Stop playing semantics. You know we are specifically talking about iron farms, but nice way to avoid addressing any point I made because you have no counter argument.
Using redstone to make a farm (any farm) isn't an exploit.
You made an extreme misrepresentation of my position, and it needed to be corrected.
This actually has nothing to do with redstone, because you don't need redstone to make an AFK Iron farm. You *can* use redstone, but you don't have to; same as mines, castles, stables, food farms, etc. The problem is automating iron farms, regardless of methodology.
XP farms are required to "play seriously". If you want enchanted gear -- needed for big projects -- then you need an XP grinder; Period. It is not feasible to run around killing mobs in the woods to get a set of even level III enchanted gear for any purpose.
No, they are not. They're only needed if you insist on enchanting at level 30, which is a huge waste of XP.
I get more than enough XP from normal playing to develop good armor, weapons and tools, and keep them in good repair once I've gotten them. I just use an enchanting strategy that conserves XP.
With the changes to enchanting coming up, XP farms will be even less "necessary" than ever before.
Yet you conveniently ignored every other point I made that had nothing to do with automation...
Iron farms are only using game mechanics that already exist. They aren't exploits because they are not taking advantage of any bug, or glitch.
Iron Farms, and infinite village breeders only work because they exploit flaws in village detection: namely that villages don't recognize the vertical dimension. You can move a villager or an iron golem "outside" a village by moving them four blocks vertically, rather than having to move them several scores of blocks horizontally.
Iron Farms, and infinite village breeders only work because they exploit flaws in village detection: namely that villages don't recognize the vertical dimension. You can move a villager or an iron golem "outside" a village by moving them four blocks vertically, rather than having to move them several scores of blocks horizontally.
A flaw in YOUR opinion.
The game is working exactly as it was designed when people are farming iron. This is in no way an exploit.
Iron Farms, and infinite village breeders only work because they exploit flaws in village detection: namely that villages don't recognize the vertical dimension. You can move a villager or an iron golem "outside" a village by moving them four blocks vertically, rather than having to move them several scores of blocks horizontally.
Yeah, that's the real problem. The infinite iron exploit is only the most noticeable and used problem that can create.
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I understand immersion just fine, and just so you know .. I am a game developer XD.
I actually enjoy immersion a lot. I play skyrim and install a bunch of immersive mods, such as realistic needs and frostfall ... things like that.
However, people play Skyrim differently .. and it never breaks my own immersion. I simply do not let it. How they play has very little to do with me.
As for minecraft, I particularly do not view it as a very immersive experience, not once did I ever, even well before I learned how to make these huge farms. It's way to unrealistic and boring to me if i try to play it that way.
Loaded question, loaded statements don't really matter. I should be able to play the way I like .. end of story. You can argue and whine all you like, doesn't mean I have to listen to you.
When I get immersed in a video game, I tend to consider that a part of role play. A setting is created for you to get immersed in and feel like you are there. The moment you stop role playing and talk to a friend in real life while you play, it breaks immersion. I feel like im trying to explain the definition of role playing to you. You are a player playing a role -.-. You can't have full immersion with out it. How can a person be immersed in a game if they are not role playing the character in which they are taking the role of?
If you are playing a zombie apocalypse game, you take the role of a survivor. In order to become immersed you really have to feel like you are there and you are a survivor ... that is called role playing. Not everyone gets this involved into a game. I personally do .. just not with minecraft. I see minecraft as a sandbox game, a creative game, not a game to get immersed in.
I also still don't understand how other people play breaks your immersion. How exactly do you play any game then? Everyone plays the game differently. Some people even cheat. up, down, A, B, Left, Up, right. That would mean .. someone cheating half way across the earth ... breaks your immersion. That is stupid.
Like im looking forward to the Oculus Rift to get me even further immersed .. but i still don't see how other people cheating or exploiting could break my immersion. It has nothing to do with me at all.
