And as for tools being developed, HA! I'd put money on the idea that people are already working on plugins for Blender to do this. I wouldn't bet against someone having started work on a standalone modeler either. If there's one thing that I've learned out the Minecraft community, it's that people love to create stuff even and often especially when it's bad for the community.
My point is, requiring tools prevent a bunch of people from doing something. As the saying goes, "Default is king", kinda like how most people use the OS that's on their computer when they buy it.
There are people who don't use plugins, mods, or anything of the sort, maybe because they never even think you can do it. I bet there are people who don't use packs just because you have to download them.
So I think that even if there is a plugin for every 3D modelling program there is, a significant number of people (who would do it if they could just export a file) probably won't do anything with it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
Alvoria, I think that it won't be an issue. Just because someone can make a giant teapot doesn't mean anyone will use it. We could make them before with jar mods anyway. They've just become more accessible.
Someone before said the shading wasn't working. This might be relevant:
[Bug MC-47492] – The Brightness.. or shading.. broken..
BTW, where did the giant teapot image come from anyway?
My point is, requiring tools prevent a bunch of people from doing something. As the saying goes, "Default is king", kinda like how most people use the OS that's on their computer when they buy it.
There are people who don't use plugins, mods, or anything of the sort, maybe because they never even think you can do it. I bet there are people who don't use packs just because you have to download them.
So I think that even if there is a plugin for every 3D modelling program there is, a significant number of people (who would do it if they could just export a file) probably won't do anything with it.
So what's your point?
There are already people who won't use resource packs. But of those that do, the majority of people only use the most well-known ones. It's hard enough to make a pack and hope a few people will enjoy it in the current environment. It's already difficult to get a small-time pack to get even a few downloads... even if it's good.
Mod support complicates matters. Packs like Sphax are big partly because they have the mod support that people want. It's not easy for a single artist to pull that off. When dwarfed by the few mega-packs that are out there, a new pack artist is almost doomed to obscurity.
Now with the possibility of extensive detail created through modifying the block files, that divide is going to get even bigger. This is a vanilla feature, Insomniac. No mods required. Making a pack with the detail that people will desire in the models has just increased exponentially in difficulty in skill. If I had started my first pack yesterday, I'd completely give up today knowing that nobody would ever care about what I was doing because I could never compete with the spectacle that will soon be required to get noticed.
Whether or not this is good for the game... it's bad for the community.
If it were just a few tweaks, or changing the tops of the cactus, or offsetting a few blocks I would welcome it. I'd love it. I'd be praising it as the best thing ever!
But it's not just that. Once you can make a teapot by placing a flower there's no point in building anymore. No point in Minecraft. Just open up a modeler and make a giant Gundam... and then place it in-game. Boom. More detail than you could ever hope for with blocks.
Alvoria, I think that it won't be an issue. Just because someone can make a giant teapot doesn't mean anyone will use it. We could make them before with jar mods anyway. They've just become more accessible.
A valid point. The difference is that with mods it required more technical skill. Once a modeler is made for this format, there will be a lot less skill required. Just look at how many mods started using custom-geometry blocks after Techne and Turbo Model Thingy were developed as opposed to before.
While I will concede that I'm almost certainly overreacting, I think the rest of you underestimate just how much this will change resource pack creation if it becomes an official feature in its current state.
Alvoria, I think that it won't be an issue. Just because someone can make a giant teapot doesn't mean anyone will use it. We could make them before with jar mods anyway. They've just become more accessible.
Someone before said the shading wasn't working. This might be relevant:
[Bug MC-47492] – The Brightness.. or shading.. broken..
BTW, where did the giant teapot image come from anyway?
It was posted on Reddit, by someone names MrCheeze
Go to page 3 and press ctrl+f, then type in flower. It will show the flower teapot post.
ninja'd by Alvoria
Oh, and Drazile, I knew they are entities, but I thought it would be neat to have
This is personally my favorite change so far. I think this will allow for a lot of amazing resource packs. I can see where Alvoria is coming from with their concerns however I truly think this will improve the general minecraft experience for all users. I personally love the idea of a server or an adventure map recommending a super cool resource pack to create amazing structures.
