I'll admit, I'm really not. I helped a friend set up an IRC server one time, and that was about all I've ever done with it. Sorry for showing my ignorance.
Regardless, if you need a place to contact us, we're always here even if we're not anywhere else.
I'll admit, I'm really not. I helped a friend set up an IRC server one time, and that was about all I've ever done with it. Sorry for showing my ignorance.
It's not really that hard to do, at least nowadays. I just downloaded a free firefox extension and found the channel, all in less than two minutes.
A bit overkill perhaps, but appreciated none the less.
I can see where you're coming from with the overkill bit however it's not all the much extra effort to provide a zip file containing a layout of the textures and model textures in their original non edited texture map files. I will likely just make a test version of this for my teams Modjam3 submission.
Not to kill the good will being developed but... are you all really going to be comfortable if a bunch of artists start moving in and posting a bunch of links to the textures they're working on? Just saying, it'd be a bit of a culture shift seeing a bunch of stuff that's not immediately relevant to you all.
Not entirely sure what you mean by this however most mod authors are more flexible and understanding then we are made out to be. A lot of us actually have a fairly extensive understanding of how the texture system works however we generally think of things from a developer standpoint meaning that things such as resource pack support hardly crosses our minds when making our mods. That being said as our two group do grow closer that will definitely change. I think this will be an easy transition as it has already caught the attention of some of the most reputable characters of both sides. From what I know from the community all it takes is a few people to start a trend and then the patterns will form.
As for the thread I am going to be sharing this with a few people I know and shall be following the discussion closely.
I can see where you're coming from with the overkill bit however it's not all the much extra effort to provide a zip file containing a layout of the textures and model textures in their original non edited texture map files. I will likely just make a test version of this for my teams Modjam3 submission.
Fair enough. I hope it works out well for all involved.
Not entirely sure what you mean by this however most mod authors are more flexible and understanding then we are made out to be.
This was partly due to my lack of understanding about how IRC works. I haven't used it much, and through that everything was all in one big chat. As iPixeli pointed out, this is not the case. I just didn't want anyone getting ticked when I came around asking for feedback on a texture I'm working on, but apparently none of the modders would even see that unless they were in the texture makers channel anyway so... that's not actually a problem at all.
A lot of us actually have a fairly extensive understanding of how the texture system works however we generally think of things from a developer standpoint meaning that things such as resource pack support hardly crosses our minds when making our mods. That being said as our two group do grow closer that will definitely change. I think this will be an easy transition as it has already caught the attention of some of the most reputable characters of both sides. From what I know from the community all it takes is a few people to start a trend and then the patterns will form.
This is going to be a rocky road, I think, but I agree that it can work if we collectively want it to.
If we were to establish a central place to congregate mod artists, a thread or forum may be a better medium than an IRC. This would allow Q/A and requests to be archived and for questions to remain visible for those who aren't as active or remain offline most of the time. EDIT: Thumbs up for Samohtj, the thread is a better visual medium as well.
Pretty much every IRC client out there logs everything.
I understand the visual medium part, however I personally love IRC because response time is pretty immediate due to being an instant message type of communication vs a post based means of communication.
I've found that the chat may move fast and more work/play/chatter happens because of it.
Just to be sure I understand the purpose of this group, we are hoping to provide a mod themed location where texture artists can ask texture related questions and mod authors can commission and acquire textures for their mods?
Mostly just to know whats going on in the community, make connections with people, and to have your name known by simply being there and showing your work. When in proper channels a lot of constructive feedback can be found on IRC.
You'd be surprised what can come of it
I know this has been touched on, but I just want to clarify:
13) Don't overcomplicate models for mobs etc. if you want people to easily be able to make textures for them. While detailed models can look awesome, they really limit the amount of creativity that can be used.
You can post direct image links in the chat channels, naturally, so the only real difference between posting work on there and posting work in a forum thread would be one extra click. And, you probably won't have to wait hours/days for someone to see what you posted and think of something to say about it, like you so often do on forum threads.
And yes, I know I'm contradicting the argument I was making a minute ago.
And, you probably won't have to wait hours/days for someone to see what you posted and think of something to say about it, like you so often do on forum threads.
