How about changing the recipe for books? 1 leather + 6 paper in a rectangle = 2-3 books. This way, the requirement for so much leather is mitigated a little, but you still need to farm cows.
The suggestions for alternate ways to acquire leather (like Rotten Flesh) are pretty good too, as long as it doesn't make it so plentiful.
Cooking rotten flesh and then crafting 4 of the result for one leather seems fair to me.
How about changing the recipe for books? 1 leather + 6 paper in a rectangle = 2-3 books. This way, the requirement for so much leather is mitigated a little, but you still need to farm cows.
The suggestions for alternate ways to acquire leather (like Rotten Flesh) are pretty good too, as long as it doesn't make it so plentiful.
Cooking rotten flesh and then crafting 4 of the result for one leather seems fair to me.
The notion of making books out of cooked zombie flesh is pretty appealing. However, leather is NOT hard to get in the game, and it is a renewable resource. I have no respect for anyone who thinks leather is hard to get, and that book shelves are hard to make.
The notion of making books out of cooked zombie flesh is pretty appealing. However, leather is NOT hard to get in the game, and it is a renewable resource. I have no respect for anyone who thinks leather is hard to get, and that book shelves are hard to make.
I don't believe anyone here is citing the challenge of obtaining leather as much as it is the tedium of it. The original poster already did the math and told us the numbers on how many cows it takes to supply an enchantment table. That's not even accounting for the amount of bookcases it'd take to make a library building. Which isn't exactly a building made entirely out of gold or anything extravagant. It's pretty mundane, actually, so I don't see why it'd take so much time and attention to do.
Tedium ought to be directly proportional to the payoff. Making bookcases isn't that big of a payoff, and yet it's quite a tedious task. Finding diamonds is tedious? Sure it is, but they have tons of uses, and they're exceedingly valuable. That's acceptable. But as it is now, I feel leather takes too much time to acquire.
I don't believe anyone here is citing the challenge of obtaining leather as much as it is the tedium of it. The original poster already did the math and told us the numbers on how many cows it takes to supply an enchantment table. That's not even accounting for the amount of bookcases it'd take to make a library building. Which isn't exactly a building made entirely out of gold or anything extravagant. It's pretty mundane, actually, so I don't see why it'd take so much time and attention to do.
Tedium ought to be directly proportional to the payoff. Making bookcases isn't that big of a payoff, and yet it's quite a tedious task. Finding diamonds is tedious? Sure it is, but they have tons of uses, and they're exceedingly valuable. That's acceptable. But as it is now, I feel leather takes too much time to acquire.
Well then where is the thread about how collecting ink sacs can be tedious with little payoff, or the thread about how making a perfect sphere out of sand is both tedious and unrewarding. Or maybe someone should request that making 300 cookies be made less tedious because they have somehow decided it is paramount to their minecraft experience.
When 1.3 came out I decided to start a new world, and when it got to the point where it was time to make my enchantment table I set out to get the leather. I settled in a huge desert so I walked for a day until I found a snow biome next to a plains biome. A quick search led me to some wolves, a few bones and breeds later I had a pack of 10 dogs ready and willing. I managed to get enough leather in one minecraft day to make all 15 book cases, and I had 8 puppies left over, and I found a village and walked away with a dozen emeralds. So for three minecraft days (an hour, a mere hour) I managed to have everything I needed to make my enchantment room.
Tedium is in the eye of the beholder, like the rest of minecraft. The game is what you make it.
Well then where is the thread about how collecting ink sacs can be tedious with little payoff, or the thread about how making a perfect sphere out of sand is both tedious and unrewarding. Or maybe someone should request that making 300 cookies be made less tedious because they have somehow decided it is paramount to their minecraft experience.
When 1.3 came out I decided to start a new world, and when it got to the point where it was time to make my enchantment table I set out to get the leather. I settled in a huge desert so I walked for a day until I found a snow biome next to a plains biome. A quick search led me to some wolves, a few bones and breeds later I had a pack of 10 dogs ready and willing. I managed to get enough leather in one minecraft day to make all 15 book cases, and I had 8 puppies left over, and I found a village and walked away with a dozen emeralds. So for three minecraft days (an hour, a mere hour) I managed to have everything I needed to make my enchantment room.
Tedium is in the eye of the beholder, like the rest of minecraft. The game is what you make it.
Again, you're only talking about bookshelves. Not leather itself which was given a new use and will be given another with the next update. The uses are increasing but the amount of leather dropped was not. It doesn't need a big increase but 1-2 or 1-3 would be nice so that there isn't a total chance of failure. Your squid example is not truly applicable because squids are guaranteed a drop and ink sacs do not have uses that are particularly used in mass like bookshelves. Cocoa pods drop 3 beans when grown and each produces 8 cookies. Your examples are not even similar.
Hell, the general attitude was that leather did not drop enough and was not accessible enough to make leather armor worth it. You can get the next higher tier armor within a Minecraft day and it is easier to get, not to mention more easily renewable, than leather. Yeah, iron has many uses but it is common enough to that the effort to get enough is nowhere near the same to get a comparable amount of leather.
Again, you're only talking about bookshelves. Not leather itself which was given a new use and will be given another with the next update. The uses are increasing but the amount of leather dropped was not. It doesn't need a big increase but 1-2 or 1-3 would be nice so that there isn't a total chance of failure. Your squid example is not truly applicable because squids are guaranteed a drop and ink sacs do not have uses that are particularly used in mass like bookshelves. Cocoa pods drop 3 beans when grown and each produces 8 cookies. Your examples are not even similar.
Hell, the general attitude was that leather did not drop enough and was not accessible enough to make leather armor worth it. You can get the next higher tier armor within a Minecraft day and it is easier to get, not to mention more easily renewable, than leather. Yeah, iron has many uses but it is common enough to that the effort to get enough is nowhere near the same to get a comparable amount of leather.
Squids drop rate for ink starts at 0, and leather was recently given a more decorative use with the ability to dye each piece a different color. The examples are similar if you put the actual gameplay in perspective the way it should be; subjectively. There is no objective solution to this problem; it is dependent on the way a person plays the game. I managed to get all of the leather I need for everything I need it for what I consider relatively quick. Some people obviously have different ideas of time invested over reward received. Some players, like myself, will go out and kill enough cows to make the books in a single go, and some will carefully capture, breed, and cultivate a leather farmer culture. The players who go hunting may think breeding and slaughtering cows is too tedious and has no action orientation, and the farmer player is more likely to think that hunting will result in death or being lost. For either player the current drop rate is, in my opinion, pretty good.
I'm not trying to start or exacerbate an argument, I'm sorry if it seems that way. I merely want to illustrate that the balance isn't in use versus drop, its play style.Also, continuing with the objectivity of use versus drop, I don't think I have ever used leather armor in earnest. I do, however, think that the recent ability to dye the armor is to give it more of a value in a superficial but beneficial way. Mostly for a SMP and PVP setting, though. For instance, having the ability to trick your opponent into thinking you have on armor (from far away) is nigh invaluable. The rarity of leather suddenly makes sense.
Some players, like myself, will go out and kill enough cows to make the books in a single go, and some will carefully capture, breed, and cultivate a leather farmer culture. The players who go hunting may think breeding and slaughtering cows is too tedious and has no action orientation, and the farmer player is more likely to think that hunting will result in death or being lost. For either player the current drop rate is, in my opinion, pretty good.
I wouldn't mind so much if hunting for leather was a sustainable option, as it used to be, but that's no longer the case - areas don't repopulate at any appreciable speed unless you breed stock yourself (most players wouldn't realise that repopulation can occur at all if they hadn't read the wiki/forums). Long-term hunting involves moving ever further from your base.
Yes, I agree that short-term hunting is just fine for those who only want a handful of shelves (eg the tiny amount needed for an enchanting room), but I've already made several hundred of the things. The idea of performing that task with the added leather requirement makes me cringe.
Just a note on your cookies example, the amount of wheat needed to craft 300 of the things would, on average, get you somewhat less then 40 leather. That's not even 15 bookshelves, though it IS worth a bit more then a suit of leather armour.
(Though to be fair, it'd likewise only consume about a third of my average crop harvest. Cookies are cheap, and being one of the worst food choices, rightfully so).
Re squid, I believe you are mistaken. Unlike leather drops, you're guarenteed an ink drop for every squid killed. In fact I just ran out into the ocean to the west of my base and within about three minutes obtained 23 sacs before running out of targets, getting a drop every single time.
Re squid, I believe you are mistaken. Unlike leather drops, you're guarenteed an ink drop for every squid killed. In fact I just ran out into the ocean to the west of my base and within about three minutes obtained 23 sacs before running out of targets, getting a drop every single time.
You sir, are correct about squids, and I am wrong about them! Armed with the knowledge of mob spawning mechanics a hunter would be able to make the right decisions about leather gathering, wouldn't you agree?
I make a lot of cookies. A lot. I like the challenge of only eating cookies for long stretches of time. It makes fighting mobs at night a blast. Again the divergence of actual value versus perceived worth has to be approached. Is leather valuable because you are going to recreate the tajmahal on a 1:1 scale completely out of book cases? Only to you, so yes, books are valuable. But to me, who uses book cases sparingly (i hate how repetitive the texture is when placed concurrently on the same axis) leather isn't as valuable. Some people view emeralds as valuable because of their rarity, I make and use emerald blocks like a kid goes through candy and don't care of their actual in-game pecuniary worth. Armed with the
I will definitely agree, concede even, that leather can be valuable, and should be treated as such. But if I want to make a massive cube with an entirely ice exterior then you will not find me asking for silk touch to be made easier to get. Right now I want to grow potatoes in my game more than anything in the world, but I haven't gotten a single potato to drop from zombies. You will find zero threads from this user asking the drop rate to be increased. That is a poor example because I know the plan is to have the things spawn initially in villager farm plots, but the idea is there. Just because my personal play style dictates that I must place value on something doesn't immediately call for an increase in abundance of that item.
I'm fairly certain most people here see what you're saying. I'm also under the impression we understand your notions of subjectivity. I agree with you. Things like these are subjective.
I don't think anyone's trying to assert it as a fact that "The drop rate is too low." We feel it's too tedious to get leather, according to our playstyles.
By the way, I don't think it's very conducive to the argument by using such horribly exaggerated examples as "I want to build a Taj Mahal out of bookcases." Reading the posts of the proponents of the change, I don't believe anyone here wants to use bookcases for anything than enchantment tables and library buildings, both of which require a large but reasonable amount of bookcases.
I also don't think anyone wants acquisition of leather to be made disproportionately easy. There's a balance between how valuable something actually is, how much of something one needs to attain that value, how easy it is to get it, and how much time must be spent to get it.
We're trying to address the final part of that. Time. We think it takes too long. Again, numbers were crunched on this. Reasonable solutions were forwarded. Would making leather guarantee at least one drop per cow skew things too badly? Would it be out of line with other materials in the game?
I don't think so, considering its uses, and its relative power as a material.
We're trying to address the final part of that. Time. We think it takes too long. Again, numbers were crunched on this. Reasonable solutions were forwarded. Would making leather guarantee at least one drop per cow skew things too badly? Would it be out of line with other materials in the game?
I don't think so, considering its uses, and its relative power as a material.
Should every blaze always drop at least one blaze rod when killed? Or should every endermen drop at least one ender pearl when killed? Should there be a maximum time cap on how long your line has to be in the water before you catch a fish? Should creepers always drop at least one gun powder upon death?
You sir, are correct about squids, and I am wrong about them! Armed with the knowledge of mob spawning mechanics a hunter would be able to make the right decisions about leather gathering, wouldn't you agree?
I make a lot of cookies. A lot. I like the challenge of only eating cookies for long stretches of time. It makes fighting mobs at night a blast. Again the divergence of actual value versus perceived worth has to be approached. Is leather valuable because you are going to recreate the tajmahal on a 1:1 scale completely out of book cases? Only to you, so yes, books are valuable. But to me, who uses book cases sparingly (i hate how repetitive the texture is when placed concurrently on the same axis) leather isn't as valuable. Some people view emeralds as valuable because of their rarity, I make and use emerald blocks like a kid goes through candy and don't care of their actual in-game pecuniary worth. Armed with the
Did something get cut off here or is this just an editing error?
I will definitely agree, concede even, that leather can be valuable, and should be treated as such. But if I want to make a massive cube with an entirely ice exterior then you will not find me asking for silk touch to be made easier to get. Right now I want to grow potatoes in my game more than anything in the world, but I haven't gotten a single potato to drop from zombies. You will find zero threads from this user asking the drop rate to be increased. That is a poor example because I know the plan is to have the things spawn initially in villager farm plots, but the idea is there. Just because my personal play style dictates that I must place value on something doesn't immediately call for an increase in abundance of that item.
See what I'm saying?
I understand what your saying about playstyles but I'd say there's a difference here between leather and the emerald example you gave. While you only care for its aesthetics, there in game use is valuable. They allow the player to purchase supplies; food, tools, armor, rather then gathering them through the traditional methods. So emeralds rarity are balanced around their in-game use as currency.
This is why I see an issue with the leather drop rate, because it doesn't seem to be balanced around anything. People have called it the new barrier to enchanting but as you and I have both pointed out in previous comments, just hunting cows in the immediate area for a minecraft day or two can get you all the leather you need for a enchanting table. It certainly wasn't balanced around leather armor when passive mob spawning changed. Leather armor was, and still is; more time consuming to get then iron armor, weaker then iron armor, and slower to renew then iron armor. Only use left to balance it around is decorations, the books and frames, but the drop rate seems awfully low if that was what leather is supposed to be balanced around. So I don't see what leather drops are balanced around, seems to me like they aren't and that the drop rate is just a leftover from the alpha/beta days with a very different passive mob spawning system.
I'm fairly certain most people here see what you're saying. I'm also under the impression we understand your notions of subjectivity. I agree with you. Things like these are subjective.
I don't think anyone's trying to assert it as a fact that "The drop rate is too low." We feel it's too tedious to get leather, according to our playstyles.
Oh, well I sort of am. Not saying my opinion is objective truth but I find it rather hard to believe the leather drop rate is balanced based of its current in-game uses. Basically I see a discrepancy between here:
I also don't think anyone wants acquisition of leather to be made disproportionately easy. There's a balance between how valuable something actually is,...
not getting at least 1 leather from every cow killed is just absurd, I don't care how you rationalise it. leather is worthless later on but there's certainly enough of it needed early game to warrant a minimum 1 leather drop from every cow. it's not even a matter of demand, including 0 in the chance roll just makes the whole process tedious and unrewarding, and you could not even eat all that beef within a single lifetime.
and nobody uses leather armor, pretty much because it has no place in the game at any time, unless you want reduced armor just to challenge yourself. why grind through so many cows when you spawn, if you can even find any cows, when you could just dig up some iron in a fraction of the time? leather should be made way easier to get, just for the sake of progression. otherwise all it's good for is creating a time sink later on, that holds zero value in terms of gameplay. every feature that exists should have a clear purpose.
the entire enchanting system is also a complete failure, already bested by the community in their spare time. which makes me regret wasting the time to grind out books. this is not an alpha hobby project anymore, mojang is all growns up and requesting money in exchange for goods and services, so they should act like it.
Should every blaze always drop at least one blaze rod when killed? Or should every endermen drop at least one ender pearl when killed? Should there be a maximum time cap on how long your line has to be in the water before you catch a fish? Should creepers always drop at least one gun powder upon death?
yes? is that supposed to be rhetorical or what, why bother asking if you have zero input on the subject.
It is a legitimate question; if one cow should drop its special loot every time it is killed, should the other mobs?
The answer is yes, they should. Blazes and skeletons are literally made of their unique items. Endermen are too obnoxious to fight to get nothing out of it. Creepers capable of igniting also must have gunpowder somewhere in their crunchy, leafy bodies. Cows are obviously wearing their own hides. They added guaranteed porkchops to pigs, so why not extend that certainty mentality?
It is a legitimate question; if one cow should drop its special loot every time it is killed, should the other mobs?
I wouldn't consider leather to be special at all, this has always been a basic necessity they neglected to finish. now all of a sudden we actually need it for something we can't really skip, so people are realising it sucks. what is the point of comparing with other mobs that drop items of completely different use, you don't need blaze rods or ender pearls or gunpowder so early in the game, the thread is about leather.
we should need leather to craft books, just not have to grind through endless cows and piling up enough meat to open a mcdonalds chain in order to craft them.
Should every blaze always drop at least one blaze rod when killed? Or should every endermen drop at least one ender pearl when killed? Should there be a maximum time cap on how long your line has to be in the water before you catch a fish? Should creepers always drop at least one gun powder upon death?
Blazes are spawned from a spawner. Endermen and creepers are randomly spawned and thus have a different spawning behavior than cows. Cows need to be fed, grown, and then killed. At which point there is a random 33.33% failure rate.
However, none of those items are used for to make the completely underused, lowest tier armor. Even with dyeing armor in 1.4, leather armor will most likely still be less used than iron armor. Even dyeing leather armor to look like better armor does not change the fact that you're leather armor took longer to get than the iron armor.
Blazes are spawned from a spawner. Endermen and creepers are randomly spawned and thus have a different spawning behavior than cows. Cows need to be fed, grown, and then killed. At which point there is a random 33.33% failure rate.
However, none of those items are used for to make the completely underused, lowest tier armor. Even with dyeing armor in 1.4, leather armor will most likely still be less used than iron armor. Even dyeing leather armor to look like better armor does not change the fact that you're leather armor took longer to get than the iron armor.
I still fail to see how grinding leather is any different than grinding seeds, mob drops, or anything with a similar drop behavior. Maybe I'm inbred or something....
There is a reason profitable endeavors are called "Cash Cows," in reality, cows are superior to pigs because they provide food, leather, bones, milk, rennet (for cheese), strings for lutes, sausage casing, fertilizer, and more. Perhaps to make things more balanced, cows would need to eat wheat or grass from time to time or they die of starvation without leaving behind any meat? Therefore steak, leather, and bones are realistic drops from cows (and sausage and cheese if those are ever added are realistic food products made from beef and milk).
To clarify, I think cows should drop 1-2 leather instead of 0-2 leather and sheep should drop 0-1 mutton and why not let both have a rare drop of a single bone?
I still fail to see how grinding leather is any different than grinding seeds, mob drops, or anything with a similar drop behavior. Maybe I'm inbred or something....
Leather armor...it's theoretically lower tier than TNT, Eyes of Ender and Ender Pearls, and potions. Seeds only require grinding for the first few then farming yields more than one needs. Also hostile mobs do not require the player to raise them first.
It is a legitimate question; if one cow should drop its special loot every time it is killed, should the other mobs?
No. An argument could be made for this, but it is not the current argument at hand. I and others have addressed multiple times the disparity between cows and other creatures like Blazes, but I suppose I'll outline it for you.
1. Leather is not powerful. It has few uses, and these uses give the player very little power. Blaze rods give access to alchemy and fire resistance potions, as well as other potent crafting recipes.
2. In accordance with 1., acquiring leather should not be, relatively speaking, challenging, nor time-intensive. It's not challenging right now, that's good. But it takes too long for the power we get.
This is why leather ought to be an assured drop, as opposed to more powerful things like Ender pearls.
So, the droprate of other items is mostly irrelevant here. This isn't a thread about "drops are too tedious to get." Blaze rods are fine. Leather is not.
So, let's instate a very subtle change. Not one that will make people's chests overflow with leather, but will allow people to get leather 1. reliably and 2. a little faster. If it's still bad, we can nudge it up again, increasing the max drop by one.
The suggestions for alternate ways to acquire leather (like Rotten Flesh) are pretty good too, as long as it doesn't make it so plentiful.
Cooking rotten flesh and then crafting 4 of the result for one leather seems fair to me.
The notion of making books out of cooked zombie flesh is pretty appealing. However, leather is NOT hard to get in the game, and it is a renewable resource. I have no respect for anyone who thinks leather is hard to get, and that book shelves are hard to make.
I don't believe anyone here is citing the challenge of obtaining leather as much as it is the tedium of it. The original poster already did the math and told us the numbers on how many cows it takes to supply an enchantment table. That's not even accounting for the amount of bookcases it'd take to make a library building. Which isn't exactly a building made entirely out of gold or anything extravagant. It's pretty mundane, actually, so I don't see why it'd take so much time and attention to do.
Tedium ought to be directly proportional to the payoff. Making bookcases isn't that big of a payoff, and yet it's quite a tedious task. Finding diamonds is tedious? Sure it is, but they have tons of uses, and they're exceedingly valuable. That's acceptable. But as it is now, I feel leather takes too much time to acquire.
Well then where is the thread about how collecting ink sacs can be tedious with little payoff, or the thread about how making a perfect sphere out of sand is both tedious and unrewarding. Or maybe someone should request that making 300 cookies be made less tedious because they have somehow decided it is paramount to their minecraft experience.
When 1.3 came out I decided to start a new world, and when it got to the point where it was time to make my enchantment table I set out to get the leather. I settled in a huge desert so I walked for a day until I found a snow biome next to a plains biome. A quick search led me to some wolves, a few bones and breeds later I had a pack of 10 dogs ready and willing. I managed to get enough leather in one minecraft day to make all 15 book cases, and I had 8 puppies left over, and I found a village and walked away with a dozen emeralds. So for three minecraft days (an hour, a mere hour) I managed to have everything I needed to make my enchantment room.
Tedium is in the eye of the beholder, like the rest of minecraft. The game is what you make it.
Again, you're only talking about bookshelves. Not leather itself which was given a new use and will be given another with the next update. The uses are increasing but the amount of leather dropped was not. It doesn't need a big increase but 1-2 or 1-3 would be nice so that there isn't a total chance of failure. Your squid example is not truly applicable because squids are guaranteed a drop and ink sacs do not have uses that are particularly used in mass like bookshelves. Cocoa pods drop 3 beans when grown and each produces 8 cookies. Your examples are not even similar.
Hell, the general attitude was that leather did not drop enough and was not accessible enough to make leather armor worth it. You can get the next higher tier armor within a Minecraft day and it is easier to get, not to mention more easily renewable, than leather. Yeah, iron has many uses but it is common enough to that the effort to get enough is nowhere near the same to get a comparable amount of leather.
Squids drop rate for ink starts at 0, and leather was recently given a more decorative use with the ability to dye each piece a different color. The examples are similar if you put the actual gameplay in perspective the way it should be; subjectively. There is no objective solution to this problem; it is dependent on the way a person plays the game. I managed to get all of the leather I need for everything I need it for what I consider relatively quick. Some people obviously have different ideas of time invested over reward received. Some players, like myself, will go out and kill enough cows to make the books in a single go, and some will carefully capture, breed, and cultivate a leather farmer culture. The players who go hunting may think breeding and slaughtering cows is too tedious and has no action orientation, and the farmer player is more likely to think that hunting will result in death or being lost. For either player the current drop rate is, in my opinion, pretty good.
I'm not trying to start or exacerbate an argument, I'm sorry if it seems that way. I merely want to illustrate that the balance isn't in use versus drop, its play style.Also, continuing with the objectivity of use versus drop, I don't think I have ever used leather armor in earnest. I do, however, think that the recent ability to dye the armor is to give it more of a value in a superficial but beneficial way. Mostly for a SMP and PVP setting, though. For instance, having the ability to trick your opponent into thinking you have on armor (from far away) is nigh invaluable. The rarity of leather suddenly makes sense.
I wouldn't mind so much if hunting for leather was a sustainable option, as it used to be, but that's no longer the case - areas don't repopulate at any appreciable speed unless you breed stock yourself (most players wouldn't realise that repopulation can occur at all if they hadn't read the wiki/forums). Long-term hunting involves moving ever further from your base.
Yes, I agree that short-term hunting is just fine for those who only want a handful of shelves (eg the tiny amount needed for an enchanting room), but I've already made several hundred of the things. The idea of performing that task with the added leather requirement makes me cringe.
Just a note on your cookies example, the amount of wheat needed to craft 300 of the things would, on average, get you somewhat less then 40 leather. That's not even 15 bookshelves, though it IS worth a bit more then a suit of leather armour.
(Though to be fair, it'd likewise only consume about a third of my average crop harvest. Cookies are cheap, and being one of the worst food choices, rightfully so).
Re squid, I believe you are mistaken. Unlike leather drops, you're guarenteed an ink drop for every squid killed. In fact I just ran out into the ocean to the west of my base and within about three minutes obtained 23 sacs before running out of targets, getting a drop every single time.
You sir, are correct about squids, and I am wrong about them! Armed with the knowledge of mob spawning mechanics a hunter would be able to make the right decisions about leather gathering, wouldn't you agree?
I make a lot of cookies. A lot. I like the challenge of only eating cookies for long stretches of time. It makes fighting mobs at night a blast. Again the divergence of actual value versus perceived worth has to be approached. Is leather valuable because you are going to recreate the tajmahal on a 1:1 scale completely out of book cases? Only to you, so yes, books are valuable. But to me, who uses book cases sparingly (i hate how repetitive the texture is when placed concurrently on the same axis) leather isn't as valuable. Some people view emeralds as valuable because of their rarity, I make and use emerald blocks like a kid goes through candy and don't care of their actual in-game pecuniary worth. Armed with the
I will definitely agree, concede even, that leather can be valuable, and should be treated as such. But if I want to make a massive cube with an entirely ice exterior then you will not find me asking for silk touch to be made easier to get. Right now I want to grow potatoes in my game more than anything in the world, but I haven't gotten a single potato to drop from zombies. You will find zero threads from this user asking the drop rate to be increased. That is a poor example because I know the plan is to have the things spawn initially in villager farm plots, but the idea is there. Just because my personal play style dictates that I must place value on something doesn't immediately call for an increase in abundance of that item.
See what I'm saying?
I'm fairly certain most people here see what you're saying. I'm also under the impression we understand your notions of subjectivity. I agree with you. Things like these are subjective.
I don't think anyone's trying to assert it as a fact that "The drop rate is too low." We feel it's too tedious to get leather, according to our playstyles.
By the way, I don't think it's very conducive to the argument by using such horribly exaggerated examples as "I want to build a Taj Mahal out of bookcases." Reading the posts of the proponents of the change, I don't believe anyone here wants to use bookcases for anything than enchantment tables and library buildings, both of which require a large but reasonable amount of bookcases.
I also don't think anyone wants acquisition of leather to be made disproportionately easy. There's a balance between how valuable something actually is, how much of something one needs to attain that value, how easy it is to get it, and how much time must be spent to get it.
We're trying to address the final part of that. Time. We think it takes too long. Again, numbers were crunched on this. Reasonable solutions were forwarded. Would making leather guarantee at least one drop per cow skew things too badly? Would it be out of line with other materials in the game?
I don't think so, considering its uses, and its relative power as a material.
Should every blaze always drop at least one blaze rod when killed? Or should every endermen drop at least one ender pearl when killed? Should there be a maximum time cap on how long your line has to be in the water before you catch a fish? Should creepers always drop at least one gun powder upon death?
Did something get cut off here or is this just an editing error?
I understand what your saying about playstyles but I'd say there's a difference here between leather and the emerald example you gave. While you only care for its aesthetics, there in game use is valuable. They allow the player to purchase supplies; food, tools, armor, rather then gathering them through the traditional methods. So emeralds rarity are balanced around their in-game use as currency.
This is why I see an issue with the leather drop rate, because it doesn't seem to be balanced around anything. People have called it the new barrier to enchanting but as you and I have both pointed out in previous comments, just hunting cows in the immediate area for a minecraft day or two can get you all the leather you need for a enchanting table. It certainly wasn't balanced around leather armor when passive mob spawning changed. Leather armor was, and still is; more time consuming to get then iron armor, weaker then iron armor, and slower to renew then iron armor. Only use left to balance it around is decorations, the books and frames, but the drop rate seems awfully low if that was what leather is supposed to be balanced around. So I don't see what leather drops are balanced around, seems to me like they aren't and that the drop rate is just a leftover from the alpha/beta days with a very different passive mob spawning system.
Oh, well I sort of am. Not saying my opinion is objective truth but I find it rather hard to believe the leather drop rate is balanced based of its current in-game uses. Basically I see a discrepancy between here:
and here
that isn't related to my playstyle but actual game balance.
and nobody uses leather armor, pretty much because it has no place in the game at any time, unless you want reduced armor just to challenge yourself. why grind through so many cows when you spawn, if you can even find any cows, when you could just dig up some iron in a fraction of the time? leather should be made way easier to get, just for the sake of progression. otherwise all it's good for is creating a time sink later on, that holds zero value in terms of gameplay. every feature that exists should have a clear purpose.
the entire enchanting system is also a complete failure, already bested by the community in their spare time. which makes me regret wasting the time to grind out books. this is not an alpha hobby project anymore, mojang is all growns up and requesting money in exchange for goods and services, so they should act like it.
yes? is that supposed to be rhetorical or what, why bother asking if you have zero input on the subject.
It is a legitimate question; if one cow should drop its special loot every time it is killed, should the other mobs?
The answer is yes, they should. Blazes and skeletons are literally made of their unique items. Endermen are too obnoxious to fight to get nothing out of it. Creepers capable of igniting also must have gunpowder somewhere in their crunchy, leafy bodies. Cows are obviously wearing their own hides. They added guaranteed porkchops to pigs, so why not extend that certainty mentality?
I wouldn't consider leather to be special at all, this has always been a basic necessity they neglected to finish. now all of a sudden we actually need it for something we can't really skip, so people are realising it sucks. what is the point of comparing with other mobs that drop items of completely different use, you don't need blaze rods or ender pearls or gunpowder so early in the game, the thread is about leather.
we should need leather to craft books, just not have to grind through endless cows and piling up enough meat to open a mcdonalds chain in order to craft them.
Blazes are spawned from a spawner. Endermen and creepers are randomly spawned and thus have a different spawning behavior than cows. Cows need to be fed, grown, and then killed. At which point there is a random 33.33% failure rate.
However, none of those items are used for to make the completely underused, lowest tier armor. Even with dyeing armor in 1.4, leather armor will most likely still be less used than iron armor. Even dyeing leather armor to look like better armor does not change the fact that you're leather armor took longer to get than the iron armor.
I still fail to see how grinding leather is any different than grinding seeds, mob drops, or anything with a similar drop behavior. Maybe I'm inbred or something....
To clarify, I think cows should drop 1-2 leather instead of 0-2 leather and sheep should drop 0-1 mutton and why not let both have a rare drop of a single bone?
--Ocram
Leather armor...it's theoretically lower tier than TNT, Eyes of Ender and Ender Pearls, and potions. Seeds only require grinding for the first few then farming yields more than one needs. Also hostile mobs do not require the player to raise them first.
No. An argument could be made for this, but it is not the current argument at hand. I and others have addressed multiple times the disparity between cows and other creatures like Blazes, but I suppose I'll outline it for you.
1. Leather is not powerful. It has few uses, and these uses give the player very little power. Blaze rods give access to alchemy and fire resistance potions, as well as other potent crafting recipes.
2. In accordance with 1., acquiring leather should not be, relatively speaking, challenging, nor time-intensive. It's not challenging right now, that's good. But it takes too long for the power we get.
This is why leather ought to be an assured drop, as opposed to more powerful things like Ender pearls.
So, the droprate of other items is mostly irrelevant here. This isn't a thread about "drops are too tedious to get." Blaze rods are fine. Leather is not.
So, let's instate a very subtle change. Not one that will make people's chests overflow with leather, but will allow people to get leather 1. reliably and 2. a little faster. If it's still bad, we can nudge it up again, increasing the max drop by one.