Getting damn tired of quoting myself to you. READ THE LINKS.
I HAVE READ THE LINKS.
Within a month of 1.4 development, Jeb said the API was not going to be in 1.4 which seems to imply that the post from the Mojang website was interpreted wrong and it wasn't their intent to release it exactly in 1.4.
You choose to interperate this as 'they weren't really going to put it into 1.4 to begin with'. I see it as 'they delayed it again'.
Also, as Dinnerbone stated in the other tweet, they never said that the API was going to be in 1.5.
I never said they did. In fact, I'm darn sure it won't. I'll take even money it won't be in 1.6, either. And 100-1 odds that you (or someone like you) will be here, making excuses for them.
Sethbling's video on the new feature from the snapshot:
Basically, they made the code more modular so you can attach tileEntities (like chest contents, or mob spawner settings) to fallingSand entities (which you can create with spawners). This is one of those completely unmentioned changes that is part of making the API have maximum functionality and usefulness.
Oh, it's a cool new feature. But that's the thing- its a NEW feature. When they first came up with the idea of the mod API (years ago), this feature was not even a gleam in someone's eye. If they're going to delay the API because someone, someday years in the future, might have a good idea... well, they'll never add it.
I'm out of here. Copious evidence has been presented that the API was planned for years, even coded up to the point where they were "finishing it up" for the next release. Time after time it has been pushed back, again and again. These are facts. Certain people just don't want to face up to the truth, because it makes Mojang look bad.
The 5 person Dev team will release this when it is ready, which could be 5.1.1but all updates since 1.3 have made major steps toward finishing the API.
Being a guy who's done code before, although it's much easier than actual programming languages, I wish people getting their panties in a bunch about the mod API would shut up about it, because they don't know what they're talking about.
"It was promised two years ago."
Yeah, Notch lied. Big whup. Notch isn't working on the game anymore, making that point irrelevant. They're working on the API right now, so it looks like they're going to follow through with plans and the promise. It's just going to take some time. It might even take years.
"It was planned for 1.3."
Yeah, so? They probably found some problems or realized how much work it's going to take, so they delayed it. They delayed it because it's not ready. What part of "it's not ready" do you not understand? If a feature of a game gets delayed, it's either because it's no ready, or they changed their minds. They don't owe this community anything, promise or not.
I code characters for the MUGEN fighting game engine, I know what it's like to believe to be almost done with something, and whoops, I screwed up in some places and I overlooked a few problems I haven't seen before. Sometimes it takes a while to work on that. They're human beings. They make mistakes like you and me.
And you need to realize that they practically have to recode the entire game from the ground up to get the API working? And did you know that they can underestimate how much time it takes to do something like that? Come on guys, have some common sense here.
And if you're just going to say "you're a fanboy, hurr derr", can you use any other argument than that?
Oh, it's a cool new feature. But that's the thing- its a NEW feature. When they first came up with the idea of the mod API (years ago), this feature was not even a gleam in someone's eye. If they're going to delay the API because someone, someday years in the future, might have a good idea... well, they'll never add it.
I'm out of here. Copious evidence has been presented that the API was planned for years, even coded up to the point where they were "finishing it up" for the next release. Time after time it has been pushed back, again and again. These are facts. Certain people just don't want to face up to the truth, because it makes Mojang look bad.
If you can't see how that's relevant, I'd vote to end your involvement in the thread, because you have no concept of what you have to go through to determine that's a feature that needs to be added.
I don't think anyone but your side of the argument is doing anything but facing the truth. But at least you took my advice. You can write me off as a fanboy all you like, and it doesn't change the fact that I simply understand what's going on better than you do. It's funny, in fact, you've been faced with programmer after programmer telling you "that's just how it works, dude", and you just have this desire to overly-criticize Mojang on things that are beyond their control.
If you think they're liars, or lazy, then by all means, find another game to play made by a perfect company who always listens and never says something about future updates without a disclaimer that it's tentative. Because people like you? You take the "Awesome" out of "Awesome Community".
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I don't think anyone but your side of the argument is doing anything but facing the truth. But at least you took my advice. You can write me off as a fanboy all you like, and it doesn't change the fact that I simply understand what's going on better than you do. It's funny, in fact, you've been faced with programmer after programmer telling you "that's just how it works, dude", and you just have this desire to overly-criticize Mojang on things that are beyond their control.
If you think they're liars, or lazy, then by all means, find another game to play made by a perfect company who always listens and never says something about future updates without a disclaimer that it's tentative. Because people like you? You take the "Awesome" out of "Awesome Community".
I'm kinda taking both sides of the argument here. I don't care if the api keeps getting pushed back, and I realize that the people at Mojang are people with lives and that programming takes time.