Why do you think that? I thought we established that few people ever went on that channel.
I really don't see IRC becoming a more popular place for artists to hang out. I used to use it extensively when I worked on Battle for Wesnoth. But when I did stuff of interest mainly to art devs, we used the forums. One more click per image adds up, and if you are going to comment on it, read other responses to it, and refer back to it to see if you agree, (a common scenario) you need to switch back and forth between windows. Not an impossibility, but a distinctly less convenint experience, when images are core to the conversation.
Why do you think that? I thought we established that few people ever went on that channel.
I really don't see IRC becoming a more popular place for artists to hang out. I used to use it extensively when I worked on Battle for Wesnoth. But when I did stuff of interest mainly to art devs, we used the forums. One more click per image adds up, and if you are going to comment on it, read other responses to it, and refer back to it to see if you agree, (a common scenario) you need to switch back and forth between windows. Not an impossibility, but a distinctly less convenint experience, when images are core to the conversation.
Re: IRC and #TAU. Maybe it would be worthwhile if someone wrote up a quick bot that follows the TAU thread here, and posts updates to the IRC channel? That would definitely "bridge the gap"
Why do you think that? I thought we established that few people ever went on that channel.
I really don't see IRC becoming a more popular place for artists to hang out. I used to use it extensively when I worked on Battle for Wesnoth. But when I did stuff of interest mainly to art devs, we used the forums. One more click per image adds up, and if you are going to comment on it, read other responses to it, and refer back to it to see if you agree, (a common scenario) you need to switch back and forth between windows. Not an impossibility, but a distinctly less convenint experience, when images are core to the conversation.
That was me hypothesizing what it would be like if everyone suddenly started using IRC. Though you are right, it's a lot smoother to just post in the forum, I was considering that people would see messages in the IRC channel a lot faster than they see messages in the forum topic. However, that isn't a real selling point since anyone who follows the forum thread gets email updates whenever someone posts.
Yeah forums are a very convinient place to post when you are looking for feedback on textures, however if a thread gets to big the post can fall off a page to quickly or be the last post on a page since most people don't read the last post on a page, which causes feedback o be missed.
I don't think I've ever gotten any feedback from any texture pack creator about "things they'd like to see change to make texture packs better". It would certainly be helpful since we modders don't really see that side of the equation.
My previous experience with modders is similar to Alvoria. I posted a screenshot and brief notification on about 5 mod's topics that i'd added support for them. Most of these were mods of moderate to lesser fame, so it's not like getting included in a texture pack would be old hat to them. I got absolutely no response from any except Poersch of Better Grass and Leaves (who i would point to as a great example of a modded engaging with texture artists). So i quit notifying the mod-makers after that. Obviously those participating in this thread have a different opinion, but it seems that most mod makers are entirely indifferent to texture pack artists. Of course that is their right.
But that gives those of you modders who do care an opportunity. You can stand out and attract texture-pack support by showing that you are not indifferent. Having a spoiler on your main post with info for texture pack artists is one way. But an even more powerful statement is to link to texture packs that support your mod, and to solicit more packs.
@CovertJaguar: I really appreciate how you overlay ore textures over the vanilla stone, it's something small but very considerate.
That is a huge way to make a mod texture-pack friendly. It's not so much about saving artist's work, but improving the appearance of the ore blocks- when the player uses a texture pack that doesn't have support for the mod.
what a great thread that seems more like a place to complain XD
I'll leave saying that as long as the texture artist knows what he's doing, he'll be fine. I had someone once give me a 200x326 texture of a poorly drawn soup hoping that it'd be a good texture for a mod. Face it texture artists, the feeling is mutual.
what a great thread that seems more like a place to complain XD
We had a nice discussion going here. There's a different between legitimate desire to see something improved and just complaining. Please don't poke the bear.
I'll leave saying that as long as the texture artist knows what he's doing, he'll be fine.
Probably true, but having texture-friendly mods is better for both parties. It's the difference between surviving and really living. Between just doing something, and doing something well.
I had someone once give me a 200x326 texture of a poorly drawn soup hoping that it'd be a good texture for a mod. Face it texture artists, the feeling is mutual.
Obviously that person wasn't a texture artist (or at least not a Minecraft texture artist) or he would have known better on the resolution. Judging us by that standard is a little bit unfair, don't you think?
But your "the feeling is mutual" point intrigues me. Issues of basic competency aside, what do mod makers wish resource pack artists knew?
Your grass feels very flat. The colors are WAY over saturated to the point of being nearly eye-gouging. You could also use some shading under the grass to set it apart from the dirt and make it a little more 3d. Give it some depth, you know. The dirt also has very definite shapes that will no doubt stick out like a sore thumb when it tiles horizontally.
Wow, way to dissect and destroy my simple assertion XD
I'm so happy argumentative forums exist.
As opposed to what? Not addressing what you have you say? You brought a position and I disagreed with it. More to the point, I spelled out why I disagreed with it. I suggest you make peace with the idea that if you post an opinion on the internet your position may be challenged. Discussion is the nature of an open forum, sir. If you have something to say in defense of your simple assertion, please say it. Otherwise, kindly don't try to call me out on my choosing to analyze it.
If I may chip in here. I agree with all views and as a texture artist I do wish Modders took into account that people may want to make textures for their packs and make it a bit easier for us to offer such.
One of my biggest erks is when modders make a change, either add or remove something, and don't state such, or that file_x.png is now file_q.png As stated before, it can be hard enough to sort through all the textures and try and sort out what may go to what, it's more so frustrating when changes are made that are not fully noted. Worse when they chose to change something, but keep the same file name for the texture, so it looks out of place or just wrong.
Then there are other packs that have flat colors for their mod textures and you look at the texture and it's fully solid in color with a few pixels bits, so you have to scratch your head trying to sort out -where- the texture really is on this thing.
My biggest issue however... comes when there are mods that are just very over complex in how they did the textures.
I have to say I have a nice sized list of mods I am adding either full or partial support for... the biggest one I've been dieing to do that I am finding to be mind numbingly tedious is sadly Tinkers Construct. (just the base, not the addons)
The following is a bit of a rant on the mod, but it is a baring issue and can be applied to any mod that starts getting a bit over complex like this in how it is applying textures. TC just happens to be a very fine example to use.
For those who don't know or never played it, the mod allows you to put parts together made of different materials and properties to make tools with verious stats, durabilities and effects . So instead of say textureing a whole pickaxe, you have to texture each piece individually, while keeping in mind that each of these peaces have to be able to work with -every- other tool material as you can mix and match them all.
For example, each pickaxe has 4 pieces. The pick head, the stick/rod, the binding, and a 'broken' head. Now on top of that you have addon bonus's that add a texture to the tool, like moss for repair, diamond tips for mining harder blocks, etc. So every texture you make, for every tool, has to be able to over lap and 'fit together' with each other. There's no making one material unique, in size or shape, ir having it aligned on the texture in its own way, as it then may not work when you mix it with something else.
Pretty much, there all going to be a blatant recolor of each other as the way the peices have to fit together leaves little room to really make anything look unique, aside maybe how you shade some things. This is def a mod that could have worked well with just having the base pick parts be grayscale and just change color in game based on what mat you used, then have the 'addons' be their own texture.
That's just for picks as well, some tools have NINE parts to them, per mat... that can be mixed and matched, that then have to mix and match with -everything- else, PLUS the 'addons' for the tools..
In the Yogcasts recent Moonquest play through, in early eps you can see how messed up one of the cleavers looked when they had a bad mix mash of textures that didn't fit together.
Now here's the iffy part...
In away with how this mod has done it's tools... is really making me ponder if I really want to do this anymore for this mod. Yes it is a bunch of recolors, but even that is taking time... but in the end... it kinda would have been nice to just have it be grayscale and move on.
TC really is a nice example of a mod that could have been pulled off better in the means of textureing. It even could have had some verity in shape and design for the same tool if it says 'these mats pull these textures, this other mats pull these." and so on. So mat A,B,C, D, E, F pull from texture 1, G,H,I,J,K, pull from texture 2.. etc.
At times, mods like these make me question adding mod support, as the mods are more complex then our packs themselvs.
To give you an over view of just bhow crazy this is... TC has 2,982 image files, in ITEMS alone where all the tools are held. That is over double that of ALL the default textures for blocks, items, mobs, ui, etc in all of minecraft, totaling at 1,046 as of the last snap shot.
A lot of that is due to that each tool has a lot of the same parts, but rather than reusing the assets from say one tools rod/handle, each tool has its own copy. I took the time and counted each tools parts, only counting dups one time, if this mod had tools grayscale and only had one set of these duped parts, it would drop down to 78 files, vs nearly 3k. Even then that could be dropped further as some tools are just 'joined' maulty tools, like a axe/spade that could be set to over lap the textures for the spade and axe, rather than needing it's own.
Don't get me wrong, TC is amazing and I highly enjoy it to no end, and thats why I want to add texture support, but just looking at all that makes my hand cramp.
Now the mod may look cool and some how working with everything to make some nice looking tools could be a pain, how many here would really sit down and try to make support for a mod with -this- many textures, even if much of them need to be the same shape at least so they 'fit together'?
I can see a lot of texture artists turning away just seeing the shear number of textures that need to be done and the whole making sure they each fit together... and sadly... I... might be one of them. I had no idea that it had this much when I planed to add support for it
So if someone was to make a better texture API what would you guys what it to do? or be in it?
I'm not sure that a better texture API is strictly necessary. If one is developed, the main goal of it should basically be to make sure that MCPatcher's features can be used with mod-added blocks/items/guis/etc. Don't make the mistake of trying to overtake or replace MCPatcher. That's not going to work. Just try to work with the mods and consult with Kahr on how to get MCPatcher's features to work more universally with Forge.
That's my suggestion: Don't bother... or work on compatibility with the "industry standard" for texture mods.
Or if you wanted modders to have specific ways to add textures, what would they be?
All of the best practices are outlined on the first page. I suggest you read them, because they're all good suggestions. If you have any questions about an individual point, please feel free to ask. Really just doing these relatively simple things when implementing your graphics will go a LONG way to making your mod easier to texture.
Regardless, if you need a place to contact us, we're always here even if we're not anywhere else.
Also...
↑ This. Especially the "visual medium" part.
It's not really that hard to do, at least nowadays. I just downloaded a free firefox extension and found the channel, all in less than two minutes.
I can see where you're coming from with the overkill bit however it's not all the much extra effort to provide a zip file containing a layout of the textures and model textures in their original non edited texture map files. I will likely just make a test version of this for my teams Modjam3 submission.
Not entirely sure what you mean by this however most mod authors are more flexible and understanding then we are made out to be. A lot of us actually have a fairly extensive understanding of how the texture system works however we generally think of things from a developer standpoint meaning that things such as resource pack support hardly crosses our minds when making our mods. That being said as our two group do grow closer that will definitely change. I think this will be an easy transition as it has already caught the attention of some of the most reputable characters of both sides. From what I know from the community all it takes is a few people to start a trend and then the patterns will form.
As for the thread I am going to be sharing this with a few people I know and shall be following the discussion closely.
Farewell everyone o/
This was partly due to my lack of understanding about how IRC works. I haven't used it much, and through that everything was all in one big chat. As iPixeli pointed out, this is not the case. I just didn't want anyone getting ticked when I came around asking for feedback on a texture I'm working on, but apparently none of the modders would even see that unless they were in the texture makers channel anyway so... that's not actually a problem at all.
This is going to be a rocky road, I think, but I agree that it can work if we collectively want it to.
Thank you on both counts.
Care to share the knowledge? Even if I don't end up using it, I'm always keen to hear about a good Firefox extension.
I understand the visual medium part, however I personally love IRC because response time is pretty immediate due to being an instant message type of communication vs a post based means of communication.
I've found that the chat may move fast and more work/play/chatter happens because of it.
Mostly just to know whats going on in the community, make connections with people, and to have your name known by simply being there and showing your work. When in proper channels a lot of constructive feedback can be found on IRC.
You'd be surprised what can come of it
Twitter: @iPixeliMC
13) Don't overcomplicate models for mobs etc. if you want people to easily be able to make textures for them. While detailed models can look awesome, they really limit the amount of creativity that can be used.
Here's the extension. The TAU channel is on esper.net (pick the server that is closest to you).
You can post direct image links in the chat channels, naturally, so the only real difference between posting work on there and posting work in a forum thread would be one extra click. And, you probably won't have to wait hours/days for someone to see what you posted and think of something to say about it, like you so often do on forum threads.
And yes, I know I'm contradicting the argument I was making a minute ago.
Why do you think that? I thought we established that few people ever went on that channel.
I really don't see IRC becoming a more popular place for artists to hang out. I used to use it extensively when I worked on Battle for Wesnoth. But when I did stuff of interest mainly to art devs, we used the forums. One more click per image adds up, and if you are going to comment on it, read other responses to it, and refer back to it to see if you agree, (a common scenario) you need to switch back and forth between windows. Not an impossibility, but a distinctly less convenint experience, when images are core to the conversation.
• Follow Lithos on Twitter for release announcments
* Join the Lithos Discord for previews and to help
Re: IRC and #TAU. Maybe it would be worthwhile if someone wrote up a quick bot that follows the TAU thread here, and posts updates to the IRC channel? That would definitely "bridge the gap"
That was me hypothesizing what it would be like if everyone suddenly started using IRC. Though you are right, it's a lot smoother to just post in the forum, I was considering that people would see messages in the IRC channel a lot faster than they see messages in the forum topic. However, that isn't a real selling point since anyone who follows the forum thread gets email updates whenever someone posts.
My previous experience with modders is similar to Alvoria. I posted a screenshot and brief notification on about 5 mod's topics that i'd added support for them. Most of these were mods of moderate to lesser fame, so it's not like getting included in a texture pack would be old hat to them. I got absolutely no response from any except Poersch of Better Grass and Leaves (who i would point to as a great example of a modded engaging with texture artists). So i quit notifying the mod-makers after that. Obviously those participating in this thread have a different opinion, but it seems that most mod makers are entirely indifferent to texture pack artists. Of course that is their right.
But that gives those of you modders who do care an opportunity. You can stand out and attract texture-pack support by showing that you are not indifferent. Having a spoiler on your main post with info for texture pack artists is one way. But an even more powerful statement is to link to texture packs that support your mod, and to solicit more packs.
That is a huge way to make a mod texture-pack friendly. It's not so much about saving artist's work, but improving the appearance of the ore blocks- when the player uses a texture pack that doesn't have support for the mod.
• Follow Lithos on Twitter for release announcments
* Join the Lithos Discord for previews and to help
I'll leave saying that as long as the texture artist knows what he's doing, he'll be fine. I had someone once give me a 200x326 texture of a poorly drawn soup hoping that it'd be a good texture for a mod. Face it texture artists, the feeling is mutual.
http://prntscr.com/2nse8h
I'm not that bad of a texture artist either so yeh...
Probably true, but having texture-friendly mods is better for both parties. It's the difference between surviving and really living. Between just doing something, and doing something well.
Obviously that person wasn't a texture artist (or at least not a Minecraft texture artist) or he would have known better on the resolution. Judging us by that standard is a little bit unfair, don't you think?
But your "the feeling is mutual" point intrigues me. Issues of basic competency aside, what do mod makers wish resource pack artists knew?
Your grass feels very flat. The colors are WAY over saturated to the point of being nearly eye-gouging. You could also use some shading under the grass to set it apart from the dirt and make it a little more 3d. Give it some depth, you know. The dirt also has very definite shapes that will no doubt stick out like a sore thumb when it tiles horizontally.
Bad? No. Good? Even less so.
I'm so happy argumentative forums exist.
One of my biggest erks is when modders make a change, either add or remove something, and don't state such, or that file_x.png is now file_q.png As stated before, it can be hard enough to sort through all the textures and try and sort out what may go to what, it's more so frustrating when changes are made that are not fully noted. Worse when they chose to change something, but keep the same file name for the texture, so it looks out of place or just wrong.
Then there are other packs that have flat colors for their mod textures and you look at the texture and it's fully solid in color with a few pixels bits, so you have to scratch your head trying to sort out -where- the texture really is on this thing.
My biggest issue however... comes when there are mods that are just very over complex in how they did the textures.
I have to say I have a nice sized list of mods I am adding either full or partial support for... the biggest one I've been dieing to do that I am finding to be mind numbingly tedious is sadly Tinkers Construct. (just the base, not the addons)
The following is a bit of a rant on the mod, but it is a baring issue and can be applied to any mod that starts getting a bit over complex like this in how it is applying textures. TC just happens to be a very fine example to use.
For those who don't know or never played it, the mod allows you to put parts together made of different materials and properties to make tools with verious stats, durabilities and effects . So instead of say textureing a whole pickaxe, you have to texture each piece individually, while keeping in mind that each of these peaces have to be able to work with -every- other tool material as you can mix and match them all.
For example, each pickaxe has 4 pieces. The pick head, the stick/rod, the binding, and a 'broken' head. Now on top of that you have addon bonus's that add a texture to the tool, like moss for repair, diamond tips for mining harder blocks, etc. So every texture you make, for every tool, has to be able to over lap and 'fit together' with each other. There's no making one material unique, in size or shape, ir having it aligned on the texture in its own way, as it then may not work when you mix it with something else.
Picks alone have 99 files...
My progress thus far
http://images.devs-on.net/Image/WTteKygsLWSVH1mK-Region.png
Pretty much, there all going to be a blatant recolor of each other as the way the peices have to fit together leaves little room to really make anything look unique, aside maybe how you shade some things. This is def a mod that could have worked well with just having the base pick parts be grayscale and just change color in game based on what mat you used, then have the 'addons' be their own texture.
That's just for picks as well, some tools have NINE parts to them, per mat... that can be mixed and matched, that then have to mix and match with -everything- else, PLUS the 'addons' for the tools..
In the Yogcasts recent Moonquest play through, in early eps you can see how messed up one of the cleavers looked when they had a bad mix mash of textures that didn't fit together.
Now here's the iffy part...
In away with how this mod has done it's tools... is really making me ponder if I really want to do this anymore for this mod. Yes it is a bunch of recolors, but even that is taking time... but in the end... it kinda would have been nice to just have it be grayscale and move on.
TC really is a nice example of a mod that could have been pulled off better in the means of textureing. It even could have had some verity in shape and design for the same tool if it says 'these mats pull these textures, this other mats pull these." and so on. So mat A,B,C, D, E, F pull from texture 1, G,H,I,J,K, pull from texture 2.. etc.
At times, mods like these make me question adding mod support, as the mods are more complex then our packs themselvs.
To give you an over view of just bhow crazy this is... TC has 2,982 image files, in ITEMS alone where all the tools are held. That is over double that of ALL the default textures for blocks, items, mobs, ui, etc in all of minecraft, totaling at 1,046 as of the last snap shot.
A lot of that is due to that each tool has a lot of the same parts, but rather than reusing the assets from say one tools rod/handle, each tool has its own copy. I took the time and counted each tools parts, only counting dups one time, if this mod had tools grayscale and only had one set of these duped parts, it would drop down to 78 files, vs nearly 3k. Even then that could be dropped further as some tools are just 'joined' maulty tools, like a axe/spade that could be set to over lap the textures for the spade and axe, rather than needing it's own.
Don't get me wrong, TC is amazing and I highly enjoy it to no end, and thats why I want to add texture support, but just looking at all that makes my hand cramp.
Now the mod may look cool and some how working with everything to make some nice looking tools could be a pain, how many here would really sit down and try to make support for a mod with -this- many textures, even if much of them need to be the same shape at least so they 'fit together'?
I can see a lot of texture artists turning away just seeing the shear number of textures that need to be done and the whole making sure they each fit together... and sadly... I... might be one of them. I had no idea that it had this much when I planed to add support for it
That's my suggestion: Don't bother... or work on compatibility with the "industry standard" for texture mods.
All of the best practices are outlined on the first page. I suggest you read them, because they're all good suggestions. If you have any questions about an individual point, please feel free to ask. Really just doing these relatively simple things when implementing your graphics will go a LONG way to making your mod easier to texture.