As for the concerns about resource packs without these fancy new models, we have seen similar changes in the way resource packs work. For example sounds have been added to resource packs and in my opinion I find that that is just as cool as this model feature. I don't download that many resource packs however when I do I don't expect them to be loaded with fancy sounds, the same is also true with animated item/block frames.
Much like the addition of sounds to resource packs I feel this change will be more common in the general public in the form of server/adventure map specific packs.
As for the concerns about resource packs without these fancy new models, we have seen similar changes in the way resource packs work. For example sounds have been added to resource packs and in my opinion I find that that is just as cool as this model feature. I don't download that many resource packs however when I do I don't expect them to be loaded with fancy sounds, the same is also true with animated item/block frames.
Much like the addition of sounds to resource packs I feel this change will be more common in the general public in the form of server/adventure map specific packs.
To kinda go off-topic a little bit, I'm somewhat surprised just how little people have done with sounds in resource packs. I know a lot of it is because of the technical problems that still exist within Minecraft (overlapping sounds, songs can't be longer than default, etc.); but the lack of a real concentrated effort to make cool stuff with that change seems really odd coming from this community.
Of course... I'm also reminded that it's a lot easier to find free tools for graphics than it is for audio. GIMP and Paint.net make good substitutes for Photoshop. Not a lot of good substitutes for a full-on ProTools setup, a quality Mic, and a studio to record in.
To kinda go off-topic a little bit, I'm somewhat surprised just how little people have done with sounds in resource packs. I know a lot of it is because of the technical problems that still exist within Minecraft (overlapping sounds, songs can't be longer than default, etc.); but the lack of a real concentrated effort to make cool stuff with that change seems really odd coming from this community.
Of course... I'm also reminded that it's a lot easier to find free tools for graphics than it is for audio. GIMP and Paint.net make good substitutes for Photoshop. Not a lot of good substitutes for a full-on ProTools setup, a quality Mic, and a studio to record in.
Further more, you can't fake sounds. You actually need to get the gun or the hammer or the baby lamb.
My point is, this isn't exactly going to turn Minecraft into Garry's mod or SourceFilmMaker...... like I said, it could be worse, like supporting an actual 3D save format instead of .JSON files.
As for the concerns about resource packs without these fancy new models, we have seen similar changes in the way resource packs work.
Good point. I thought about saying this earlier (I don't think I did), I could imagine a similar argument when the destitched-texture pack format came out, that Minecraft now "officially" supported HD textures, so now it's will make the game "less Minecraft-y" because now people can be vain and make/use uber-HD packs which goes against the original intention behind the game (use innovate ideas instead of eye-candy).
To kinda go off-topic a little bit, I'm somewhat surprised just how little people have done with sounds in resource packs. I know a lot of it is because of the technical problems that still exist within Minecraft (overlapping sounds, songs can't be longer than default, etc.); but the lack of a real concentrated effort to make cool stuff with that change seems really odd coming from this community.
Of course... I'm also reminded that it's a lot easier to find free tools for graphics than it is for audio. GIMP and Paint.net make good substitutes for Photoshop. Not a lot of good substitutes for a full-on ProTools setup, a quality Mic, and a studio to record in.
I think because it's like many things Mojang does, it gets a lot of attention at first, it gets worked on and an initial version is added, and then they stop working on it for the most part, (until later when they redo/replace it). The initial idea behind it was "the ability to add custom sound events, such as chirping birds in a sunny forest and crashing water near waterfalls" or something to that effect. However, this system they added DOESN'T allow adding new events, only changing existing ones. There are only "triggered" effects so far as well, so you just get either "plays once" or "plays at random times" instead of, say, seamlessly looping music (like in creative mode" or a seamlessly looping hum near a nether portal. You can't even change the parameters of the events, such as how often events fire (such as "say" files), the ACTUAL pitch of sounds (some sounds have pitch variance even if you set pitch to 1.0), or set up alternate "group" sounds that play when too many sounds are overlapping. You also can't un-derive sound effects (like block-specific place/break noises instead of a generic material sound).
