Hello Glimmar and company, first I have to say that I love this texture, it's the oly one I use.
I have a HUGE problem with rain though... It appears kind of weird: http://s85.photobuck...t=Imagen4-2.png
It seems that it says missing, but the rain it's not missing, it's there in the enviroment folder.
Is there a way to fix this? I've already patched it for HD textures, I'm playing on a Mac and the Minecraft version is 1.7.2.
I also have this weird problem, it appears to be only on old computers, but an easy fix is to save and quit to title or disconnect, and then click on mods and texture packs, switch to the default textures and then switch back to glimmars texture pack.
Back to talking about the glitch, I've used Misa's texture pack and this never happens to the rain, so I have no idea what's up.
AAGGGHH!!! I was working on a Steam Fortress and placing TNT crates in my ammo room when I hit the door button and blew 5 hours of work away. Sorry about this but I had to vent my rage somewhere...
this is a really cool texture pack, any chance of you making a 128x version?
Not a chance. Glimmar has stated multiple times that he doesn't like the higher resolutions, as they have a tendency to tile poorly, whereas lower resolution just doesn't have enough space to do much of anything. That's why he uses the 32x. There may be a chance that he'll let someone else make a higher res version (he already allowed someone to make a 16x version). However, make sure that you ask first: otherwise, he WILL report you for breaking forum rules.
Okay I found the link to Xtream art for 1.7 1 page back from the newest and with the artwork was able to finish my Land Leviathan (not Levitation)! Here are some screenshots, but I'm not sure if I liked the way it turned out... It's a bit cluttered and the drill arms ended up too small to make properly. Top View. Note the crab-like shape.
Another little thing I made that could be seen in the background of the other shots. It's a personal walker.
I like the top view the best, Squid, and like Sheep love the personal 'walker', similarly I need to do something like that in my world too. Nice work all round.
Wow! Thanks Sheep! I'm working on a (steam) power station now to better use the pistons with a redstone clock!
Inbetween looking after my wife and purposefully avoiding the forums so that I wouldn't get 'sucked in', I fiddled with my new redstone wiring (sorry I haven't uploaded it yet!), pistons and repeaters, etc. to make some kind of random 'difference engine' in one of my Grand Terminus rooms.
Not knowing anything about the complexities of circuits, etc. like you experts, I stumbled across a weird machine design that randomly starts up and looks like it's doing something sophisticated and purposeful and then stops, then goes through a similar burst of random working (redstone lights flashing, pistons hammering, etc.). All in all, very disconcerting loud, mysterious and unplanned and doesn't require any further intervention from me. It's wonderful to stumble upon when wandering around...but totally useless! :smile.gif:
I've figured out how to repeat the machine on a larger scale and think it would look wonderful in the middle of an epic Steampunk vehicle or factory setting. I just need to make a little movie of it to show it off and see what you think. Most of you will figure exactly what's going on and be able to explain it to me, but what I think is great, is the way it's possible to muck about with Minecraft in this totally random creative way. Like photography (one of my other passions) you never quite know what you're going to get with continuous surprises round the corner.
I mentioned it above, Reaper, and meant to put a notice in my OP, but with family circumstances I just haven't had time to make more of it. Thanks for mentioning it again and I really hope you folk do manage to make something, though I can't expect you to do it with my textures, so I won't take offence...just have fun and if you've got something stored away in your Minecraft closet, now is the time to put it to good use.
Dont worry about it, you really didnt have to write all of that :tongue.gif: just wanted to get the full experience of this great pack and wasnt sure if something was wrong with my patcher, but i checked and it seems to be flowing fine :)Thanks for the help though, i think ill leave the water how it is, it just seems to fit in with the pack so well :smile.gif:
Well I'm glad your happy with it for now, thanks mate. :smile.gif:
I've only been back for a two days, but I've been busy. I have a new world, house, 9 dogs, a hidden torture chamber, and a tower I am yet to do anything with. I'll post pictures tomorrow, then take another 1 month hiatus to go volunteer in the Dominican Republic. It's great to see all the progress going on here and that Glimmar is still doing the minecraft community the huge huge blessing he's been doing for almost a year now.
Thanks, ssaint. :smile.gif:
Sounds like you never stop...either in Minecraft or the real world! Best wishes for your volunteer work in the Dominican Rebuplic and take care.