I also believe that features are being added that truly aren't useful or wanted with more bugs being created along with it, while ignoring the game breaking bugs and unwanted features that were added. I do like some of the features, especially things like command blocks, cobblestone/mossy cobblestone walls, corner stairs, cocoa bean stalks, etc., but things like the wither, witches, bats, and fireworks just make me facepalm.
I'm kinda taking both sides of the argument here. I don't care if the api keeps getting pushed back, and I realize that the people at Mojang are people with lives and that programming takes time.
I also believe that features are being added that truly aren't useful or wanted with more bugs being created along with it, while ignoring the game breaking bugs and unwanted features that were added. I do like some of the features, especially things like command blocks, cobblestone/mossy cobblestone walls, corner stairs, cocoa bean stalks, etc., but things like the wither, witches, bats, and fireworks just make me facepalm.
That sounds a lot more reasonable than the person who left the thread that I was replying to, but it's a good starting point for conversation, so prepare to receive a counter-argument!
All of the things you listed are proof-of-concept additions that were never before part of Minecraft. I'd say that some of them could have been "test runs" on new features they were coding into the engine, just to ensure that they worked.
For example, with the addition of Witches came code for localizing a mob to spawn inside of a very specific space (the witch hut) which very well could have come about because of bug-squashing or expanding the future possibilities of the Mod API. This means that mod makers can select mobs to spawn only in their mod-specific dungeon, for example, without the use of proximity-based and destructible mob spawners. Not only that, but they also mean testing and bug-squashing in the realm of splash-potion-based combat. (And you can't knock the Witch, it's the most annoying/deadly mob in Sethbling's craft bros PvP map)
With the addition of the Wither came the possibility of mob destroying explosion-proof or otherwise indestructible blocks. This could be something they felt was necessary for the Mod API, too, and the only way to properly bug-remove that kind of feature is to make it into part of the live game. Not to mention that with the Wither comes Beacons, localized application of potion effects from map features, also previously impossible and likely something they added as a direct result of determining what kind of functionality mod makers will need but obviously can't utilize unless it's implemented in-game (and this is also one of those GREAT additions for mapmakers- look at FVDisco's Sonic the Hedgehog map).
Fireworks give a great framework and (semi-)practical application of creating and using custom particle effects... But they're also very festive and once again something Mapmakers have used to their advantage (see: Evil Santa boss fight).
Bats... beats the crap out of me. I guess they're just atmosphere. But they're atmosphere I surely wouldn't opt to remove. They just feel like part of the game now.
An argument can be made that any updates - even updates you like - "aren't useful or wanted", as you put it. But perhaps, and I'm not saying it's the case, but perhaps these updates came around for deeper reasons we don't fully understand or aren't publicized.
Did you ever consider that most of the updates in 1.4 and 1.5 could be abstracted far enough to argue that they are simply implementations of new engine functionality they're developing to make the Mod API and coming future updates the best they can be?
When people talk about making the "wrong" kind of updates, do they ever consider that it is not the content of the update, but the code behind it, that is important to Mojang? I certainly never considered looking at it that way until I realized (while writing this post) that there HAD to be a reason for adding "witches and bats" - I would bet real money that it wasn't just a whimsical "Hey, let's add witches and witch huts!" There was an entirely new engine functionality added, and the point of an API is that it gives access to engine functionality without letting you write your own to avoid conflicts. Isn't it conceivable that witches were thrown in as an update just so that the "public" could test out the new functionality and work out bugs?
This is a long, involved process. That's all I'm saying. They set out to write the Mod API and realized that they could not possibly make it robust enough to support the mods that are out there without creating loads of new methods for achieving things like what the Witch or Fireworks added into the core engine functionality.
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Well, you obviously missed the one that I reposted from Notch's blog that admits that he didn't work on the API and that it fell through the cracks. I know you've missed this, twice, because you still post nonsense like this.
I'm out of here. Copious evidence has been presented that the API was planned for years, even coded up to the point where they were "finishing it up" for the next release. Time after time it has been pushed back, again and again. These are facts. Certain people just don't want to face up to the truth, because it makes Mojang look bad.
FACT: Notch didn't make anything for mod support during his tenure as lead developer. FACT: It's been pushed back twice since the current lead developer took control. FACT: Mojang is being really ambitious with the API to the point that they're working on many background changes to allow the API to work. FACT: I'm glad you're gone now. You obviously show little understanding of how projects (programming and otherwise) work. It's why you come off as entitled.
That sounds a lot more reasonable than the person who left the thread that I was replying to, but it's a good starting point for conversation, so prepare to receive a counter-argument!
All of the things you listed are proof-of-concept additions that were never before part of Minecraft. I'd say that some of them could have been "test runs" on new features they were coding into the engine, just to ensure that they worked.