I personally wanted to have "elevator music" in the main menu that seamlessly looped, like, I'd love to have that. But, it's a randomly-fired event with no option to change it. I made villager "infect" and "unfect" sounds, but they're really long so when they change pitch (even though pitch is set to 1.0) it takes like 30 seconds to finish the sound, and it's so low of a pitch that it's unintelligible. Plus, sounds take up a lot of data, those are the reasons I didn't add more.
I wouldn't be surprised if this models thing gets added in the next snapshot and never changed much again. Just like how shaders aren't any more powerful yet, or even have a proper GUI (just "super secret settings" and random pitch-changed noises), how the sound issues aren't addressed, how strongholds don't have any new content (or even proper generation like what mineshafts sometimes do), how powered rails still aren't that good (especially in a game called minecraft, you'd think they might be a bit more important), how minecart-with-furnaces are still useless, how villagers are still incapable of surviving 1 night if you're around, and how black spots appear in world generation again...... Mojang has a bad case of ADD or a bad habit of leaving things out in the cold.
Also, Audacity. It needs to be a bit better, but I guess it's sort of more like a paint.net than a GIMP.
Further more, you can't fake sounds. You actually need to get the gun or the hammer or the baby lamb.
Nope. That's like saying you can't make wood textures without taking a picture. You can record slamming down a cup or even your own voice and then edit them to get them where you want. Changing pitch, modifying the waveform, and using filters/effects and you can get it close enough sounding to the object that you want. You also can make things without even recording something, just by generating a wave and then working with that.
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
Now apart from how this might break resource packs, how might it break minecraft building?
When I build something in minecraft, I expect it to be blocks plus blocks plus fancy stuff. If someone change the shape of blocks, it would ruin almost the entire game.
Though if someone changed the shape of flowers, it might look nice. And super fancy flower models would look out of place.
I wouldn't be surprised if this models thing gets added in the next snapshot and never changed much again. Just like how shaders aren't any more powerful yet, or even have a proper GUI (just "super secret settings" and random pitch-changed noises), how the sound issues aren't addressed, how strongholds don't have any new content (or even proper generation like what mineshafts sometimes do), how powered rails still aren't that good (especially in a game called minecraft, you'd think they might be a bit more important), how minecart-with-furnaces are still useless, how villagers are still incapable of surviving 1 night if you're around, and how black spots appear in world generation again...... Mojang has a bad case of ADD or a bad habit of leaving things out in the cold.
So... this will never become a thing because Mojang implements every cool thing they do really half arsed? OK, yea, I'll agree with this argument.
Everyone go back to making awesome textures now. Crisis averted!
Also, Audacity. It needs to be a bit better, but I guess it's sort of more like a paint.net than a GIMP.
Audacity is to ProTools what Microsoft Paint is the the entire lineup of Adobe graphics products plus Maya. At least that's what my friends in audio tell me.
With texture items as mario, I have had several times where I wanted to change the shape of blocks and how they rendered; although, I agree that super fancy models is a bad idea. Maybe if they only allowed rectangular solids and rotation it would work?
Oh my!
Ok. I know everyone is worried about fancy models, but before you complain, remember this:
1) You are entitled to NOT USE WHATEVER MODEL YOU DON'T WANT
2) If you want a texture pack but don't like the fancypants models, just delete the json file, or replace it w/ a custom one.
I have to agree that you're blowing it way, way, WAY out of proportion. If someone includes those obnoxious teakettle models or whatever, just either don't use the pack or delete the json file.
TL;DR - If you don't like it, don't use it. Complaining is just irritating and pointless.
Besides, I think that once people get the hang of it, we might see some truly great adventure maps, and even some spectacular texture packs. Yes, people might make ultra-hd packs with a million polygons, but that doesn't mean you have to use them.
