On a related note, here's Jonathan Blow, creator of Braid, talking about what makes a good adventure/puzzle game (or map, one might say) during an interview about his new adventure puzzle game: GamesRadar: You’ve said that The Witness is your attempt to modernize the adventure game, which hasn’t been evolved as well as other genres. What’s wrong and can you fix it?
Jonathan Blow: First, in a typical graphic adventure, you just start clicking around to see what you can interact with and that tends to persist through the whole game. Hunt the pixel. Second, the puzzles tend to be really arbitrary, like “Why is there a sliding tile puzzle on this safe?” or “I have to coerce the cat into coming out so I can reach into the cat box without getting bitten, so I have to get some milk?” Things like that, where you have to read the designer’s mind because they really don’t make sense.
So I started to adopt design language from other genres. If you play a platformer, for example, and there are levers you can pull, the first lever looks the same as every other lever that behaves that way. I know when I see that, I can pull it back. Maybe when I go in the jungle world, it’s got some vines on it, but there’s that concept of visual design communicating affordances – what you can do with the object.
GamesRadar: How does this translate to your game?
JB: At the very beginning of The Witness, you’re stuck in this small area and you don’t know what you can interact with, but the game shows you, “Here’s what the buttons look like. Here’s what the levers look like. Here are these puzzle panels.” And then once you’re outside, that’s basically the [system of] interactivity - there isn’t a weird machine that works in a way you haven’t seen. There are new elements that come in – that system can combine with another system – but it’s built on something you already understand. It can be nonlinear and crazy and interesting because that structure is clear. Even if it’s not verbal sense, it’s intuitive sense, and that’s something I think a lot of adventure games lack.
Very relevant to about 50% of the maps on this forum.
You might want to add a section about visual design and giving cues to the player.
These things are subtle and the player usually doesn't even realize that they are noticing them. Basically, manipulate the environment to guide and steer the player. One of my favorites is visual lighting cues, lighting up an area to draw the players attention to it. I will frequently use indirect glowstone to illuminate a chest in a dungeon. You can put the glowstone block into the wall of the area, and the farther back you move it, the dimmer the light gets outside, which is one simple method to pick how much ambient light you want.
Some examples:
This underground mine area uses indirect ambient lighting -- notice how in this picture you can't actually see any light sources -- the glowstone is hidden away in nooks and alcoves.
I like to think that this creates an even creepier environment than if this area was completely in the dark. But it also is useful for people making LP's of your maps, because their viewers can see what is going on, and at the same time it is still dark enough to spawn monsters and present a challenge to the player:
Here is a desert area from one of my maps-- I used water, which is rare and out-of-place in the desert, to attract the players attention. Compared to the tans and yellows, that small water fall stands out like a brilliant blue pillar:
This example is from Black Desert -- it's not very subtle, but it gets the job done. Nothing says "HEY! Come loot me!" like a chest sitting in a pool of sunlight. Of course, it's quite ominous too, because the player knows that the darkness nearby will hold many dangers:
Here is Swamp of Despair from Super Hostile #07: Legendary. This is a cut-away view. I was intentionally being dickish in my design of this area, but if I remade the area to be more... friendly and "mainstream" then this is what I would do:
You will notice that the wool chest has it's own container room, and I have been using these rooms consistently on my new maps, so that when the player sees that very unique cube made of brick, glass, and glowstone, they know that it is a wool chest, and to take appropriate actions (such as NOT letting creepers blow it up.)
i'd play them too, but i'm a builder, not a survivalist. Can you think of any tips for adventure maps with a dungeon system? like what items to give the player and how to make shops?
On a related note, here's Jonathan Blow, creator of Braid, talking about what makes a good adventure/puzzle game (or map, one might say) during an interview about his new adventure puzzle game: GamesRadar: You’ve said that The Witness is your attempt to modernize the adventure game, which hasn’t been evolved as well as other genres. What’s wrong and can you fix it?
