Yes, but at least Doc did it quietly. But yeah; Doc's post was all warm and fuzzy compared to the past, makes me wonder if jpaccer is Doc's favorite around here now?
That was warm and fuzzy? I'd hate to see mean and vindictive.
You think that's rude? I once saw Dr. Mackeroth gouge out a man's eyes with a plastic spork for talking on his phone during a movie.
We'll probably update the main post once we're out of the engine phase. We've got someone working on a tech tree, and that's going to affect a ton of the details. Right now, it's a neat fractal-like system which focusses on specialization.
Yea don't even remind me about it. I'm in sort of an artistic crisis right now and I don't work on anything including the tech tree (Yea it's nice you remember I'm making it BTW ... ).
But how will the new changes to minecraft since 1.3 affect Futurecraft? The original idea being inter-server travel. How does that change now that single player has an internal server? Are people going to be able to move out of their basically single player world into another multiplayer server world? Or are they only going to be able to start into a 'proper' server world and move from that?
Mojang never makes it simple for the modders.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you think something's impossible.
You haven't tried hard enough.
But how will the new changes to minecraft since 1.3 affect Futurecraft? The original idea being inter-server travel. How does that change now that single player has an internal server? Are people going to be able to move out of their basically single player world into another multiplayer server world? Or are they only going to be able to start into a 'proper' server world and move from that?
Mojang never makes it simple for the modders.
I prefer to see it as a challenge. A way to better myself.
Well, Fr0stbyte does, seeing as he's doing most of the heaving-lifting.
But how will the new changes to minecraft since 1.3 affect Futurecraft? The original idea being inter-server travel. How does that change now that single player has an internal server? Are people going to be able to move out of their basically single player world into another multiplayer server world? Or are they only going to be able to start into a 'proper' server world and move from that?
Mojang never makes it simple for the modders.
Actually, setting up a local server for single player was the original plan, so in that regard, Mojang saved us some work. Overall, not terribly pleased with their thin-client implementation, but the concept isn't bad, and Dinnerbone has been pretty diligent getting it back up to spec.
I completely see why you would want to set up an internal server for this mod. But what I, and a lot of people, can't figure is why Mojang did it. As you said their implementation leaves a lot to be desired. Have you had any opportunity to play 1.3.2, because it is really bad. The internal server lag is simply murder. And for some of us, me included, 1.3 is simply unplayable. Granted, I have briefly played the latest snapshot (I don't normally mess with those) and the server lag is greatly reduced. It is playable.
So that does mean that a person can start on singleplayer. Build his personal ship-fleet-droid army, hit someone else's server. And then finally fly home victorious, or limp home defeated?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you think something's impossible.
You haven't tried hard enough.
The idea behind singleplayer servers is twofold. The first purpose is to allow for drop-in gameplay, which Mojang had wanted to do for a long time. The second is the long-term goal of simplifying the build environment. Before, there had to be two different builds for plain singleplayer and server-client. Now there is one. By itself, that's not a bad idea, but their shortcoming was that multiplayer wasn't really ready, and so singleplayer suffered. It's better now, but it still has a way to go.
We were planning on polishing the network protocol regardless of what Mojang did, so that was never a big concern for us.
MMO gameplay will necessarily remain start to finish in persistent online servers.
But wouldn't that create a bit of an issue regarding fairness and "sportsmanship" so to speak? For example, say someone on single player uses creative mode to build a MASSIVE army and the strongest ship possible. They then fly into a small multiplayer server and ABSOLUTELY DOMINATE(the caps is completely necessary :P) they then pillage the servers rescources, and leave it smashed and everyone on the server has to start over. Do you get what i mean here, 'cause i'm ussualy not the best at explaining my thoughts...
There would need to be systems for discouraging high level players bullying low level ones, either with DMZ or rules of engagement, same as every other MMO in existence. I don't know how we are going to handle that yet, but there's plenty of options.
OK, i just had the terrible thought of joining a server and immediately getting MAC'ed in the face by some guy who built an effing super dreadnought thing in creative on his singleplayer world XD
I don't realy know about single player worlds being able to travel into multiplayer ones. Like ironclaw said, people would build up a large fleet unhindered and use it to bully people. And I have another question; Exactly how large of servers do you plan on being involved in this? Larger servers would be fun, but probably harder to do.
I have another concern; the amount of lag some of this stuff will cause. How will you be avoiding major lag, if you are even thinking about that at this point?
Don't think joining from single player is a good idea. Have one main server (login server) where everyone logs in, an chooses which galaxy (server) to start on, or just continue from where you where at. Because if you joined a server seperately, then made a fleet, then went and joined another server and did stuff on it, If you were to jump through from server 1 to server 2 it would crah because of the conflicts, no? So I reckon a main login server is a good idea.
Perhaps a ( C.ore U.niversal R.egistry E.nforcer ) would be the CURE for managing Allowed MMO Assets.
It would be an aspect of Unimatrix 0, er, the Core MMO Server which would in some way manage the consistency of and verify permission status of solar systems which connect to the Core Universe.
Since it looks like the infrastructure will be Core server dependent as well as dependent on / allowing externally hosted solar systems to connect with and be a part of the MMO universe; I think the following processes may be necessary:
- Click Below to Read the C.U.R.E. description:
1. Any system (Server Solar-system) that wishes to become a part of the shared MMO Universe will need to undergo a Registration process. The entire Solar system and it's assets will need to conform to the then present allowed Standards and pass an Inspection (A copy of the entire system 'start-state' being delivered to an approved designee of the C.U.R.E. for secure scanning.)
Once a system is deemed acceptable for entrance into the 'Universe' a process will occur by which the location of that system within the Universe is decided. This will need to be done with care as the position of that system will become permanent regardless of it's future FTL accessibility (See point # 3).
In the initial 'Scan' of a new system some sort of hash or means of resource and asset measurement and recording must be done. After that, at the very least, some sort of consistency check must be performed every time a system attempts to connect again. It doesn't really matter how long the check takes, the system will not be a part of the universe until it passes a complete return check.
A system can only return to the universe in the exact same state in which it left the universe, regardless of how much time has passed. This will be chalked up to the nature of the 'WARP' (See point # 3). This is the only consistently 'Fair' mechanism that can be easily used by the MMO and the CURE. If possible, a 'Margin-of-Error' can be built in to allow for connection-data-loss, but huge buffs of fleets or planetary resources should be instantly noticeable in the check.
2. Any system connecting to the MMO would have to be designated as and vetted as an MMO-Only system by the C.U.R.E. and could not continue on as a Single-Player system and then return as MMO again later. The system owner could of course play an SSP version of a copy of their solar-system if they want, they just wouldn't be able to connect that version of it to the shared MMO.
3. An in-game explanation of and way of dealing with the fact that external systems can drop off-line from time-to-time or permanently:
- A Warhammer 40k type explanation (Periodic WARP-Space (Hyperspace) chaotic (unpredictable) storms and disturbances which make FTL travel between certain systems temporarily impossible by any means, sometimes permanently).
This is a solid mechanic for retaining believable in-game consistency which not only seamlessly deals with the real-world problem of server unpredictability but also becomes a fundamental strategic aspect of the game itself. People will then need to always account for the fact that access to or transport of assets in or from any particular system (solar system) may be cut off or lost at any time due to the turbulent nature of FTL travel.
It may seem harsh but people would just have to accept that any of their resources in "off-line" systems are just unavailable until those systems are "on-line" again. The game as a whole goes on in "real-time" regardless as it must.
** However; an Emergency game-mechanism can be invoked when a system has been Offline for a determined amount of time where-by all C.U.R.E. recorded relocatable assets in that system belonging to a player can be 'sent' from that system to the (at that time) nearest online system at sub-light speeds.
It will take a long while in game time for these assets to return to the FTL grid, but at least it will be possible to regain these assets again after a server permanently goes offline. This will only be possible because of the C.U.R.E. and its record of all assets. - This can be an automatic server action after a certain length of time or a wholly player initiated one, this will need to be decided.
++ Players should always retain the ability to self-initiate an Emergency Fleet Recall while the system is still in FTL-Block status (Offline). Once initiated though it cannot be reversed. They will have to wait for their fleets to arrive at the nearest FTL accessible system at sub-light speeds (whatever those speeds are decided to be).
Hopefully these few and rough guidelines show how it can be possible for a multi-server MMO Universe/Galaxy of the sort described for this Mod / Total-Conversion may be possible.
[EDIT]
4. Solar/Server System Acceptance: [System Hosts/Lords]
Hosting an entire Solar/Server System in the main Futurecraft MMO Universe and having it be given a permanent set of coordinates should be considered a serious enough of a matter that only people who have shown themselves to be reliable and providing a reasonably stable server (performance, connection and up-time) should be considered as candidates for System Hosting.
Perhaps there could be a "Test-Universe" where applicants will be required to host a copy of their system map (Or a pre-made Test-Map, probably better so that people can't pre-scout a world before it goes live) for a period of time first to allow performance and up-time statistics to be gathered. Once approved the original system map as provided during Registration will be the one added to the Main universe, not the version used in the Test universe.
For the sake of long-term continuity; each 'System-Lord' (System Host) should consent to allowing their solar system to be hosted by someone else in the event that they will become unable to continue suitably hosting it themselves, or if they are found guilty of Gross-misconduct of some kind. They should be willing to provide the final (before Off-line) system-map to the C.U.R.E. Administrators for system reallocation. A Maximum Time-Offline for initiation of this process should be decided on. Ideally a System Host will initiate this as soon as they are aware that they will not be bringing the system back online themselves.
In the event that C.U.R.E. Administration is not able to obtain the final (before Off-Line) system map, an option should exist by which a roll-back, or partial roll-back of that system could occur so that the galaxy doesn't become permanently filled with Warp-storm FLT blocked systems everywhere.
- This would be accomplished by bringing the system back online with an available host using the initial system-map given to C.U.R.E. Administration during it's Registration process (See point # 1). This system will be considered/labeled in-game as having suffered a "Warp Distortion", causing a permanent hyperspace time distortion bubble around the system where-by anyone entering it from the present will be effectively going into that local spaces past, and returning to the present time when leaving that bubble (Or something like that, "Time distortion" is enough of an explanation really).
- The "partial" version of the roll-back option could be for a "Minor Warp Distortion" in which data from the initial Registration system map is merged with current C.U.R.E. Resource and Asset data (Including Ship and Fleet info). This might not perfectly restore the systems final state block for block but it would be far better than losing everything. * Having this option would also help take the teeth out of a system host "destroying" his own system for overall strategic game advantage (by destroying certain fleets etc) or pay-off or just Rage-Quit.
* If the full roll-back "Warp Distortion" is used then players should be given a fair warning in advance of the systems status change from just being in an FTL-Blocked Warp Storm (offline) to undergoing a full on Warp-Distortion (roll-back). This will allow them to initiate an Emergency Fleet Recall (See point # 3). Or this process could be automatically initiated by the Core server for all relocatable fleets recorded by C.U.R.E. as being in that system. - If the 'Minor Warp Distortion' is chosen instead then all resources can be left in that system as they will be available for FTL again as soon as the system is brought back online.
++ Players should still always retain the ability to self-initiate an Emergency Fleet Recall while the system is still in FTL-Block status (Offline). Once initiated though it cannot be reversed. They will have to wait for their fleets to arrive at the nearest FTL accessible system at sub-light speeds (whatever those speeds are decided to be).
Hopefully these methods, protocols and options will make it possible to maintain as stable a distributed MMO universe as is possible and maintain the greatest in-game continuity as is possible.
Hey, I've been following this mod for awhile, and like everyone else, I can't wait for this mod to come out. I think this one is extremely intersting, however, as ironclaw27a said how many times will the server crash per 2.7 seconds?
Well blurring the view as you fly a ship, like you said some time ago, is a start. I mean, sure it gives less things to render, allowing you computer to focus on other things, but that just helps the captain and those in the ship with him, what about those on the ground and in other ships? I know on my 8gb PC, flying the Lancaster bomber on Flan's WW2 pack takes up a few bits of bits. Then how does a lightspeed spaceship with hyperdrive work? Well guess you could limit lightspeed, or near-lightspeed to away from planets.
Also MineCrak's CURE idea is rather good, but, scanning worlds, might be tricky, because you could script it all down to locate large objects that resemble ships, however, players would try and hide items in chests, you could use your program to alert when large numbers of precious items are in chests, and wait for a human to approve them manually, but then players will simply hide them in more, sparsely-packed chests to avoid detection. I think that when a person wants to start playing FutureCraft, they can choose to start a new Solar-System, (Server) or join an existing Solar-System. If they want to start a new server, they will have to fill out a few boxes. Then the server generates a random world, (With a few things such as a spawn building, just a small one, starter kit. (IE: Wood, Stone, maybe a certificate-type crafting table, to prove they havn't hacked in, which they use just in the ever-essential Ship-crafting table recipe.) Then, they work their way towards their dream fleet.
Thank you for reading, hope you enjoyed my ideas. Again, Thank You.
There would need to be systems for discouraging high level players bullying low level ones, either with DMZ or rules of engagement, same as every other MMO in existence. I don't know how we are going to handle that yet, but there's plenty of options.
What about some form of anti-hahai'vegotaeastereggshipandyoupnyrascalhavealittlejetfighteri'mgonnaeatyouupmuhahahahaha.... Sort of system they simply forbids that kinda stuff. But if there is a opposable number of ships, then engagement can well... Engage.
[EDIT]=====
Actually, having 7 days from when you start your server, (Or more) of total protection from galactic forces, meaning no attacks until you are ready (Or not.) To tie in with the game's Futuristic theme, that will be a large "bubble" surrounding your solar system. Any players who join that solar system during that period, will be subject to that "bubble"'s effects.
That was warm and fuzzy? I'd hate to see mean and vindictive.
Yea don't even remind me about it. I'm in sort of an artistic crisis right now and I don't work on anything including the tech tree (Yea it's nice you remember I'm making it BTW ... ).
Double correction: Shiva's doing it.
But how will the new changes to minecraft since 1.3 affect Futurecraft? The original idea being inter-server travel. How does that change now that single player has an internal server? Are people going to be able to move out of their basically single player world into another multiplayer server world? Or are they only going to be able to start into a 'proper' server world and move from that?
Mojang never makes it simple for the modders.
You haven't tried hard enough.
I prefer to see it as a challenge. A way to better myself.
Well, Fr0stbyte does, seeing as he's doing most of the heaving-lifting.
I can control your thoughts...
So that does mean that a person can start on singleplayer. Build his personal ship-fleet-droid army, hit someone else's server. And then finally fly home victorious, or limp home defeated?
You haven't tried hard enough.
We were planning on polishing the network protocol regardless of what Mojang did, so that was never a big concern for us.
MMO gameplay will necessarily remain start to finish in persistent online servers.
It would be an aspect of Unimatrix 0, er, the Core MMO Server which would in some way manage the consistency of and verify permission status of solar systems which connect to the Core Universe.
Since it looks like the infrastructure will be Core server dependent as well as dependent on / allowing externally hosted solar systems to connect with and be a part of the MMO universe; I think the following processes may be necessary:
- Click Below to Read the C.U.R.E. description:
1. Any system (Server Solar-system) that wishes to become a part of the shared MMO Universe will need to undergo a Registration process. The entire Solar system and it's assets will need to conform to the then present allowed Standards and pass an Inspection (A copy of the entire system 'start-state' being delivered to an approved designee of the C.U.R.E. for secure scanning.)
Once a system is deemed acceptable for entrance into the 'Universe' a process will occur by which the location of that system within the Universe is decided. This will need to be done with care as the position of that system will become permanent regardless of it's future FTL accessibility (See point # 3).
In the initial 'Scan' of a new system some sort of hash or means of resource and asset measurement and recording must be done. After that, at the very least, some sort of consistency check must be performed every time a system attempts to connect again. It doesn't really matter how long the check takes, the system will not be a part of the universe until it passes a complete return check.
A system can only return to the universe in the exact same state in which it left the universe, regardless of how much time has passed. This will be chalked up to the nature of the 'WARP' (See point # 3). This is the only consistently 'Fair' mechanism that can be easily used by the MMO and the CURE. If possible, a 'Margin-of-Error' can be built in to allow for connection-data-loss, but huge buffs of fleets or planetary resources should be instantly noticeable in the check.
2. Any system connecting to the MMO would have to be designated as and vetted as an MMO-Only system by the C.U.R.E. and could not continue on as a Single-Player system and then return as MMO again later. The system owner could of course play an SSP version of a copy of their solar-system if they want, they just wouldn't be able to connect that version of it to the shared MMO.
3. An in-game explanation of and way of dealing with the fact that external systems can drop off-line from time-to-time or permanently:
- A Warhammer 40k type explanation (Periodic WARP-Space (Hyperspace) chaotic (unpredictable) storms and disturbances which make FTL travel between certain systems temporarily impossible by any means, sometimes permanently).
This is a solid mechanic for retaining believable in-game consistency which not only seamlessly deals with the real-world problem of server unpredictability but also becomes a fundamental strategic aspect of the game itself. People will then need to always account for the fact that access to or transport of assets in or from any particular system (solar system) may be cut off or lost at any time due to the turbulent nature of FTL travel.
It may seem harsh but people would just have to accept that any of their resources in "off-line" systems are just unavailable until those systems are "on-line" again. The game as a whole goes on in "real-time" regardless as it must.
** However; an Emergency game-mechanism can be invoked when a system has been Offline for a determined amount of time where-by all C.U.R.E. recorded relocatable assets in that system belonging to a player can be 'sent' from that system to the (at that time) nearest online system at sub-light speeds.
It will take a long while in game time for these assets to return to the FTL grid, but at least it will be possible to regain these assets again after a server permanently goes offline. This will only be possible because of the C.U.R.E. and its record of all assets. - This can be an automatic server action after a certain length of time or a wholly player initiated one, this will need to be decided.
++ Players should always retain the ability to self-initiate an Emergency Fleet Recall while the system is still in FTL-Block status (Offline). Once initiated though it cannot be reversed. They will have to wait for their fleets to arrive at the nearest FTL accessible system at sub-light speeds (whatever those speeds are decided to be).
Hopefully these few and rough guidelines show how it can be possible for a multi-server MMO Universe/Galaxy of the sort described for this Mod / Total-Conversion may be possible.
[EDIT]
4. Solar/Server System Acceptance: [System Hosts/Lords]
Hosting an entire Solar/Server System in the main Futurecraft MMO Universe and having it be given a permanent set of coordinates should be considered a serious enough of a matter that only people who have shown themselves to be reliable and providing a reasonably stable server (performance, connection and up-time) should be considered as candidates for System Hosting.
Perhaps there could be a "Test-Universe" where applicants will be required to host a copy of their system map (Or a pre-made Test-Map, probably better so that people can't pre-scout a world before it goes live) for a period of time first to allow performance and up-time statistics to be gathered. Once approved the original system map as provided during Registration will be the one added to the Main universe, not the version used in the Test universe.
For the sake of long-term continuity; each 'System-Lord' (System Host) should consent to allowing their solar system to be hosted by someone else in the event that they will become unable to continue suitably hosting it themselves, or if they are found guilty of Gross-misconduct of some kind. They should be willing to provide the final (before Off-line) system-map to the C.U.R.E. Administrators for system reallocation. A Maximum Time-Offline for initiation of this process should be decided on. Ideally a System Host will initiate this as soon as they are aware that they will not be bringing the system back online themselves.
In the event that C.U.R.E. Administration is not able to obtain the final (before Off-Line) system map, an option should exist by which a roll-back, or partial roll-back of that system could occur so that the galaxy doesn't become permanently filled with Warp-storm FLT blocked systems everywhere.
- This would be accomplished by bringing the system back online with an available host using the initial system-map given to C.U.R.E. Administration during it's Registration process (See point # 1). This system will be considered/labeled in-game as having suffered a "Warp Distortion", causing a permanent hyperspace time distortion bubble around the system where-by anyone entering it from the present will be effectively going into that local spaces past, and returning to the present time when leaving that bubble (Or something like that, "Time distortion" is enough of an explanation really).
- The "partial" version of the roll-back option could be for a "Minor Warp Distortion" in which data from the initial Registration system map is merged with current C.U.R.E. Resource and Asset data (Including Ship and Fleet info). This might not perfectly restore the systems final state block for block but it would be far better than losing everything. * Having this option would also help take the teeth out of a system host "destroying" his own system for overall strategic game advantage (by destroying certain fleets etc) or pay-off or just Rage-Quit.
* If the full roll-back "Warp Distortion" is used then players should be given a fair warning in advance of the systems status change from just being in an FTL-Blocked Warp Storm (offline) to undergoing a full on Warp-Distortion (roll-back). This will allow them to initiate an Emergency Fleet Recall (See point # 3). Or this process could be automatically initiated by the Core server for all relocatable fleets recorded by C.U.R.E. as being in that system. - If the 'Minor Warp Distortion' is chosen instead then all resources can be left in that system as they will be available for FTL again as soon as the system is brought back online.
++ Players should still always retain the ability to self-initiate an Emergency Fleet Recall while the system is still in FTL-Block status (Offline). Once initiated though it cannot be reversed. They will have to wait for their fleets to arrive at the nearest FTL accessible system at sub-light speeds (whatever those speeds are decided to be).
Hopefully these methods, protocols and options will make it possible to maintain as stable a distributed MMO universe as is possible and maintain the greatest in-game continuity as is possible.
- The Cubic Chunks Mod is back! Be a part of it's rebirth and Development.
-- Robinton's Mods: [ Mirror ] for some of his Mods incl Cubic Chunks Mod, due to DropBox broken links.
- Dungeon Generator for the Open Cubic Chunks Mod
- QuickSAVE-QuickLOAD for the Open Cubic Chunks Mod
This has also been posted to it's own thread in the Official Futurecraft forum [ Here ].
- The Cubic Chunks Mod is back! Be a part of it's rebirth and Development.
-- Robinton's Mods: [ Mirror ] for some of his Mods incl Cubic Chunks Mod, due to DropBox broken links.
- Dungeon Generator for the Open Cubic Chunks Mod
- QuickSAVE-QuickLOAD for the Open Cubic Chunks Mod
Well blurring the view as you fly a ship, like you said some time ago, is a start. I mean, sure it gives less things to render, allowing you computer to focus on other things, but that just helps the captain and those in the ship with him, what about those on the ground and in other ships? I know on my 8gb PC, flying the Lancaster bomber on Flan's WW2 pack takes up a few bits of bits. Then how does a lightspeed spaceship with hyperdrive work? Well guess you could limit lightspeed, or near-lightspeed to away from planets.
Also MineCrak's CURE idea is rather good, but, scanning worlds, might be tricky, because you could script it all down to locate large objects that resemble ships, however, players would try and hide items in chests, you could use your program to alert when large numbers of precious items are in chests, and wait for a human to approve them manually, but then players will simply hide them in more, sparsely-packed chests to avoid detection. I think that when a person wants to start playing FutureCraft, they can choose to start a new Solar-System, (Server) or join an existing Solar-System. If they want to start a new server, they will have to fill out a few boxes. Then the server generates a random world, (With a few things such as a spawn building, just a small one, starter kit. (IE: Wood, Stone, maybe a certificate-type crafting table, to prove they havn't hacked in, which they use just in the ever-essential Ship-crafting table recipe.) Then, they work their way towards their dream fleet.
Thank you for reading, hope you enjoyed my ideas. Again, Thank You.
What about some form of anti-hahai'vegotaeastereggshipandyoupnyrascalhavealittlejetfighteri'mgonnaeatyouupmuhahahahaha.... Sort of system they simply forbids that kinda stuff. But if there is a opposable number of ships, then engagement can well... Engage.
[EDIT]=====
Actually, having 7 days from when you start your server, (Or more) of total protection from galactic forces, meaning no attacks until you are ready (Or not.) To tie in with the game's Futuristic theme, that will be a large "bubble" surrounding your solar system. Any players who join that solar system during that period, will be subject to that "bubble"'s effects.