Ok. I know everyone is worried about fancy models, but before you complain, remember this:
1) You are entitled to NOT USE WHATEVER MODEL YOU DON'T WANT
2) If you want a texture pack but don't like the fancypants models, just delete the json file, or replace it w/ a custom one.
I have to agree that you're blowing it way, way, WAY out of proportion. If someone includes those obnoxious teakettle models or whatever, just either don't use the pack or delete the json file.
TL;DR - If you don't like it, don't use it. Complaining is just irritating and pointless.
Besides, I think that once people get the hang of it, we might see some truly great adventure maps, and even some spectacular texture packs. Yes, people might make ultra-hd packs with a million polygons, but that doesn't mean you have to use them.
Now apart from how this might break resource packs, how might it break minecraft building?
When I build something in minecraft, I expect it to be blocks plus blocks plus fancy stuff. If someone change the shape of blocks, it would ruin almost the entire game.
Though if someone changed the shape of flowers, it might look nice. And super fancy flower models would look out of place.
I list my opinion on changing the rendering, there is not to much you can do without affecting minecraft gameplay, as you lose rendering of blocks and their hitboxes being the same.
If you check my second latest post on the topic:
I list my opinion on changing the rendering, there is not to much you can do without affecting minecraft gameplay, as you lose rendering of blocks and their hitboxes being the same.
So what you're really worried about is others using a texture pack with crazy models and it messing up your build? First off, people can do that anyways (think **** texturepacks) and also, that's what "official packs" and server textures are for. If other people want to be stupid, there's nothing anyone can do to stop. And if someone else is being an idiot, then you probably shouldn't be concerned about their opinions in the first place.
Audacity is to ProTools what Microsoft Paint is the the entire lineup of Adobe graphics products plus Maya. At least that's what my friends in audio tell me.
I've never heard of ProTools before, TBH. But I can pretty much say that comparing Paint to Maya isn't a fair or valid comparison, like trying to compare a chocolate cake to a semi truck (or even to a dirt bike, but cake sounds funnier).
Some people still say that GIMP isn't a good substitution for Photoshop, but having used PS for more than 5 years and now a user of GIMP, I can say that it is a very suitable replacement to PS especially considering it's free. The biggest downside is the steep learning curve, and the fact that you'll be doing things more manually. I think that once you learn how to use it, 90% of the stuff you can do in Photoshop you can easily do with GIMP (for the other 10%, wait for future versions of GIMP or find a plugin).
I stand by my comparison, that Audacity is more like paint.NET than GIMP. What I mean by that is the interface seems a little uninspired, quite a few tools are there and it's usable, but it just seems fairly basic and not very "powerful". Some basic stuff that allows you to do more seems like is missing. Plus, it's not very customizable or streamlined. Unlike paint.NET however, Audacity is multi-platform.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
My point is, requiring tools prevent a bunch of people from doing something. As the saying goes, "Default is king", kinda like how most people use the OS that's on their computer when they buy it.
There are people who don't use plugins, mods, or anything of the sort, maybe because they never even think you can do it. I bet there are people who don't use packs just because you have to download them.
So I think that even if there is a plugin for every 3D modelling program there is, a significant number of people (who would do it if they could just export a file) probably won't do anything with it.
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
Someone before said the shading wasn't working. This might be relevant:
[Bug MC-47492] – The Brightness.. or shading.. broken..
BTW, where did the giant teapot image come from anyway?
There are already people who won't use resource packs. But of those that do, the majority of people only use the most well-known ones. It's hard enough to make a pack and hope a few people will enjoy it in the current environment. It's already difficult to get a small-time pack to get even a few downloads... even if it's good.
Mod support complicates matters. Packs like Sphax are big partly because they have the mod support that people want. It's not easy for a single artist to pull that off. When dwarfed by the few mega-packs that are out there, a new pack artist is almost doomed to obscurity.
