We are not misinterpreting the EULA to force people's work into the public domain, we are simply pointing out that once a mod is released, it is in the public domain! I am reading the EULA as it is written, yes it is very colloquial, but let us not forget that when it first came out, we asked Marc what 'content' means. He said it means 'mods', among other things.
I'd be confused if the Mojang employees can't even agree with each other.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
I'd be confused if the Mojang employees can't even agree with each other.
A tweet later in that line says "no EULA has ever been as scrutinized as ours", which is so laughable I frankly forgot to.
And the next tweet after that admits this is not the view of mojang as a whole.
I'm confused as to why you think a programmer has as much say in the matter as customer service and legal.
I'd be confused if the Mojang employees can't even agree with each other.
Ryan Holtz is a new employee to Mojang and was previously a modder himself, there is a conflict of interests here. Just because the new guy doesn't agree with the head of support, who gets his answers from the people who run the company, doesn't mean that Marc is now suddenly wrong. If Marc was giving out false information, he would have corrected himself in the month he has answered the "content" question multiple times. So yeah, unless someone above Holtz (who I personally have little respect for for how he treats customers and refers to his co-workers and demands special privileges because he is now a dev) goes and publically corrects Marc, then what he has to say means little.
I tweeted earlier to the effect that Mojang has been ignoring & neglecting modders for years. What we're seeing now is the result of Mojang's lack of guidance to the mod community. It's been two years and the mod API is still a long way off and Mojang has little engagement with the modding community.
Every community has bad apples. Since there have been no rules, people have been able to do what they want. I'm not defending those modders by any means. But I don't see the "gross misuse" you mention. What's happened is that there are a few mods that people want to use where the modder has done things to limit its use for arbitrary reasons in a user-hostile manner. Because Mojang had set no rules.
Instead of players and modders fighting we should be working together to hold Mojang's feet to the fire to deliver the mod API.
Blame Mojang, not modders. It's healthier for the community.
Well, Mojang has now set rules and people are throwing a fit about it. Also, Mojang has proven that they are actively working on their plugin API, however I am sure you understand that the game's code is an absolute mess and that the recent series of patches have included massive changes to the engine and massive refactoring of the game's code. You cannot release a plugin api on an unstable engine that is still receiving massive changes to its internal structure. One of the key features for the plugin api is that it will prevent mods breaking every time the game updates, however what happens if you release an api when the next patch results in changes to the game's engine and what not? That is right, the api breaks and anything made for the api breaks with it. Sorry that doing this prep work takes time if Mojang wishes to do it correctly, but that is just reality.
Trying to blame Mojang for the attitude of the community is stupid.
A tweet later in that line says "no EULA has ever been as scrutinized as ours", which is so laughable I frankly forgot to.
And the next tweet after that admits this is not the view of mojang as a whole.
I'm confused as to why you think a programmer has as much say in the matter as customer service and legal.
He also states later in the line that he was told by a coworker (https://twitter.com/TheMogMiner/status/427303314766565376). Plus, the reference to the scrutinization is followed directly by "let alone as opined on by teenagers and college students." He's most likely implying the reactions of the kind seen, for instance, in this specific thread. I won't draw a conclusion at that, though, since I'm not Ryan.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
He also states later in the line that he was told by a coworker (https://twitter.com/...303314766565376). Plus, the reference to the scrutinization is followed directly by "let alone as opined on by teenagers and college students." He's most likely implying the reactions of the kind seen, for instance, in this specific thread. I won't draw a conclusion at that, though, since I'm not Ryan.
Unless his coworker is the CEO of Mojang or one of Mojang's lawyers, does it mean anything? An employee can disagree with the EULA, especially when their own background gives them a conflict of interests, but that doesn't mean that their opinions on the EULA matter.
We are not misinterpreting the EULA to force people's work into the public domain, we are simply pointing out that once a mod is released, it is in the public domain!
Wrong. Notch's word trumps that of all other Mojang staff or any malinterpretation of the EULA, and yesterday he specifically answered the question in the tweet that's been at least twice cited in this thread that modders can choose the license for their code. Therefore it's not public domain, because a release to public domain is the equivalent of a license and few modders choose that.
I used 'malinterpretation' because this topic is about twisting Mojang's EULA to serve another agenda. See below.
To expand on what Enzer said with "All of these are nonsense arguments designed to cloud the main topic", the main topic is that modders are bullying the community into thinking they are God's gift to us, and we have to stop that.
It's Mojang's job to stop any bullying of users, not ours. We paid them for it.
But what bullying? I've documented the only case of modder bullying I'm aware of, but it was on another modder, not users. Rather than being fact driven and citing references, your arguments seem to be based on emotions.
If this topic is about modders bullying users, why is it called Replying to To Mod Creators: Copyrights and Malicious code? Why isn't bullying or abuse of users mentioned in the OP?
I'll answer: because this topic is an effort to exploit Mojang's lack of clarity to advance a particular agenda.
Unless his coworker is the CEO of Mojang or one of Mojang's lawyers, does it mean anything? An employee can disagree with the EULA, especially when their own background gives them a conflict of interests, but that doesn't mean that their opinions on the EULA matter.
Marc isn't the CEO either; Carl Manneh is - why should we trust Marc then?
My source, thanks kindly to Enzer for acting as our mouthpiece in this. http://i.imgur.com/LsSy9hz.png In addition, I am more inclined to agree with Marc than with Ryan, conflict of interest notwithstanding. What this thread has clearly demonstrated is that Mojang needs to properly clarify what they mean in a certain few lines of the EULA. And although I would support modder's having rights over their mods, I would not support modders having more rights than users, or modders rights trumping users rights.
There's one thing about that tweet - let's presume you're right and mods are part of the definition of "content". Marc said "on our use of". He didn't say "on anyone's use of". Why would he say "on our use of" instead of "on anyone's use of" if he and the license suggests that everyone has permission to do what they want with the content? You could blame Twitter's 140 char limit, but he could write "anyones" without the apostrophe or even omit the word "anyone's" altogether.
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
But what bullying? I've documented the only case of modder bullying I'm aware of, but it was on another modder, not users. Rather than being fact driven and citing references, your arguments seem to be based on emotions.
If this topic is about modders bullying users, why is it called Replying to To Mod Creators: Copyrights and Malicious code? Why isn't bullying or abuse of users mentioned in the OP?
I'll answer: because this topic is an effort to exploit Mojang's lack of clarity to advance a particular agenda.
I guess you've never heard of the "opening volley" I mentioned in a previous post?
Lil bit of history. Sir Sengir, maker of the Forestry mod, once added code to his mod that turned his bees into explosives if the mod detected any words related to "technic" in the install path. This had the effect of destroying any world which was run with the updated mod. This would happen whether the user had installed the updated mod personally or not.
Similar action has been enacted by the IC2 addon grettech, which will crash the game if it detects it is installed in a technic-related directory. Despite what the error message claims, gregtech was never even considered for an official technic pack, so all the users of gregtech in a technic-based install have done it as users.
THIS is the bullying referred to. Sengir's actions borderline criminal in the destruction of private property, and gregtech targets users who install the mod manually because his claimed target never tried to go against his wishes in the first place.
Marc isn't the CEO either; Carl Manneh is - why should we trust Marc then?
Marc is the head of Mojang's customer support. Customers asking clarification of the EULA falls under Customer Support. Marc, as head of Customer Support, is given guidelines and material approved by Mojang in order to answer questions to customer's questions regarding Mojang, its products and its policies. If there is anything Marc does not have material on, it is part of his job to get an answer from those approved to give such information and then relay it to us. It is literally his job to field these questions, that is why Marc's current stance on EULA questions is to email customer support with your questions so that it may be answered in full and not be restrained by things such as character limits.
So unless Mojang as a company is purposely telling Marc wrong information or has decided that they are not going to tell their Head of Customer Service to not answer EULA questions and not directly tell the customer base to email him any other questions they have, then his words stand since they are handed down by Mojang itself. The only reason Marc reminds people that he is not a lawyer is because he is not on Mojang's lawyer team and thus cannot give you the exact legalese that Mojang uses to support its EULA, he is only able to pass on what information those in charge give him.
The most important thing is for me that there is a big difference between mods, plugins and tools on the one side and content on the other.
Even if you consider mods, plugins and tools to be content there is a more specific statement for these parts of content.
That statment tells that the one who creates that specific mod, plugin or tool is the OWNER of it and that he / she can do anything with it except selling it.
That corresponds with Notch's free beer statement.
After defining the more specific parts of content and the rights corresponding to them the rights regarding all other parts of content are defined. Otherwise the EULA would contradict itself by first giving rights and then trying to remove them. That would not work and any lawyer would clearly recognize this.
So the EULA is really clear enough to make a proper statement on this:
Modders are free to define what has to happen with their mods, plugins and tools in exception to sell it.
In some kind of programming language you have there a select case situation:
SELECT CASE
CASE mods, plugins and tools
rights defined for mods, plugins and tools
CASE ELSE (all other content)
rights defined for all other content
END CASE
Yes, it is really that easy. Simple text analysis...
The EULA does not contradict itself if it considers mods/tools/plugins as content because something belonging (to use the term that the EULA uses) is exclusive to any other rights you think you might have to something. The content can still belong to you and at the same time you can still give Mojang certain rights and privileges and allow for Mojang to extend those rights and privileges to other users. This is what you agree to in the EULA if you make your content public and it is what Mojang asks of content makers in return for giving users the right to make content for their product, because in the end, even if it is your content, you are still making it for Mojang's work and they have exclusive rights to allow people to make content and what regulations that content must adhere to in order to be in compliance with their license to make content.
I guess you've never heard of the "opening volley" I mentioned in a previous post?
Lil bit of history. Sir Sengir, maker of the Forestry mod, once added code to his mod that turned his bees into explosives if the mod detected any words related to "technic" in the install path. This had the effect of destroying any world which was run with the updated mod. This would happen whether the user had installed the updated mod personally or not.
Similar action has been enacted by the IC2 addon grettech, which will crash the game if it detects it is installed in a technic-related directory. Despite what the error message claims, gregtech was never even considered for an official technic pack, so all the users of gregtech in a technic-based install have done it as users.
THIS is the bullying referred to. Sengir's actions borderline criminal in the destruction of private property, and gregtech targets users who install the mod manually because his claimed target never tried to go against his wishes in the first place.
I'm well aware of the Forestry issue and it's ancient history now. The Gregtech thing is more recent. I know of one, but I'm not sure if I knew of this one.
In any case I don't consider this to be bullying. It's a user-hostile abuse of power due to Mojang's lack of clarity. I addressed this a few posts ago.
My source, thanks kindly to Enzer for acting as our mouthpiece in this. http://i.imgur.com/LsSy9hz.png In addition, I am more inclined to agree with Marc than with Ryan, conflict of interest notwithstanding.
The jig's up, guys. People, including Marc, are onto you.
The purge ends now.
"Haha I win so shut up so stop arguing"?
I don't see anywhere in there where Marc says "modders have full legal rights to do whatever the hell they want to users in the process of controlling every single use of their work"
Or are you trying to claim this thread's real purpose is to force modders to become second class citizens in the community. Slaves forced to do users bidding and take every insult lobbed at them?
Curse owns and operates this forum and all dialog is subject to their whim. There is no free speech here.
I understand that you wish to appear to speak for Mojang, but the free speech ploy doesn't fly.
I am in no way claiming that I speak for Mojang, don't be silly. I can however, repeat what has been officially said by their support team, especially to questions I specifically asked.
Also, to use your own terms, are you speaking for Curse? Do you speak for them that I am not allowed to talk about this subject? Are you threatening my right to speak? I am allowed to speak on this subject because I remain within the guidelines Curse enforces in order to post on their forums. Do not speak for Curse and threaten my right to speak.
Also, their is more to that conversation that you posted. Marc is no longer answering questions via twitter, but is instead asking others to email their questions to him since twitter is a poor form of communication because it has a limit to how much you are able to say. https://twitter.com/Marc_IRL/status/427395360219074560
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This is something I've always found rather odd. Im a youtuber so my job is to try and get my content in front of as many people as possible. Granted the situation is a bit different from modding as I make my living that way while modders mainly do what they do for free or practically nothing.
That being said, I never understood why some of the bigger mods were so hostile to the community.
For instance, Azanor, he makes Thaum4 an outstanding mod, a mod I've loved. However using his mod outside of a few "special" packs is hard due to his completely restrictive policy. Jumping through hoops is one thing, no options other than off is another.
Mods are complicated, the average minecrafter struggles with simply using a modpack that autoinstalls for you much less installing a mod by hand. Why make it so hard for your audience to enjoy your content?
When I asked Azanor about it his reply was, its not about adfly its about principle, I've been burned in the past so I just dont allow it. The issue with this attitude is people like myself who are perfectly happy to not only ask for permission but promote your mod to thousands of people are screwed out of the opportunity.
While many of you are raging against this change at the end of the day I personally think this is good for mods and minecraft.
More mods will be in more packs, more mods will end up in the hands of players in creative ways that they weren't previously, and thus more people will be enjoying content for years to come! Isn't that the point?
I personally dont see the down side here. More advertising, More downloads, More people using your stuff. More people enjoying Minecraft. Less time spent emailing and private msging back and forth.
Or are you trying to claim this thread's real purpose is to force modders to become second class citizens in the community. Slaves forced to do users bidding and take every insult lobbed at them?
That's not what I said. I don't want either modders or users to be second-class.
I'm talking about the purge. Nekowulf, do you support the purge?
I don't have to claim what this thread is about. I merely have to quote the person who started the thread, lukeb28:
The main issue is the toxicity of the modded community. It needs to be purged. Some modders are feeling over privileged due to their mod(s) taking off, leaving others of equal if not greater quality in their wake. They feel too entitled and have to be knocked from their high horse. For some of them, if they don't get their ego stroked regularly they throw a fit…
Also, their is more to that conversation that you posted. Marc is no longer answering questions via twitter, but is instead asking others to email their questions to him since twitter is a poor form of communication because it has a limit to how much you are able to say. https://twitter.com/...395360219074560
You don't understand that when Jadedcat and Marc were discussing "users twisting Marc's words to use as a club against people they disagree with" they were talking about you?
I think a lot of modders are throwing a fit. If you release your mod, why do you all of a sudden have to tell us how to use it? It doesn't make sense that you would make a mod for people to play and then say only these people can play it. There is nothing new here, anyone who was gonna use the mod anyways without permissions are still there, and anyone who was gonna rage at shutdown code is still gonna be there. If modders, who work OPTIONALLY, leave over nothing changing, then they can go ahead and do so.
You don't understand that when Jadedcat and Marc were discussing "users twisting Marc's words to use as a club against people they disagree with" they were talking about you?
EnzerDeLeo, do you support the purge?
I have been very blatant in my questions to Marc and he has answered my questions rather thoroughly. If Marc is specifically saying what I am saying is out of context, in regards to the questions I posed to him, and the answers I received, then he can directly say tell me that I am taking him out of context. Until which point, don't not make assumptions on who he is directing that statement because there are a huge number of threads and people talking in said threads that could be directed of. Wouldn't want to have you taking his words out of context, now would we?
Also, I dislike the term "purge" and don't really understand what you mean. What are you asking if I agree with?
I say the following as my own opinion:
Are you asking if I agree that modders should not mod if they do not agree with the terms that Mojang has set down in return for giving the modders permission to mod their game? Then yes, I would not want to force someone into an EULA if they do no agree and by not releasing your content publicly, you are not entering into Mojang's EULA for those section.
Are you asking if I agree that if modders refuse to acknowledge that malicious code is a bad thing for the community and if they refuse to adhere to Mojang's wishes and potential future EULA in regards to putting malicious code in their mods should no longer be part of the modding community. Then yeah, I would say the the modding community should not accept those who are support malicious code.