I also find it hilarious that you assume so many things about me just because of this argument and you are very very wrong. I am a level designer .. I create those worlds you are talking about >.<, I am an artist. I pay attention to those details because I know what immersion is and I know the small things matter.
But again .. I still don't see how I play has any effect on you at all. You wouldn't even know how I play unless you actively look for it, like you are now, discussing it.
Chances are, if you never even posted or looked in this thread, if you never got involved, you wouldn't even know me and half the people here who like this type of play style.
It's pretty much your fault your immersion gets broken.
Well well, the nerf seems to be reverted. But SVGK has still a point in my opinion. However, the "hardcore farmers" do also have a point (I still consider those farms not as abusive exploits, but only as a result of our sometimes too restricted scientific look, and I still like it very much to see those big, inventive structures). For me I don't see a reason to point out winners or losers in this kind of discussions. It is an interesting way to look at the game and Jeb just decided that he didn't want to annoy a large (?) group of complainers.
So it is still possible that the complainers weren't right, just like people as SVGK or me could be wrong, but that they just have been given what they want because of tactical reasons. There will propably be another kind or nerf implemented sometimes, but it could also not happen. The future of this kind of farming is in any case still quite uncertain, because of what Jeb also said on the tweet. He just doesn't like those farms.
Well we possibly can't be wrong. If what SVGK is saying is true .. why does he play minecraft? These farms have been apart of it for a very very long time. He got by just fine didn't he? He still played the game. I assume the same goes with you.
If it was really such a huge problem it would have been fixed a very long time ago. No one seemed to care though, no one seemed to mention it. If you all cared so much .. how come you didn't bring it up earlier? Much earlier? Explain that to me.
Do you see how we all argued ... and pointed out we don't like these changes? How come you all didn't do that when these farms became possible? You would think if SVGK was so absolutely bothered by it, and as he said 30%+ are also bothered by it .. then they would be more vocal. Really .. then where are they? Point me to these 30% of people who are extremely bothered by this and breaks their immersion.
Frankly .. It's numbers pulled out of SVGK's back end. He has no proof.
At least I can point to him of the countless youtubers and how popular these farms are .. he couldn't point me to any proof even if he tried. Because he is full of it.
Iron Farms, and infinite village breeders only work because they exploit flaws in village detection: namely that villages don't recognize the vertical dimension. You can move a villager or an iron golem "outside" a village by moving them four blocks vertically, rather than having to move them several scores of blocks horizontally.
You are giving the impression that automatic iron farms can only be built inn one fashion. There are dozens of different approaches for making one of those farms (or mob farms of any kind for that matter). There are certainly some that "exploit" shortcomings in the manner you describe, but not all of them.
Heck, just look at the vain attempt to stop sand & gravel generators, yet they persist and new ways are found to accomplish the same task (including a version that works in 1.7.4... I've tried it). Trying to stop this kind of activity is to me sort of a whack-a-mole thing far worse than trying to simply deal with player behavior.
Notch used to relish this kind of thing where a happy accident would not be considered a bug but rather a feature. The Creeper started out as something intended to be very different, but now it has become standard in Minecraft with its weird shape and behavior. No doubt there are some things that are clearly bugs, but when they don't adversely impact ordinary players and especially don't impact novice players... I fail to see why any developer time at all needs to be spent "fixing" a problem that isn't broken.
Iron Farms, and infinite village breeders only work because they exploit flaws in village detection: namely that villages don't recognize the vertical dimension. You can move a villager or an iron golem "outside" a village by moving them four blocks vertically, rather than having to move them several scores of blocks horizontally.