For example, with the addition of Witches came code for localizing a mob to spawn inside of a very specific space (the witch hut) which very well could have come about because of bug-squashing or expanding the future possibilities of the Mod API. This means that mod makers can select mobs to spawn only in their mod-specific dungeon, for example, without the use of proximity-based and destructible mob spawners. Not only that, but they also mean testing and bug-squashing in the realm of splash-potion-based combat. (And you can't knock the Witch, it's the most annoying/deadly mob in Sethbling's craft bros PvP map)
With the addition of the Wither came the possibility of mob destroying explosion-proof or otherwise indestructible blocks. This could be something they felt was necessary for the Mod API, too, and the only way to properly bug-remove that kind of feature is to make it into part of the live game. Not to mention that with the Wither comes Beacons, localized application of potion effects from map features, also previously impossible and likely something they added as a direct result of determining what kind of functionality mod makers will need but obviously can't utilize unless it's implemented in-game (and this is also one of those GREAT additions for mapmakers- look at FVDisco's Sonic the Hedgehog map).
Fireworks give a great framework and (semi-)practical application of creating and using custom particle effects... But they're also very festive and once again something Mapmakers have used to their advantage (see: Evil Santa boss fight).
Bats... beats the crap out of me. I guess they're just atmosphere. But they're atmosphere I surely wouldn't opt to remove. They just feel like part of the game now.
An argument can be made that any updates - even updates you like - "aren't useful or wanted", as you put it. But perhaps, and I'm not saying it's the case, but perhaps these updates came around for deeper reasons we don't fully understand or aren't publicized.
Did you ever consider that most of the updates in 1.4 and 1.5 could be abstracted far enough to argue that they are simply implementations of new engine functionality they're developing to make the Mod API and coming future updates the best they can be?
When people talk about making the "wrong" kind of updates, do they ever consider that it is not the content of the update, but the code behind it, that is important to Mojang? I certainly never considered looking at it that way until I realized (while writing this post) that there HAD to be a reason for adding "witches and bats" - I would bet real money that it wasn't just a whimsical "Hey, let's add witches and witch huts!" There was an entirely new engine functionality added, and the point of an API is that it gives access to engine functionality without letting you write your own to avoid conflicts. Isn't it conceivable that witches were thrown in as an update just so that the "public" could test out the new functionality and work out bugs?
This is a long, involved process. That's all I'm saying. They set out to write the Mod API and realized that they could not possibly make it robust enough to support the mods that are out there without creating loads of new methods for achieving things like what the Witch or Fireworks added into the core engine functionality.
I would love to have a (reasonable) debate with you, but the fact of the matter is our debate probably won't change anything. I didn't think about the additions the way you did, so it's good to see the updates from a different perspective at least.
Essentially, what I'm saying is I have my opinion and you have yours, and expressing them isn't likely to change much, if anything at all.
I would love to have a (reasonable) debate with you, but the fact of the matter is our debate probably won't change anything. I didn't think about the additions the way you did, so it's good to see the updates from a different perspective at least.
Essentially, what I'm saying is I have my opinion and you have yours, and expressing them isn't likely to change much, if anything at all.
The most important thing of all is that this thread is not going to change the future of the mod API at all. So shut up already and go play league of legends or whatever game updates every 5 seconds.
Well, you obviously missed the one that I reposted from Notch's blog that admits that he didn't work on the API and that it fell through the cracks.
You're making my point for me. Notch (and by extension, Mojang) "didn't work on the API".
FACT: Notch didn't make anything for mod support during his tenure as lead developer. FACT: It's been pushed back twice since the current lead developer took control.
You're making my point for me. Notch (and by extension, Mojang) "didn't work on the API".
Again, you're making my point.
By extension, Mojang? So Notch represents Jeb, Dinnerbone, Grum, and EvilSeph. Just get out of this thread like you said you were going to, you're just making yourself look ignorant.
I'll try to illustrate what I think it's happening with the modding API, using a RL house as example (it's more tangible):
You want to put a fireplace in your house, so the winter nights are not so freaking cold. But putting the chimney, you found your roof is rotten, it needs to be replaced ASAP.
But then, you'll want to put a better roof, a bit more durable, that will probably be far better than the other one.
Then you discover the supports for the old roof aren't suited for the new one. You need to change them, too.
But the walls wouldn't survive with so much height, so you need to reinforce them too. And this, that, another that...
While building, you still need to consider you're living in said house. You can't simply destroy the whole house and start from the scratch, else you'll sleep in the cold rain. You need to do your work fast, but you have just two hands; you change a piece of the wall now, another tomorrow, another in other day...
The name for this is development hell. No, the people at Mojang aren't being lazy, but the amount of work they need to do is so overwhelming that no way they can finish as fast as we want, even more because they can't stop making new releases (to show the game is still being developed) without the sales dropping. They keep postponing the date because they really think they're done, but then, they uncover something else that must be done for the API to work properly.
On the other hand... there are three things they could do to speed up the process:
1. Hire more programmers. It's sensible to have at least one programmer to maintain each 10k or so lines of code, plus one or more for each big area of development (let's say, lighting, redstone, GUI, plugin API, etc.). Mojang is nowhere short of cash, and this would be one of the best investments they could make.