You have to be more specific, I will not say I agree to some random term whose meaning could be taken out of context or misconstrued in the future. Give me specific scenarios and I will tell you if I agree to them or not in my own personal opinion.
Please reread the thread, your argument has been brought up and debunked, especially in regards to your second point in that a representative of Mojang has stated that the extended rights that Mojang is allowed to give is extended to the entire userbase.
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Ultimately I really do not care one way or the other. I have no investment in mods as I rarely use them as I moderate an unmodded server and any bukkit plugins we use are all built in house and not publicly released. I do not make mod packs, and I try to steer clear of the community as often as possible because I find it incredibly toxic compared to any other modding community.
My only interest in this subject is that it appeared that Mojang was finally taking steps in trying to improve its community as letting it self governed is one of the many reasons why it has lapsed into such a dreary state. I am of the opinion) based on my understanding of the law, how the EULA is worded in layman's (I honestly wish they would make public the full legalese along side it.. though those take longer to read, they are a lot more iron clad in their intent and meaning), and based on the questions I and others have asked and the answers we have gotten) that the current EULA is a great step forward in this regard. Some people disagree for various reasons, but I am not concerned all to much. If anything, I hope the recent drama will lead to either Mojang releasing a better worded EULA with stricter meaning and phrasing, or releasing the full legalese document.
Beyond that I just find the whole thing fascinating and interesting to debate about. I am not pushing any agenda, I could honestly care less if things went tits up because again, the plugins I use are all in house.
Please reread the thread, your argument has been brought up and debunked, especially in regards to your second point in that a representative of Mojang has stated that the extended rights that Mojang is allowed to give is extended to the entire userbase.
Where was that stated again? I completely agree with walkerjonny, what is written in the EULA is what counts. The only reason I can't upvote him now is this:
The license never said that everyone are free to distribute any mod they want. As for what the representatives are saying on Twitter; if a case ended up in court I doubt Mojang can get away with saying that "they should have agreed to our twitter posts." After all, the end users are agreeing to the license when they buy the game, there's no way they should be expected to go through Twitter posts, particularly because over time it all gets buried under tons of new Twitter posts.
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
For us to end all this hostility, there must be a purge.
[snip]
The main issue is the toxicity of the modded community. It needs to be purged. Some modders are feeling over privileged due to their mod(s) taking off, leaving others of equal if not greater quality in their wake. They feel too entitled and have to be knocked from their high horse. For some of them, if they don't get their ego stroked regularly they throw a fit, and the scenario Neko outlined could become a real event. If that happened what would Mojang do? Go on, speculate.
We are going to lose some of our best mods. I am sure of this. Which ones is difficult to say, but their will be a loss. These loses should not be mourned like RedPower was, they should be celebrated! Every mod that steps down is a mod we don't have to fear. Same goes for the mods that leave us forever.
[emphasis added]
We know that lukeb28 supports the purge since he's the one who proposed it.
EnzerDeLeo, do you support lukeb28's proposed purge?
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Curse PremiumPlease cite your source?
I'll thank an IRC user for posting a link to this very interesting post from Ryan Holtz: https://twitter.com/TheMogMiner/status/427145966676758528
I'd be confused if the Mojang employees can't even agree with each other.
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
A tweet later in that line says "no EULA has ever been as scrutinized as ours", which is so laughable I frankly forgot to.
And the next tweet after that admits this is not the view of mojang as a whole.
I'm confused as to why you think a programmer has as much say in the matter as customer service and legal.
Ryan Holtz is a new employee to Mojang and was previously a modder himself, there is a conflict of interests here. Just because the new guy doesn't agree with the head of support, who gets his answers from the people who run the company, doesn't mean that Marc is now suddenly wrong. If Marc was giving out false information, he would have corrected himself in the month he has answered the "content" question multiple times. So yeah, unless someone above Holtz (who I personally have little respect for for how he treats customers and refers to his co-workers and demands special privileges because he is now a dev) goes and publically corrects Marc, then what he has to say means little.
I'm sorry, but you cannot infringe on my protected right to free speech to spread the information Mojang has presented.
Well, Mojang has now set rules and people are throwing a fit about it. Also, Mojang has proven that they are actively working on their plugin API, however I am sure you understand that the game's code is an absolute mess and that the recent series of patches have included massive changes to the engine and massive refactoring of the game's code. You cannot release a plugin api on an unstable engine that is still receiving massive changes to its internal structure. One of the key features for the plugin api is that it will prevent mods breaking every time the game updates, however what happens if you release an api when the next patch results in changes to the game's engine and what not? That is right, the api breaks and anything made for the api breaks with it. Sorry that doing this prep work takes time if Mojang wishes to do it correctly, but that is just reality.
Trying to blame Mojang for the attitude of the community is stupid.
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Curse PremiumHe also states later in the line that he was told by a coworker (https://twitter.com/TheMogMiner/status/427303314766565376). Plus, the reference to the scrutinization is followed directly by "let alone as opined on by teenagers and college students." He's most likely implying the reactions of the kind seen, for instance, in this specific thread. I won't draw a conclusion at that, though, since I'm not Ryan.
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
Unless his coworker is the CEO of Mojang or one of Mojang's lawyers, does it mean anything? An employee can disagree with the EULA, especially when their own background gives them a conflict of interests, but that doesn't mean that their opinions on the EULA matter.
Wrong. Notch's word trumps that of all other Mojang staff or any malinterpretation of the EULA, and yesterday he specifically answered the question in the tweet that's been at least twice cited in this thread that modders can choose the license for their code. Therefore it's not public domain, because a release to public domain is the equivalent of a license and few modders choose that.
I used 'malinterpretation' because this topic is about twisting Mojang's EULA to serve another agenda. See below.
It's Mojang's job to stop any bullying of users, not ours. We paid them for it.
But what bullying? I've documented the only case of modder bullying I'm aware of, but it was on another modder, not users. Rather than being fact driven and citing references, your arguments seem to be based on emotions.
If this topic is about modders bullying users, why is it called Replying to To Mod Creators: Copyrights and Malicious code? Why isn't bullying or abuse of users mentioned in the OP?
I'll answer: because this topic is an effort to exploit Mojang's lack of clarity to advance a particular agenda.
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Curse PremiumMarc isn't the CEO either; Carl Manneh is - why should we trust Marc then?
There's one thing about that tweet - let's presume you're right and mods are part of the definition of "content". Marc said "on our use of". He didn't say "on anyone's use of". Why would he say "on our use of" instead of "on anyone's use of" if he and the license suggests that everyone has permission to do what they want with the content? You could blame Twitter's 140 char limit, but he could write "anyones" without the apostrophe or even omit the word "anyone's" altogether.
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
And that's what the EULA change and clarification is meant to do.
I guess you've never heard of the "opening volley" I mentioned in a previous post?
Lil bit of history. Sir Sengir, maker of the Forestry mod, once added code to his mod that turned his bees into explosives if the mod detected any words related to "technic" in the install path. This had the effect of destroying any world which was run with the updated mod. This would happen whether the user had installed the updated mod personally or not.
Similar action has been enacted by the IC2 addon grettech, which will crash the game if it detects it is installed in a technic-related directory. Despite what the error message claims, gregtech was never even considered for an official technic pack, so all the users of gregtech in a technic-based install have done it as users.
THIS is the bullying referred to. Sengir's actions borderline criminal in the destruction of private property, and gregtech targets users who install the mod manually because his claimed target never tried to go against his wishes in the first place.
Marc's job is to be the mouthpiece. Ryan's is not.
Marc is the head of Mojang's customer support. Customers asking clarification of the EULA falls under Customer Support. Marc, as head of Customer Support, is given guidelines and material approved by Mojang in order to answer questions to customer's questions regarding Mojang, its products and its policies. If there is anything Marc does not have material on, it is part of his job to get an answer from those approved to give such information and then relay it to us. It is literally his job to field these questions, that is why Marc's current stance on EULA questions is to email customer support with your questions so that it may be answered in full and not be restrained by things such as character limits.
So unless Mojang as a company is purposely telling Marc wrong information or has decided that they are not going to tell their Head of Customer Service to not answer EULA questions and not directly tell the customer base to email him any other questions they have, then his words stand since they are handed down by Mojang itself. The only reason Marc reminds people that he is not a lawyer is because he is not on Mojang's lawyer team and thus cannot give you the exact legalese that Mojang uses to support its EULA, he is only able to pass on what information those in charge give him.
The EULA does not contradict itself if it considers mods/tools/plugins as content because something belonging (to use the term that the EULA uses) is exclusive to any other rights you think you might have to something. The content can still belong to you and at the same time you can still give Mojang certain rights and privileges and allow for Mojang to extend those rights and privileges to other users. This is what you agree to in the EULA if you make your content public and it is what Mojang asks of content makers in return for giving users the right to make content for their product, because in the end, even if it is your content, you are still making it for Mojang's work and they have exclusive rights to allow people to make content and what regulations that content must adhere to in order to be in compliance with their license to make content.
I'm well aware of the Forestry issue and it's ancient history now. The Gregtech thing is more recent. I know of one, but I'm not sure if I knew of this one.
In any case I don't consider this to be bullying. It's a user-hostile abuse of power due to Mojang's lack of clarity. I addressed this a few posts ago.
Curse owns and operates this forum and all dialog is subject to their whim. There is no free speech here.
I understand that you wish to appear to speak for Mojang, but the free speech ploy doesn't fly.
Marc's much more recent tweet:
I note that you didn't cite it.
The jig's up, guys. People, including Marc, are onto you.
The purge ends now.
Twitter: @Stratagerm
"Haha I win so shut up so stop arguing"?
I don't see anywhere in there where Marc says "modders have full legal rights to do whatever the hell they want to users in the process of controlling every single use of their work"
Or are you trying to claim this thread's real purpose is to force modders to become second class citizens in the community. Slaves forced to do users bidding and take every insult lobbed at them?
I am in no way claiming that I speak for Mojang, don't be silly. I can however, repeat what has been officially said by their support team, especially to questions I specifically asked.
Also, to use your own terms, are you speaking for Curse? Do you speak for them that I am not allowed to talk about this subject? Are you threatening my right to speak? I am allowed to speak on this subject because I remain within the guidelines Curse enforces in order to post on their forums. Do not speak for Curse and threaten my right to speak.
Also, their is more to that conversation that you posted. Marc is no longer answering questions via twitter, but is instead asking others to email their questions to him since twitter is a poor form of communication because it has a limit to how much you are able to say. https://twitter.com/Marc_IRL/status/427395360219074560
That being said, I never understood why some of the bigger mods were so hostile to the community.
For instance, Azanor, he makes Thaum4 an outstanding mod, a mod I've loved. However using his mod outside of a few "special" packs is hard due to his completely restrictive policy. Jumping through hoops is one thing, no options other than off is another.
Mods are complicated, the average minecrafter struggles with simply using a modpack that autoinstalls for you much less installing a mod by hand. Why make it so hard for your audience to enjoy your content?
When I asked Azanor about it his reply was, its not about adfly its about principle, I've been burned in the past so I just dont allow it. The issue with this attitude is people like myself who are perfectly happy to not only ask for permission but promote your mod to thousands of people are screwed out of the opportunity.
While many of you are raging against this change at the end of the day I personally think this is good for mods and minecraft.
More mods will be in more packs, more mods will end up in the hands of players in creative ways that they weren't previously, and thus more people will be enjoying content for years to come! Isn't that the point?
I personally dont see the down side here. More advertising, More downloads, More people using your stuff. More people enjoying Minecraft. Less time spent emailing and private msging back and forth.
That's not what I said. I don't want either modders or users to be second-class.
I'm talking about the purge. Nekowulf, do you support the purge?
I don't have to claim what this thread is about. I merely have to quote the person who started the thread, lukeb28:
And next up,
You don't understand that when Jadedcat and Marc were discussing "users twisting Marc's words to use as a club against people they disagree with" they were talking about you?
EnzerDeLeo, do you support the purge?
Twitter: @Stratagerm
I have been very blatant in my questions to Marc and he has answered my questions rather thoroughly. If Marc is specifically saying what I am saying is out of context, in regards to the questions I posed to him, and the answers I received, then he can directly say tell me that I am taking him out of context. Until which point, don't not make assumptions on who he is directing that statement because there are a huge number of threads and people talking in said threads that could be directed of. Wouldn't want to have you taking his words out of context, now would we?
Also, I dislike the term "purge" and don't really understand what you mean. What are you asking if I agree with?
I say the following as my own opinion:
Are you asking if I agree that modders should not mod if they do not agree with the terms that Mojang has set down in return for giving the modders permission to mod their game? Then yes, I would not want to force someone into an EULA if they do no agree and by not releasing your content publicly, you are not entering into Mojang's EULA for those section.
Are you asking if I agree that if modders refuse to acknowledge that malicious code is a bad thing for the community and if they refuse to adhere to Mojang's wishes and potential future EULA in regards to putting malicious code in their mods should no longer be part of the modding community. Then yeah, I would say the the modding community should not accept those who are support malicious code.
You have to be more specific, I will not say I agree to some random term whose meaning could be taken out of context or misconstrued in the future. Give me specific scenarios and I will tell you if I agree to them or not in my own personal opinion.
Please reread the thread, your argument has been brought up and debunked, especially in regards to your second point in that a representative of Mojang has stated that the extended rights that Mojang is allowed to give is extended to the entire userbase.
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Ultimately I really do not care one way or the other. I have no investment in mods as I rarely use them as I moderate an unmodded server and any bukkit plugins we use are all built in house and not publicly released. I do not make mod packs, and I try to steer clear of the community as often as possible because I find it incredibly toxic compared to any other modding community.
My only interest in this subject is that it appeared that Mojang was finally taking steps in trying to improve its community as letting it self governed is one of the many reasons why it has lapsed into such a dreary state. I am of the opinion) based on my understanding of the law, how the EULA is worded in layman's (I honestly wish they would make public the full legalese along side it.. though those take longer to read, they are a lot more iron clad in their intent and meaning), and based on the questions I and others have asked and the answers we have gotten) that the current EULA is a great step forward in this regard. Some people disagree for various reasons, but I am not concerned all to much. If anything, I hope the recent drama will lead to either Mojang releasing a better worded EULA with stricter meaning and phrasing, or releasing the full legalese document.
Beyond that I just find the whole thing fascinating and interesting to debate about. I am not pushing any agenda, I could honestly care less if things went tits up because again, the plugins I use are all in house.
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Curse PremiumWhere was that stated again? I completely agree with walkerjonny, what is written in the EULA is what counts. The only reason I can't upvote him now is this:
The license never said that everyone are free to distribute any mod they want. As for what the representatives are saying on Twitter; if a case ended up in court I doubt Mojang can get away with saying that "they should have agreed to our twitter posts." After all, the end users are agreeing to the license when they buy the game, there's no way they should be expected to go through Twitter posts, particularly because over time it all gets buried under tons of new Twitter posts.
I AM NOT YOUR PERSONAL MINECRAFT MOD SUPPORT AGENT, SO PLEASE DO NOT PM ME ABOUT PROBLEMATIC MODS THAT ARE NOT MINE. If you're having trouble/crashes with a mod, you'll have better luck resolving it in this forum section than PMing me. If you already made a topic, be patient about responses. If you have troubles with anything non-Minecraft related on your PC, I might be able to help, though, but no promises. Even though I could wish to be, I'm not a wizard.
Purge is not my term, it's lukeb28's. This is what he said:
We know that lukeb28 supports the purge since he's the one who proposed it.
EnzerDeLeo, do you support lukeb28's proposed purge?
Twitter: @Stratagerm
If by "the purge" you mean luke's proposed removal of the "toxicity" of this modding community, who wouldn't support "The Purge" (tm)?
Again, you are asking if I approve of something behind a term with no concrete meaning that could change at a later date.
In your own words, please ask me what scenario I support and I will answer this.