he's human. he's made MANY mistakes and he's not even remotely a professional developer. dude has skills for sure but professional? hardly.
Really not a professional developer, i think you missed a step in that 12 point argument because Notch IS a professional developer! From His about page on Minecraft:
I had recently quit my job as a game developer to be able to focus more on indie game dev during my free time, and I was looking for a new game to develop. I had a few ideas floating around, but most required really long development times
Oh look at that he was a game developer and he acutally quit his well paying job (look it up you'll die when you see how much money on average a game developer can make...... hes also recongized a an indie game developer and he has been and now is still making a living based on developing games....I guess that does make him a professional developer dosn't it ;P
Does that mean we shouldn't be critcial, no, but being critical means being construtive, not OMG NOTCH YOUR LAZY, or NO UPDTZ FOR WEEKS DO I NOW! Theres a huge diffrence, this is Alpha, yes we have heard that 5 million times but what does it mean, it means the game is not in its final state, it means it will change, it means there will be bugs, it means there will be issues, it means there will be unfisnshed things in the game, there may even be broken things in the game, ALPHA is not a BETA, Alpha is for the continued development of the game and it's engine, introducing new gameplay ideas, items, and play styles to make sure they work as intended and do not break the acutal game (cause crashes). BETA thats in the game and testing the hell out of it, checking for balance issues, fun issues, explotatiion issues and so forth. Thats the primary diffrence bewteen the two.
Should we complain about features, YES but be constructive, should we give new ideas YES but be constructive, should we report bugs YES but they may not be fixed at this time but will be noted for a future look, should we be report we think notch is lazy because he hasn't updated in a few weeks even though hes working on the game, trying to setup his offices to get other people to work on the game too, and also getting married, YES but be constructive! If your going to complain then do it in a construtive, helpfull way, saying something sucks isn't enough say why and what you think may need to be done, thats consructive, thats helpfull and who knows notch may even do it!
Anywayz sorry for the speech. Keep mining and watch out for :SSSS:!!!
when i said he wasn't professional i meant that he doesn't conduct his business in a professional manner. he's made promises that he hasn't come close to keeping and he got thousands of people to give him money based on those promises. people may have bought the game to save money for when it goes beta and full, but in the end, he is still charging people for an unfinished, buggy game based on the promise of updates that he rarely delivers. excuses are easy to make. he doesn't make any. he just doesn't say anything. that's not professional.
as i said, he's a skilled programmer. just not professional.
when i said he wasn't professional i meant that he doesn't conduct his business in a professional manner. he's made promises that he hasn't come close to keeping and he got thousands of people to give him money based on those promises. people may have bought the game to save money for when it goes beta and full, but in the end, he is still charging people for an unfinished, buggy game based on the promise of updates that he rarely delivers.
Really? As far as I have heard and understood, first we were all warned it's an unflinshed game, okay check, second that updates have slowed why he is working on getting the company up and running, okay check, and three that there will be bugs and he has two lists he keeps track of, features he wants to add, and bugs...okay check.... but wait you said...
excuses are easy to make. he doesn't make any. he just doesn't say anything. that's not professional.
Thats funny where did I get all this information from, the forums, nope that isn't it, try his dev blog/twitter...he acutally SAY something on there...wow he communicates...look at that. Seriously how can you make a statement that he dosn't say anything when just on october 2nd and september 28th he made those posts on his dev blog,
And your right about one thing, he is human, so he can't respond to every single complaint and whinner, or even fanboy for that matter on the fourm, hes busy, we know becuase he HAS said something!
i don't give a flying **** about him setting up a company. i don't give a flying **** about his upcoming marriage or how he's spending the money he's made on this game to move into a new apartement with two saunas. i, like most other intelligent people, want to know what he's doing about the issues with software he's selling us. the only thing you die-hard defenders can do is keep prattling on about how it's alpha software. great, we all think you're totally awesome because you can use buzzwords. we know what alpha software means. we know there are going to be bugs. we also know that part of the reason we paid for alpha software was because of promises of updates, of which we get none.
make all the excuses you want. at the end of the day you just look stupid.
i don't give a flying **** about him setting up a company. i don't give a flying **** about his upcoming marriage or how he's spending the money he's made on this game to move into a new apartement with two saunas. i, like most other intelligent people, want to know what he's doing about the issues with software he's selling us. the only thing you die-hard defenders can do is keep prattling on about how it's alpha software. great, we all think you're totally awesome because you can use buzzwords. we know what alpha software means. we know there are going to be bugs. we also know that part of the reason we paid for alpha software was because of promises of updates, of which we get none.
make all the excuses you want. at the end of the day you just look stupid.
And your argument falls apart, you want an update now, I agree who dosn't but whning about it isn't enough, you said he dosn't talk i've shown he has, you say he dosn't talk about anything about the sofware were at, i've shown he does and has, and still you go on and on, this is where I stop I will not reply to anymore of this untill you can make a vaild counter-point, thats the point of debate. I have taken every issue, every complant you have and show a vaid response to it.
And the best response you can come back with is,
your reading comprehension is very poor.
cute, but pointless to the debate. If you want this to become a shouting match try else where, you don't like the game or how it's being portayed in your point of view fine, but if you can't make a vaild argument then don't waste our own time trying to convience us all your right and were wrong. Was I trying to conviece you, your wrong i'm right, no i'm trying to convince you that your thoughts and opinions are flawed and why so you can re-examine them and make up your own mind. Word of advice, the only person who can change anothers opinion, is no-one, only they can change there own opinion.
I'll agree to disagree, I don't have a problem with that, thats civil, I think your logic is flawed and false, you think I can't read, fine, i'll leave it at that, and let everyone else make up there own minds witch may not even agree with ethier of us. Thats called life, thats called humanity, thats called an open mind. In the mean time I will play my games, continue my next college term and play minecraft, because i'm a fanboy, no because I like the game and I think it will only get better. Take care.
lol. go back and read (and try to comprehend what i've written). you are really making yourself look stupid by deflecting. you've proven nothing. college kid. now i get it.
He really has to bring this one in on time or there'll be a hell of a stink.
Yep. And you think he doesn't know that? But judging the guy beforehand is even more silly. Let's wait and see.
Quote from Crosbie »
Multiple additions to game = increased chance of breaking the game. There are sure to be several bugs added.
Yeah. Good thing the game is in Alpha, right? You know, that time in development where you're meant to add all the core features, buggy or not, so you can move to beta where you'll actually spend most of the time polishing the game and fixing bugs.
People now have a month to design the game in their heads, until they are convinced they've cracked it and know exactly what Hell will be like (for instance), only to be furiously disappointed about the lies they imagine they've been fed when it turns out to be what's in Notch's head instead.
Honestly, it's their problem for being unrealistic idiots. If they actually end up trying it and not liking it, it means they probably wouldn't like it anyway even if it was a surprise, so what could Notch possibly do?
Quote from Crosbie »
He'd be better advised to return to silent mini-updates.
Some things can't be released in tiny updates. You can't perfect biomes within a week. Big changes demand extra time to get stable and satisfactory enough for a release, and the game is reaching a point where tiny updates aren't healthy for major progress. Tiny updates should be for tweaks and bug fixes, not new features.
Remember that this game is still in alpha, and it's going to have bugs, I think people are too uptight about the whole thing. Things might be different if the game was full and released.
i think it should be a bannable offense for people to keep saying "remember this game is in alpha".
Yeah. Let's punish people that are rational and realistic about the state of the game.
you guys give no end of **** to the people that post the same questions over and over. it's JUST as annoying everytime someone has a gripe (legitimate or not) to have someone come in spouting "it's alpha software guys".
you guys give no end of **** to the people that post the same questions over and over. it's JUST as annoying everytime someone has a gripe (legitimate or not) to have someone come in spouting "it's alpha software guys".
I see where you're coming from, as I've seen the "it's alpha" response being spouted around in some very valid topics. But in this case, it's very relevant. Alpha is meant to be the part of development where you add all the features. Beta is when you fix the bugs.
I think its great that notch is making a big holiday update. I don't really care about bugs as it gives a player something to think about to move around it. Also notch has missed quite a few updates maybe he felt he owed the family of MC something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Games are said to rot brains, not MineCraft. It just steals them.
Check out classic ZTZ's freebuild!
Announcing a monolithic mega-update with a specified release date and lots of exciting but controversial features is a strategy laced with disaster.
- He really has to bring this one in on time or there'll be a hell of a stink.
- Multiple additions to game = increased chance of breaking the game. There are sure to be several bugs added.
- People now have a month to design the game in their heads, until they are convinced they've cracked it and know exactly what Hell will be like (for instance), only to be furiously disappointed about the lies they imagine they've been fed when it turns out to be what's in Notch's head instead.
He'd be better advised to return to silent mini-updates.
I just wanted to point out that anyone who's played InDev and isn't a pansy already knows what a Hell biome is like. If someone else pointed this out, my apologies, I didn't read through the thread.