"Only"? You're playing it pretty fast-and-loose with the word "only" there, bud. The infinite villager breeding is a glitch, yes, but even if that glitch were patched, you could still just make a regular breeder and periodically transport excess villagers outside the village bounds (be this horizontally or vertically) to make room for new ones. Presto, glitch-free "infinite" breeder. And golems, well, you could just as well kill them inside the village bounds instead of "flushing" them down and out. Golem dies, drops his iron, and makes room for the next guy. This would only be a problem if the change wasn't reverted and you would still have to kill them by hand to get the drops -- they wouldn't pile up, because no more would spawn while one was already there. And in any case, even if villages did count golems and villagers for a larger vertical distance, that wouldn't change anything, we'd just drop them farther down to move them the required distance to get out of the zone, or even horizontally if we had to.
It looks like a lot of people have various stances on the situation but I honestly don't feel there is any need for a public out roar. In my personal opinion I am glad that they are making these changes as it levels the playing ground for players. Don't get me wrong I am all for making grinders and mob farms, it's actually my favorite thing to do when I play the game. When we look at what they're doing, they're making it so we can only get the drops from the mob if we kill it. This means that things such as environmental damage will no longer make the golem drop items. I feel this is a good thing as there are many people that do not like users making iron golem farms. That being said this change in no way makes iron farm impracticable and no longer worth it. There are tons of things you could do to work around this. For example you could create a masher or some sort of advanced environmental damage system that will bring the iron golems health down to 1 or 2 health (half heart, one heart respectively) Then the user can manually one shot the golem with their fists or if that's to much effort a splash damage of harming will work. There are automation issues with this system however with some pistons and or water you could easily make a collection zone to make them pile up over time.
One of the hugest points the "other side" has is that people play the game in different ways and some people would rather use farms to obtain iron rather than mining it themselves. I agree fully with this statement. As mentioned I myself like making farms based around the obscure limits of the game however this argument really is not applicable. Iron farms are not being nerfed out of existence. It will still be possible to create these types of farms and they will continue to be more than beneficial and practical.
It looks like a lot of people have various stances on the situation but I honestly don't feel there is any need for a public out roar. In my personal opinion I am glad that they are making these changes as it levels the playing ground for players. Don't get me wrong I am all for making grinders and mob farms, it's actually my favorite thing to do when I play the game. When we look at what they're doing, they're making it so we can only get the drops from the mob if we kill it. This means that things such as environmental damage will no longer make the golem drop items. I feel this is a good thing as there are many people that do not like users making iron golem farms. That being said this change in no way makes iron farm impracticable and no longer worth it. There are tons of things you could do to work around this. For example you could create a masher or some sort of advanced environmental damage system that will bring the iron golems health down to 1 or 2 health (half heart, one heart respectively) Then the user can manually one shot the golem with their fists or if that's to much effort a splash damage of harming will work. There are automation issues with this system however with some pistons and or water you could easily make a collection zone to make them pile up over time.
One of the hugest points the "other side" has is that people play the game in different ways and some people would rather use farms to obtain iron rather than mining it themselves. I agree fully with this statement. As mentioned I myself like making farms based around the obscure limits of the game however this argument really is not applicable. Iron farms are not being nerfed out of existence. It will still be possible to create these types of farms and they will continue to be more than beneficial and practical.
Right .. but there isn't much of a difference of a farm being automatic and a farm being semi-automatic. It only creates a bit more hassle. In a sense .. it solves no single problem at all other then to irritate some people.
Oh .. you now have to punch the golems ...?
How exactly does that make the farms any better for those who don't like them? The fact of the matter is ... they where trying to get rid of the iron golem farms and gold farms entirely. Other wise it wouldn't make any sense to do what they where doing. Just because we found a way around their "fix" doesn't mean they didn't try to get rid of them.
People seem to assume they purposefully made it so they can still be used with a slight work around. But again I say ... how does that make any sense? So it's better to afk for 5 hours come back punch mobs then to simply afk with out having to punch mobs? How does this improve anyones experience at all?
It doesn't. Chances are they would have tried to get rid of that as well. Who knows where they would have stopped. To me .. from my stance they where going to try and get rid of them entirely. Keyword .. try. People always find work around though. This doesn't change the fact that they where purposefully trying to get rid of these farms.
Yes, how dare they force you to mine for iron or gold, in a game called MINEcraft!
How dare they prevent us from abusing game mechanics that gives us an unfair advantage over others in multiplayer!
How dare they force us to legitimately obtain minerals, instead of afk-ing for them!
But let's be honest: Going down to mine for resources can be a tedious exercise, and one of the things that's supposed to make Minecraft unique is that you can build anything you want, including ways to get around the game's repetitive resource grinding if you're smart and diligent enough.
Being honest... everyone just looks up how to do it on youtube and copies that. One person solved the problem everyone else is just copying that. It's not like everyone is coming up with their own innovative solutions. And guess what, the people that are, will come up with a new solution as well.
Being honest... everyone just looks up how to do it on youtube and copies that. One person solved the problem everyone else is just copying that. It's not like everyone is coming up with their own innovative solutions. And guess what, the people that are, will come up with a new solution as well.
Nothing wrong with sharing ideas and others using them. Not all new solutions are better.
Nothing wrong with sharing ideas and others using them. Not all new solutions are better.
True, I strongly dislike Docm's recent fix for the Iron Golem farms, it doesn't cater to Iron Golem farms with smaller drops, and requires much more resources than what would probably be required for a basic mob softener such as using pistons. I tried to fool around in creative with some new ideas but I'm not one for inventing things, so it's tough. I think I'll get back to finding a different solution when I get some more creativity.
The clever thing for JEB to say in response to the Reddit storm is "After reviewing the discussion on Reddit we're not going to make any changes to automation, just some tweaks to Iron Golem and Zombie Pigmen drops".
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True, I strongly dislike Docm's recent fix for the Iron Golem farms, it doesn't cater to Iron Golem farms with smaller drops, and requires much more resources than what would probably be required for a basic mob softener such as using pistons. I tried to fool around in creative with some new ideas but I'm not one for inventing things, so it's tough. I think I'll get back to finding a different solution when I get some more creativity.
Way too many resources. All you need to do is send them on a lava river down to 1 heart then while they are on a ledge hit them with an egg sending into a lava pool killing them. Easy, cheap and can be automated.
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Curse PremiumYou made an extreme misrepresentation of my position, and it needed to be corrected.
This actually has nothing to do with redstone, because you don't need redstone to make an AFK Iron farm. You *can* use redstone, but you don't have to; same as mines, castles, stables, food farms, etc. The problem is automating iron farms, regardless of methodology.
Iron is limited; you're supposed to have to spend a certain amount of time to get it. Survival is supposed to be about earning what you get.
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Yet you conveniently ignored every other point I made that had nothing to do with automation...
Iron farms are only using game mechanics that already exist. They aren't exploits because they are not taking advantage of any bug, or glitch.
You clearly don't know what "limited" means. If a mob drops it it's not limited.
If you build a farm you've earned what you get from it.
No, they are not. They're only needed if you insist on enchanting at level 30, which is a huge waste of XP.
I get more than enough XP from normal playing to develop good armor, weapons and tools, and keep them in good repair once I've gotten them. I just use an enchanting strategy that conserves XP.
With the changes to enchanting coming up, XP farms will be even less "necessary" than ever before.
Iron Farms, and infinite village breeders only work because they exploit flaws in village detection: namely that villages don't recognize the vertical dimension. You can move a villager or an iron golem "outside" a village by moving them four blocks vertically, rather than having to move them several scores of blocks horizontally.
Yes, but if your farm exploits a bug in the game mechanic then you haven't earned what you get from it.
A flaw in YOUR opinion.
The game is working exactly as it was designed when people are farming iron. This is in no way an exploit.
There are no "bugs" being exploited.
https://twitter.com/jeb_/status/424952385417773056
It seems like Jeb has heard the community and iron/gold farms are staying as they are.
Good.
Now all he needs to do is revert the stupid villager breeding changes as well.
And so an item duplication exploit will remain in the game, because too many people liked it...
One more reason not to play multi-player, I guess.
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Curse PremiumYeah, that's the real problem. The infinite iron exploit is only the most noticeable and used problem that can create.
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Curse PremiumI understand immersion just fine, and just so you know .. I am a game developer XD.
I actually enjoy immersion a lot. I play skyrim and install a bunch of immersive mods, such as realistic needs and frostfall ... things like that.
However, people play Skyrim differently .. and it never breaks my own immersion. I simply do not let it. How they play has very little to do with me.
As for minecraft, I particularly do not view it as a very immersive experience, not once did I ever, even well before I learned how to make these huge farms. It's way to unrealistic and boring to me if i try to play it that way.
Loaded question, loaded statements don't really matter. I should be able to play the way I like .. end of story. You can argue and whine all you like, doesn't mean I have to listen to you.
When I get immersed in a video game, I tend to consider that a part of role play. A setting is created for you to get immersed in and feel like you are there. The moment you stop role playing and talk to a friend in real life while you play, it breaks immersion. I feel like im trying to explain the definition of role playing to you. You are a player playing a role -.-. You can't have full immersion with out it. How can a person be immersed in a game if they are not role playing the character in which they are taking the role of?
If you are playing a zombie apocalypse game, you take the role of a survivor. In order to become immersed you really have to feel like you are there and you are a survivor ... that is called role playing. Not everyone gets this involved into a game. I personally do .. just not with minecraft. I see minecraft as a sandbox game, a creative game, not a game to get immersed in.
I also still don't understand how other people play breaks your immersion. How exactly do you play any game then? Everyone plays the game differently. Some people even cheat. up, down, A, B, Left, Up, right. That would mean .. someone cheating half way across the earth ... breaks your immersion. That is stupid.
Like im looking forward to the Oculus Rift to get me even further immersed .. but i still don't see how other people cheating or exploiting could break my immersion. It has nothing to do with me at all.
I also find it hilarious that you assume so many things about me just because of this argument and you are very very wrong. I am a level designer .. I create those worlds you are talking about >.<, I am an artist. I pay attention to those details because I know what immersion is and I know the small things matter.
But again .. I still don't see how I play has any effect on you at all. You wouldn't even know how I play unless you actively look for it, like you are now, discussing it.
Chances are, if you never even posted or looked in this thread, if you never got involved, you wouldn't even know me and half the people here who like this type of play style.
It's pretty much your fault your immersion gets broken.
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Curse PremiumWell we possibly can't be wrong. If what SVGK is saying is true .. why does he play minecraft? These farms have been apart of it for a very very long time. He got by just fine didn't he? He still played the game. I assume the same goes with you.
If it was really such a huge problem it would have been fixed a very long time ago. No one seemed to care though, no one seemed to mention it. If you all cared so much .. how come you didn't bring it up earlier? Much earlier? Explain that to me.
Do you see how we all argued ... and pointed out we don't like these changes? How come you all didn't do that when these farms became possible? You would think if SVGK was so absolutely bothered by it, and as he said 30%+ are also bothered by it .. then they would be more vocal. Really .. then where are they? Point me to these 30% of people who are extremely bothered by this and breaks their immersion.
Frankly .. It's numbers pulled out of SVGK's back end. He has no proof.
At least I can point to him of the countless youtubers and how popular these farms are .. he couldn't point me to any proof even if he tried. Because he is full of it.
You are giving the impression that automatic iron farms can only be built inn one fashion. There are dozens of different approaches for making one of those farms (or mob farms of any kind for that matter). There are certainly some that "exploit" shortcomings in the manner you describe, but not all of them.
Heck, just look at the vain attempt to stop sand & gravel generators, yet they persist and new ways are found to accomplish the same task (including a version that works in 1.7.4... I've tried it). Trying to stop this kind of activity is to me sort of a whack-a-mole thing far worse than trying to simply deal with player behavior.
Notch used to relish this kind of thing where a happy accident would not be considered a bug but rather a feature. The Creeper started out as something intended to be very different, but now it has become standard in Minecraft with its weird shape and behavior. No doubt there are some things that are clearly bugs, but when they don't adversely impact ordinary players and especially don't impact novice players... I fail to see why any developer time at all needs to be spent "fixing" a problem that isn't broken.
Version 2.1 now updated for MC 1.6.2
"Only"? You're playing it pretty fast-and-loose with the word "only" there, bud. The infinite villager breeding is a glitch, yes, but even if that glitch were patched, you could still just make a regular breeder and periodically transport excess villagers outside the village bounds (be this horizontally or vertically) to make room for new ones. Presto, glitch-free "infinite" breeder. And golems, well, you could just as well kill them inside the village bounds instead of "flushing" them down and out. Golem dies, drops his iron, and makes room for the next guy. This would only be a problem if the change wasn't reverted and you would still have to kill them by hand to get the drops -- they wouldn't pile up, because no more would spawn while one was already there. And in any case, even if villages did count golems and villagers for a larger vertical distance, that wouldn't change anything, we'd just drop them farther down to move them the required distance to get out of the zone, or even horizontally if we had to.
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Retired StaffOne of the hugest points the "other side" has is that people play the game in different ways and some people would rather use farms to obtain iron rather than mining it themselves. I agree fully with this statement. As mentioned I myself like making farms based around the obscure limits of the game however this argument really is not applicable. Iron farms are not being nerfed out of existence. It will still be possible to create these types of farms and they will continue to be more than beneficial and practical.
Farewell everyone o/
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Curse PremiumRight .. but there isn't much of a difference of a farm being automatic and a farm being semi-automatic. It only creates a bit more hassle. In a sense .. it solves no single problem at all other then to irritate some people.
Oh .. you now have to punch the golems ...?
How exactly does that make the farms any better for those who don't like them? The fact of the matter is ... they where trying to get rid of the iron golem farms and gold farms entirely. Other wise it wouldn't make any sense to do what they where doing. Just because we found a way around their "fix" doesn't mean they didn't try to get rid of them.
People seem to assume they purposefully made it so they can still be used with a slight work around. But again I say ... how does that make any sense? So it's better to afk for 5 hours come back punch mobs then to simply afk with out having to punch mobs? How does this improve anyones experience at all?
It doesn't. Chances are they would have tried to get rid of that as well. Who knows where they would have stopped. To me .. from my stance they where going to try and get rid of them entirely. Keyword .. try. People always find work around though. This doesn't change the fact that they where purposefully trying to get rid of these farms.
How dare they prevent us from abusing game mechanics that gives us an unfair advantage over others in multiplayer!
How dare they force us to legitimately obtain minerals, instead of afk-ing for them!
My god, what is wrong with this community?
Being honest... everyone just looks up how to do it on youtube and copies that. One person solved the problem everyone else is just copying that. It's not like everyone is coming up with their own innovative solutions. And guess what, the people that are, will come up with a new solution as well.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0OtPNZX22RvZVeq4-dHa8GYKOc5lojKX
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Curse PremiumNothing wrong with sharing ideas and others using them. Not all new solutions are better.
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Curse PremiumTrue, I strongly dislike Docm's recent fix for the Iron Golem farms, it doesn't cater to Iron Golem farms with smaller drops, and requires much more resources than what would probably be required for a basic mob softener such as using pistons. I tried to fool around in creative with some new ideas but I'm not one for inventing things, so it's tough. I think I'll get back to finding a different solution when I get some more creativity.
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Curse PremiumWay too many resources. All you need to do is send them on a lava river down to 1 heart then while they are on a ledge hit them with an egg sending into a lava pool killing them. Easy, cheap and can be automated.