Now with the possibility of extensive detail created through modifying the block files, that divide is going to get even bigger. This is a vanilla feature, Insomniac. No mods required. Making a pack with the detail that people will desire in the models has just increased exponentially in difficulty in skill. If I had started my first pack yesterday, I'd completely give up today knowing that nobody would ever care about what I was doing because I could never compete with the spectacle that will soon be required to get noticed.
Whether or not this is good for the game... it's bad for the community.
If it were just a few tweaks, or changing the tops of the cactus, or offsetting a few blocks I would welcome it. I'd love it. I'd be praising it as the best thing ever!
But it's not just that. Once you can make a teapot by placing a flower there's no point in building anymore. No point in Minecraft. Just open up a modeler and make a giant Gundam... and then place it in-game. Boom. More detail than you could ever hope for with blocks.
A valid point. The difference is that with mods it required more technical skill. Once a modeler is made for this format, there will be a lot less skill required. Just look at how many mods started using custom-geometry blocks after Techne and Turbo Model Thingy were developed as opposed to before.
While I will concede that I'm almost certainly overreacting, I think the rest of you underestimate just how much this will change resource pack creation if it becomes an official feature in its current state.
And yes, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.
This thread on Reddit.
It was posted on Reddit, by someone names MrCheezeGo to page 3 and press ctrl+f, then type in flower. It will show the flower teapot post.
ninja'd by Alvoria
Oh, and Drazile, I knew they are entities, but I thought it would be neat to have
As for the concerns about resource packs without these fancy new models, we have seen similar changes in the way resource packs work. For example sounds have been added to resource packs and in my opinion I find that that is just as cool as this model feature. I don't download that many resource packs however when I do I don't expect them to be loaded with fancy sounds, the same is also true with animated item/block frames.
Much like the addition of sounds to resource packs I feel this change will be more common in the general public in the form of server/adventure map specific packs.
Farewell everyone o/
Of course... I'm also reminded that it's a lot easier to find free tools for graphics than it is for audio. GIMP and Paint.net make good substitutes for Photoshop. Not a lot of good substitutes for a full-on ProTools setup, a quality Mic, and a studio to record in.
Further more, you can't fake sounds. You actually need to get the gun or the hammer or the baby lamb.
If you do that for commercial purposes I think it breaches copyright.
I said it, and nope, that's the opposite of what I was trying to say. I WANTED to mimic that sort of effect.
I figured it out.
I had to turn ambient occlusion off in order for the block to use the "shade" values from the .JSON file.
My point is, this isn't exactly going to turn Minecraft into Garry's mod or SourceFilmMaker...... like I said, it could be worse, like supporting an actual 3D save format instead of .JSON files.
Good point. I thought about saying this earlier (I don't think I did), I could imagine a similar argument when the destitched-texture pack format came out, that Minecraft now "officially" supported HD textures, so now it's will make the game "less Minecraft-y" because now people can be vain and make/use uber-HD packs which goes against the original intention behind the game (use innovate ideas instead of eye-candy).
I think because it's like many things Mojang does, it gets a lot of attention at first, it gets worked on and an initial version is added, and then they stop working on it for the most part, (until later when they redo/replace it). The initial idea behind it was "the ability to add custom sound events, such as chirping birds in a sunny forest and crashing water near waterfalls" or something to that effect. However, this system they added DOESN'T allow adding new events, only changing existing ones. There are only "triggered" effects so far as well, so you just get either "plays once" or "plays at random times" instead of, say, seamlessly looping music (like in creative mode" or a seamlessly looping hum near a nether portal. You can't even change the parameters of the events, such as how often events fire (such as "say" files), the ACTUAL pitch of sounds (some sounds have pitch variance even if you set pitch to 1.0), or set up alternate "group" sounds that play when too many sounds are overlapping. You also can't un-derive sound effects (like block-specific place/break noises instead of a generic material sound).