Concerning the topic at hand it amazes me how many expert developers and publishers there are on this forum, the OP is quite correct about large updates *cough* do far *cough* more harm *cough* than good *cough**cough*
I see your point, but that's a bit different. Minecraft is still developing its core features. Those examples are expansions of the core features long after they were already well established, in order to keep the game fresh.
It's unfair to compare that to what Notch's trying to do here, which is to finish the basic idea of what Minecraft should be.
So it's a valid point, but not so much in the current context.
I admit it does sound like a lot, and I'm sure he's going to be quite busy coding this month. But he does have new help now too, so maybe that's a part of why this is happening.
Also much of what is promised here is actually things that are either easy to quickly implement, or are things that have already been in the works for quite a while already.
Explore a scary new realm!
The hell world basically already exists. We've seen it in indev. The portal in/portal out behavior is new yes, but who knows how long he's actually been working on that? He's been planning that one for a while anyhow. Also portals were created in the 3rd party mod of runecraft and work quite cleanly. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see something similar used here.
Fight scary new monsters!
This is perhaps the biggest unknown to me. Notches philosophy is for the classic style mobs with very simple behavioral rules which makes them fairly predictable. While predictable does often mean easy, it doesn't have to be. I suspect he does have some ideas in mind already here.
Experience scarier depths!
Changing the light level rules is actually a trivial change. This is probably just a few lines of code.
Be scared of the Dark!
Changing torches is also trivial. One recipe for lanterns, a tweak to the torch and flint and steel code, and it's done. Not that big a deal from a coding standpoint.
Catch scary fish!
This is new yes, but it will also probably not be all that complicated right away either. It is also something that was clearly already "planned" so who knows how much he already has ready here. We already do have fishing poles after all.
Carve scary jack-o-lanterns!
Okay, one new object, and carving. Probably still not that big of a deal as an update.
Keep track of the scary time!
A watch. One single item, one recipe, and shows you the time of day somehow. Probably in a simple symbolic way like the compass. Doesn't sound too complicated.
And more!
Biomes has been on the table for a long time. They basically already exist, we've seen them as whole world environments in indev. We also know he's been working on integrating them all seamlessly into a single world model. We know he's close, it's hardly a stretch for it to be done in a month especially since it was promised last month. ;P
Music and Sound, is probably someone elses job. From a coding standpoint there is essentially nothing to do here and we know he didn't write the music before either, someone else did.
In summary, I would think the new monsters and biomes are probably the biggest projects on his plate for now. Everything else is pretty trivial to go ahead and line up in time.
He's got new help, with the announcement of this update I can only assume that is beginning to pay off. I am expecting that he will meet this deadline. At worst, I figure that some of these features might get trimmed a bit to meet the deadline, although I think completing everything on this list should be very possible.
Wow. Posted in the morning and only just got in to see the response.
To those pointing out that it's alpha software: yes, I understand what alpha software is. My point is that introducing features one at a time to your team of testers - which is what we've all agreed to be, right? - is a wiser choice than introducing several at once. Making multiple changes at the same time complicates the tracking and diagnosis of bugs, and whilst some features might necessarily go in tandem, this update represents a whole bunch.
And yes, the main point of the post was indeed the suggestion that smaller, silent updates are better - that's why I put the sentence in its own paragraph at the end. :wink.gif: But not because I want more updates - rather for the sake of Notch's own stress levels.
Really not a professional developer, i think you missed a step in that 12 point argument because Notch IS a professional developer! From His about page on Minecraft:
Oh look at that he was a game developer and he acutally quit his well paying job (look it up you'll die when you see how much money on average a game developer can make...... hes also recongized a an indie game developer and he has been and now is still making a living based on developing games....I guess that does make him a professional developer dosn't it ;P
Does that mean we shouldn't be critcial, no, but being critical means being construtive, not OMG NOTCH YOUR LAZY, or NO UPDTZ FOR WEEKS DO I NOW! Theres a huge diffrence, this is Alpha, yes we have heard that 5 million times but what does it mean, it means the game is not in its final state, it means it will change, it means there will be bugs, it means there will be issues, it means there will be unfisnshed things in the game, there may even be broken things in the game, ALPHA is not a BETA, Alpha is for the continued development of the game and it's engine, introducing new gameplay ideas, items, and play styles to make sure they work as intended and do not break the acutal game (cause crashes). BETA thats in the game and testing the hell out of it, checking for balance issues, fun issues, explotatiion issues and so forth. Thats the primary diffrence bewteen the two.
Should we complain about features, YES but be constructive, should we give new ideas YES but be constructive, should we report bugs YES but they may not be fixed at this time but will be noted for a future look, should we be report we think notch is lazy because he hasn't updated in a few weeks even though hes working on the game, trying to setup his offices to get other people to work on the game too, and also getting married, YES but be constructive! If your going to complain then do it in a construtive, helpfull way, saying something sucks isn't enough say why and what you think may need to be done, thats consructive, thats helpfull and who knows notch may even do it!
Anywayz sorry for the speech. Keep mining and watch out for :SSSS:!!!
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CavGunners SMP Server (I Play SMP Here)
Staff Member of Warriorlabs.net, click here for more.
as i said, he's a skilled programmer. just not professional.
Really? As far as I have heard and understood, first we were all warned it's an unflinshed game, okay check, second that updates have slowed why he is working on getting the company up and running, okay check, and three that there will be bugs and he has two lists he keeps track of, features he wants to add, and bugs...okay check.... but wait you said...
Thats funny where did I get all this information from, the forums, nope that isn't it, try his dev blog/twitter...he acutally SAY something on there...wow he communicates...look at that. Seriously how can you make a statement that he dosn't say anything when just on october 2nd and september 28th he made those posts on his dev blog,
And your right about one thing, he is human, so he can't respond to every single complaint and whinner, or even fanboy for that matter on the fourm, hes busy, we know becuase he HAS said something!
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CavGunners SMP Server (I Play SMP Here)
Staff Member of Warriorlabs.net, click here for more.
i don't give a flying **** about him setting up a company. i don't give a flying **** about his upcoming marriage or how he's spending the money he's made on this game to move into a new apartement with two saunas. i, like most other intelligent people, want to know what he's doing about the issues with software he's selling us. the only thing you die-hard defenders can do is keep prattling on about how it's alpha software. great, we all think you're totally awesome because you can use buzzwords. we know what alpha software means. we know there are going to be bugs. we also know that part of the reason we paid for alpha software was because of promises of updates, of which we get none.
make all the excuses you want. at the end of the day you just look stupid.
We can't allow Notch to hunt any more human beings! It's wrong; I don't care if it's legal in Sweden!
Oh wait, nm.
Thought you meant this....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_dangerous_game
>______>
And your argument falls apart, you want an update now, I agree who dosn't but whning about it isn't enough, you said he dosn't talk i've shown he has, you say he dosn't talk about anything about the sofware were at, i've shown he does and has, and still you go on and on, this is where I stop I will not reply to anymore of this untill you can make a vaild counter-point, thats the point of debate. I have taken every issue, every complant you have and show a vaid response to it.
And the best response you can come back with is, cute, but pointless to the debate. If you want this to become a shouting match try else where, you don't like the game or how it's being portayed in your point of view fine, but if you can't make a vaild argument then don't waste our own time trying to convience us all your right and were wrong. Was I trying to conviece you, your wrong i'm right, no i'm trying to convince you that your thoughts and opinions are flawed and why so you can re-examine them and make up your own mind. Word of advice, the only person who can change anothers opinion, is no-one, only they can change there own opinion.
I'll agree to disagree, I don't have a problem with that, thats civil, I think your logic is flawed and false, you think I can't read, fine, i'll leave it at that, and let everyone else make up there own minds witch may not even agree with ethier of us. Thats called life, thats called humanity, thats called an open mind. In the mean time I will play my games, continue my next college term and play minecraft, because i'm a fanboy, no because I like the game and I think it will only get better. Take care.
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CavGunners SMP Server (I Play SMP Here)
Staff Member of Warriorlabs.net, click here for more.
Yep. And you think he doesn't know that? But judging the guy beforehand is even more silly. Let's wait and see.
Yeah. Good thing the game is in Alpha, right? You know, that time in development where you're meant to add all the core features, buggy or not, so you can move to beta where you'll actually spend most of the time polishing the game and fixing bugs.
From Wikipedia: "The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete."
Honestly, it's their problem for being unrealistic idiots. If they actually end up trying it and not liking it, it means they probably wouldn't like it anyway even if it was a surprise, so what could Notch possibly do?
Some things can't be released in tiny updates. You can't perfect biomes within a week. Big changes demand extra time to get stable and satisfactory enough for a release, and the game is reaching a point where tiny updates aren't healthy for major progress. Tiny updates should be for tweaks and bug fixes, not new features.
MINECRAFT FACTS: BIG LIST OF WHAT NOTCH HAS ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT THE PLANNED FEATURES OF MINECRAFT
Yeah. Let's punish people that are rational and realistic about the state of the game.
MINECRAFT FACTS: BIG LIST OF WHAT NOTCH HAS ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT THE PLANNED FEATURES OF MINECRAFT
you guys give no end of **** to the people that post the same questions over and over. it's JUST as annoying everytime someone has a gripe (legitimate or not) to have someone come in spouting "it's alpha software guys".
we ****ing know it's alpha software.
I see where you're coming from, as I've seen the "it's alpha" response being spouted around in some very valid topics. But in this case, it's very relevant. Alpha is meant to be the part of development where you add all the features. Beta is when you fix the bugs.
MINECRAFT FACTS: BIG LIST OF WHAT NOTCH HAS ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT THE PLANNED FEATURES OF MINECRAFT
Check out classic ZTZ's freebuild!
I just wanted to point out that anyone who's played InDev and isn't a pansy already knows what a Hell biome is like. If someone else pointed this out, my apologies, I didn't read through the thread.
I see your point, but that's a bit different. Minecraft is still developing its core features. Those examples are expansions of the core features long after they were already well established, in order to keep the game fresh.
It's unfair to compare that to what Notch's trying to do here, which is to finish the basic idea of what Minecraft should be.
So it's a valid point, but not so much in the current context.
MINECRAFT FACTS: BIG LIST OF WHAT NOTCH HAS ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT THE PLANNED FEATURES OF MINECRAFT
Also much of what is promised here is actually things that are either easy to quickly implement, or are things that have already been in the works for quite a while already.
Explore a scary new realm!
The hell world basically already exists. We've seen it in indev. The portal in/portal out behavior is new yes, but who knows how long he's actually been working on that? He's been planning that one for a while anyhow. Also portals were created in the 3rd party mod of runecraft and work quite cleanly. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see something similar used here.
Fight scary new monsters!
This is perhaps the biggest unknown to me. Notches philosophy is for the classic style mobs with very simple behavioral rules which makes them fairly predictable. While predictable does often mean easy, it doesn't have to be. I suspect he does have some ideas in mind already here.
Experience scarier depths!
Changing the light level rules is actually a trivial change. This is probably just a few lines of code.
Be scared of the Dark!
Changing torches is also trivial. One recipe for lanterns, a tweak to the torch and flint and steel code, and it's done. Not that big a deal from a coding standpoint.
Catch scary fish!
This is new yes, but it will also probably not be all that complicated right away either. It is also something that was clearly already "planned" so who knows how much he already has ready here. We already do have fishing poles after all.
Carve scary jack-o-lanterns!
Okay, one new object, and carving. Probably still not that big of a deal as an update.
Keep track of the scary time!
A watch. One single item, one recipe, and shows you the time of day somehow. Probably in a simple symbolic way like the compass. Doesn't sound too complicated.
And more!
Biomes has been on the table for a long time. They basically already exist, we've seen them as whole world environments in indev. We also know he's been working on integrating them all seamlessly into a single world model. We know he's close, it's hardly a stretch for it to be done in a month especially since it was promised last month. ;P
Music and Sound, is probably someone elses job. From a coding standpoint there is essentially nothing to do here and we know he didn't write the music before either, someone else did.
In summary, I would think the new monsters and biomes are probably the biggest projects on his plate for now. Everything else is pretty trivial to go ahead and line up in time.
He's got new help, with the announcement of this update I can only assume that is beginning to pay off. I am expecting that he will meet this deadline. At worst, I figure that some of these features might get trimmed a bit to meet the deadline, although I think completing everything on this list should be very possible.
Your dialog sounds like a bad movie. Relax and stop treating this game like it's a finished product. It's in ALPHA for Zeus' sake.
To those pointing out that it's alpha software: yes, I understand what alpha software is. My point is that introducing features one at a time to your team of testers - which is what we've all agreed to be, right? - is a wiser choice than introducing several at once. Making multiple changes at the same time complicates the tracking and diagnosis of bugs, and whilst some features might necessarily go in tandem, this update represents a whole bunch.
And yes, the main point of the post was indeed the suggestion that smaller, silent updates are better - that's why I put the sentence in its own paragraph at the end. :wink.gif: But not because I want more updates - rather for the sake of Notch's own stress levels.
A Pattern Language for Minecraft
Minecraft Facts: A Sources Thread
hold up ...
this is game is only in alpha? since when?