Jonathan Blow: First, in a typical graphic adventure, you just start clicking around to see what you can interact with and that tends to persist through the whole game. Hunt the pixel. Second, the puzzles tend to be really arbitrary, like “Why is there a sliding tile puzzle on this safe?” or “I have to coerce the cat into coming out so I can reach into the cat box without getting bitten, so I have to get some milk?” Things like that, where you have to read the designer’s mind because they really don’t make sense.
So I started to adopt design language from other genres. If you play a platformer, for example, and there are levers you can pull, the first lever looks the same as every other lever that behaves that way. I know when I see that, I can pull it back. Maybe when I go in the jungle world, it’s got some vines on it, but there’s that concept of visual design communicating affordances – what you can do with the object.
GamesRadar: How does this translate to your game?
JB: At the very beginning of The Witness, you’re stuck in this small area and you don’t know what you can interact with, but the game shows you, “Here’s what the buttons look like. Here’s what the levers look like. Here are these puzzle panels.” And then once you’re outside, that’s basically the [system of] interactivity - there isn’t a weird machine that works in a way you haven’t seen. There are new elements that come in – that system can combine with another system – but it’s built on something you already understand. It can be nonlinear and crazy and interesting because that structure is clear. Even if it’s not verbal sense, it’s intuitive sense, and that’s something I think a lot of adventure games lack.
Very relevant to about 50% of the maps on this forum.
I was reading a Game Informer article (I'll need to look it up when I get home, but I think it was a recent issue) that talked about designing the first area or level when you are nearing development completion. I know that this isn't really necessary or even applicable for Vech's map series, but for adventure maps with different areas (stages, levels, dungeons, etc.) I'm certain that this is important.
I've experienced the reason for doing this firsthand, and I'll tell you why I think it is a good idea to design the first level after you have completed the majority of the other ones. In my Adventurecraft map, I had started on developing the first area before anything else. It seemed like the logical place to start, and after a few weeks of work I released the first version of the map. After receiving mixed feedback (mostly positive, but all had minor complaints about some of the smaller details and game mechanics) I wasn't too thrilled about continuing my work on the map.
HOWEVER, I kept working on the map and decided to design a different area entirely for a while. After the new area was completed, I returned to working on the starting area and I realized something. I knew so much more about map creation and level design and polish than I did before! I looked at the previous rendition of my first dungeon and basically scrapped and/or overhauled the entire first area, and was able to think more about the details I was adding. A few weeks later and I'm about ready to release the next version of my map that basically blows the older revision out of the water, and I'm certain that learning more about level design first hand has helped with the quality of my map. It has gone from a map that is heavily story driven with light dungeon mechanics to both a heavily story driven AND has deeper, cooler, and overall more interesting mechanics.
The first level of any map is what makes the player want to come back for more. First impressions are vital, and can ultimately lead to the success or total failure of your map.
Curious to see the difference in quality of the map? I'll post a before video and an after video to show you how drastic the changes were and how much cooler it made some of the map features.
You might want to add a section about visual design and giving cues to the player.
These things are subtle and the player usually doesn't even realize that they are noticing them. Basically, manipulate the environment to guide and steer the player. One of my favorites is visual lighting cues, lighting up an area to draw the players attention to it. I will frequently use indirect glowstone to illuminate a chest in a dungeon. You can put the glowstone block into the wall of the area, and the farther back you move it, the dimmer the light gets outside, which is one simple method to pick how much ambient light you want.
Some examples:
This underground mine area uses indirect ambient lighting -- notice how in this picture you can't actually see any light sources -- the glowstone is hidden away in nooks and alcoves.
I like to think that this creates an even creepier environment than if this area was completely in the dark. But it also is useful for people making LP's of your maps, because their viewers can see what is going on, and at the same time it is still dark enough to spawn monsters and present a challenge to the player:
Here is a desert area from one of my maps-- I used water, which is rare and out-of-place in the desert, to attract the players attention. Compared to the tans and yellows, that small water fall stands out like a brilliant blue pillar:
This example is from Black Desert -- it's not very subtle, but it gets the job done. Nothing says "HEY! Come loot me!" like a chest sitting in a pool of sunlight. Of course, it's quite ominous too, because the player knows that the darkness nearby will hold many dangers:
Here is Swamp of Despair from Super Hostile #07: Legendary. This is a cut-away view. I was intentionally being dickish in my design of this area, but if I remade the area to be more... friendly and "mainstream" then this is what I would do:
You will notice that the wool chest has it's own container room, and I have been using these rooms consistently on my new maps, so that when the player sees that very unique cube made of brick, glass, and glowstone, they know that it is a wool chest, and to take appropriate actions (such as NOT letting creepers blow it up.)