I personally wanted to have "elevator music" in the main menu that seamlessly looped, like, I'd love to have that. But, it's a randomly-fired event with no option to change it. I made villager "infect" and "unfect" sounds, but they're really long so when they change pitch (even though pitch is set to 1.0) it takes like 30 seconds to finish the sound, and it's so low of a pitch that it's unintelligible. Plus, sounds take up a lot of data, those are the reasons I didn't add more.
I wouldn't be surprised if this models thing gets added in the next snapshot and never changed much again. Just like how shaders aren't any more powerful yet, or even have a proper GUI (just "super secret settings" and random pitch-changed noises), how the sound issues aren't addressed, how strongholds don't have any new content (or even proper generation like what mineshafts sometimes do), how powered rails still aren't that good (especially in a game called minecraft, you'd think they might be a bit more important), how minecart-with-furnaces are still useless, how villagers are still incapable of surviving 1 night if you're around, and how black spots appear in world generation again...... Mojang has a bad case of ADD or a bad habit of leaving things out in the cold.
Also, Audacity. It needs to be a bit better, but I guess it's sort of more like a paint.net than a GIMP.
Nope. That's like saying you can't make wood textures without taking a picture. You can record slamming down a cup or even your own voice and then edit them to get them where you want. Changing pitch, modifying the waveform, and using filters/effects and you can get it close enough sounding to the object that you want. You also can make things without even recording something, just by generating a wave and then working with that.
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
When I build something in minecraft, I expect it to be blocks plus blocks plus fancy stuff. If someone change the shape of blocks, it would ruin almost the entire game.
Though if someone changed the shape of flowers, it might look nice. And super fancy flower models would look out of place.
Everyone go back to making awesome textures now. Crisis averted!
Audacity is to ProTools what Microsoft Paint is the the entire lineup of Adobe graphics products plus Maya. At least that's what my friends in audio tell me.
• Follow Lithos on Twitter for release announcments
* Join the Lithos Discord for previews and to help
Ok. I know everyone is worried about fancy models, but before you complain, remember this:
1) You are entitled to NOT USE WHATEVER MODEL YOU DON'T WANT
2) If you want a texture pack but don't like the fancypants models, just delete the json file, or replace it w/ a custom one.
I have to agree that you're blowing it way, way, WAY out of proportion. If someone includes those obnoxious teakettle models or whatever, just either don't use the pack or delete the json file.
TL;DR - If you don't like it, don't use it. Complaining is just irritating and pointless.
Besides, I think that once people get the hang of it, we might see some truly great adventure maps, and even some spectacular texture packs. Yes, people might make ultra-hd packs with a million polygons, but that doesn't mean you have to use them.
Awesome Minecraft mod! clicky!
If you check my second latest post on the topic:
So what you're really worried about is others using a texture pack with crazy models and it messing up your build? First off, people can do that anyways (think **** texturepacks) and also, that's what "official packs" and server textures are for. If other people want to be stupid, there's nothing anyone can do to stop. And if someone else is being an idiot, then you probably shouldn't be concerned about their opinions in the first place.
(then again, I was mostly talking to Alvoria)
Awesome Minecraft mod! clicky!
Exactly!
I've never heard of ProTools before, TBH. But I can pretty much say that comparing Paint to Maya isn't a fair or valid comparison, like trying to compare a chocolate cake to a semi truck (or even to a dirt bike, but cake sounds funnier).
Some people still say that GIMP isn't a good substitution for Photoshop, but having used PS for more than 5 years and now a user of GIMP, I can say that it is a very suitable replacement to PS especially considering it's free. The biggest downside is the steep learning curve, and the fact that you'll be doing things more manually. I think that once you learn how to use it, 90% of the stuff you can do in Photoshop you can easily do with GIMP (for the other 10%, wait for future versions of GIMP or find a plugin).
I stand by my comparison, that Audacity is more like paint.NET than GIMP. What I mean by that is the interface seems a little uninspired, quite a few tools are there and it's usable, but it just seems fairly basic and not very "powerful". Some basic stuff that allows you to do more seems like is missing. Plus, it's not very customizable or streamlined. Unlike paint.NET however, Audacity is multi-platform.
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin