This thread was automatically marked as Locked.
Proposal: Eliminate mob grinders
Poll: Should XP, and enchanting levels, be easy to obtain once you hav
Ended May 15, 2014
Poll: Should the base, default, rules for the game restrict what you c
Ended May 15, 2014
Poll: Given NPC trading for things in 1.3, is a free supply of resourc
Ended May 15, 2014
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumIn the process of writing this response, I realized the bottom line is this:
What is the "null" hypothesis? What is considered the "default" behavior?
Assume that environmental damage to mobs turned off spawning, so that mob grinders would stop working, normally. What would your reaction be to a mod that enabled them after the game tried to turn spawning off?
Assume that environmental damage to mobs had no effect on spawning, so that mobs that had the job of harming you were constantly being harmless and giving you freebies. What would your reaction be to a mob that disabled them instead of giving you freebies?
Consider both of those, and then ask which would make a better game.
The details:
Actually, the way animals breed is kinda broken.
Wolves needing bones to breed instead of wheat is a good step one.
Other animals should use seeds.
A limit on breeding rate does make some sense.
But there is a fundamental difference.
Animals spawning has been all but eliminated. Now they only make children when you do something to make children. A better argument would be if animals mated and had children naturally, and you had a system set up to automate it. That doesn't happen -- you have to spam the wheat (and trust me, I have). So the breeding does require your action, as does the killing.
If there is anything to change here, it's the free XP. Propose elimination of the XP from passive mobs when the passive mob kill rate goes too high, and you have my support.
Should killing lots of passive mobs stop their breeding? No.
But perhaps too much breeding will stop their breeding!. Right now I can breed 100+ chickens inside a 3x3 fence pen with only a single space in the middle. If there's a problem here, that's it.
No. I do see how your phrasing was bad, and re-wrote it; now it makes sense.
Mobs are spawned by the game in an area to be a threat to you. They are despawned if the game thinks they are no longer a threat to you. The despawning is broken -- it is perhaps too slow to despawn down in caves, and too fast on the surface.
Animals are spawned by your breeding actions. Too much breeding -- too cramped, etc, should stop them.
Mobs are spawned to attack you. Too much failed attacking should stop them.
Animal farming takes the effort of getting the wheat supply, and then getting your first pair of animals. Depending on where you are, that second bit might be anything but trivial.
If it was only people playing in isolation, sure. It isn't.
Single player worlds are in competition. Maybe you don't realize this.
I am in competition for YouTube views. There is no denying this; it is not possible for every viewer to watch every interesting video. I am in competition with all the other demands for eyeballs out there.
If the prevailing view is "Mob farms are cool, that person without one is a doob" (or whatever the current terms are), then it does affect me even if it never touches my server.
I do play on survival servers. I am probably the strictest about cheating / abuse of creative mode / etc on that server. It's mine.
And yet: I've installed a plug-in to recover boats as boats instead of sticks and planks. Boats are the only object where you do not recover the object instead of less than what you built it with. And SMP boats are horrible even as late as 21b (have not tried anything later yet).
So someone who is extreme in the "Do not use creative mode outside of your project over there", no cheat, play the game seriously, is willing to permit a boat recovery plugin because boats are broken. I have no problem working around game bugs, and I just ran into another serious one this week. (High entity counts for passive mobs render lower-end machines helpless, and it's "worst" when the mobs are right at the end of client visibility -- a difference between 30 fps and 2 fps. That is not an exaggeration, if anything, that is conservative. Tested in 21b where the "server" would die and leave the client running with no more entity updates.)
Perhaps you confuse "survival" with "competitive PvP"? I don't play on those. The few times I looked at other servers, I only looked at those with a "No griefing" rule, and then quickly got discouraged by the realization that it was in words only with no actual admin action. I have seriously looked for real, serious economic servers, only to be discouraged by -- as far as I can tell -- there are NONE. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/958717-major-questions-for-any-econony-server/ And it looks like Jeb is going to introduce a purely inflationary economic stupidity with "almost fixed" trading prices that will lets you spam huge amounts of cheap stuff at townies for anything that you want that they sell. And I want to stop that (still writing up the proposal).
Forgive me, but I'm going to suggest that you are not nearly as competent/skilled as you think.
Find some extreme hill at least 400 blocks from origin, and dig out the inside. Nothing visible from the surface, fully functional and hidden. Only cost is the iron for the pickaxes to dig it out (stone works, but is slower).
Or, just watch season 4b of Minecrack Ultra Hardcore. In a hardcore, no health recovery, competitive PvP, a fully functional skeleton mob grinder was built and running by the end of hour 1, and the bone supply from that was used to tame enough wolves to win the game.
No. Not Noobish.
Peaceful, Creative, and Survival are three different games.
For that matter, "Vechs" is a different game from those. "Mystcraft", "Equivalent Exchange", and "Thamucraft" (sp?) are all different games. Those are mods that make such a major change that it is essentially a different game.
Then why is it even necessary to have NEI/TMI?
That's a serious question. If you are on creative, you will break things you did not want to break. You can avoid that by playing on peaceful with "Free equipment" of NEI/TMI -- it is effectively creative in that you have unlimited resources, and enchanted diamonds work very fast, almost as fast as creative, without being so fast that you clobber multiple blocks by accident.
If someone wants to play creative, I actually recommend those instead; you can toggle creative to fly and fall, and turn it off to break blocks at a controllable rate.
Play it how they want? Then why is there not a "Noclip" or "teleport" built in?
No, the default minecraft is NOT "play it how they want" -- it's "Here's a decent sized set of choices. Decent, but still incomplete."
Consider this: If the default behavior was "Disable spawning if the area is controlled", and someone had a mod to keep the spawning going, would you consider that mod a cheat? Would you say "Let them install whatever mod they want"?
As I said earlier: I'm in competition for YouTube views. A system where "unlimited spawning into the grinders" was considered a mod instead of the norm would look very different.
So why do mobs spawn? To attack you.
If they cannot attack, why spawn?
Underground. Yes they are.
Sorry, all wrong.
1. Not a significant amount of lag. The computation needed would be looking up spawn location in a hash table and altering a value, with a trap on carry to a "disable" routine.
2. If you are killing monsters that have not taken serious environmental damage, then it does not trigger. This is for monsters that are KO'd or nearly so by the environment.
3. The "off" section of cave would be very, very small. The rest of the cave would still spawn. And ... what's wrong with saying that a natural death trap for monsters should not trap the monsters, they should show up where you are, where they can get you?
You must love the new Ender Chest then, right?
I say: Give me some sense of weight/volume/etc. 27 fixed slots is as much sense as saying "26 letters, so 26 items is all you can carry in this Rogue-like game", and really liked Nethack's true weight system.
Yea, I don't like the idea that 64 cubic meters of dirt is as easy/hard to carry as a single blank sign. It only makes sense as an arbitrary game rule.
Some people say "Petition for a change in game rules".
Vechs says "Have a battle sign".
Not a good farm. 50 levels in 60 minutes is a good farm.
Etho's Silverfish is probably better -- just about 3 minutes to collect them all, and they spawn/store while you're doing other stuff without lagging you in the process.
I give Etho major thumbs up for making it, for the design, for working out the bugs in the redstone to trap the fish. It's stuff that I can learn from and use in my redstone devices.
I give him thumbs up for the trouble he went through experimenting with the snowmen, to make them work right, and the whole trouble of cleaning up all the silverfish damage, all the lava, and effectively rebuilding the whole shell in wood to prevent silverfish damage.
Was it a lot of work? Yes.
Was it enjoyable to watch? Yes, once.
Is it enjoyable, or interesting, watching him toss level 50 enchant after level 50 enchant after level 50 enchant after level 50 enchant? No, and the enchanting system is broken. Even Mojang admits it and is changing it.
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
[quote=Badgerz]You have to keep in mind that people are stupid.
[quote=Catelite]Just because you don't understand how something works, doesn't make it broken or pointless. >_<
Thanks neo <3 u
Still no support for this suggestion from me.
Should we ban auto wheat, cactus, sugarcane, and animal farms? They all produce output without as much input as you would normally require.
No, we shouldn't, because that's ridiculous.
However, I'm not quite there yet. First, the argument on the purpose of hostile mobs: I think it's a mistake to become to attached to a single purpose for any block, tool, mob or other game feature. One of the things I find so elegant about Minecraft is the way a single item can fill multiple roles. Yes, the main and original purpose of hostile mobs might be to create danger and challenge for the player, but that doesn't mean that neutralizing that danger in one context defeats the purpose. It simply represents using them in another way.
It also doesn't eliminate the danger completely to use a mob grinder. I'm always aware of the peril lurking behind the glass of these mechanisms, and that makes it interesting in its own right. I once had a skeleton grinder, built around a dungeon spawner, where I just baited the skeletons into shooting each other for my amusement, as well as collecting the arrows. (This was during that brief period when chickens didn't respawn and breeding hadn't been implemented, so feathers were scarce.) Then by sheer chance a creeper spawned inside the skeleton chamber, caught a stray arrow, and the resulting explosion took out the spawner. So no guarantees, and I was just lucky it didn't release too many skeletons.
As for the null hypothesis argument, you're right that had the game been built differently from the start, to disable mob spawning where environmental damage was too high, we'd likely view a mod that preserved mob spawning as somehow illegitimate. But it WASN'T built that way. Some of the opposition your proposal is facing is just due to the endowment effect (people feel entitled to the benefits they have now and weight losses more heavily than equal gains), but there's another factor here, too: the game has already been built, and the resources (i.e. programmer hours) to change anything are scarce. Would we prefer the game to have been built from scratch to disable mob spawning in the circumstances you describe? Probably. But now that it's the way it is and we're used to it and found ways to built mob grinders, do we want Mojang to spend resources changing it (even to a way we might have preferred at first) when there are so many other things we want to see done? Probably not.
NO DIAMONDS FOR YOU!Exactly
Seriously thought, if you people don't like mob grinders, just don't build them, just because you don't like them does NOT mean that Mojang/Jeb will remove it, especially considering the fact that a LOT of other people DO like them, and that if you DON'T like them, you can simply NOT build them.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumABANDON THREAD!
this will make each mob use a lot more CPU power to function, making this unplayable on older computers.
also, Even JEB did not mind mob grinders and approved of them. most people have difficulty to find a mob grinder then successfully set up a grinder. also, many people do not have patience to keep grinding at the spawner to kill the mobs, it is not without effort that experience is gained. also, that is like saying that in war, using booby traps is a non legit way of fighting and that all fights must be done face to face.
even if this was implemented, people would find a way around it. Minecraft is about creativity, after all.
1. you can make a mob grinder if you want..but if you dont want one just dont make one.
2. your sugestion puts in to many veriables that can go wrong.
3. there is no point to "take it out" since its all optional..
4. players will eventualy find a way of breaking that "new mechanic" as well...
5. depending how long it will spawn for you can still build them and leach as much as you can then move on..
6. if it counts within a certain area then you can just move the mobs a far enough distance a way...
These things aren't going anywhere. Mob grinders have to be one of the nerdiest things Minecraft has going for it. And if Minecraft is one thing, Minecraft is a nerd game. The nerdiest one I know.
And I thought calculating EVs in Pokemon was nerdy.
Link Removed
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumCreepo103:
Yes, without grinders you still have an infinite world. Infinite monsters. But it's no longer "free".
Look at Etho getting multiple chests of ender perls, and enough levels to do 4 different high-level enchantments on diamond picks, only to get 4 "Efficiency 4" picks, in one episode.
Look at the whole "all these free blaze rods, and the biggest issue is just accidental damage to the blazes by the piston pushing system that funnels them to the 1x2x1 kill zone" setup.
Can I generate chests and chests of chicken eggs, and all the raw chicken I can cook? Sure. Took forever to find that first chicken.
It's not about "Should we ban animal farms?". Animal farming is a norm -- animals, plants, etc all produce faster than you harvest, by design. You can breed animals. Plants reproduce. That's not imbalancing.
Fire Hawk Delta:
Well, maybe the implementation needs tweaking. Exactly what did you think about my implementation was bad? Again, I'm saying that a hostile mob has one field to track if it came from a spawner or else which area of the map it came from, and I suggested a 16x16x16 mini chunk as a way to divide up the map.
Phoeniz750: "If you don't like them, just don't build them". So ... by that reasoning anything at all should be allowed by anyone, because everyone can do whatever they want?
It is a game called "Minecraft". It is not a game engine called "Arbitrary block world engine" (That actually is a real project, by the way; it does not have that name. I'm not sure what the actual name is, but one goal is that will support many game, a copy of minecraft being one of them.)
So what are the rules for a game called "Minecraft survival"? Not "Minecraft creative". Not "Minecraft anything goes". Should free supply of anything be included? Farms require some tending. Animals require both initial stock and feeding/breeding/hatching.
Should there be no changes? Don't be silly. Nothing but changes every release.
Soaked: "Minecraft is a sandbox game to which the whole point is to create whatever you want". Well, yes and no. That sounds more like creative mode. Survival is more about what you can handle in a hostile environment.
Mid Knight Dark: "Mob grinders are basically just farms". Well, plants and farm animals are, by nature, designed to produce more than you start with.
Let me ask this: Would you be OK with being able to tame wild creepers, feed them wheat, and watch them make babies? Do you think that tiny mini creepers running around loose is a good idea?
Farming hostile mobs is that.
Hostile mobs are supposed to be a challenge, a threat, a worry. A good farm turns them into nothing but "Experience packets carrying bones and arrows", or "Experience packets carrying food", as Vechs calls them. Or, currently, free infinite iron, gold, blaze rods, teleport perls, enchantments; with village trading, free infinite diamonds, etc.
===
The one concept that I see coming back over again, is the whole "I want to do X, so you should not be able to stop me from doing X". Well, Mojang changes the code. Every time they do, there is a change. They do stop people from doing things.
Boats: EATS roads used to be easy to make, and very effective. Now, they are a real pain in SMP. Boats used to be able to steer without any problem; now they are approximate at best.
Should you complain "Give me back boats that can take damage and not break"? Should you complain "Let me steer my boats"? Or are you someone who says "I don't use EATS, so I'm not concerned that they are now broken"?
Look over the last year or two. Do you complain that you can't get free auto-harvest of feathers now that zombies don't drop them in your mob farm? Do you complain that you can't get all the leather you need for your armor just by freely killing all the regenerating cows? Do you complain about "I can't build the landscape I want because you've changed the biome system"?
Change is the nature of the game.
Altering what you can and cannot do is the nature of progress/change.
What makes what I'm suggesting so much worse than what Mojang has already actually done?
And again: Nothing will stop you from building one of these mob grinders. It will just stop working after a while.
Or, as I suggested in the semi-intelligent creeper thread, the creepers will try to blow up your mob farm (and turn spawning back on) if they cannot get to you.
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
I cannot understand a thing in that messed up wall of text. tl;dr, please.