It became an attack when you suggested that his assumption of a different gender while on this forum, somehow rendered an argument completely unrelated to that topic invalid. That, Veeshush, is when it went from being "just an insult" (or even "just an observationof oddness"), and became an ad hominem abusive.
You really don't get this whole internet thing do you? That kind of thing happens all the time. Male pretends to be a girl to laugh his ass off when some other lonely member hits on him.
I haven't, yet. Not all insults are attacks ad hominem. I haven't suggested that your on-topic posts or claims are in any way invalidated by the fact you're being an ass-hat. I've only pointed out that you are being an ass-hat.
No go. Nice try. Saying "you're just a troll Veeshush" is saying "you're just arguing to be an asshole and stir the pot". That's what the term "troll" is generally applied to. And what is the next step when dealing with a troll? Most suggest ignoring them. So I could conclude from that you're basically saying to ignore my valid points because I have ulterior motives.
I know one born-as-a-man individual, who chooses to self-identify as a woman instead. She uses the female pronoun on places like Facebook, and wears female clothing whenever possible. I knew another such, several years back, but we've drifted out of touch since then. Anyway ... it's called Transsexualism; some people truly want to be a gender other than the one they were born into. Sometimes, to the point of surgery, even.
Oh boy, here we go... I'm glad you're straight out assuming that this is indeed a "transgendered individual" and not at all just some kid just ****ing around. None of his other online profiles would suggest he's trans-gendered. And no that's not an invasion of privacy for me to go search for what he freely makes public. If I were to post his phone number and address, then you could *****.
So, maybe Zontafer wants to be a girl? And online venues are just one place where s/he explores that part of themselves? Certainly, their assuming a different gender does you no harm, AND HAS NO BEARING ON THE VALIDITY OF THEIR ARGUMENTS. So why get such a gigantic hair up your ass about it ...? (I tend to suspect the answer tot hat is homophobia on your part, but obviously, I cannot prove it.)
Ahahaha, yeah sure. Well you're already on a roll of spouting off things you can't prove, assumptions and just plain talking about things you don't know anything about. By the way, I find it OFFENSIVE that you're comparing transsexualism to homophobia, as if to say all transgenders are homosexual. They are not the same thing. You lose again.
Therefor, any attempt to use either of those points, as supposed leverage to discount or discredit his or her posts to the topic of this thread, are a logical fallacy
None of his 4 some posts in this thread held any merit on their own though. He didn't know what he was talking about, kind of like yourself-OH I see what this is about here! It just hit a nerve with you because you can surely relate to him.
Which translates worth about dipkiss into "game developer" - kind of like "electrician" oesn't map very well onto "electrical engineer", even though both deal with electricity, wires, and switches.
So he loses merit because he's not a game developer? Certainly, their assuming a different gender coding profession does you no harm, AND HAS NO BEARING ON THE VALIDITY OF THEIR ARGUMENTS
Yeah it's obviously not an argument against Notch being lazy or an excuse for being lazy. I think of it more as a plea to be more understanding of Notch. You know how the saying goes. "Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes."
No wait, that wasn't it...
I dunno, pleas for understanding rarely come hand in hand with rage. I always thought of it as "I have no logical argument to counter with, but look, I can make an angry, emotional statement!"
Here's an idea: put your money where your mouth is, if you're such an expert coder. Go make your own game, and manage to sell two million units without spending a dime on advertising, and before the game is ready for final release.
...
Good luck with that.
I think Notch is doing a satisfactory job (in comparison to what I payed for he is).
But this argument is a broken ass dead horse strawman that needs to be cremated with naplam.
Ill rebutt with a age old saying "You don't need to be a cook to know the food tastes ****"
I mean I wish the naysayers making assumptions about Notch, Mojang and the Game in general would STFU and stop spewing ill imformed nonsense but don't go defending him with such weak arguments...
I'd love it if the person you berated was a programmer and called your bluff. To then end up making a game that overshadows Minecraft in every way.
Highly unlikely but I'd love to see the irony play out and also i'd like to play a game better then Mincraft.
Blizzard takes in $15/month from some 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 players, each month, in North America alone. That's more than MineCraft has made total, ever.
Specifically: I bought Minecraft back in Alpha - late September or early October of 2010, IIRC. I paid ~$15US for it.
I also subscribed to WoW, from September of 2010 until April of 2011. That's seven months, at $15 each, or $105.
Why should a game that has only gotten $15 from me, be expected to update more frequently than a game that has gotten $105 from me? (Not counting that I've subscribed for years before September 2010, nor that I've bought all the expansions so far.)
Simply put: anyone that EXPECTED weekly updates? Was and is a fool.
You are the one that doesn't get it.
We are not talking about frequent updates, We are talking about stable updates.
That alone makes your argument invalid.
Just to play along let me reply to your argument.
Terraria was made in 4 months and is much more stable, has much more content and costs way less than minecraft. If 2 people can make a new game in 4 months without ****ing it up then why the hell notch and his team make a stable update in 2 months?
Terraria was made in 4 months and is much more stable, has much more content and costs way less than minecraft. If 2 people can make a new game in 4 months without ****ing it up then why the hell notch and his team make a stable update in 2 months?
He still never answered me why open source software and closed source free software still maintains a level of stability and accountability where Minecraft doesn't. I'll play the Linux card and say entire stable Operating Systems can be built freely and maintain the ability to pump out patches that actually work. I'm mean, sure there's cases where the opposite happens for sure, but in general it can be done. Point was, money never had anything to do with it. Free or not it's still about maintaining some level of responsibility for a person's work. Mojang doesn't. Beta versions of Linux do.
You are the one that doesn't get it.
We are not talking about frequent updates, We are talking about stable updates.
That alone makes your argument invalid.
Just to play along let me reply to your argument. Terraria was made in 4 months and is much more stable, has much more content and costs way less than minecraft. If 2 people can make a new game in 4 months without ****ing it up then why the hell notch and his team make a stable update in 2 months?
In defense the absence of a Z axis must have made it a tad easier to make. Teraria despite how fun it is to play is limited in features (Read; Features not content). And Teraria is not without its faults. Sometimes I find I am unable to interact with a door no matter how my character is orientated, this can be frustrating when beset by zombies. Some could consider this game breaking.
But you are right despite the differences between 2 games that are totaly divergent in their genre this latest update of minecraft felt undertested, didn't they internally test it? If they did it couldn't have been that thoroughly tested. I know we are in Beta and technically are beta testers making it sort of our obligation to weed out bugs. I understand and acsept this.
Although many upon many people play and treat this game like it's a fully released gold version and they are entitled too. Notch may want to take more care with his game, I mean he didn't know how severe some of the bugs really where in SMP. I know the tool vaporization bug is back for me but that's more to do with the fact we are using a unstable version of Bukkit I think, but it can't all be Bukkit's fault. It did bring back an old bug from original and the mod is only as stable as the program it's based on.
So yeah.
I am so tired of seeing the same age old excuses being used over and over again:
Argument: Notch is lazy
Counter: MAKE YOUR OWN GAME, BLARGH FAN BOY RAGE
Some of us have made games. The difference is that none get advertised as much as Notch's.
Don't say that Minecraft doesn't get advertised. Word-of-mouth is still advertising.
3D vs 2D is also a pointless argument. Beyond collision handling (which is and always has been rock-solid in Minecraft, apart from when you get stuck in a block) there's no reason it's harder. Compare "new Creeper(1, 1, 1)" to "new Creeper(1, 1)"
Many of us have made games. The difference is that none get advertised as much as Notch's.
Don't say that Minecraft doesn't get advertised. Word-of-mouth is still advertising.
3D vs 2D is also a pointless argument. Beyond collision handling (which is and always has been rock-solid in Minecraft, apart from when you get stuck in a block) there's no reason it's harder. Compare "new Creeper(1, 1, 1)" to "new Creeper(1, 1)"
DaBiggman's point is you don't have to make a game to criticize a game. And the argument "You do better" is the same as sticking you fingers in your ears and screaming "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA" when someone points out a problem.
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It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
DaBiggman's point is you don't have to make a game to criticize a game. And the argument "You do better" is the same as sticking you fingers in your ears and screaming "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA" when someone points out a problem.
Exactly. Why are you quoting me instead of someone who's saying "You do better"?
Some of us have made games. The difference is that none get advertised as much as Notch's.
Don't say that Minecraft doesn't get advertised. Word-of-mouth is still advertising.
3D vs 2D is also a pointless argument. Beyond collision handling (which is and always has been rock-solid in Minecraft, apart from when you get stuck in a block) there's no reason it's harder. Compare "new Creeper(1, 1, 1)" to "new Creeper(1, 1)"
In my experience, 3D graphics programming is actually quite a bit harder than 2D graphics programming. I suspect this is why Notch went with a comparatively-simple voxel-based system with blocky graphics.
Take the following as an example: Say you have a relatively simple shape, a rectangle that's 10x10x40, it would have the following points:
Now, simultaneously rotate it positively around the X axis, the Y axis and the Z axis at the same rate with the center being at (5, 5, 10). Map each of the points at intervals of 1 degree for the duration of a full rotation of each.
At the very least, the difference is greater than you suggest. The linear algebra gets more difficult (more tedious).
I kinda want my money back. I would've paid $15 dollars for what we have now, I thought there was going to be regular updates like once a week or something.
... which is when this particular subthread of the discussion was born.
In my experience, 3D graphics programming is actually quite a bit harder than 2D graphics programming. I suspect this is why Notch went with a comparatively-simple voxel-based system with blocky graphics.
Take the following as an example: Say you have a relatively simple shape, a rectangle that's 10x10x40, it would have the following points:
Now, simultaneously rotate it positively around the X axis, the Y axis and the Z axis at the same rate with the center being at (5, 5, 10). Map each of the points at intervals of 1 degree for the duration of a full rotation of each.
At the very least, the difference is greater than you suggest. The linear algebra gets more difficult (more tedious).
You evidently have NO experience in programming at all. There is absolutely NO reason to program at that level. All common graphics cards (and on-board graphics) can run OpenGL and DirectX. Those interfaces make it possible for the programmer to not have to worry about low level stuff like what you explained. It's all done with objects: rotateObject(degrees), translateObject(x, y, z), etc. Programming in 3D is incredibly easy these days, just as easy as 2D. It just takes more art and greater imagination.
But, in using Java, Notch crippled Minecraft. Minecraft is based on a static spacial grid where every grid space is occupied by an object type like dirt, stone or air. This is the main reason why we can't have rotating objects, torches and redstone taking up a whole block, and the reason the piston mod has to "fake it" when translating blocks: The block during translation is a "ghost" object image and does not exists in the game world (just like falling sand).
Yes, Minecraft is fun, but it will never grow past it's inherent limitations.
You evidently have NO experience in programming at all. There is absolutely NO reason to program at that level. All common graphics cards (and on-board graphics) can run OpenGL and DirectX. Those interfaces make it possible for the programmer to not have to worry about low level stuff like what you explained. It's all done with objects: rotateObject(degrees), translateObject(x, y, z), etc. Programming in 3D is incredibly easy these days, just as easy as 2D. It just takes more art and greater imagination.
A lot of it can be abstracted away, yes, but someone had to write the code that abstracts it. That's 3D graphics programming. That also doesn't mean that the game developer is immune to such calculations. Complex movements through 3D space can still require them.
Also, pathfinding in a 3D environment becomes that much more complicated. Really, any instance where you have to deal with the world in a programmatic fashion jumps an order of complexity when going from 2D to 3D.
Hmm... Now that I rearrange things in my mind and think about it logically... He has said many, many things that he would add to the game. Maybe (or obviously) too many for one man to accomplish before the finished product. So let's think minecraft reaches it's true potential when Notch has added everything (well, maybe not everything but you know what I mean) he has ever said about adding to the game, completed the already lacking features and fixed most (if not all) of the bugs. This is what all of us want.
I agree, realistically thinking his chances of adding everything (or most of the features that would make minecraft 'full') for the "finished version of minecraft" (after beta) are very slim. I believe minecraft will not have reached it's full potential when it gets off beta but I hope minecraft has at least fewer bugs and the unfinished features will be complete by then (for a more polished feel of minecraft). That would satisfy me for the time being but I would then expect Notch starting to work on his intended features right away. He has promised to keep adding to the game after the 'release date', so I'll give him some time to do that. If this is not what will happen, then I'll be dissappointed. We'll just have wait and watch how this works out in time.
A side note: My opinion about Notch's way of working; he should take minecraft more seriously, he should grow out of his stubborn shell and hire more devs, he should hire a q&a team because as it is now, the beta testers (us) don't have a good communication method to reach the dev and his mind shouldn't be so restricted to this whole indie thing (he takes that too seriously). In short, he should treat minecraft like a million dollar game and be more consistent about it. But it seems like he won't... So I can only hope his own method can carry minecraft to reach great heights. (Although I think he could do it much faster with more devs) If his method can't do it, then we have all the reason to rage. :wink.gif:
Ugh, one more thing to add this wall of text: I agree that the latest "bug fix update" was a bit of a fail. Which shows he isn't "a god among coders". But hey, we're all human. The update also pointed out how slow and lacking the information flow between beta testers'and Notch is atm. <- Needs a fix
Oh, and sorry about the wall of text. I don't know my limits when I write.
I do not mind walls of text, as they have some separation and are not confusingly written. I also agree with everything you said. If he proves me wrong, I will gladly say I was wrong, but not until then. There are many things I expect to never see that he had said yes to when it started, and the about section of minecraft.net where he says he wanted to make survival too hard over too easy.
I am not a chef, but this tastes like it was cooked in a sewer...
Why would you have to be a chef to say something tastes bad? That would be just stupid.
That's not at all what I said.
IF you cite your being a fchef as well as a justification for stating that something tastes horrible ... then you had damned well better actually be a chef. Preferably, of a relevant and appropriate discipline (pastry chefs should not be citing their supposed "authority" when judging soup, for example).
I've seen people (maybe not you, but others that have used the same defense) say this to people that have not done any coding. It becomes an attack of "if you can't do it or do better, shut up."
And it happens all of the time.
Also, my apologies. I read that as "If you complain, you have to qualify the complaint" not "If you claim to be something, back it up in your complaint."
My statement still stands for those who use the defense "You do better."
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It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
I dunno, pleas for understanding rarely come hand in hand with rage. I always thought of it as "I have no logical argument to counter with, but look, I can make an angry, emotional statement!"
True, I'm just saying that it's pretty obviously not a useful argument but when you think about it, it does't do too badly as a plea for understanding. I think.
In any case I'm pretty sure that there is room for Notch to improve his processes and performance. Because we want more and better minecraft sooner (except for people who want it to be stable), a lot of us would like for Notch to improve and be less 'lazy'. Unfortunately there's not really much we can do since once we've bought the game he already has our money and we don't really have any leverage. So people who want Notch to change feel powerless and proceed to make a lot of noise on the forums since it's the only thing they can do. Unfortunately even if we all decided to agree that Notch is a horrible person or something, it wouldn't change a thing about the situation.
So perhaps instead of arguing over whether or not Notch is lazy and whether he has a right to be as he is, we should consider what we want to change about the situation and whether we can realistically do anything to achieve it. Otherwise we're just wearing out our keyboards needlessly.
[edit]
I suspect the 'argument' "you do better" is a lazy way of saying "You don't know whether anyone could do better than Notch in the same circumstances, so prove it by trying it yourself." which of course is an unrealistic thing to ask plus the person asking that hasn't tried it theirself either to prove that it isn't possible. The problem with this whole situation is that no one knows whether anyone else really has any experience or authority in software development and project management on this level.
For instance, I haven't touched Java in about 5 years and even that was just a fairly small amount. I pretty much only use C# in my job. And the 3D stuff I've done was either VB6 with DirectX (and that was just a bit of messing around to make a screensaver) or C++ with OpenGL. Actually I did make a strange 'impossible geometry' 3D maze game a while back but it was just a toy and I only showed it to a few people. While the actual significant software projects I've worked in are about as far from games and indy as you can get. So there's not really much I can say definitively about the situation.
Also, my apologies. I read that as "If you complain, you have to qualify the complaint" not "If you claim to be something, back it up in your complaint."
My statement still stands for those who use the defense "You do better."
Fair enough ... but I DO still say "you do better" ... when someone claims some especial authority (like, in this thread, "I'm a coder too"). :smile.gif:
[edit]
I suspect the 'argument' "you do better" is a lazy way of saying "You don't know whether anyone could do better than Notch in the same circumstances, so prove it by trying it yourself." which of course is an unrealistic thing to ask plus the person asking that hasn't tried it theirself either to prove that it isn't possible. The problem with this whole situation is that no one knows whether anyone else really has any experience or authority in software development and project management on this level.
Only those who claim to have that exprience or authority, should really be the ones being targetted with "you do it better, then" comments. Which is really just a matter of telling them "put your money where your mouth is".
Me? I won't ever claim that coding MineCraft couldhave been done better, nor worse. I know I don't have a fecking clue - I'm not a coder. But I still bristle at people throwing out claims that "I'm a coder, so I know it could have been done better", leaving no room for uncertainty, admitting no margin of error. Well, if the person making that claim is so absolutely certain of their claim ... let's see them prove it, is how I feel.
True, I'm just saying that it's pretty obviously not a useful argument but when you think about it, it does't do too badly as a plea for understanding. I think.
[edit]
I suspect the 'argument' "you do better" is a lazy way of saying "You don't know whether anyone could do better than Notch in the same circumstances, so prove it by trying it yourself." which of course is an unrealistic thing to ask plus the person asking that hasn't tried it theirself either to prove that it isn't possible. The problem with this whole situation is that no one knows whether anyone else really has any experience or authority in software development and project management on this level.
For instance, I haven't touched Java in about 5 years and even that was just a fairly small amount. I pretty much only use C# in my job. And the 3D stuff I've done was either VB6 with DirectX (and that was just a bit of messing around to make a screensaver) or C++ with OpenGL. Actually I did make a strange 'impossible geometry' 3D maze game a while back but it was just a toy and I only showed it to a few people. While the actual significant software projects I've worked in are about as far from games and indy as you can get. So there's not really much I can say definitively about the situation.
I think it's a pretty terrible plea for understanding, since it is usually given in the manner of an argument, and frequently with insulting overtones. Both of those things set up the reader to defend their idea, not come around to yours.
And I really don't think it's a lazy way of saying anything. From what I've seen, it usually gets thrown out when someone really wants to fire back against someone naysaying Notch, but just doesn't have any valid arguments to use. They can't fire on the argument, so they fire on the arguer, and words are just a feeble attempt to convey the emotion. They're not meant in a literal fashion.
In any case I'm pretty sure that there is room for Notch to improve his processes and performance. Because we want more and better minecraft sooner (except for people who want it to be stable), a lot of us would like for Notch to improve and be less 'lazy'. Unfortunately there's not really much we can do since once we've bought the game he already has our money and we don't really have any leverage. So people who want Notch to change feel powerless and proceed to make a lot of noise on the forums since it's the only thing they can do. Unfortunately even if we all decided to agree that Notch is a horrible person or something, it wouldn't change a thing about the situation.
So perhaps instead of arguing over whether or not Notch is lazy and whether he has a right to be as he is, we should consider what we want to change about the situation and whether we can realistically do anything to achieve it. Otherwise we're just wearing out our keyboards needlessly.
This is a good point, sadly, I don't think it'll ever come about. There are those that would or will try, but this is a terrible environment for them to try in.
You really don't get this whole internet thing do you? That kind of thing happens all the time. Male pretends to be a girl to laugh his ass off when some other lonely member hits on him.
No go. Nice try. Saying "you're just a troll Veeshush" is saying "you're just arguing to be an asshole and stir the pot". That's what the term "troll" is generally applied to. And what is the next step when dealing with a troll? Most suggest ignoring them. So I could conclude from that you're basically saying to ignore my valid points because I have ulterior motives.
Oh boy, here we go... I'm glad you're straight out assuming that this is indeed a "transgendered individual" and not at all just some kid just ****ing around. None of his other online profiles would suggest he's trans-gendered. And no that's not an invasion of privacy for me to go search for what he freely makes public. If I were to post his phone number and address, then you could *****.
Ahahaha, yeah sure. Well you're already on a roll of spouting off things you can't prove, assumptions and just plain talking about things you don't know anything about. By the way, I find it OFFENSIVE that you're comparing transsexualism to homophobia, as if to say all transgenders are homosexual. They are not the same thing. You lose again.
None of his 4 some posts in this thread held any merit on their own though. He didn't know what he was talking about, kind of like yourself-OH I see what this is about here! It just hit a nerve with you because you can surely relate to him.
So he loses merit because he's not a game developer? Certainly, their assuming a different
gendercoding profession does you no harm, AND HAS NO BEARING ON THE VALIDITY OF THEIR ARGUMENTSI dunno, pleas for understanding rarely come hand in hand with rage. I always thought of it as "I have no logical argument to counter with, but look, I can make an angry, emotional statement!"
I think Notch is doing a satisfactory job (in comparison to what I payed for he is).
But this argument is a broken ass dead horse strawman that needs to be cremated with naplam.
Ill rebutt with a age old saying "You don't need to be a cook to know the food tastes ****"
I mean I wish the naysayers making assumptions about Notch, Mojang and the Game in general would STFU and stop spewing ill imformed nonsense but don't go defending him with such weak arguments...
I'd love it if the person you berated was a programmer and called your bluff. To then end up making a game that overshadows Minecraft in every way.
Highly unlikely but I'd love to see the irony play out and also i'd like to play a game better then Mincraft.
You are the one that doesn't get it.
We are not talking about frequent updates, We are talking about stable updates.
That alone makes your argument invalid.
Just to play along let me reply to your argument.
Terraria was made in 4 months and is much more stable, has much more content and costs way less than minecraft. If 2 people can make a new game in 4 months without ****ing it up then why the hell notch and his team make a stable update in 2 months?
Use for different variety of food
Now check out others suggestions
Climbing your @$$ off in minecraft
He still never answered me why open source software and closed source free software still maintains a level of stability and accountability where Minecraft doesn't. I'll play the Linux card and say entire stable Operating Systems can be built freely and maintain the ability to pump out patches that actually work. I'm mean, sure there's cases where the opposite happens for sure, but in general it can be done. Point was, money never had anything to do with it. Free or not it's still about maintaining some level of responsibility for a person's work. Mojang doesn't. Beta versions of Linux do.
In defense the absence of a Z axis must have made it a tad easier to make. Teraria despite how fun it is to play is limited in features (Read; Features not content). And Teraria is not without its faults. Sometimes I find I am unable to interact with a door no matter how my character is orientated, this can be frustrating when beset by zombies. Some could consider this game breaking.
But you are right despite the differences between 2 games that are totaly divergent in their genre this latest update of minecraft felt undertested, didn't they internally test it? If they did it couldn't have been that thoroughly tested. I know we are in Beta and technically are beta testers making it sort of our obligation to weed out bugs. I understand and acsept this.
Although many upon many people play and treat this game like it's a fully released gold version and they are entitled too. Notch may want to take more care with his game, I mean he didn't know how severe some of the bugs really where in SMP. I know the tool vaporization bug is back for me but that's more to do with the fact we are using a unstable version of Bukkit I think, but it can't all be Bukkit's fault. It did bring back an old bug from original and the mod is only as stable as the program it's based on.
So yeah.
Some of us have made games. The difference is that none get advertised as much as Notch's.
Don't say that Minecraft doesn't get advertised. Word-of-mouth is still advertising.
3D vs 2D is also a pointless argument. Beyond collision handling (which is and always has been rock-solid in Minecraft, apart from when you get stuck in a block) there's no reason it's harder. Compare "new Creeper(1, 1, 1)" to "new Creeper(1, 1)"
DaBiggman's point is you don't have to make a game to criticize a game. And the argument "You do better" is the same as sticking you fingers in your ears and screaming "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA" when someone points out a problem.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Exactly. Why are you quoting me instead of someone who's saying "You do better"?
Clicked the wrong reply button...
Sorry about that.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
In my experience, 3D graphics programming is actually quite a bit harder than 2D graphics programming. I suspect this is why Notch went with a comparatively-simple voxel-based system with blocky graphics.
Take the following as an example: Say you have a relatively simple shape, a rectangle that's 10x10x40, it would have the following points:
(0, 0, 0)
(0, 10, 0)
(10, 0, 0)
(10, 10, 0)
(0, 0, 40)
(0, 10, 40)
(10, 0, 40)
(10, 10, 40)
Now, simultaneously rotate it positively around the X axis, the Y axis and the Z axis at the same rate with the center being at (5, 5, 10). Map each of the points at intervals of 1 degree for the duration of a full rotation of each.
At the very least, the difference is greater than you suggest. The linear algebra gets more difficult (more tedious).
You may not be, but slagar10 certainly was, when he posted this (emphasis mine):
... which is when this particular subthread of the discussion was born.
You do, if you qualify the statement with, in essence: "I know this because I am a chef, myself."
You evidently have NO experience in programming at all. There is absolutely NO reason to program at that level. All common graphics cards (and on-board graphics) can run OpenGL and DirectX. Those interfaces make it possible for the programmer to not have to worry about low level stuff like what you explained. It's all done with objects: rotateObject(degrees), translateObject(x, y, z), etc. Programming in 3D is incredibly easy these days, just as easy as 2D. It just takes more art and greater imagination.
But, in using Java, Notch crippled Minecraft. Minecraft is based on a static spacial grid where every grid space is occupied by an object type like dirt, stone or air. This is the main reason why we can't have rotating objects, torches and redstone taking up a whole block, and the reason the piston mod has to "fake it" when translating blocks: The block during translation is a "ghost" object image and does not exists in the game world (just like falling sand).
Yes, Minecraft is fun, but it will never grow past it's inherent limitations.
A lot of it can be abstracted away, yes, but someone had to write the code that abstracts it. That's 3D graphics programming. That also doesn't mean that the game developer is immune to such calculations. Complex movements through 3D space can still require them.
Also, pathfinding in a 3D environment becomes that much more complicated. Really, any instance where you have to deal with the world in a programmatic fashion jumps an order of complexity when going from 2D to 3D.
I do not mind walls of text, as they have some separation and are not confusingly written. I also agree with everything you said. If he proves me wrong, I will gladly say I was wrong, but not until then. There are many things I expect to never see that he had said yes to when it started, and the about section of minecraft.net where he says he wanted to make survival too hard over too easy.
I am not a chef, but this tastes like it was cooked in a sewer...
Why would you have to be a chef to say something tastes bad? That would be just stupid.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
That's not at all what I said.
IF you cite your being a fchef as well as a justification for stating that something tastes horrible ... then you had damned well better actually be a chef. Preferably, of a relevant and appropriate discipline (pastry chefs should not be citing their supposed "authority" when judging soup, for example).
And it happens all of the time.
Also, my apologies. I read that as "If you complain, you have to qualify the complaint" not "If you claim to be something, back it up in your complaint."
My statement still stands for those who use the defense "You do better."
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
In any case I'm pretty sure that there is room for Notch to improve his processes and performance. Because we want more and better minecraft sooner (except for people who want it to be stable), a lot of us would like for Notch to improve and be less 'lazy'. Unfortunately there's not really much we can do since once we've bought the game he already has our money and we don't really have any leverage. So people who want Notch to change feel powerless and proceed to make a lot of noise on the forums since it's the only thing they can do. Unfortunately even if we all decided to agree that Notch is a horrible person or something, it wouldn't change a thing about the situation.
So perhaps instead of arguing over whether or not Notch is lazy and whether he has a right to be as he is, we should consider what we want to change about the situation and whether we can realistically do anything to achieve it. Otherwise we're just wearing out our keyboards needlessly.
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I suspect the 'argument' "you do better" is a lazy way of saying "You don't know whether anyone could do better than Notch in the same circumstances, so prove it by trying it yourself." which of course is an unrealistic thing to ask plus the person asking that hasn't tried it theirself either to prove that it isn't possible. The problem with this whole situation is that no one knows whether anyone else really has any experience or authority in software development and project management on this level.
For instance, I haven't touched Java in about 5 years and even that was just a fairly small amount. I pretty much only use C# in my job. And the 3D stuff I've done was either VB6 with DirectX (and that was just a bit of messing around to make a screensaver) or C++ with OpenGL. Actually I did make a strange 'impossible geometry' 3D maze game a while back but it was just a toy and I only showed it to a few people. While the actual significant software projects I've worked in are about as far from games and indy as you can get. So there's not really much I can say definitively about the situation.
Fair enough ... but I DO still say "you do better" ... when someone claims some especial authority (like, in this thread, "I'm a coder too"). :smile.gif:
Only those who claim to have that exprience or authority, should really be the ones being targetted with "you do it better, then" comments. Which is really just a matter of telling them "put your money where your mouth is".
Me? I won't ever claim that coding MineCraft couldhave been done better, nor worse. I know I don't have a fecking clue - I'm not a coder. But I still bristle at people throwing out claims that "I'm a coder, so I know it could have been done better", leaving no room for uncertainty, admitting no margin of error. Well, if the person making that claim is so absolutely certain of their claim ... let's see them prove it, is how I feel.
And I really don't think it's a lazy way of saying anything. From what I've seen, it usually gets thrown out when someone really wants to fire back against someone naysaying Notch, but just doesn't have any valid arguments to use. They can't fire on the argument, so they fire on the arguer, and words are just a feeble attempt to convey the emotion. They're not meant in a literal fashion.
This is a good point, sadly, I don't think it'll ever come about. There are those that would or will try, but this is a terrible environment for them to try in.