JUST SINCE THE BLOCK IS IN HELL, DOES NOT MAKE IT SUPER RARE.
You have avoided the agruement for your own crazy ideas or another reason that the block COULD BE NOT EVEN RARE TO THE POINT WHERE EVER PLAYER COULD HAVE A STACK OF 64+ FROM JUST SPENDING AN THIRY MINUTES INSIDE HELL. The only part hard about finding a common block in hell, would be getting there.
Here is a little game developer's trick for you; if you want some one to go into an area, put a carrot into that area. Hell was looking up to be an optional area. Sure you could use it as fast travel and there was sure to be nice materials from it, but other then that, nothing that was "required" to survive the normal minecraft world. So to do that (since it is obvious that he wants players to go into and explore hell), Notch needed to place an item that we need (not want) inside of it. It could be as commoon as dirt, all it had to be was inside of hell.
Your arguement is basicly; "I just don't want to go into hell even if the item could be as common as dirt or as rare as diamond". You just want to avoid going inside hell.
TL;DR
Let's go over some points...
1) The Torch -> Lantern change is stupid of Lanterns are made just as easy as Torches (this we can agree on I hope). By easy I mean anything from just requiring glass, stone, and a torch. For it to not be easy but not be hard, it would require iron and some glass for the lanterns.
2) Just since an item is from hell, does not make it super rare
Now, let's talk about how those to mash up nicely together. What if Notch wanted lanters to be as easy to make as torches? That would make the first point moot. The common material as common as coal would make the first point moot since no one would even bother to make torches. How does a developer solve this type of issue? If they have "another world" (in this case hell), place the common material there. It would be just as easy to create lanterns as you do torchers, but the only hard part is getting to hell.
The people demanding special accommodations. Specifically those asking notch to make it impossible to build on anything other than peaceful mode. The game "as it is" accommodates all forms of play. Personally I don't play on peaceful mode. I enjoy the added challenge of dealing with mobs (especially when exploring caves,) and I enjoy building. So I can understand why some people will only ever play in peaceful mode and why others want to play in a very hard, constant siege mode. What I don't understand is why some people want to break the game to prevent others from enjoying the building aspect of it.
As far as I can tell, Notch is committed to both forms of play. If survival means spending all your time either fighting mobs, or building traps, what are bookcases for? why even have permanent light? Notch is certainly making it harder and stretching out the time from day one to having a safe fortified base, but he isn't making any form of play impossible. At least as far as I can tell.
Just since you have to get an item from hell, does not make it impossible to do the stuff you would do now with torches. Only thing that changes is you need to spend a little bit more time gathering materials. Oh and it is the people who won't adapt to change and doesn't want change that is the selfish.
I like to build in minecraft and I build on hard mode. I stripped a 64x64 piece of land, drained ocean, and other stuff for me to build my project. My goal is to build a 16x16 tower and a 32x32 castle on bed rock. It's not just going to be a castle and tower made out of anything. It's going to be made out of obsidian. On top of that, the tower is going to go from bed rock to the sky's limit. I am going to have to dirt mold lava springs since I am very limited on only two diamond picks.
I don't care that lanters will require a hell material. I will go into hell to get what I need. Heck I am going to start a new save and build the same tower I am now with lanterns for light instead of my current lava + torches.
-Notch, on the Minecraft "about" page.
So many developers try to appease everyone and don't want to annoy or alienate anyone and end up making a watered-down game that may sell well, but isn't that good. Many games today are too easy.
Notch should stick to his vision of making survival mode hard. If he listens to the whiners than want a glorified creative mode, it would be to the game's detriment. I think building is only fun and meaningful if it's something that is achieved despite obstacles. Given enough time, anyone could build anything in creative mode, yet I don't find these things that impressive--the real achievements are things that are built with limited resources in a world full of things trying to kill you.
The game is far too easy now. If you can survive the first night or two, you can effective avoid danger entirely for the rest of the game. In this thread people are saying it'd be too hard to permanently light a huge complex five miles across, which boggles my mind. Making a huge structure like that should be hard and require lots of resources. If you only have resources to light a medium or small area, only build a medium or small structure until you have enough resources. You're not entitled to easily construct and perma-light some huge magnificent fortress.
The challenge of survival mode shouldn't effectively end after the first night or two after which you are able to bathe miles and miles of landscape, caves, and buildings with permanent-light. If you're complaining that lighting a huge area is going to be hard (if this information about lanterns ends up being true), then that's because it should be.