2. Release a partial plugin API, nowhere as flexible as they want to be, but modular and expansible. For this, they need to focus in one specific problem/feature, finish it, and only then move to the next in the list (doing first the simpler tasks would be better, but seems like they're already focusing in the lighting engine). If well-planned, this means the only changes plugin devs using the API would see after the release would be additive (in other words, no plugin breaking).
3. FOCUS! Everybody knows refactoring code and such isn't as fun as working in gameplay additions, but hey, homework first, then leisure! (Ballmer Peak could help a lot in this one...)
No, the people at Mojang aren't being lazy, but the amount of work they need to do is so overwhelming that no way they can finish as fast as we want, even more because they can't stop making new releases (to show the game is still being developed) without the sales dropping.
I have no issues with the rest of your post, but this one line needs to be clarified a bit, because there's a difference between new releases and new features. I'm hoping you only meant the former (as you stated), and not the latter.
I've seen people make the latter argument before. Do some people honestly think that Mojang needs to keep putting out tons of new features every update to keep sales going? Because I don't, at all.
If, for the next 6 months (for example), Mojang announced a "feature freeze" similar to what they did prior to the 1.0 launch, and only worked on bug fixes and the API (and by extension, updates that were directly needed for the API to function), do you think that would directly cause their sales rate to drop substantially? (Hint: It wouldn't. At all.)
Everyone I know that bought Minecraft recently did so because of word of mouth about what the game already is -- like how awesome and unique its playstyle is, etc. The fact that they keep adding new stuff every month or two, while enjoyed by many people who already bought the game, isn't even remotely its strongest selling point to new players.
In fact, I would hypothesize that being able to say "Hey, our game is virtually bug-free and has a fully functional API for modding," would be more of a selling point for attracting new players.
I'll try to illustrate what I think it's happening with the modding API, using a RL house as example (it's more tangible):
You want to put a fireplace in your house, so the winter nights are not so freaking cold. But putting the chimney, you found your roof is rotten, it needs to be replaced ASAP.
But then, you'll want to put a better roof, a bit more durable, that will probably be far better than the other one.
Then you discover the supports for the old roof aren't suited for the new one. You need to change them, too.
But the walls wouldn't survive with so much height, so you need to reinforce them too. And this, that, another that...<
When you first said you'd put a fireplace in, it was 2 years ago, and the roof wasn't rotten. But now that you've delayed so long....
While building, you still need to consider you're living in said house. You can't simply destroy the whole house and start from the scratch, else you'll sleep in the cold rain. You need to do your work fast, but you have just two hands; you change a piece of the wall now, another tomorrow, another in other day...
If you're running into that many problems with the house, it's sometimes cheaper and easier to build a new house than to try to patch up the old one. Live in the first one while the second one is being built, then move.
I mean, Notch single-handedly made Minecraft itself in less time than it is taking them to add the mod API. It literally might be faster for them to simply make "Minecraft 2", which includes the API. And maybe they can use something other than Java, too. But that's another discussion.
The name for this is development hell. No, the people at Mojang aren't being lazy, but the amount of work they need to do is so overwhelming that no way they can finish as fast as we want,
Then they need to stop raising people's expectations on stuff they can't deliver. That's all. Why is that so unreasonable?
they can't stop making new releases (to show the game is still being developed) without the sales dropping.
But, as you say a few sentances later: "Mojang is nowhere short of cash", so they CAN stop making new releases for a few months.
They keep postponing the date because they really think they're done, but then, they uncover something else that must be done for the API to work properly.
So, in the common idiom, they're writing checks their programming skill can't cash?
I would have no problems if they simply said "We're working on a MOD API, don't know when it'll be done."
But that's not what happened. They repeatedly said it would be released... and then pushed it off, and pushed it off, and pushed it off. And, as a paying customer, this annoys me. And I think that annoyance is justified.
You're making my point for me. Notch (and by extension, Mojang) "didn't work on the API".
Again, you're making my point.
I'm only making part of your point. Everything said while Notch was in charge is moot at this point. We are talking about two development teams now. The first one that made the promises to being with was Notch in charge and, from my understanding, telling Jeb what to program. The second, and most current team, involves Jeb as the lead and Dinnerbone working with him. They also have other members (the other former bukitt guys) working on background, not too visible stuff.
Yes, the first team leader lied. That's not what I"m disputing. I'm saying that the second team has been actively working on the mod support. It's a bigger job to get what they want to be the API to be out. They've literally "delayed" it twice, once because a non-lead employee said it would be in 1.3 before they actually had a planning meeting, the other because overall goal for 1.4 was changed or decided. As for the title of this thread, as I posted previously, the Mod API was never promised to be in 1.5.
Then they need to stop raising people's expectations on stuff they can't deliver. That's all. Why is that so unreasonable?
It's not so unreasonable. However, they haven't said when the API is going to be released since last September when Jeb tweeted that the API wasn't going to be in 1.4.
They aren't intentionally doing this. I honestly believe that the post you keep quoting about putting off features to 1.4 wasn't supposed to tell a deadline. It was just saying that the API isn't going to make it in. Most people probably just read it wrong or it was badly communicated.
So, in the common idiom, they're writing checks their programming skill can't cash?
I would have no problems if they simply said "We're working on a MOD API, don't know when it'll be done."
But that's not what happened. They repeatedly said it would be released... and then pushed it off, and pushed it off, and pushed it off. And, as a paying customer, this annoys me. And I think that annoyance is justified.
I don't believe they are. They're working on the API. They haven't mentioned when it's going to be released in months. They've only said that it's not in 1.4 and that they didn't say it was going to be in 1.5. They literally haven't given us any information within the last few months about when it will be released.
As the for being justified...No you're not. Here's a snippet from the Minecraft Terms of Use.
"When you purchase Minecraft you do so as is, be it in the early stages of development or already fully released. Subsequent updates are only an added bonus and not a guarantee, as icing on a cake."
I'm only making part of your point. Everything said while Notch was in charge is moot at this point.
It's not moot, for two reasons- it shows how long we the customers have been strung along, and thus why we are so upset. And it shows a pattern.
It's a bigger job to get what they want to be the API to be out.
I understand that.
However, I also understand that other people, people not associated with Mojang (and thus with less knowledge of the code), people working on their own time (thus not paid to do it), have come out with things like Forge and Bukitt. I would expect the actual employees to do better than the hobbyists, but maybe that's just me....
as I posted previously, the Mod API was never promised to be in 1.5.
I never said it was. They have been relatively quiet about it for a while now, which is fine. They need to work on it, and release it when ready, and just not make promises they can't keep.
The fireplace analogy is not necessarily comparable...Code does not degrade over time.
But by adding new features, they cause more bugs, that then need to be fixed... and those fixes cause more issues... etc.
They aren't intentionally doing this
Thus "incompetent" instead of "mean" or "evil".
They're working on the API. They haven't mentioned when it's going to be released in months. They've only said that it's not in 1.4 and that they didn't say it was going to be in 1.5. They literally haven't given us any information within the last few months about when it will be released.
And as I said, I'm fine with that. They should have done that from the beginning. "We're working on it, no idea when it'll be done."
It's not moot, for two reasons- it shows how long we the customers have been strung along, and thus why we are so upset. And it shows a pattern.
For all intents purposes, while both Minecraft teams worked for the same company they're two separate entities. The first team before the release had a development lead that lied and forgot about the API for the most part. The second team has been actively working on an API almost since their lead has had the reins of control. Complaining about the first team at this point is beating a dead horse. It's not going to get anything done. However, the second team does not, by any fair standard, deserve your ire.
However, I also understand that other people, people not associated with Mojang (and thus with less knowledge of the code), people working on their own time (thus not paid to do it), have come out with things like Forge and Bukitt. I would expect the actual employees to do better than the hobbyists, but maybe that's just me....
What Forge and Bukitt do is not the same as what Mojang wants to do. What the current Minecraft development team wants to do. Both Forge and Bukitt break after each update if I'm not mistaken. It is my understanding that Mojang wants their API to never ever break. The goals are different and Mojang's goal of having a modular, unbreakable API apparently requires a lot of work and coding in the background. Please read some of BC_Programmings posts in this thread and the "Is Mojang Getting Lazy?" thread for what exactly a the development team has to do. He has way more technical knowledge on the matter than I do.
I never said it was. They have been relatively quiet about it for a while now, which is fine. They need to work on it, and release it when ready, and just not make promises they can't keep.
They are working on it. They haven't made promises. Like I said, one member of the current development team optimistically posted a deadline before a planning meeting. The job turned out to be bigger than expected.
But by adding new features, they cause more bugs, that then need to be fixed... and those fixes cause more issues... etc.
Most bugs are tiny, unnoticeable, and honestly, I haven't seen nearly half as many bugs as the tracker has posted. That's even if I discount repeat reports.
Again, optimistic deadlines is not incompetence. IT'S NOT THE SAME. They have the skill just more work in front of them than they thought. I will say that posting a deadline before a meeting or outright lying is not professional. However, that's not the same as incompetent. Again, you're using the word wrong. Even when you posted the definition of incompetent I told you how you used the word wrong.
And as I said, I'm fine with that. They should have done that from the beginning. "We're working on it, no idea when it'll be done."
They should have. We can't change the past though. Be happy with what you have because Mojang is not obligated to give us an API. We bought the game "as is."
Also, I thought you were going to leave the thread.
I HAVE READ THE LINKS.
You choose to interperate this as 'they weren't really going to put it into 1.4 to begin with'. I see it as 'they delayed it again'.
I never said they did. In fact, I'm darn sure it won't. I'll take even money it won't be in 1.6, either. And 100-1 odds that you (or someone like you) will be here, making excuses for them.
Oh, it's a cool new feature. But that's the thing- its a NEW feature. When they first came up with the idea of the mod API (years ago), this feature was not even a gleam in someone's eye. If they're going to delay the API because someone, someday years in the future, might have a good idea... well, they'll never add it.
I'm out of here. Copious evidence has been presented that the API was planned for years, even coded up to the point where they were "finishing it up" for the next release. Time after time it has been pushed back, again and again. These are facts. Certain people just don't want to face up to the truth, because it makes Mojang look bad.
"It was promised two years ago."
Yeah, Notch lied. Big whup. Notch isn't working on the game anymore, making that point irrelevant. They're working on the API right now, so it looks like they're going to follow through with plans and the promise. It's just going to take some time. It might even take years.
"It was planned for 1.3."
Yeah, so? They probably found some problems or realized how much work it's going to take, so they delayed it. They delayed it because it's not ready. What part of "it's not ready" do you not understand? If a feature of a game gets delayed, it's either because it's no ready, or they changed their minds. They don't owe this community anything, promise or not.
I code characters for the MUGEN fighting game engine, I know what it's like to believe to be almost done with something, and whoops, I screwed up in some places and I overlooked a few problems I haven't seen before. Sometimes it takes a while to work on that. They're human beings. They make mistakes like you and me.
And you need to realize that they practically have to recode the entire game from the ground up to get the API working? And did you know that they can underestimate how much time it takes to do something like that? Come on guys, have some common sense here.
And if you're just going to say "you're a fanboy, hurr derr", can you use any other argument than that?
I don't think anyone but your side of the argument is doing anything but facing the truth. But at least you took my advice. You can write me off as a fanboy all you like, and it doesn't change the fact that I simply understand what's going on better than you do. It's funny, in fact, you've been faced with programmer after programmer telling you "that's just how it works, dude", and you just have this desire to overly-criticize Mojang on things that are beyond their control.
If you think they're liars, or lazy, then by all means, find another game to play made by a perfect company who always listens and never says something about future updates without a disclaimer that it's tentative. Because people like you? You take the "Awesome" out of "Awesome Community".
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I'm kinda taking both sides of the argument here. I don't care if the api keeps getting pushed back, and I realize that the people at Mojang are people with lives and that programming takes time.
I also believe that features are being added that truly aren't useful or wanted with more bugs being created along with it, while ignoring the game breaking bugs and unwanted features that were added. I do like some of the features, especially things like command blocks, cobblestone/mossy cobblestone walls, corner stairs, cocoa bean stalks, etc., but things like the wither, witches, bats, and fireworks just make me facepalm.
All of the things you listed are proof-of-concept additions that were never before part of Minecraft. I'd say that some of them could have been "test runs" on new features they were coding into the engine, just to ensure that they worked.
For example, with the addition of Witches came code for localizing a mob to spawn inside of a very specific space (the witch hut) which very well could have come about because of bug-squashing or expanding the future possibilities of the Mod API. This means that mod makers can select mobs to spawn only in their mod-specific dungeon, for example, without the use of proximity-based and destructible mob spawners. Not only that, but they also mean testing and bug-squashing in the realm of splash-potion-based combat. (And you can't knock the Witch, it's the most annoying/deadly mob in Sethbling's craft bros PvP map)
With the addition of the Wither came the possibility of mob destroying explosion-proof or otherwise indestructible blocks. This could be something they felt was necessary for the Mod API, too, and the only way to properly bug-remove that kind of feature is to make it into part of the live game. Not to mention that with the Wither comes Beacons, localized application of potion effects from map features, also previously impossible and likely something they added as a direct result of determining what kind of functionality mod makers will need but obviously can't utilize unless it's implemented in-game (and this is also one of those GREAT additions for mapmakers- look at FVDisco's Sonic the Hedgehog map).
Fireworks give a great framework and (semi-)practical application of creating and using custom particle effects... But they're also very festive and once again something Mapmakers have used to their advantage (see: Evil Santa boss fight).
Bats... beats the crap out of me. I guess they're just atmosphere. But they're atmosphere I surely wouldn't opt to remove. They just feel like part of the game now.
An argument can be made that any updates - even updates you like - "aren't useful or wanted", as you put it. But perhaps, and I'm not saying it's the case, but perhaps these updates came around for deeper reasons we don't fully understand or aren't publicized.
Did you ever consider that most of the updates in 1.4 and 1.5 could be abstracted far enough to argue that they are simply implementations of new engine functionality they're developing to make the Mod API and coming future updates the best they can be?
When people talk about making the "wrong" kind of updates, do they ever consider that it is not the content of the update, but the code behind it, that is important to Mojang? I certainly never considered looking at it that way until I realized (while writing this post) that there HAD to be a reason for adding "witches and bats" - I would bet real money that it wasn't just a whimsical "Hey, let's add witches and witch huts!" There was an entirely new engine functionality added, and the point of an API is that it gives access to engine functionality without letting you write your own to avoid conflicts. Isn't it conceivable that witches were thrown in as an update just so that the "public" could test out the new functionality and work out bugs?
This is a long, involved process. That's all I'm saying. They set out to write the Mod API and realized that they could not possibly make it robust enough to support the mods that are out there without creating loads of new methods for achieving things like what the Witch or Fireworks added into the core engine functionality.
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Well, you obviously missed the one that I reposted from Notch's blog that admits that he didn't work on the API and that it fell through the cracks. I know you've missed this, twice, because you still post nonsense like this.
FACT: Notch didn't make anything for mod support during his tenure as lead developer. FACT: It's been pushed back twice since the current lead developer took control. FACT: Mojang is being really ambitious with the API to the point that they're working on many background changes to allow the API to work. FACT: I'm glad you're gone now. You obviously show little understanding of how projects (programming and otherwise) work. It's why you come off as entitled.
I would love to have a (reasonable) debate with you, but the fact of the matter is our debate probably won't change anything. I didn't think about the additions the way you did, so it's good to see the updates from a different perspective at least.
Essentially, what I'm saying is I have my opinion and you have yours, and expressing them isn't likely to change much, if anything at all.
The most important thing of all is that this thread is not going to change the future of the mod API at all. So shut up already and go play league of legends or whatever game updates every 5 seconds.
You're making my point for me. Notch (and by extension, Mojang) "didn't work on the API".
Again, you're making my point.
By extension, Mojang? So Notch represents Jeb, Dinnerbone, Grum, and EvilSeph. Just get out of this thread like you said you were going to, you're just making yourself look ignorant.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
You want to put a fireplace in your house, so the winter nights are not so freaking cold. But putting the chimney, you found your roof is rotten, it needs to be replaced ASAP.
But then, you'll want to put a better roof, a bit more durable, that will probably be far better than the other one.
Then you discover the supports for the old roof aren't suited for the new one. You need to change them, too.
But the walls wouldn't survive with so much height, so you need to reinforce them too. And this, that, another that...
While building, you still need to consider you're living in said house. You can't simply destroy the whole house and start from the scratch, else you'll sleep in the cold rain. You need to do your work fast, but you have just two hands; you change a piece of the wall now, another tomorrow, another in other day...
The name for this is development hell. No, the people at Mojang aren't being lazy, but the amount of work they need to do is so overwhelming that no way they can finish as fast as we want, even more because they can't stop making new releases (to show the game is still being developed) without the sales dropping. They keep postponing the date because they really think they're done, but then, they uncover something else that must be done for the API to work properly.
On the other hand... there are three things they could do to speed up the process:
1. Hire more programmers. It's sensible to have at least one programmer to maintain each 10k or so lines of code, plus one or more for each big area of development (let's say, lighting, redstone, GUI, plugin API, etc.). Mojang is nowhere short of cash, and this would be one of the best investments they could make.
2. Release a partial plugin API, nowhere as flexible as they want to be, but modular and expansible. For this, they need to focus in one specific problem/feature, finish it, and only then move to the next in the list (doing first the simpler tasks would be better, but seems like they're already focusing in the lighting engine). If well-planned, this means the only changes plugin devs using the API would see after the release would be additive (in other words, no plugin breaking).
3. FOCUS! Everybody knows refactoring code and such isn't as fun as working in gameplay additions, but hey, homework first, then leisure! (Ballmer Peak could help a lot in this one...)
Chest?
i dont know, that's why im a
I've seen people make the latter argument before. Do some people honestly think that Mojang needs to keep putting out tons of new features every update to keep sales going? Because I don't, at all.
If, for the next 6 months (for example), Mojang announced a "feature freeze" similar to what they did prior to the 1.0 launch, and only worked on bug fixes and the API (and by extension, updates that were directly needed for the API to function), do you think that would directly cause their sales rate to drop substantially? (Hint: It wouldn't. At all.)
Everyone I know that bought Minecraft recently did so because of word of mouth about what the game already is -- like how awesome and unique its playstyle is, etc. The fact that they keep adding new stuff every month or two, while enjoyed by many people who already bought the game, isn't even remotely its strongest selling point to new players.
In fact, I would hypothesize that being able to say "Hey, our game is virtually bug-free and has a fully functional API for modding," would be more of a selling point for attracting new players.
When you first said you'd put a fireplace in, it was 2 years ago, and the roof wasn't rotten. But now that you've delayed so long....
If you're running into that many problems with the house, it's sometimes cheaper and easier to build a new house than to try to patch up the old one. Live in the first one while the second one is being built, then move.
I mean, Notch single-handedly made Minecraft itself in less time than it is taking them to add the mod API. It literally might be faster for them to simply make "Minecraft 2", which includes the API. And maybe they can use something other than Java, too. But that's another discussion.
Then they need to stop raising people's expectations on stuff they can't deliver. That's all. Why is that so unreasonable?
But, as you say a few sentances later: "Mojang is nowhere short of cash", so they CAN stop making new releases for a few months.
So, in the common idiom, they're writing checks their programming skill can't cash?
I would have no problems if they simply said "We're working on a MOD API, don't know when it'll be done."
But that's not what happened. They repeatedly said it would be released... and then pushed it off, and pushed it off, and pushed it off. And, as a paying customer, this annoys me. And I think that annoyance is justified.
I'm only making part of your point. Everything said while Notch was in charge is moot at this point. We are talking about two development teams now. The first one that made the promises to being with was Notch in charge and, from my understanding, telling Jeb what to program. The second, and most current team, involves Jeb as the lead and Dinnerbone working with him. They also have other members (the other former bukitt guys) working on background, not too visible stuff.
Yes, the first team leader lied. That's not what I"m disputing. I'm saying that the second team has been actively working on the mod support. It's a bigger job to get what they want to be the API to be out. They've literally "delayed" it twice, once because a non-lead employee said it would be in 1.3 before they actually had a planning meeting, the other because overall goal for 1.4 was changed or decided. As for the title of this thread, as I posted previously, the Mod API was never promised to be in 1.5.
The fireplace analogy is not necessarily comparable...Code does not degrade over time.
It's not so unreasonable. However, they haven't said when the API is going to be released since last September when Jeb tweeted that the API wasn't going to be in 1.4.
They aren't intentionally doing this. I honestly believe that the post you keep quoting about putting off features to 1.4 wasn't supposed to tell a deadline. It was just saying that the API isn't going to make it in. Most people probably just read it wrong or it was badly communicated.
I don't believe they are. They're working on the API. They haven't mentioned when it's going to be released in months. They've only said that it's not in 1.4 and that they didn't say it was going to be in 1.5. They literally haven't given us any information within the last few months about when it will be released.
As the for being justified...No you're not. Here's a snippet from the Minecraft Terms of Use.
"When you purchase Minecraft you do so as is, be it in the early stages of development or already fully released. Subsequent updates are only an added bonus and not a guarantee, as icing on a cake."
It's not moot, for two reasons- it shows how long we the customers have been strung along, and thus why we are so upset. And it shows a pattern.
I understand that.
However, I also understand that other people, people not associated with Mojang (and thus with less knowledge of the code), people working on their own time (thus not paid to do it), have come out with things like Forge and Bukitt. I would expect the actual employees to do better than the hobbyists, but maybe that's just me....
I never said it was. They have been relatively quiet about it for a while now, which is fine. They need to work on it, and release it when ready, and just not make promises they can't keep.
But by adding new features, they cause more bugs, that then need to be fixed... and those fixes cause more issues... etc.
Thus "incompetent" instead of "mean" or "evil".
And as I said, I'm fine with that. They should have done that from the beginning. "We're working on it, no idea when it'll be done."
For all intents purposes, while both Minecraft teams worked for the same company they're two separate entities. The first team before the release had a development lead that lied and forgot about the API for the most part. The second team has been actively working on an API almost since their lead has had the reins of control. Complaining about the first team at this point is beating a dead horse. It's not going to get anything done. However, the second team does not, by any fair standard, deserve your ire.
What Forge and Bukitt do is not the same as what Mojang wants to do. What the current Minecraft development team wants to do. Both Forge and Bukitt break after each update if I'm not mistaken. It is my understanding that Mojang wants their API to never ever break. The goals are different and Mojang's goal of having a modular, unbreakable API apparently requires a lot of work and coding in the background. Please read some of BC_Programmings posts in this thread and the "Is Mojang Getting Lazy?" thread for what exactly a the development team has to do. He has way more technical knowledge on the matter than I do.
They are working on it. They haven't made promises. Like I said, one member of the current development team optimistically posted a deadline before a planning meeting. The job turned out to be bigger than expected.
Most bugs are tiny, unnoticeable, and honestly, I haven't seen nearly half as many bugs as the tracker has posted. That's even if I discount repeat reports.
Again, optimistic deadlines is not incompetence. IT'S NOT THE SAME. They have the skill just more work in front of them than they thought. I will say that posting a deadline before a meeting or outright lying is not professional. However, that's not the same as incompetent. Again, you're using the word wrong. Even when you posted the definition of incompetent I told you how you used the word wrong.
They should have. We can't change the past though. Be happy with what you have because Mojang is not obligated to give us an API. We bought the game "as is."
Also, I thought you were going to leave the thread.