Ah, Vech's, you know you have done a good job when players don't even know they are being lead into things. I've been very impressed with your work and I've never had such an enjoyable experience with vanilla minecraft when I play your map series.
I'm newer to map development, but I must say that your advice here is excellent. Leading players through areas by making "landmarks" is an excellent idea. I hadn't realized how much things like that shaped my experience with playing your map series. I felt confident that I was making my own decisions and choosing my own path. This mattered to me. I'm going to be taking your advice to heart, and I think that what you listed should be included in the topic post. If more people had the eye for detail like you the maps section would be a better place.
I rage slightly when I see this at the beginning of posts. People should be apologizing for making short posts...
On the topic of first impressions, it sort of reinforces the idea that the thread for your map is half the battle, because next to the map title, it's the player's first impression of your map. He hasn't had a chance to even download it yet, but he's going to be making assumptions already. The other thing I would say is that if there's a part of your map that's visually stunning, put it right at the beginning. It'll set the tone of your map to 'wow' right off the bat, which is definitely a good thing.
I had my brother test my map and he got all my stuff and spawned on the place were i loged out. the doors(iron) that i used were open and they need to be open what do i need to do?
You seem a bit out of breath. Slow down a bit, and could you please repeat that? :smile.gif:
The save file you upload includes data of your inventory, you must either remove your inventory (delete everything) and re-upload the new one or play it on a multiplayer server.
Oh wow. You guys have been kicking ass while I was gone xD
Thanks for keeping the post alive xD
Sorry I've been gone!
Tomorrow I will update the op with the provided info (thanks all!)
I'd do it now, but I'm on my iPod xD
And yes, this is a bump as well.
Also, I'll look into submitting some kind of request to getting this post sticky-d. If you feel that this should be sticky-d, post below!
so tgdrake, can you make the best map you possibly can by following this guide? i'd like to see you actually do this yourself!
If you must know, I have actually made about seven different maps, all worked on for about 1 month. I never released any of them because I felt that they were un-original and lacked some compelling new feature.
I'm working on three more as of now. These have been put slightly off schedule to my being accepting into the VoxelBox, which has sucked up more of my hardly-existent free time.
It's something I've learned as a film-maker: not everything should be released, no matter how much work you put into it. Sometimes you have to be harsh with yourself and understand that what you made is nothing special.
okay, i understand as i've tried 3 times to make an adventure map and i wasn't happy any of the times. But i'd honestly like to see you, the make of this epic guide make the best map in existence, even if vechs wants to help.
You might want to add a section about visual design and giving cues to the player.
These things are subtle and the player usually doesn't even realize that they are noticing them. Basically, manipulate the environment to guide and steer the player. One of my favorites is visual lighting cues, lighting up an area to draw the players attention to it. I will frequently use indirect glowstone to illuminate a chest in a dungeon. You can put the glowstone block into the wall of the area, and the farther back you move it, the dimmer the light gets outside, which is one simple method to pick how much ambient light you want.
Some examples:
This underground mine area uses indirect ambient lighting -- notice how in this picture you can't actually see any light sources -- the glowstone is hidden away in nooks and alcoves.
I like to think that this creates an even creepier environment than if this area was completely in the dark. But it also is useful for people making LP's of your maps, because their viewers can see what is going on, and at the same time it is still dark enough to spawn monsters and present a challenge to the player:
Here is a desert area from one of my maps-- I used water, which is rare and out-of-place in the desert, to attract the players attention. Compared to the tans and yellows, that small water fall stands out like a brilliant blue pillar:
This example is from Black Desert -- it's not very subtle, but it gets the job done. Nothing says "HEY! Come loot me!" like a chest sitting in a pool of sunlight. Of course, it's quite ominous too, because the player knows that the darkness nearby will hold many dangers:
Here is Swamp of Despair from Super Hostile #07: Legendary. This is a cut-away view. I was intentionally being dickish in my design of this area, but if I remade the area to be more... friendly and "mainstream" then this is what I would do:
You will notice that the wool chest has it's own container room, and I have been using these rooms consistently on my new maps, so that when the player sees that very unique cube made of brick, glass, and glowstone, they know that it is a wool chest, and to take appropriate actions (such as NOT letting creepers blow it up.)
Pre-Indev, Son.
GamesRadar: You’ve said that The Witness is your attempt to modernize the adventure game, which hasn’t been evolved as well as other genres. What’s wrong and can you fix it?
Jonathan Blow: First, in a typical graphic adventure, you just start clicking around to see what you can interact with and that tends to persist through the whole game. Hunt the pixel. Second, the puzzles tend to be really arbitrary, like “Why is there a sliding tile puzzle on this safe?” or “I have to coerce the cat into coming out so I can reach into the cat box without getting bitten, so I have to get some milk?” Things like that, where you have to read the designer’s mind because they really don’t make sense.
So I started to adopt design language from other genres. If you play a platformer, for example, and there are levers you can pull, the first lever looks the same as every other lever that behaves that way. I know when I see that, I can pull it back. Maybe when I go in the jungle world, it’s got some vines on it, but there’s that concept of visual design communicating affordances – what you can do with the object.
GamesRadar: How does this translate to your game?
JB: At the very beginning of The Witness, you’re stuck in this small area and you don’t know what you can interact with, but the game shows you, “Here’s what the buttons look like. Here’s what the levers look like. Here are these puzzle panels.” And then once you’re outside, that’s basically the [system of] interactivity - there isn’t a weird machine that works in a way you haven’t seen. There are new elements that come in – that system can combine with another system – but it’s built on something you already understand. It can be nonlinear and crazy and interesting because that structure is clear. Even if it’s not verbal sense, it’s intuitive sense, and that’s something I think a lot of adventure games lack.
Very relevant to about 50% of the maps on this forum.
Tgdrake10's guide on how to make maps, from concept to release.
You might want to add a section about visual design and giving cues to the player.
These things are subtle and the player usually doesn't even realize that they are noticing them. Basically, manipulate the environment to guide and steer the player. One of my favorites is visual lighting cues, lighting up an area to draw the players attention to it. I will frequently use indirect glowstone to illuminate a chest in a dungeon. You can put the glowstone block into the wall of the area, and the farther back you move it, the dimmer the light gets outside, which is one simple method to pick how much ambient light you want.
Some examples:
This underground mine area uses indirect ambient lighting -- notice how in this picture you can't actually see any light sources -- the glowstone is hidden away in nooks and alcoves.
I like to think that this creates an even creepier environment than if this area was completely in the dark. But it also is useful for people making LP's of your maps, because their viewers can see what is going on, and at the same time it is still dark enough to spawn monsters and present a challenge to the player:
Here is a desert area from one of my maps-- I used water, which is rare and out-of-place in the desert, to attract the players attention. Compared to the tans and yellows, that small water fall stands out like a brilliant blue pillar:
This example is from Black Desert -- it's not very subtle, but it gets the job done. Nothing says "HEY! Come loot me!" like a chest sitting in a pool of sunlight. Of course, it's quite ominous too, because the player knows that the darkness nearby will hold many dangers:
Here is Swamp of Despair from Super Hostile #07: Legendary. This is a cut-away view. I was intentionally being dickish in my design of this area, but if I remade the area to be more... friendly and "mainstream" then this is what I would do:
You will notice that the wool chest has it's own container room, and I have been using these rooms consistently on my new maps, so that when the player sees that very unique cube made of brick, glass, and glowstone, they know that it is a wool chest, and to take appropriate actions (such as NOT letting creepers blow it up.)
I agree completely, using visual cues rather than signs to tell people where to go is a huge leap forward for your map.
The only reason I don't play your maps is because I play Minecraft for the building/exploring side of it, not for the survival.
Tgdrake10's guide on how to make maps, from concept to release.
Thanks! :biggrin.gif:
I was reading a Game Informer article (I'll need to look it up when I get home, but I think it was a recent issue) that talked about designing the first area or level when you are nearing development completion. I know that this isn't really necessary or even applicable for Vech's map series, but for adventure maps with different areas (stages, levels, dungeons, etc.) I'm certain that this is important.
I've experienced the reason for doing this firsthand, and I'll tell you why I think it is a good idea to design the first level after you have completed the majority of the other ones. In my Adventurecraft map, I had started on developing the first area before anything else. It seemed like the logical place to start, and after a few weeks of work I released the first version of the map. After receiving mixed feedback (mostly positive, but all had minor complaints about some of the smaller details and game mechanics) I wasn't too thrilled about continuing my work on the map.
HOWEVER, I kept working on the map and decided to design a different area entirely for a while. After the new area was completed, I returned to working on the starting area and I realized something. I knew so much more about map creation and level design and polish than I did before! I looked at the previous rendition of my first dungeon and basically scrapped and/or overhauled the entire first area, and was able to think more about the details I was adding. A few weeks later and I'm about ready to release the next version of my map that basically blows the older revision out of the water, and I'm certain that learning more about level design first hand has helped with the quality of my map. It has gone from a map that is heavily story driven with light dungeon mechanics to both a heavily story driven AND has deeper, cooler, and overall more interesting mechanics.
The first level of any map is what makes the player want to come back for more. First impressions are vital, and can ultimately lead to the success or total failure of your map.
Curious to see the difference in quality of the map? I'll post a before video and an after video to show you how drastic the changes were and how much cooler it made some of the map features.
BEFORE
AFTER
Ah, Vech's, you know you have done a good job when players don't even know they are being lead into things. I've been very impressed with your work and I've never had such an enjoyable experience with vanilla minecraft when I play your map series.
I'm newer to map development, but I must say that your advice here is excellent. Leading players through areas by making "landmarks" is an excellent idea. I hadn't realized how much things like that shaped my experience with playing your map series. I felt confident that I was making my own decisions and choosing my own path. This mattered to me. I'm going to be taking your advice to heart, and I think that what you listed should be included in the topic post. If more people had the eye for detail like you the maps section would be a better place.
I rage slightly when I see this at the beginning of posts. People should be apologizing for making short posts...
On the topic of first impressions, it sort of reinforces the idea that the thread for your map is half the battle, because next to the map title, it's the player's first impression of your map. He hasn't had a chance to even download it yet, but he's going to be making assumptions already. The other thing I would say is that if there's a part of your map that's visually stunning, put it right at the beginning. It'll set the tone of your map to 'wow' right off the bat, which is definitely a good thing.
Tgdrake10's guide on how to make maps, from concept to release.
generation. Social experiment.
You seem a bit out of breath. Slow down a bit, and could you please repeat that? :smile.gif:
(I don't understand what you mean.)
Tgdrake10's guide on how to make maps, from concept to release.
Thanks for keeping the post alive xD
Sorry I've been gone!
Tomorrow I will update the op with the provided info (thanks all!)
I'd do it now, but I'm on my iPod xD
And yes, this is a bump as well.
Also, I'll look into submitting some kind of request to getting this post sticky-d. If you feel that this should be sticky-d, post below!
Pre-Indev, Son.
If you must know, I have actually made about seven different maps, all worked on for about 1 month. I never released any of them because I felt that they were un-original and lacked some compelling new feature.
I'm working on three more as of now. These have been put slightly off schedule to my being accepting into the VoxelBox, which has sucked up more of my hardly-existent free time.
It's something I've learned as a film-maker: not everything should be released, no matter how much work you put into it. Sometimes you have to be harsh with yourself and understand that what you made is nothing special.
Now it's your turn :sleep.gif:
Pre-Indev, Son.
Pre-Indev, Son.
Text Bomb greatly loved :biggrin.gif:
Added to OP, thanks Vechs!
Pre-Indev, Son.
and if you could, try to include a dungon or two somewhere in the plot. i already have some ideas for my map, which has several.