The ideal PvP server would balance the game such that;
A.) There are consequences for death
B.) There's not an easy/no way at all to raid bases without people online to defend them
C.) Scarce/strategic distribution of resources gives actual incentive to wage war on eachother.
As for the first one, many hardcore servers institute a death ban for some indefinite amount of time, I think that's a cheap cop out. I recommend that servers start running the mod Prison Pearl.
This allows people to capture their enemies as prisoners, this adds a whole new layer of strategy because it comes at the cost of the captured player being able to locate their "pearl". This would require the construction of dedicated prisons, full time guards to guard them, and would make for interesting diplomatic/war operations.
As for the second requirement, it can be done with factions. The configuration file for factions gives admins the ability to set it up however they want. People just choose not to because their target audience is the idiots who run around and just want to spawn camp and kill people.
Which brings to mind another necessity
D.) There needs to be a random spawn plugin
This forces people to be able to survive on their own for long enough to find their clan mates, and also makes it harder to just trap and kill people at the spawn because there isn't one.
And for the third requirement it can be done with custom terrain generators, or a custom mapper who works for the server to design maps.
That prison pearl things sounds really interesting. But as for factions, what's stopping a faction from just logging out once they see a powerful enemy running in to attack them? If you make it so that players can tnt other factions' bases to provide a disincentive from logging out while under attack, then what's stopping enemies from just TNTing your base once you logout? Combat Log plugin could prevent this from being an issue to a certain extent, but if you see an enemy before they manage to hit you, you can logout without issue. Even if they do manage to hit, they will only be able to kill you once, and after that you can just not respawn. Also, the faction plugin seems terribly contrived, since theres some magical force stopping you from editing the terrain in land other factions lay claim to, unless you kill them enough. You also will need a map border of course, to stop players from just going out into the far wilderness and never being found.
I don't think a custom map to make ressources scarce would be entirely necessary, since even now it takes a lot of effort getting massive bases filled with loads of resources, and being able to take other players items would still be a powerful incentive to go to war.
Also, I added you on Skype to get further info on what to do for the clan.
That prison pearl things sounds really interesting. But as for factions, what's stopping a faction from just logging out once they see a powerful enemy running in to attack them? If you make it so that players can tnt other factions' bases to provide a disincentive from logging out while under attack, then what's stopping enemies from just TNTing your base once you logout? Combat Log plugin could prevent this from being an issue to a certain extent, but if you see an enemy before they manage to hit you, you can logout without issue. Even if they do manage to hit, they will only be able to kill you once, and after that you can just not respawn. Also, the faction plugin seems terribly contrived, since theres some magical force stopping you from editing the terrain in land other factions lay claim to, unless you kill them enough. You also will need a map border of course, to stop players from just going out into the far wilderness and never being found.
I don't think a custom map to make ressources scarce would be entirely necessary, since even now it takes a lot of effort getting massive bases filled with loads of resources, and being able to take other players items would still be a powerful incentive to go to war.
Also, I added you on Skype to get further info on what to do for the clan.
As I said that can all be fixed by properly configuring the factions plugin, there's timers to prevent that kind of thing from happening. You missed the part where I said that it can be configured to allow no-holds-barred as long as there are people from the faction online, and then there's a timeout to prevent simply logging off during raids.
As for the resources scarcity it sort of makes it harder to get gear meaning more organization and complexity is needed to run an army.
As I said that can all be fixed by properly configuring the factions plugin, there's timers to prevent that kind of thing from happening. You missed the part where I said that it can be configured to allow no-holds-barred as long as there are people from the faction online, and then there's a timeout to prevent simply logging off during raids.
As for the resources scarcity it sort of makes it harder to get gear meaning more organization and complexity is needed to run an army.
TImer logout? That sounds interesting, how does it work? Also, what's stopping players from just not respawning once they die, in order to stop from getting negative power and getting raided? Or did you say that you can destroy on other faction's land as long as some of them are online?
TImer logout? That sounds interesting, how does it work? Also, what's stopping players from just not respawning once they die, in order to stop from getting negative power and getting raided? Or did you say that you can destroy on other faction's land as long as some of them are online?
I said that as long as people are online, everything can be done to the base. You can raid it, you can break it, you can blow it sky high. As soon as the last member of a faction logs off, a timer starts. The time this timer runs for is configurable. For as long as that timer is still going, the raiding ability is still in effect. This prevents people logging off to escape raids.
The whole basis of my first post was based off the sentence "Factions can be configured to do this, but no one knows it because server owners refuse to do so."
I said that as long as people are online, everything can be done to the base. You can raid it, you can break it, you can blow it sky high. As soon as the last member of a faction logs off, a timer starts. The time this timer runs for is configurable. For as long as that timer is still going, the raiding ability is still in effect. This prevents people logging off to escape raids.
The whole basis of my first post was based off the sentence "Factions can be configured to do this, but no one knows it because server owners refuse to do so."
Interesting ideas, never knew factions could do that. Still, my concern is that people will just be watching a faction until all of them log out, and so due to the timer, will greif the base right after everyone in the faction has logged out, but the timer hasn't finished.
Another idea that might fix the problem would be to have all blocks be breakable at all times, regardless of if another faction owns them, but only have the server up for a limited, but regular time. This could allow for players from your faction to be able to defend the base at all times to protect the base, while still providing a disincentive to logging out.
Interesting ideas, never knew factions could do that. Still, my concern is that people will just be watching a faction until all of them log out, and so due to the timer, will greif the base right after everyone in the faction has logged out, but the timer hasn't finished.
Another idea that might fix the problem would be to have all blocks be breakable at all times, regardless of if another faction owns them, but only have the server up for a limited, but regular time. This could allow for players from your faction to be able to defend the base at all times to protect the base, while still providing a disincentive to logging out.
We discussed this on the Art of War thread and having a server up for a short time is neither good for players from different time zones nor something that will be able to keep running. You need donations to keep a server going, and people won't donate to servers you can only access for a certain time every day.
We discussed this on the Art of War thread and having a server up for a short time is neither good for players from different time zones nor something that will be able to keep running. You need donations to keep a server going, and people won't donate to servers you can only access for a certain time every day.
The timezones wouldn't be too big an issue, if you keep it at a time where players from different time zones across the us would be able to access it, but it would be a pain only being able to go on the server at certain times, and for those outside the us. Come to think of it, are there any multiplayer games where pvp is about getting the other player's resources, where combat logging and things of the like aren't an issue?
The timezones wouldn't be too big an issue, if you keep it at a time where players from different time zones across the us would be able to access it, but it would be a pain only being able to go on the server at certain times, and for those outside the us. Come to think of it, are there any multiplayer games where pvp is about getting the other player's resources, where combat logging and things of the like aren't an issue?
Your problem is forgetting about the time zones that cover the rest of the world.
Yeah.... Still, the majority of minecrafters come from the US (I think).
Unlikely, and it doesn't matter; you can't just shut those people out. I understand you think the time limit thing is a good idea, but its just not practical in reality.
Unlikely, and it doesn't matter; you can't just shut those people out. I understand you think the time limit thing is a good idea, but its just not practical in reality.
I suppose you could have multiple different maps that have different uptimes, but that would cause the players to be dispersed into too many different maps, and not be able to make as big clans.
I suppose you could have multiple different maps that have different uptimes, but that would cause the players to be dispersed into too many different maps, and not be able to make as big clans.
Exactly, the idea just doesn't hold up.
In other news I'll be adding new sections/basically butchering the entire thread to make it relevant to modern PvP soon
Hi I have awas been interested in the art of war in minecraft and i wanted to ask a question about the possble applications of calvary in war as of the 1.6 update. A very mobile troop of calvary bowmen could be very useful in a skirmish as they could fire and retreat to a safe distance and fire again. (similar to he skirmish mode for archers and archer cav in the total war series especially shogun 2). Also i a certain thelightning attacks of swordman could turn the tides of battles what do you guys think?
Hi I have awas been interested in the art of war in minecraft and i wanted to ask a question about the possble applications of calvary in war as of the 1.6 update. A very mobile troop of calvary bowmen could be very useful in a skirmish as they could fire and retreat to a safe distance and fire again. (similar to he skirmish mode for archers and archer cav in the total war series especially shogun 2). Also i a certain thelightning attacks of swordman could turn the tides of battles what do you guys think?
You could also use horses to take out enemy archers, since horses could outrun them. However, these tactics are useless in the current state of Minecraft warfare, since all you need to win is the either sneak up on them and kill them before they logout, or if they don't have any protection plugins, steal all their items once they logout. The only real use I could see for horses would be to allow players to scout for bases to raid much more quickly with horses, although even this would be of little use, since most bases are either deep underground or high in the eather. Also, what lightening attackes are your talking about?
My reply will be, comparatively with the massive text of the OP, very short:
I am apathetic towards doing warfare in Minecraft, but I both adore Sun Tzu's The Art of War as a treatise on how many human relations are developed and consider you did a fantastic work on adapting it to the reality of the Minecraft gameplay. Especially on how both texts include examples. (Actually, in The Art of War, the examples added as other Chinese military generals as commentary occupy more space than Sun Tzu's parts.) Very, very well done.
Oh, and one small inquiry: given how you seem to be interested and knowledgeable on Minecraft warfare, do TNT cannons really have an use in unmodded gameplay? Most of them always seemed to me to be the most unpractical thing ever, given the building and undeployment time.
My reply will be, comparatively with the massive text of the OP, very short:
I am apathetic towards doing warfare in Minecraft, but I both adore Sun Tzu's The Art of War as a treatise on how many human relations are developed and consider you did a fantastic work on adapting it to the reality of the Minecraft gameplay. Especially on how both texts include examples. (Actually, in The Art of War, the examples added as other Chinese military generals as commentary occupy more space than Sun Tzu's parts.) Very, very well done.
Oh, and one small inquiry: given how you seem to be interested and knowledgeable on Minecraft warfare, do TNT cannons really have an use in unmodded gameplay? Most of them always seemed to me to be the most unpractical thing ever, given the building and undeployment time.
Warfare in it's entirety has no use in unModded Minecraft gameplay. You have to have mods on a server that can protect from combat logging, griefing bases when all the players are offline, and a way to prevent players from hiding deep underground or far in the sky. If that is accomplished, then the only use I could see for it would be to destroy enemy fortifications from far away, if the fortifications are not made of obsidian. Even then, tnt cannons are very expensive and clunky, and the enemy will be able to rebuild their fort faster than you can blow it down.
Also, what lightening attackes are your talking about?
Baically a charge to the flank wth swords to a.kill some people then run away to soften them up or b. a rush to a specific goal ex. Ablow there tnt canons up. also an advantage might be t rush enemies with a bucket of lava and burn them
Als ive been thinking of the weaknessesto cavary. Water and lava would beaproble. Also tripwire traps might bevery effectie against horsmen since there farther frm the ground and have a horse in there view.
Oh ps we are assuming that all of this is being done on an optimal war serveroh and splash invisibility potions are over powered if you make your horse and you invsible!
That prison pearl things sounds really interesting. But as for factions, what's stopping a faction from just logging out once they see a powerful enemy running in to attack them? If you make it so that players can tnt other factions' bases to provide a disincentive from logging out while under attack, then what's stopping enemies from just TNTing your base once you logout? Combat Log plugin could prevent this from being an issue to a certain extent, but if you see an enemy before they manage to hit you, you can logout without issue. Even if they do manage to hit, they will only be able to kill you once, and after that you can just not respawn. Also, the faction plugin seems terribly contrived, since theres some magical force stopping you from editing the terrain in land other factions lay claim to, unless you kill them enough. You also will need a map border of course, to stop players from just going out into the far wilderness and never being found.
I don't think a custom map to make ressources scarce would be entirely necessary, since even now it takes a lot of effort getting massive bases filled with loads of resources, and being able to take other players items would still be a powerful incentive to go to war.
Also, I added you on Skype to get further info on what to do for the clan.
It's a minecraft "War" guide, hence the name "Art of War".
As I said that can all be fixed by properly configuring the factions plugin, there's timers to prevent that kind of thing from happening. You missed the part where I said that it can be configured to allow no-holds-barred as long as there are people from the faction online, and then there's a timeout to prevent simply logging off during raids.
As for the resources scarcity it sort of makes it harder to get gear meaning more organization and complexity is needed to run an army.
Imperator - Augustus
TImer logout? That sounds interesting, how does it work? Also, what's stopping players from just not respawning once they die, in order to stop from getting negative power and getting raided? Or did you say that you can destroy on other faction's land as long as some of them are online?
I said that as long as people are online, everything can be done to the base. You can raid it, you can break it, you can blow it sky high. As soon as the last member of a faction logs off, a timer starts. The time this timer runs for is configurable. For as long as that timer is still going, the raiding ability is still in effect. This prevents people logging off to escape raids.
The whole basis of my first post was based off the sentence "Factions can be configured to do this, but no one knows it because server owners refuse to do so."
Imperator - Augustus
Interesting ideas, never knew factions could do that. Still, my concern is that people will just be watching a faction until all of them log out, and so due to the timer, will greif the base right after everyone in the faction has logged out, but the timer hasn't finished.
Another idea that might fix the problem would be to have all blocks be breakable at all times, regardless of if another faction owns them, but only have the server up for a limited, but regular time. This could allow for players from your faction to be able to defend the base at all times to protect the base, while still providing a disincentive to logging out.
We discussed this on the Art of War thread and having a server up for a short time is neither good for players from different time zones nor something that will be able to keep running. You need donations to keep a server going, and people won't donate to servers you can only access for a certain time every day.
Imperator - Augustus
The timezones wouldn't be too big an issue, if you keep it at a time where players from different time zones across the us would be able to access it, but it would be a pain only being able to go on the server at certain times, and for those outside the us. Come to think of it, are there any multiplayer games where pvp is about getting the other player's resources, where combat logging and things of the like aren't an issue?
Your problem is forgetting about the time zones that cover the rest of the world.
Imperator - Augustus
Yeah.... Still, the majority of minecrafters come from the US (I think).
Unlikely, and it doesn't matter; you can't just shut those people out. I understand you think the time limit thing is a good idea, but its just not practical in reality.
Imperator - Augustus
I suppose you could have multiple different maps that have different uptimes, but that would cause the players to be dispersed into too many different maps, and not be able to make as big clans.
Exactly, the idea just doesn't hold up.
In other news I'll be adding new sections/basically butchering the entire thread to make it relevant to modern PvP soon
Imperator - Augustus
Nice. And it would be great if you included a section about ideal servers and server plugins.
You could also use horses to take out enemy archers, since horses could outrun them. However, these tactics are useless in the current state of Minecraft warfare, since all you need to win is the either sneak up on them and kill them before they logout, or if they don't have any protection plugins, steal all their items once they logout. The only real use I could see for horses would be to allow players to scout for bases to raid much more quickly with horses, although even this would be of little use, since most bases are either deep underground or high in the eather. Also, what lightening attackes are your talking about?
I am apathetic towards doing warfare in Minecraft, but I both adore Sun Tzu's The Art of War as a treatise on how many human relations are developed and consider you did a fantastic work on adapting it to the reality of the Minecraft gameplay. Especially on how both texts include examples. (Actually, in The Art of War, the examples added as other Chinese military generals as commentary occupy more space than Sun Tzu's parts.) Very, very well done.
Oh, and one small inquiry: given how you seem to be interested and knowledgeable on Minecraft warfare, do TNT cannons really have an use in unmodded gameplay? Most of them always seemed to me to be the most unpractical thing ever, given the building and undeployment time.
Warfare in it's entirety has no use in unModded Minecraft gameplay. You have to have mods on a server that can protect from combat logging, griefing bases when all the players are offline, and a way to prevent players from hiding deep underground or far in the sky. If that is accomplished, then the only use I could see for it would be to destroy enemy fortifications from far away, if the fortifications are not made of obsidian. Even then, tnt cannons are very expensive and clunky, and the enemy will be able to rebuild their fort faster than you can blow it down.
Baically a charge to the flank wth swords to a.kill some people then run away to soften them up or b. a rush to a specific goal ex. Ablow there tnt canons up. also an advantage might be t rush enemies with a bucket of lava and burn them
Als ive been thinking of the weaknessesto cavary. Water and lava would beaproble. Also tripwire traps might bevery effectie against horsmen since there farther frm the ground and have a horse in there view.
Oh ps we are assuming that all of this is being done on an optimal war serveroh and splash invisibility potions are over powered if you make your horse and you invsible!