My god man. I go away for a bit and your up to 300 pages already. amazing =)ya im still around. my last machine died a horrible death, taking much of my work with it. add to that a few months living abroad, and just now settling down. I'm rebuilding my cpu project again, and maybe get back into a bit of modding *nudge nudge, wink wink*a little teaser of the Ironworks:this is quite a condensed version of what I had in the first incarnation. This is based on the popular "Hack" platform most people are emulating. You are looking side on at the ALU, inputs at the left (2 layers, 16 bits each) with inverter/zero circuits attached to a bank of full adders. that is pretty much the entire arithmetic unit...needs much more work like registers, control logic, program counter, memory...all in good time =)
MaudDib my good friend!! So glad you are back and well. :smile.gif:
I'm absent for a few days and I get all sorts of surprises when I pop in!
Everyone was worried about you and sad that circumstances had stopped you (or your computer!)in your tracks. As I'm sure you already know, Pchan3 kept your steamboat going and it's as popular as ever and still bears your name.
I missed your input particularly and now look forward to seeing what you come up with. My only frustration now being that over the summer months my time for Minecraft will dwindle with work and family commitments. I'm particularly worried about the timing of the 1.8 Minecraft Update and if it will come just when I'm away. :sad.gif:
I love the 'Ironworks' teaser, and still have the spectacular original on display in my OP! :biggrin.gif:
Hi im thinking on making a fallout map and I want to put it for other people to play so im asking you permission to use itplus if you guys want to help me out there are a few things I would like to change to make it more falloutish Great texture pack thanks in advance.
By all means, this is what the textures are for, but thank you for asking. :smile.gif: A little mention as to where the textures came from would be excellent. Let us know when it's ready and maybe I can link to it in my OP. Good luck. :smile.gif:
Hello Glimmar and company, first I have to say that I love this texture, it's the oly one I use. :)I have a HUGE problem with rain though... It appears kind of weird: http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/Eddyrockr/?action=view¤t=Imagen4-2.pngIt seems that it says missing, but the rain it's not missing, it's there in the enviroment folder.Is there a way to fix this? I've already patched it for HD textures, I'm playing on a Mac and the Minecraft version is 1.7.2.
Not sure what's going on with this one or the animated files not showing for certain people. I have had a couple tell me the same about Mythos. I tested both Glimm's and mine a ton after 1.7.2...like I always do, to check for errors that need to be caught right away. I found none. I even tried to do the fresh install, patch, and play thing on both....but everything still looks good.I'm wondering if it's these triple updates messing with the .jar and patcher too much for everyone to keep up lately. Because it's only a select few that are affected this way.
I also have this weird problem, it appears to be only on old computers, but an easy fix is to save and quit to title or disconnect, and then click on mods and texture packs, switch to the default textures and then switch back to glimmars texture pack.Back to talking about the glitch, I've used Misa's texture pack and this never happens to the rain, so I have no idea what's up.
That's a weird one indeed, but I've never experienced it myself. I've read the other posts, but two things occured to me, 1. operating system (when you mentioned older computers) and 2. the fact that my rain is a different resolution to the original, but so is Misa's and many others and MinahCraftah hasn't had a problem with her pack. However, mine is a combination of mostly 32x textures, but some 64x and 128x...so whether that has any effect I'm not sure. The fact that it can be sorted by switching to another pack, then back again might mean something to do with the patcher or the texture pack selector. As you can see I have no definitive answer, but I hope you find a solution as rain is wonderfully atmospheric. :sad.gif:
This also reminds me I need to edit the snow texture sometime. I don't build in snow biomes, so I'm not constantly confronted with the default falling snow texture...sorry!
AAGGGHH!!! I was working on a Steam Fortress and placing TNT crates in my ammo room when I hit the door button and blew 5 hours of work away. Sorry about this but I had to vent my rage somewhere...
Yes it's all changed with the 1.7 update hasn't it. How frustrating! :sad.gif: I wonder how many others have been caught out the same way? Probably more with my pack than many others, because i try to make more blocks cosmetically useful as props than their originally intended purpose.
XDI do remember how yougscasts were scared of your zombies.One of the best texturepacks ever!
Thanks, MineCith. :smile.gif: So long as you forget the crotchless leather armor bit!! :biggrin.gif: Actually that was a classic piece of Yogcast comedy and one of my favourite bits. Perhaps i should make my current HD armor crotchless too! Ha ha. :biggrin.gif:
Got to play a bit today. I LOVE THE NEW GLOWSTONE!! Simply my favorite thing to look at in all of MC now...
Glad you like 'em Faust. :smile.gif:
That's one of the alternates too...I think I like it better than the one I chose for default. When strung together I think they're more useful than my previous glowstone, because they look more convincing as wrought iron grating for structural purposes rather than just windows and lanterns. They're also more symetrical and that helps them to tile better.
hey glimmar!i like the new armor,but i have a idea!(something to do with your pumkins and your armor)i tried the armor and a placed a pumkin on my head and i got a idea!(wear pumkins,it gives you ideas)heres the idea: make the gold armor match the pumkin's color so the armor looks like a diving suite.sorry if there are some typos.... this was a late night post
Inspiration often strikes in the wee small hours. :smile.gif:
That's an excellent idea, Tlos, and gives more of a useful purpose to both the gold armor and the pumpkin diving helm and a nice direction to take that armor type in to make it more distinctive from the others. I'll probably change both textures to better match each other and try and make the armor helmet a 'land' variation. So, lots to think about there...especially as I don't want to lose the 'railway lantern' ambiguity of the present pumpkin texture. :smile.gif:
this is a really cool texture pack, any chance of you making a 128x version?
As ksheep has accurately stated, it would be very unlikely. Not because I'm against higher textures necessarily (though I do think tiling kind of reaches it's effective limit at 64x until Notch changes how tiles are displayed in the distance that is), but to be honest, I just don't have time to support more than one texture pack and I struggle to keep up with this one, especially at this time of year. :sad.gif:
I'd love to have the time to see what I could do at 64x, but I've got so used to squeezing the best I can out of 32x32 pixels now, I'd probably not cope with all those extra pixels. :biggrin.gif:
You've probably already noticed that many of the other textures like the armor, the character and my steamwolf are already greater than 32x...so you could say I'm keeping my options open, just incase I win the lottery, can retire and create textures for Minecraft full time. Lol!
I think I found a Picture of Glimmar:
The brain behind it all!:
Sorry for the off-topic.
Haha! Love it. :biggrin.gif:
That's given me an idea for the slime...'Glimmar's Brain'. How weird and egotistical would that be? Having my brain in a tank flopping around Minecraft...at least everyone would have the satisfaction of squishing me and slapping my brains all over a sticky piston! Lol! :biggrin.gif:
I'm trying to remember where I've seen that pic before, but i love the steampunk design. There's quite a few of my textures on display in that one pic...now perhaps folk will understand why I can't talk on Skype or similar...it would be too horrifying to contemplate!!! :blink.gif:
Haha! Thanks Aageon, and definately not off topic. I'm loving it as an idea now. :smile.gif:
Just wanted to let you know that I am going to give your TP a test run. My curiosity has overridden my innate dislike of steampunk. That and your TP looks really nice and I want to see it in game. My bro and I are building a large (200x100x?) obsidian keep and I am curious to see what it looks like steampunked.
Edit: Wow...This pack looks even better in game. However my lava/water/fire is still broke...(sigh)
posted a bunch of pics in my gallery showing off some digital gadgetry i've been messing around with, including a working 7 segment led display, driven by pistons =)
That's a very kind offer, Kaiassc. I'm notoriously slow at keeping up, but I will get round to it and I'd like to do it myself as it'll probably be a good organisational experience for me, but if I get stuck I'll be sure to shout out for help.
It might still be a while,'cos my wife had some surgery in hospital today and I'm currently ferrying our kids backwards and forwards and doing all the housework, etc. Something I already do, being the modern man I am. :biggrin.gif: Just a bit more intense for the next week. I'm currently typing this over my lunch! :smile.gif:
Many thanks again for the offer, it's a fantastic site and an amazing resource. :smile.gif:
anyone here have experience with the ingame pistons? i keep having issues with them when i try making 2 or 3 sticky pistons in a row move at the same time, especially when vertically stacked
like for example, the secret door trick:
i have that exactly as in the video...and for some reason, one of the blocks wont move right...the other 3 move perfectly, and the piston that wont behave is activating, so i know it has power...is there a glitch i dont know about with the ingame implementation of pistons?
Worth1000 contest is over, voting has started. I just looked through everything, and there are some rather impressive builds, as well as a number of par to sub-par builds. It seems as though one person submitted 4 or 5 different airships, all of which were very well done.
Just wanted to let you know that I am going to give your TP a test run. My curiosity has overridden my innate dislike of steampunk. That and your TP looks really nice and I want to see it in game. My bro and I are building a large (200x100x?) obsidian keep and I am curious to see what it looks like steampunked.Edit: Wow...This pack looks even better in game. However my lava/water/fire is still broke...(sigh)
Thanks mate. :smile.gif:
I like it when anyone using the pack thinks it looks better than they expected when they load it up. Sorry to hear about the lava, etc.
posted a bunch of pics in my gallery showing off some digital gadgetry i've been messing around with, including a working 7 segment led display, driven by pistons =) i love that iron block texture =)Minecraft Ironworks
Amazing! I don't understand any of it, but it looks awesome and I absolutely love seeing the redstone pipes used in that way, especially on the iron block!
Even though I love messing around with redstone wiring, anything I do with it is mostly random and hopefully looks good, but that's the artist in me, and why I'm in awe of guys like you who actually understand how to use redstone as real circuitry, etc.
anyone here have experience with the ingame pistons? i keep having issues with them when i try making 2 or 3 sticky pistons in a row move at the same time, especially when vertically stackedlike for example, the secret door trick: have that exactly as in the video...and for some reason, one of the blocks wont move right...the other 3 move perfectly, and the piston that wont behave is activating, so i know it has power...is there a glitch i dont know about with the ingame implementation of pistons?
Now that's what I mean about me not understanding. :biggrin.gif:
Worth1000 contest is over, voting has started. I just looked through everything, and there are some rather impressive builds, as well as a number of par to sub-par builds. It seems as though one person submitted 4 or 5 different airships, all of which were very well done.
Some amazing builds, but only one or two using Glimmar's Steampunk. :sad.gif: ...Oh well.
Love the back view, Squid. Sorry you missed the deadline, but perhaps I should set some sort of competition here and give everyone more time to produce something. :smile.gif:
By the way, I think your tank is one of the first landbased vehicles (not counting walkers) I've seen. I'd love to see a vast caterpillar tracked behemoth though...fortress/city scale. :smile.gif:
Nooooooo! You leave my brain alone, I say!! :dry.gif:
I remember seeing the trailers for that movie and wanting to see it, but we were moving to a large rundown Victorian/Edwardian house at the time that needed much work to make it habitable. The film may also have not made it to general release where we lived, but I remember very much wanting to see it. I also love most of the movies Ron Perlman has starred in, not least of which is 'Hellboy' 1 and 2
Yessir!
:biggrin.gif:
(so i can see the effects...since I cannot duplicate it myself)
***Edit - I was tired and forgot you posted one...so never mind :tongue.gif:
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to...."
I also have this weird problem, it appears to be only on old computers, but an easy fix is to save and quit to title or disconnect, and then click on mods and texture packs, switch to the default textures and then switch back to glimmars texture pack.
Back to talking about the glitch, I've used Misa's texture pack and this never happens to the rain, so I have no idea what's up.
Damn the Trolls! Full Steam Ahead!
I do remember how yougscasts were scared of your zombies.
One of the best texturepacks ever!
:biggrin.gif:
My living quarters..
(buildings courtesy of Dragonlight - Old Timer's Guild)
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to...."
i like the new armor,but i have a idea!(something to do with your pumkins and your armor)
i tried the armor and a placed a pumkin on my head and i got a idea!(wear pumkins,it gives you ideas)
heres the idea: make the gold armor match the pumkin's color so the armor looks like a diving suite.
sorry if there are some typos.... this was a late night post
Not a chance. Glimmar has stated multiple times that he doesn't like the higher resolutions, as they have a tendency to tile poorly, whereas lower resolution just doesn't have enough space to do much of anything. That's why he uses the 32x. There may be a chance that he'll let someone else make a higher res version (he already allowed someone to make a 16x version). However, make sure that you ask first: otherwise, he WILL report you for breaking forum rules.
I like the top view the best, Squid, and like Sheep love the personal 'walker', similarly I need to do something like that in my world too. Nice work all round.
Inbetween looking after my wife and purposefully avoiding the forums so that I wouldn't get 'sucked in', I fiddled with my new redstone wiring (sorry I haven't uploaded it yet!), pistons and repeaters, etc. to make some kind of random 'difference engine' in one of my Grand Terminus rooms.
Not knowing anything about the complexities of circuits, etc. like you experts, I stumbled across a weird machine design that randomly starts up and looks like it's doing something sophisticated and purposeful and then stops, then goes through a similar burst of random working (redstone lights flashing, pistons hammering, etc.). All in all, very disconcerting loud, mysterious and unplanned and doesn't require any further intervention from me. It's wonderful to stumble upon when wandering around...but totally useless! :smile.gif:
I've figured out how to repeat the machine on a larger scale and think it would look wonderful in the middle of an epic Steampunk vehicle or factory setting. I just need to make a little movie of it to show it off and see what you think. Most of you will figure exactly what's going on and be able to explain it to me, but what I think is great, is the way it's possible to muck about with Minecraft in this totally random creative way. Like photography (one of my other passions) you never quite know what you're going to get with continuous surprises round the corner.
I mentioned it above, Reaper, and meant to put a notice in my OP, but with family circumstances I just haven't had time to make more of it. Thanks for mentioning it again and I really hope you folk do manage to make something, though I can't expect you to do it with my textures, so I won't take offence...just have fun and if you've got something stored away in your Minecraft closet, now is the time to put it to good use.
Well I'm glad your happy with it for now, thanks mate. :smile.gif:
Thanks, ssaint. :smile.gif:
Sounds like you never stop...either in Minecraft or the real world! Best wishes for your volunteer work in the Dominican Rebuplic and take care.
MaudDib my good friend!! So glad you are back and well. :smile.gif:
I'm absent for a few days and I get all sorts of surprises when I pop in!
Everyone was worried about you and sad that circumstances had stopped you (or your computer!)in your tracks. As I'm sure you already know, Pchan3 kept your steamboat going and it's as popular as ever and still bears your name.
I missed your input particularly and now look forward to seeing what you come up with. My only frustration now being that over the summer months my time for Minecraft will dwindle with work and family commitments. I'm particularly worried about the timing of the 1.8 Minecraft Update and if it will come just when I'm away. :sad.gif:
I love the 'Ironworks' teaser, and still have the spectacular original on display in my OP! :biggrin.gif:
I'm very glad to have you back, mate. :smile.gif:
I never cease to be amazed by the ceaseless imagination which Minecraft inspires. :blink.gif:
Glad it doesn't mean more work for me! :smile.gif:
I still have to check through my PMs and reply to the rest of my posts here, but I've got to dash...duty calls!
By all means, this is what the textures are for, but thank you for asking. :smile.gif: A little mention as to where the textures came from would be excellent. Let us know when it's ready and maybe I can link to it in my OP. Good luck. :smile.gif:
That's a weird one indeed, but I've never experienced it myself. I've read the other posts, but two things occured to me, 1. operating system (when you mentioned older computers) and 2. the fact that my rain is a different resolution to the original, but so is Misa's and many others and MinahCraftah hasn't had a problem with her pack. However, mine is a combination of mostly 32x textures, but some 64x and 128x...so whether that has any effect I'm not sure. The fact that it can be sorted by switching to another pack, then back again might mean something to do with the patcher or the texture pack selector. As you can see I have no definitive answer, but I hope you find a solution as rain is wonderfully atmospheric. :sad.gif:
This also reminds me I need to edit the snow texture sometime. I don't build in snow biomes, so I'm not constantly confronted with the default falling snow texture...sorry!
Probably more than I love myself...I hope! :biggrin.gif: Hope you like the pack though. :smile.gif:
Yes it's all changed with the 1.7 update hasn't it. How frustrating! :sad.gif: I wonder how many others have been caught out the same way? Probably more with my pack than many others, because i try to make more blocks cosmetically useful as props than their originally intended purpose.
Thanks, MineCith. :smile.gif: So long as you forget the crotchless leather armor bit!! :biggrin.gif: Actually that was a classic piece of Yogcast comedy and one of my favourite bits. Perhaps i should make my current HD armor crotchless too! Ha ha. :biggrin.gif:
Glad you like 'em Faust. :smile.gif:
That's one of the alternates too...I think I like it better than the one I chose for default. When strung together I think they're more useful than my previous glowstone, because they look more convincing as wrought iron grating for structural purposes rather than just windows and lanterns. They're also more symetrical and that helps them to tile better.
I think you mean the 'note' block which Minecraft cobbles together from the 'musicplayer' block.
Inspiration often strikes in the wee small hours. :smile.gif:
That's an excellent idea, Tlos, and gives more of a useful purpose to both the gold armor and the pumpkin diving helm and a nice direction to take that armor type in to make it more distinctive from the others. I'll probably change both textures to better match each other and try and make the armor helmet a 'land' variation. So, lots to think about there...especially as I don't want to lose the 'railway lantern' ambiguity of the present pumpkin texture. :smile.gif:
As ksheep has accurately stated, it would be very unlikely. Not because I'm against higher textures necessarily (though I do think tiling kind of reaches it's effective limit at 64x until Notch changes how tiles are displayed in the distance that is), but to be honest, I just don't have time to support more than one texture pack and I struggle to keep up with this one, especially at this time of year. :sad.gif:
I'd love to have the time to see what I could do at 64x, but I've got so used to squeezing the best I can out of 32x32 pixels now, I'd probably not cope with all those extra pixels. :biggrin.gif:
You've probably already noticed that many of the other textures like the armor, the character and my steamwolf are already greater than 32x...so you could say I'm keeping my options open, just incase I win the lottery, can retire and create textures for Minecraft full time. Lol!
Haha! Love it. :biggrin.gif:
That's given me an idea for the slime...'Glimmar's Brain'. How weird and egotistical would that be? Having my brain in a tank flopping around Minecraft...at least everyone would have the satisfaction of squishing me and slapping my brains all over a sticky piston! Lol! :biggrin.gif:
I'm trying to remember where I've seen that pic before, but i love the steampunk design. There's quite a few of my textures on display in that one pic...now perhaps folk will understand why I can't talk on Skype or similar...it would be too horrifying to contemplate!!! :blink.gif:
Haha! Thanks Aageon, and definately not off topic. I'm loving it as an idea now. :smile.gif:
Edit: Wow...This pack looks even better in game. However my lava/water/fire is still broke...(sigh)
i love that iron block texture =)
Minecraft Ironworks
Alright, awesome :biggrin.gif:
like for example, the secret door trick:
i have that exactly as in the video...and for some reason, one of the blocks wont move right...the other 3 move perfectly, and the piston that wont behave is activating, so i know it has power...is there a glitch i dont know about with the ingame implementation of pistons?
Here's what I was going to put in... (or I might have used my Land Leviathan)
It's an Enormous Tank!
Some building It blasted...
And back view showing the boiler.
Damn the Trolls! Full Steam Ahead!
Thanks mate. :smile.gif:
I like it when anyone using the pack thinks it looks better than they expected when they load it up. Sorry to hear about the lava, etc.
Amazing! I don't understand any of it, but it looks awesome and I absolutely love seeing the redstone pipes used in that way, especially on the iron block!
Even though I love messing around with redstone wiring, anything I do with it is mostly random and hopefully looks good, but that's the artist in me, and why I'm in awe of guys like you who actually understand how to use redstone as real circuitry, etc.
I may still take you up on your kind offer...at least to get me started! :smile.gif:
Now that's what I mean about me not understanding. :biggrin.gif:
Some amazing builds, but only one or two using Glimmar's Steampunk. :sad.gif: ...Oh well.
Love the back view, Squid. Sorry you missed the deadline, but perhaps I should set some sort of competition here and give everyone more time to produce something. :smile.gif:
By the way, I think your tank is one of the first landbased vehicles (not counting walkers) I've seen. I'd love to see a vast caterpillar tracked behemoth though...fortress/city scale. :smile.gif:
Nooooooo! You leave my brain alone, I say!! :dry.gif:
I remember seeing the trailers for that movie and wanting to see it, but we were moving to a large rundown Victorian/Edwardian house at the time that needed much work to make it habitable. The film may also have not made it to general release where we lived, but I remember very much wanting to see it. I also love most of the movies Ron Perlman has starred in, not least of which is 'Hellboy' 1 and 2