You can recover torches (obsidian, wood, lava, rails too), so lanterns should be the same way.
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The above design is probably the best mix of requiring more resources than a regular torch, but still being relatively light on cost in exchange for a permanent light source.
As has been said before in this thread, Notch already noted that he would be replacing the current torch ID with the lantern ID, and moving the current torches to a new ID - this would cause all currently-placed torches to transmogrify into lanterns.
As for the "new torches", they could be used for for quick exploration, midnight expeditions, or emergency lighting. Lanterns will be for permanent "residence lighting", open caving/mining operations, or any of the other current uses for them.
I welcome the addition of more difficulty - and in this case, if you aren't totally satisfied with the change, make torches from now till the end of the month, and you'll be set for some time to come.
If you're going to make this change, you might as well just remove torches. No one is going to use them any more.
Bad change.
If you're going to have iron pickaxes, you might as well just remove wooden pickaxes. No one is going to use them anymore.
They're a transition. You don't get the awesome stuff till you use the crappy stuff. That's the rule of every videogame. This is no different. Torches are a temporary light source until you can get the tools and resources to make a perminant one. Just like almost every tool in the game so far.
Wooden tools are stupid. I don't think I've ever made more than one. I make a wood pickaxe, and that's it. It's a worthless transition. But given that it's not an inconvenience, it's not something worth complaining about.
Torches that go out is a massive inconvenience and completely stupid. At best they'll be annoying, and at worst they'll be worthless.
If a "burned out" torch is still partially lit - providing the weakest light at a radius of 1, allowing it to still be seen at a distance and provide vital guidance - I approve of this change.
If a "burned out" torch goes completely dark, this kinda sucks. I get lost enough as it is underground, even with my plethora of infinitorches. Even dim beacons would help me figure out where I've been, and if anything that would help me more because I'll be able to tell how long ago I was there initially.
This creates x4 Lanterns makes sensce and then Iron isn't wasted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I love how supporters of finite torches say they want a more challanging game and then in later threads talk about using peaceful mode when building."
If you're going to make this change, you might as well just remove torches. No one is going to use them any more.
Bad change.
Exactly this.
Not to mention how stupid it will be to explore a cave system, place torches that will go out..... and in order to go back through the cave and find your torches to reignite them.. you'll have to place MORE torches just to see your way back through...
I can hardly wait! Combined with increased darkness danger in depths and more difficult enemies, the game finally begins to earn it's name. (the survival name, that is) Even formally civilized areas will be ominous if all the torches have burnt out. And imagine if burnt out torches actually raised the likelihood of certain extra-freaky things to spawn.
Also, I bet lanterns will be non-stacking.
edit: If safety requires more brightness at depth, I bet dead torches will still give off enough light to see. Just not enough to effect spawning.
edit edit: good, someone else noticed this likelihood
If a "burned out" torch is still partially lit - providing the weakest light at a radius of 1, allowing it to still be seen at a distance and provide vital guidance - I approve of this change.
If a "burned out" torch goes completely dark, this kinda sucks. I get lost enough as it is underground, even with my plethora of infinitorches. Even dim beacons would help me figure out where I've been, and if anything that would help me more because I'll be able to tell how long ago I was there initially.
I agree with this. If torches go completely black, I probably won't even notice them anymore.
I quite like this idea, to be honest. Depends on how long the torches last before you have to relight them, I suppose.
My initial thoughts on the crafting recipe was something as simple as:
You'd only have to worry about mining a crapload of sand then, but I guess we have to wait and see that too. Would be nice of lanterns gave out more light than torches too. Hmm...
I can see why people might be annoyed about it though.
How about you DON'T EXPLORE MASSIVE CAVE SYSTEMS FIRST THING YOU DO.
This is not a complicated concept. You have temporary light sources so that when you hole up in the night you can survive. You stick to that plan until you can build lanterns, then you use them to light up the cave. The cave is not and should not be your first destination and goal. Start with the wooden pickaxe, start with the small room as your home, start with the small and safe. THEN move on to exploring the dark and deep and dangerous. By the point you SHOULD be exploring deep caves, you've got enough lanterns.
Quote from Trazka »
Like it's one of the easiest items to make and yet it's one of the best items, once you make torches you are basically safe.
This sentence right here sums up everything that is RIGHT with the torch update.
No one forces you to place torches in the first place. You may like looking at a pure black screen but it's obvious the rest of us actually like to be able to see what were doing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I love how supporters of finite torches say they want a more challanging game and then in later threads talk about using peaceful mode when building."
Like it's one of the easiest items to make and yet it's one of the best items, once you make torches you are basically safe.
This sentence right here sums up everything that is RIGHT with the torch update.
The best item in the game is no item at all, I just dig a 2 square deep hole with my bare hands and put a block over my head and I'm completely safe. The game is always going to be as challenging as you want it to be. I don't mind the lantern update, but saying somehow that this game is *harder* if you make it much harder to permanently light things, or *too easy* if torches are infinite is insane.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What's off this cliff? *bump* AAaaaaah, damn you sheep!
I like this to be honest, and if the lanterns will be lit while we carry them i'd be so much more awesome. I hope we can put the lanterns on the ceiling.
Like I've said, I will use lanterns in caves and mines regardless of how they look. I'm not going to explore any mine or cave without having the ability to secure it as I go. And if it comes to pass that I can't do that anymore, I simply won't mine anymore. I'll stay on the surface, and build with stone, wood, dirt, sand, and glass. If it's not worthwhile to get iron, gold, and diamonds then I won't. Needless tedium =/= fun, whether it's for "realism", aesthetics, whatever else.
If you want caves to be more dangerous and exciting, make the mobs more dangerous and exciting. Don't make them infinite, or exceptionally difficult to stop being infinite. Don't make it feel like work to overcome them. The idea that needing finite torches to make caves more dangerous is going about it all the wrong way, IMHO.
And don't tell me to play on peaceful. I play on normal, because I like the mob encounters. Keeps me surprised, keeps my viewers entertained, keeps things interesting. But they are an obstacle that can be overcome, and I like that too. One reason I explore caves is that I know I'm securing them as I go along. I only have to face the mobs once to have earned my cave being mine. The diamonds, etc, are the reward for that effort.
Players shouldn't be punished for exploring, which is exactly what finite torches accomplish. Or being forced to mine for iron to make lanterns a viable alternative.
So, basically, it is currently far too easy for you to ignore any sort of threat, with the exception of caves that happen to spawn lots of monsters before you can light them. I for one am more interested in the survival and exploration aspect of the game, and it is off-putting that monsters don't try to kill me once I'm in my house or in a well light area, with no threat of them ever getting to me.
I expect most of the outrage comes from people that haven't thought about the new changes much. Godmode isn't fun, and the implementation of limited torches is not a needless annoyance, as you can still see where you placed the torches before and simply relight them. This way, you won't get lost in deep cave, but you may have more difficulty progressing and making your way out of one. Since the torches are still there once they burn out, you can still see where you've explored. There are also signs in the game people. Use them..
If you're more interested in the survival and exploration of the game then why complain? You'll constantly be entering new areas that are devoid of light and open you up to danger.
Having monsters in your house is silly IMO, I enjoy having a safe haven away. The world is massive, cave systems are extensive.. there is PLENTY of threatening, dark world out there so I don't in anyway understand you calling torches godmode? thats just ridiculous. Part of the charm of this game that I enjoy is the contrast between your safe shelter and everywhere else in the world. When night is coming, you feel relief when you get back to your safe haven. Eliminate that and you eliminate to point of building and expanding. I've built complex structures and walkways and walls etc. All in an attempt to feel safe and secure and have a place to enjoy the fruits of my efforts mining and exploring the vastly bigger world of darkness and monsters.
None of your objections make any sense or remove in anyway the things you claim to like. But the opposite completely changes the game for those who play it like I do.
Some lanterns are portable, as someone else said. So these better be. :<
Unfortunately, due to the lighting system in Minecraft working on a grid, portable light sources aren't really possible.
Unless Notch turns out to have rewritten the entire thing. Which I very much doubt to be honest.
While I may not have expressed it as well as I should have, I didn't mean that (though that would be awesome). I meant break-and-collect-able. Otherwise, I might just break them all and make it a nice battle room :tongue.gif:
The above design is probably the best mix of requiring more resources than a regular torch, but still being relatively light on cost in exchange for a permanent light source.
As has been said before in this thread, Notch already noted that he would be replacing the current torch ID with the lantern ID, and moving the current torches to a new ID - this would cause all currently-placed torches to transmogrify into lanterns.
As for the "new torches", they could be used for for quick exploration, midnight expeditions, or emergency lighting. Lanterns will be for permanent "residence lighting", open caving/mining operations, or any of the other current uses for them.
I welcome the addition of more difficulty - and in this case, if you aren't totally satisfied with the change, make torches from now till the end of the month, and you'll be set for some time to come.
Wooden tools are stupid. I don't think I've ever made more than one. I make a wood pickaxe, and that's it. It's a worthless transition. But given that it's not an inconvenience, it's not something worth complaining about.
Torches that go out is a massive inconvenience and completely stupid. At best they'll be annoying, and at worst they'll be worthless.
Bad change.
If a "burned out" torch is still partially lit - providing the weakest light at a radius of 1, allowing it to still be seen at a distance and provide vital guidance - I approve of this change.
If a "burned out" torch goes completely dark, this kinda sucks. I get lost enough as it is underground, even with my plethora of infinitorches. Even dim beacons would help me figure out where I've been, and if anything that would help me more because I'll be able to tell how long ago I was there initially.
Where = String
This creates x4 Lanterns makes sensce and then Iron isn't wasted.
hurr, monsters are a massive inconvenience and are stupid. Remove monsters!
Exactly this.
Not to mention how stupid it will be to explore a cave system, place torches that will go out..... and in order to go back through the cave and find your torches to reignite them.. you'll have to place MORE torches just to see your way back through...
It's an idiotic change.
I can hardly wait! Combined with increased darkness danger in depths and more difficult enemies, the game finally begins to earn it's name. (the survival name, that is) Even formally civilized areas will be ominous if all the torches have burnt out. And imagine if burnt out torches actually raised the likelihood of certain extra-freaky things to spawn.
Also, I bet lanterns will be non-stacking.
edit: If safety requires more brightness at depth, I bet dead torches will still give off enough light to see. Just not enough to effect spawning.
edit edit: good, someone else noticed this likelihood
I agree with this. If torches go completely black, I probably won't even notice them anymore.
They better not! XD
Some lanterns are portable, as someone else said. So these better be. :<
Either way, I still have an abundance of coal. (and stacks of torches left over)
I quite like this idea, to be honest. Depends on how long the torches last before you have to relight them, I suppose.
My initial thoughts on the crafting recipe was something as simple as:
You'd only have to worry about mining a crapload of sand then, but I guess we have to wait and see that too. Would be nice of lanterns gave out more light than torches too. Hmm...
I can see why people might be annoyed about it though.
No one forces you to place torches in the first place. You may like looking at a pure black screen but it's obvious the rest of us actually like to be able to see what were doing.
I play on peaceful. Playing to survive is retarded, IN MY OPINION. I build a 5x5 cobblestone box. Bam, I'm safe. Game over. What's the point?
I play the game to build stuff - the monsters are just an annoying distraction that don't add to my gameplay. So I play on peaceful.
The best item in the game is no item at all, I just dig a 2 square deep hole with my bare hands and put a block over my head and I'm completely safe. The game is always going to be as challenging as you want it to be. I don't mind the lantern update, but saying somehow that this game is *harder* if you make it much harder to permanently light things, or *too easy* if torches are infinite is insane.
If you want caves to be more dangerous and exciting, make the mobs more dangerous and exciting. Don't make them infinite, or exceptionally difficult to stop being infinite. Don't make it feel like work to overcome them. The idea that needing finite torches to make caves more dangerous is going about it all the wrong way, IMHO.
And don't tell me to play on peaceful. I play on normal, because I like the mob encounters. Keeps me surprised, keeps my viewers entertained, keeps things interesting. But they are an obstacle that can be overcome, and I like that too. One reason I explore caves is that I know I'm securing them as I go along. I only have to face the mobs once to have earned my cave being mine. The diamonds, etc, are the reward for that effort.
Players shouldn't be punished for exploring, which is exactly what finite torches accomplish. Or being forced to mine for iron to make lanterns a viable alternative.
My humble LPs can be found here.
If you're more interested in the survival and exploration of the game then why complain? You'll constantly be entering new areas that are devoid of light and open you up to danger.
Having monsters in your house is silly IMO, I enjoy having a safe haven away. The world is massive, cave systems are extensive.. there is PLENTY of threatening, dark world out there so I don't in anyway understand you calling torches godmode? thats just ridiculous. Part of the charm of this game that I enjoy is the contrast between your safe shelter and everywhere else in the world. When night is coming, you feel relief when you get back to your safe haven. Eliminate that and you eliminate to point of building and expanding. I've built complex structures and walkways and walls etc. All in an attempt to feel safe and secure and have a place to enjoy the fruits of my efforts mining and exploring the vastly bigger world of darkness and monsters.
None of your objections make any sense or remove in anyway the things you claim to like. But the opposite completely changes the game for those who play it like I do.
While I may not have expressed it as well as I should have, I didn't mean that (though that would be awesome). I meant break-and-collect-able. Otherwise, I might just break them all and make it a nice battle room :tongue.gif: