Hi guys, extremely large wall of text and me talking about stuff here.
So, I have been thinking about CTMs and stuff. And I've been thinking a lot. I've played UT3, worked on my map, and then started playing Ragecraft. Especially that last map got me thinking. CTM's started of as extremely hard survival maps. At that point, surviving used to be a real challenge. Health didn't regen and mobs were a lot more challenging because of that. MC has developed, and nowadays we got a lot more stuff going on. CTM's became more and more combat oriented, to the point of ragecraft.
So let's start by asking a question. What would you guys enjoy more? A full-survival map with objectives, or an adventure map where you can break spawners only and just have to run around and kill mobs? I've been really thinking about CTM's, and I personally think they should be more in the way of: "Here's some tools. Here's a challenge. Go beat it in any way you can.". And I never, ever see that back in any CTM map except for Vechs' or AMLP's map. All other maps I've played, were more of a here-are-mobs-go-kill-them type. Even the more survival oriented, I found that mobs used to be the main gameplay factor, not the environment. And still people love them. So I started to wonder, do you like blazing through waves of mobs, or do you like trying to reach an objective that is somewhere in an environment?
I'm realizing now that a lot of people don't like the survival-grinding aspect in maps. It's not that what makes it fun. Building a decent base is "ok", but the real key is in the environment. So I started thinking about a few concepts for new CTM's.
The first one removes survival completely. It sets keep inventory on true, leaves your foodbar full all day. All the stuff you need is in chests. doTileDrops and doMobLoot are both false. If you die you're losing some lvls, and killing mobs grant lvls through CMD-blocks. These lvls give you bonuses in some way.
The second one sets naturalRegeneration to false. Again, survival is removed, so your foodbar is always full. If you die, your inventory is cleared like normal. Around the map are certain "points of regen", but these are very rare (basically a regen-potion spawner). This would make every mob a challenge again, and would focus a lot on the here-are-tools-go-get-the-wool gameplay.
Again, I'm just thinking about all this stuff. I'm thinking, and considering a lot. And I'd like your guys feedback at this point.
Sorry for the story not having a main line. It probably doesn't make a lot of sense if you don't read carefully, but this is the only way I can tell it atm.
Hmm. Honestly, I actually like both extremes. The adventure one may seem a little too adventury though, and I like the food aspect of the gameplay a lot, really. But I enjoy both SH and Ragecraft, and my own map should be somewhere inbetween.
I really hate the food aspect. It makes sense and all that, but really. It's just annoying. The game basically forges you to take up 1 hotbar slot, not run too much, and at least make 1 type of foodfarm. I really think the old food was way better. And I haven't even played that much alfa/beta (maybe a few times)...
I saw it already this morning, but didn't react because I knew I could just copy the last feedback. It looks like the same image from a different side @Fangride, I believe I already saw a streama of your, but man, you really have an awesome and easy to understand voice. Could you please go and speak in our listening exams?
Okay. I understand you. I also oftenly felt impatient waiting for feedbacks or for people to react to my post. It's fine actually. Also @Fangride If you had a chance, would you narrate audio books for a living? I would buy ALL of them, just to hear you speak like that!
I totally would. Voice acting is so much fun, and book reading is so much fun!
Page get! I've come with the first screenshots of my new map! These are all from the White Wool area, "Celestial Spores" (It's not 100% done yet, still adding things, but I feel I've got to a good place through the area to show you guys!) Any feedback is appreciated! Even if you hate it, lemme know as I'm sure it'll help
I absolutely love the smaller block choices you've made in this area - the subtle differences helps keep the eye focused on the surroundings, but breaks things up enough to look really solid. My one big critique would be - consider making the mushrooms look "bulkier". You have stuff on them, but they're natural vanilla ones, and they look very flimsy - custom shrooms is kewl.
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Let me give a wall of text to counter your wall of text :P.
Yes, CTM's started out as a harder form of survival with an end term goal. Over time, they got more possibilities and more meanings, and same goes with survival. The game advanced, new stuff got added, and same goes with CTM's.
Originally, there was no more than just linear branching and open world CTM's. Now you'll see hub, monster hunter (which I totally agree with Krose on), RPG-ish (like ED3 for example) and many more genres of CTM's. It isn't that CTM's got more combat oriented, it's that the game took away the things that made CTM's be survival based and added more possibilities for combat.
First, hunger and stackable food. This made food be much more effective and mobs be less. Also inventory management got easier. This made the mapmaker be forced to make more mobs to kill/pose a threat to the player, and they didn't have to be so generous with food. Also you always had to make a renewable food source. Both in beta and every version after it without food you'd be extremely weak, because your health wouldn't come back three mobs could kill you pretty easily. I actually like the food change to a certain extent, though I do think it should be 2 HP = 1 hunger and not 1 HP = 1 hunger. The food is a gameplay aspect which limits the players from being able to continue going through an area without ever needing to retreat (of course food isn't the only reason players retreat, but it's a decently large reason for that). Also the food allows us to make more engaging area's that have better aspects. Area's like "All Hell breaks Loose" and "Eternal battle" would've been much different if there wasn't food or only beta food.
Secondly, potions and enchanting. This allows for stronger gear and more varied gear. Also it adds a large gameplay aspect to the game that has large amounts of customization. This is one of the main things that allowed for more combat aspects. These also made there be less survival, but also more in a certain manner. Less, because you could do things faster and more efficiently. More, because you'd need to gather xp/materials.
Thirdly, custom mobs. I don't think that I need to explain much about this topic.
Now as for the other stuff that need addressing.
Firstly, Ragecraft. Ragecraft isn't especially combat oriented, it has the balance that most maps have of aesthetics level = gameplay level. It's just that RC has large amounts of both of them (and I'm secretly suspecting that Heliceo is a game designer or something, because area's like that in 4-16 hours just doesn't make sense IMHO). Also it's definitely possible for CTM's to have more combat than RC. For example, if RC was monster hunter themed.
Secondly, survival isn't exactly what you think it is. It has many meanings, and they've changed since beta, it's just that SH and UT portray survival in very simple ways (and I don't understand why people say that no other maps portray it like they do, because there are lots of map that have survivals aspects. For example, Dreadsky Isles). Survival aspects are the necessary aspects that are needed to survive that are also present in vanilla.
Thirdly, sorry if I misunderstood anything you said. Also I think I may have went overboard with certain things
I really hate the food aspect. It makes sense and all that, but really. It's just annoying. The game basically forges you to take up 1 hotbar slot, not run too much, and at least make 1 type of foodfarm. I really think the old food was way better. And I haven't even played that much alfa/beta (maybe a few times)...
Wait, you're contradicting yourself some. You say you don't like that the current food system forces you to take up 1 hotbar slot and then go onto say you liked the old food system better. The old food system forced you to take up multiple slots. :V You were required to easily take up at least 3 slots with the old food system, not counting how much inventory space you needed to fill up with food.
To make a rebuttal to your comments of, "The game basically forces you to take up 1 hotbar slot, not run too much, and at least make 1 type of foodfarm.".
"The game basically forces you to take up 1 hotbar slot"
Then: Due to most foods not stacking you usually needed to carry multiple pieces of food on your hotbar, usually 2-3+ if you wanted to make sure you stayed alive. This isn't counting having to fill up your inventory with food or food components as well which could be a bunch of wheat or Red/Brown mushrooms and Bowls.
Now: Now with food stacking it's become much more simplified, allowing you to have a more efficient hotbar and inventory.
"not run too much"
Then: No Running.
Now: Unless you're in a situation where you don't have any food or have very little you can pretty much run around most of the time, I've very rarely had an issue with not being able to run around if I have food on me.
"at least make 1 type of foodfarm."
Then/Now: Unless you play like me and just farm using bonemeal vs making an actual farm then nothings really changed here. However I'm of the opinion that making a farm is very rarely ever needed. *Shrugs* But that's me.
Now. *Ahem* Are there things that can be done to improve the genre as a whole? Absolutely! It's just a matter of exploring different possibilities and finds out what fun! So if you feel it would be fun to do your proposed changes then go for it! That's what I did when experimenting with Arachnapocalyse and testing the waters with Monster hunter style gameplay and no natural spawn and I learned quite a bit from doing so.
I know that you and Heliceo lurk, but I really wish(ed) that you two would be more active. You're both very unique mapmakers with lots of potential for input upon multiple things that we discuss here.
So... With the food thingy. By "you need at least 1 farm" I don't mean that I think it's annoying for the player to make those. It's that we mapmakers are forCed to give the player food, otherwise they will just starve to death. We really need to give the player tons and tons of food, because they will eventually die. In older maps, you could give like little bits of food and have health be valuable. Nowadays, hunger drops as well if you don't take damage, so we can't limit that anymore. And if we do, we annoy players by not allowing them to run.
No natural spawns feels really lame, but I don't like the fact that zombies drop iron and stuff. It makes areas so much easier if you can have lava buckets....
Also, there's a new gamerule:
/gamerule randomTickSpeed [number]
I find this really amazing. If you set it to 0, randomized game ticks (vines, saplings, wheat growing, and other stuff, like leaves decaying, and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of atm) doesn't work, allowing you to fly around without everything growing all over the place
And yes, dreadsky isles does really have the survival aspect It looks like a very good map, but I only got to orange wool then corrupted my world, so will have to restart at a time.
BTW it's not really 1HP=1Hunger, since regeneration by food actually uses up your saturation first, usually allowing for 2HP=1hunger
Secondly, survival isn't exactly what you think it is. It has many meanings, and they've changed since beta, it's just that SH and UT portray survival in very simple ways, and I don't understand why people say that no other maps portray it like they do, because there are lots of map that have survivals aspects. For example, Dreadsky Isles.
I'm honestly wondering if you could explain a bit more what you mean by that, "DsI has survival aspects". That's a pretty loose statement, and while I don't disagree with it, I want some clarification.
Community BananaDildo Question: What do you think of traps in a CTM?
Personally, I like how they force you to stay on your feet and always be alert, but I know some of you may feel differently.
It really depends on the map type. As said above, there are many different CTM map types now. In ragecraft or so they feel pretty lame.
What I think traps should do is force the player to NOT be greedy EVER EVER EVER. Traps are basically meant to make sure the player doesn't open up every chest or runs in every hallway they see. That way, a player will have to either secure a chest completely before opening it, or die to the fact that they rushed it and just went for the chest without considering the danger around it. I totally agree with traps tearing the player to pieces.
And there's this other kind of joky traps that don't kill the player. I'm fine with these too.
What I'm not fine with is traps that aren't one of the two above. Trapping a hallway is fine, since you can consider a new vista as "loot". Trapping random stairways and stuff feels lame and isn't really necessary.
Hey, everyone! I'm looking for a few people to help me with something. I'm trying to spawn a CTM Guide community within the CTM community. I feel like CTM guides are something that should be more prominent for people who feel uncomfortable with CTM maps, or for people who simply wish to complete all of the goals in a bonus goal map. I have a CTM Guide "Hub" here: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2594498-ctm-guide-hub/
I really hope some of you guys check it out, and perhaps write a guide!
Thanks!
Tech
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey there, all. I stream CTMs as well as other indie games, Minecraft servers and probably that's it. I'm your supreme overlord too so I command you to CHECK ME OUT: www.twitch.tv/techniclepanther
Community BananaDildo Question: What do you think of traps in a CTM?
Personally, I like how they force you to stay on your feet and always be alert, but I know some of you may feel differently.
I like traps that give you a chance to escape, or those that significantly weaken you, but not kill you. Unless it's really obvious, like, "Look over here, there's a trap," obvious, I don't like instant killing ones. TNT is good, because you can hear it. Non-lethal pitfalls are nice. But Fall-Into-A-Hole-Into-The-Void traps aren't.
The ground continues to shake, move and crumble away. This is the last stretch. My last journey. Here is what I came for. I will seize this opportunity and reuniteback those last two elements.
-snip of awesomeness- The ground continues to shake, move and crumble away. This is the last stretch. My last journey. Here is what I came for. I will seize this opportunity and reuniteback those last two elements.
Wow, that's quite an impressive looking area you've got there! I'm a big fan of that building style.
Thanks and yeah, this style is how I build every structure now. It looks awesome if done right.
Indeed. Though sometimes too much detail can look wierd / bad. So it's an art to master really, since you have to learn to do it just right. I tried building some stuff a while ago, but sadly it didn't turn out too good. I'll see if I can get some screenshots.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2603138-wip-18-ctm-surv-srion-desolate-riches/
Comments/criticism are welcome.
I post lots of #Srion dev updates and other MC stuff on twitter. @RedWingHamstorm
Nice, I like endstone as a block.
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Curse PremiumSo, I have been thinking about CTMs and stuff. And I've been thinking a lot. I've played UT3, worked on my map, and then started playing Ragecraft. Especially that last map got me thinking. CTM's started of as extremely hard survival maps. At that point, surviving used to be a real challenge. Health didn't regen and mobs were a lot more challenging because of that. MC has developed, and nowadays we got a lot more stuff going on. CTM's became more and more combat oriented, to the point of ragecraft.
So let's start by asking a question. What would you guys enjoy more? A full-survival map with objectives, or an adventure map where you can break spawners only and just have to run around and kill mobs? I've been really thinking about CTM's, and I personally think they should be more in the way of: "Here's some tools. Here's a challenge. Go beat it in any way you can.". And I never, ever see that back in any CTM map except for Vechs' or AMLP's map. All other maps I've played, were more of a here-are-mobs-go-kill-them type. Even the more survival oriented, I found that mobs used to be the main gameplay factor, not the environment. And still people love them. So I started to wonder, do you like blazing through waves of mobs, or do you like trying to reach an objective that is somewhere in an environment?
I'm realizing now that a lot of people don't like the survival-grinding aspect in maps. It's not that what makes it fun. Building a decent base is "ok", but the real key is in the environment. So I started thinking about a few concepts for new CTM's.
The first one removes survival completely. It sets keep inventory on true, leaves your foodbar full all day. All the stuff you need is in chests. doTileDrops and doMobLoot are both false. If you die you're losing some lvls, and killing mobs grant lvls through CMD-blocks. These lvls give you bonuses in some way.
The second one sets naturalRegeneration to false. Again, survival is removed, so your foodbar is always full. If you die, your inventory is cleared like normal. Around the map are certain "points of regen", but these are very rare (basically a regen-potion spawner). This would make every mob a challenge again, and would focus a lot on the here-are-tools-go-get-the-wool gameplay.
Again, I'm just thinking about all this stuff. I'm thinking, and considering a lot. And I'd like your guys feedback at this point.
Sorry for the story not having a main line. It probably doesn't make a lot of sense if you don't read carefully, but this is the only way I can tell it atm.
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Curse PremiumI really hate the food aspect. It makes sense and all that, but really. It's just annoying. The game basically forges you to take up 1 hotbar slot, not run too much, and at least make 1 type of foodfarm. I really think the old food was way better. And I haven't even played that much alfa/beta (maybe a few times)...
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Retired StaffThank you, haha! Would I get paid? >.>
I totally would. Voice acting is so much fun, and book reading is so much fun!
I absolutely love the smaller block choices you've made in this area - the subtle differences helps keep the eye focused on the surroundings, but breaks things up enough to look really solid. My one big critique would be - consider making the mushrooms look "bulkier". You have stuff on them, but they're natural vanilla ones, and they look very flimsy - custom shrooms is kewl.
Yes, CTM's started out as a harder form of survival with an end term goal. Over time, they got more possibilities and more meanings, and same goes with survival. The game advanced, new stuff got added, and same goes with CTM's.
Originally, there was no more than just linear branching and open world CTM's. Now you'll see hub, monster hunter (which I totally agree with Krose on), RPG-ish (like ED3 for example) and many more genres of CTM's. It isn't that CTM's got more combat oriented, it's that the game took away the things that made CTM's be survival based and added more possibilities for combat.
First, hunger and stackable food. This made food be much more effective and mobs be less. Also inventory management got easier. This made the mapmaker be forced to make more mobs to kill/pose a threat to the player, and they didn't have to be so generous with food. Also you always had to make a renewable food source. Both in beta and every version after it without food you'd be extremely weak, because your health wouldn't come back three mobs could kill you pretty easily. I actually like the food change to a certain extent, though I do think it should be 2 HP = 1 hunger and not 1 HP = 1 hunger. The food is a gameplay aspect which limits the players from being able to continue going through an area without ever needing to retreat (of course food isn't the only reason players retreat, but it's a decently large reason for that). Also the food allows us to make more engaging area's that have better aspects. Area's like "All Hell breaks Loose" and "Eternal battle" would've been much different if there wasn't food or only beta food.
Secondly, potions and enchanting. This allows for stronger gear and more varied gear. Also it adds a large gameplay aspect to the game that has large amounts of customization. This is one of the main things that allowed for more combat aspects. These also made there be less survival, but also more in a certain manner. Less, because you could do things faster and more efficiently. More, because you'd need to gather xp/materials.
Thirdly, custom mobs. I don't think that I need to explain much about this topic.
Now as for the other stuff that need addressing.
Firstly, Ragecraft. Ragecraft isn't especially combat oriented, it has the balance that most maps have of aesthetics level = gameplay level. It's just that RC has large amounts of both of them (and I'm secretly suspecting that Heliceo is a game designer or something, because area's like that in 4-16 hours just doesn't make sense IMHO). Also it's definitely possible for CTM's to have more combat than RC. For example, if RC was monster hunter themed.
Secondly, survival isn't exactly what you think it is. It has many meanings, and they've changed since beta, it's just that SH and UT portray survival in very simple ways (and I don't understand why people say that no other maps portray it like they do, because there are lots of map that have survivals aspects. For example, Dreadsky Isles). Survival aspects are the necessary aspects that are needed to survive that are also present in vanilla.
Thirdly, sorry if I misunderstood anything you said. Also I think I may have went overboard with certain things
Wait, you're contradicting yourself some. You say you don't like that the current food system forces you to take up 1 hotbar slot and then go onto say you liked the old food system better. The old food system forced you to take up multiple slots. :V You were required to easily take up at least 3 slots with the old food system, not counting how much inventory space you needed to fill up with food.
To make a rebuttal to your comments of, "The game basically forces you to take up 1 hotbar slot, not run too much, and at least make 1 type of foodfarm.".
"The game basically forces you to take up 1 hotbar slot"
Then: Due to most foods not stacking you usually needed to carry multiple pieces of food on your hotbar, usually 2-3+ if you wanted to make sure you stayed alive. This isn't counting having to fill up your inventory with food or food components as well which could be a bunch of wheat or Red/Brown mushrooms and Bowls.
Now: Now with food stacking it's become much more simplified, allowing you to have a more efficient hotbar and inventory.
"not run too much"
Then: No Running.
Now: Unless you're in a situation where you don't have any food or have very little you can pretty much run around most of the time, I've very rarely had an issue with not being able to run around if I have food on me.
"at least make 1 type of foodfarm."
Then/Now: Unless you play like me and just farm using bonemeal vs making an actual farm then nothings really changed here. However I'm of the opinion that making a farm is very rarely ever needed. *Shrugs* But that's me.
Now. *Ahem* Are there things that can be done to improve the genre as a whole? Absolutely! It's just a matter of exploring different possibilities and finds out what fun! So if you feel it would be fun to do your proposed changes then go for it! That's what I did when experimenting with Arachnapocalyse and testing the waters with Monster hunter style gameplay and no natural spawn and I learned quite a bit from doing so.
Special thanks to Axl Rosie for the sig.
My life has been fulfilled. Rock has become a 500% more active member of this thread. Now if only I could convince Codemaster to join.....
I lurk a lot. :3
Special thanks to Axl Rosie for the sig.
I know that you and Heliceo lurk, but I really wish(ed) that you two would be more active. You're both very unique mapmakers with lots of potential for input upon multiple things that we discuss here.
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Curse PremiumSo... With the food thingy. By "you need at least 1 farm" I don't mean that I think it's annoying for the player to make those. It's that we mapmakers are forCed to give the player food, otherwise they will just starve to death. We really need to give the player tons and tons of food, because they will eventually die. In older maps, you could give like little bits of food and have health be valuable. Nowadays, hunger drops as well if you don't take damage, so we can't limit that anymore. And if we do, we annoy players by not allowing them to run.
No natural spawns feels really lame, but I don't like the fact that zombies drop iron and stuff. It makes areas so much easier if you can have lava buckets....
Also, there's a new gamerule:
I find this really amazing. If you set it to 0, randomized game ticks (vines, saplings, wheat growing, and other stuff, like leaves decaying, and a bunch of other stuff I can't think of atm) doesn't work, allowing you to fly around without everything growing all over the place
And yes, dreadsky isles does really have the survival aspect
BTW it's not really 1HP=1Hunger, since regeneration by food actually uses up your saturation first, usually allowing for 2HP=1hunger
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BananaDildoQuestion: What do you think of traps in a CTM?Personally, I like how they force you to stay on your feet and always be alert, but I know some of you may feel differently.
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Curse PremiumIt really depends on the map type. As said above, there are many different CTM map types now. In ragecraft or so they feel pretty lame.
What I think traps should do is force the player to NOT be greedy EVER EVER EVER. Traps are basically meant to make sure the player doesn't open up every chest or runs in every hallway they see. That way, a player will have to either secure a chest completely before opening it, or die to the fact that they rushed it and just went for the chest without considering the danger around it. I totally agree with traps tearing the player to pieces.
And there's this other kind of joky traps that don't kill the player. I'm fine with these too.
What I'm not fine with is traps that aren't one of the two above. Trapping a hallway is fine, since you can consider a new vista as "loot". Trapping random stairways and stuff feels lame and isn't really necessary.
PAGE GET
I really hope some of you guys check it out, and perhaps write a guide!
Thanks!
Tech
Hey there, all. I stream CTMs as well as other indie games, Minecraft servers and probably that's it. I'm your supreme overlord too so I command you to CHECK ME OUT: www.twitch.tv/techniclepanther
I like traps that give you a chance to escape, or those that significantly weaken you, but not kill you. Unless it's really obvious, like, "Look over here, there's a trap," obvious, I don't like instant killing ones. TNT is good, because you can hear it. Non-lethal pitfalls are nice. But Fall-Into-A-Hole-Into-The-Void traps aren't.
This is the last stretch. My last journey. Here is what I came for.
I will seize this opportunity and reuniteback those last two elements.
Wow, that's quite an impressive looking area you've got there! I'm a big fan of that building style.
Indeed. Though sometimes too much detail can look wierd / bad. So it's an art to master really, since you have to learn to do it just right. I tried building some stuff a while ago, but sadly it didn't turn out too good. I'll see if I can get some screenshots.