Yea, but Cave Johnson was telling OP to STFU and using the numbers from the poll as his argument. OP was merely giving a counter point to that.
So it goes both ways.
You do realize that even though the poll completly supports my side of the arguemnt, I just spent the entire post disproving it as a valid arguement for anybody?
I do see your argument and respect your side of it. I do think notch is taking his time on minecraft. Here are my thoghts on your response to 1.8
It is *CLEARLY* obvious that the eFame and millions of dollars Minecraft has made for Mojang has gotten to Notchs head, and by extension, the companies. He catches the most flak (and also, not to be forgotten or taken lightly, the most praise and worship) because he has set himself up as the face of Mojang/Minecraft. He is, to the average Minecrafter, the dude who made/developed/invented the game (regardless of whether it's true). This is in part due to the mindless zealotry with which some of the community speak of him on the forums here and all over the internet, and also due to Notchs own inability to put his ego aside and set people straight about the true nature of the games development.
This I can somewhat agree with. He is the head of minecraft but he still develops the game he isn't just putting Crap patches out there he actually adds new content still.
Having said that.. Here are a few things about 1.8 and things that have come to light recently that have really soured my opinion of Mojang/Notch.
From Notchs twitter~
Jens will be the lead minecraft dev for a while because of a super secret project I will be working on for two weeks.
Yes, you read that correct. Notch is "taking a break" (as if he hasn't had enough) from Minecraft to work on an entirely different project... I'd imagine Notch is wealthy enough from Minecraft sales alone that he doesn't *need* to produce a new game right away from any sort of financial point of view. Let's not forget he's involved in the development of the more recently announced Mojang title "Scrolls" as well.
So to clarify: Even though Minecraft development seems slow and unsatisfying these days, Notch is of the opinion that he has no real obligation to help speed the progress along. Instead he chooses to enter weekend long game contests and work on his other (non-minecraft) game projects.
People will take breaks its only natural that he gets tired at staring at a screen all day. While he has been taking breaks more recently you have to realize he is now(I think) married and has somewhat of a social life. But I have to say he is not always taking a break from coding he is taking a break from minecraft so it's still could be work oriented.
To any person with a conscious, that mountain of wealth (earned from Minecraft sales) would be an incredible motivator to complete the project that so many millions have paid him in good faith to complete. Yes, we knowingly purchased a product that was incomplete, but that purchase also included a promise of continued development for an unnamed period of time. Unfortunately we were never given any sort of development schedule and the guys at Mojang seem to be cool with a decidedly lazy approach to pretty much everything concerning Minecraft.
It is *CLEARLY* obvious that the eFame and millions of dollars Minecraft has made for Mojang has gotten to Notchs head, and by extension, the companies. He catches the most flak (and also, not to be forgotten or taken lightly, the most praise and worship) because he has set himself up as the face of Mojang/Minecraft. He is, to the average Minecrafter, the dude who made/developed/invented the game (regardless of whether it's true). This is in part due to the mindless zealotry with which some of the community speak of him on the forums here and all over the internet, and also due to Notchs own inability to put his ego aside and set people straight about the true nature of the games development.
Here you say its getting to his head and making him work less yet you argue that the wealth should have motivated him to make a better game? I got confused
Actually
Where's the customer appreciation?
It doesn't exist, and I'll tell you why.
The mindless fanbase of Minecraft (No i'm not implying that everyone other than me, or that everyone who disagrees with me, is mindless. But I'd like you to tell me with a straight face that a large part of the community isn't infatuated with Notch to the point of overlooking any shortcomings he or the game might have) seems to see no evil in their dear old leader. They have been caught up in a great social tidal wave of euphoric eCelebrity worship not unlike the "two minutes hate" in the book by George Orwell, "1984". They will take whatever Notch and co. give them and they will rant and rave about how it's the greatest thing ever without even stopping to consider if it's actually any good. It is, I'm sure to some degree, this very idol-worship behavior which has gotten to the mans head and made him think he can behave however he wants without consequence.
Most of the people arguing about notches personalty don't know him personally so we can't truely decide weather He is a power hungry ass and has no care for people.
Wait, 1.8 is delayed, is probably going to come to us in incomplete chunks, and there's no mention of resolving any of the longstanding bugs/issues that we've been dealing with? (pistons pushing pistons, redstone wiring circuit-autocomplete, etc)
I'm not sure I really need to expand on that. At least Notch is somewhat consistent in that he promises greatness and pretty much never actually delivers.
Well I can't deny it was realsed in chunks be think of all the problems and bugs that would have arissen from even more content being added all at once. I think the forums would have had even more raging about it if 1.8 wasn't split up.
Lastly, this is another quote from Notch, concerning Minecraft being available on Steam:
"Being on Steam limits a lot of what we’re allowed to do with the game, and how we’re allowed to talk to our users. We (probably?) wouldn’t be able to, say, sell capes or have a map market place on minecraft.net that works with steam customers in a way that keeps Valve happy. It would effectively split the Minecraft community into two parts, where only some of the players can access all of the weird content we want to add to the game." ~Notch
If the thought of Notch considering a minecraft cash shop while the game itself is still incomplete doesn't get your blood boiling... Then his pathetic excuse about why he can't bring himself (We should be thankful he's so diligently trying to protect his cash shop for us, right?) to let the community be torn asunder because some people might not have access to virtual items for cash... This man has gotten *RICH* off of an incomplete game and is not only content to just let it putter along while the money keeps pouring in, he's trying to figure out ways to make MORE money from it.
While I agree that we don't really need a shop its up to Notch if he wants it on steam or not. If you dislike tis you may add a non-steam game on steam.(this allows you to play the game as if it was on steam for the most part.)
Shame on you Notch.
Shame on you Mojang.
You suckered me in with an interesting game and all sorts of wild promises that never seem to fully materialize.
Won't happen again!
Was fun while it lasted.
A fair argument anyways I do belive this happened at the Halloween update as well people will never be satisfied and strangely a lot of the same points were brought up such as Notch not caring for the players and taking to many breaks...
If you made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read my thread. Feel free to post and tell me why you think I'm wrong or overreacting. Also feel free to chime in if you feel similarly to me and are rather let down.
Please try to keep discussion civil and orderly. I realize it can be an emotional subject for some (myself included), but let's try and argue with our brains, not our hearts. My disgust is pointed directly at Mojang, and not at any individual of the community, so please refrain from making personal attacks towards me or anyone else who posts in this thread and the favor will be returned.
I've read through this post about 20 times just to make sure I've toned down anything that could be considered insulting (except I guess towards Notch *rage*). If I somehow missed something or you take offense at something I've said, please let me know and I will try to promptly make the necessary changes.
It's not my intention to lash out at the community, it is my intention to express my disgust at Mojang/Notchs business practices in a place that they are most likely to see it.
Thanks again if you actual read my novel. Happy posting!
Leaked 1.8 Pre-release beta test version of beta impressions:
Firstly, I wonder what Jeb was thinking when he gave his original 8th of September release date guess. If it wasn't before, it's obvious now that 1.8 isn't anywhere near completion. This sort of poor communication is exactly what I was trying to bring up with this thread.
How did they NOT figure out that XP orbs lag the hell out of the server whenever someone that has a few levels worth dies?
How did they NOT figure out the furnace bug?
These kinds of blatantly obvious bugs/design flaws making it through their debugging/coding process is kind of amateurish and embarrassing in my opinion.
If you want to say that its amateurish of him for making mistakes try to code yourself and you will see how hard it is to think of bugs somthing might cause while coding it. (Aka: It is pretty hard to do.)
I'd also like to take a moment to point out that within a number of hours of the leaked 1.8 pre-release beta test version of the beta being released there were COMMUNITY MADE bugfixes for these issues. Again, kind of embarrassing (for Mojang).
Why is it that a company raking in $200,000 a day is unable to produce a stable update after months (since 1.8 has been in the works since the June/July time frame according to Notch and Co.) of development. Why is it that they're unable to properly communicate?
I could go on about multiple other aspects of 1.8 that are ridiculously buggy or just flat out poorly implemented (mineshafts/fortresses/ravines, limited visibility at lower altitudes, outrageous amount of crashing, etc), but I feel like I've already made my point and further reinforced my original argument.
Believe what you will, but 1.8 has been nothing but one fiasco after another since it was conceived.
Some people said almost the exact same about the Halloween update. XD
Thanks for your time.
Nice argument by the way
-Blockbust
Feel free to argue back if you want I might not reply due to laziness and or homework. XD
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Dr. Steam »
Open your eyes. In the end you will have to decide for yourself. You alone.
You do realize that even though the poll completly supports my side of the arguemnt, I just spent the entire post disproving it as a valid arguement for anybody?
Okay, the ratio's for the poll go like this I believe, and yes, I know the ratios are irrelevant because "technically" the pole is irrelevant, but I wished to post them up anyways.
Cave Johnson’s exaggerated ratio was 8:1
While mine seems to come out to 2.75:1
If we include the neutral party on both sides that ratio approximately changes to 2.20588:1
(That is why I wish to exclude the neutral party when weighing the two main sides of this poll as it serves to benefit the smaller side thus profoundly affecting the ratio)
2.75:1 still does get Cave Johnson's point across that the poll favours that side, although the poll is not accurate, so I would account for that by saying his agrument is invalid or something like that.
Just a couple points to bring up. Some people say, "it's Notch's game he can do what he wants with it." Actually, no. When you pay 20 dollars or more, it becomes your game, and at the point of purchase the company providing the game is under certain contractual obligations to fulfill promises.
People call 1.8 and update, but it's much more than an update, it is changing the whole nature of the game. Actually 1.8 is a different game, a game that many people did not bargain for when they originally purchased it.
Except for a few bugs, there was nothing wrong with 1.7.3 It was a complete game as it was, and a very successful and appreciated game at that. Like the saying goes, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it."
For myself, I'm having incredible problems with lag now that I never had before in the game. I'm very disappointed.
tl;dr Notch no longer cares for his fan base and prefers his millions and wife over minecraft!
i stopped readíng after the summary.. you do realise that being the head of a company means that you have to be involved in different things?
just because and update is comming it doesn't mean that he should be drinking coffee 24/7 to stay awake to satisfy your needs.. stop crying pls
edit: wow, after having read part of his post it seems i was actually correct with my tl;dr
He also has a responsibility to make sure his company does things correctly, wether he can do it all himself or not.
Just a couple points to bring up. Some people say, "it's Notch's game he can do what he wants with it." Actually, no. When you pay 20 dollars or more, it becomes your game, and at the point of purchase the company providing the game is under certain contractual obligations to fulfill promises.
People call 1.8 and update, but it's much more than an update, it is changing the whole nature of the game. Actually 1.8 is a different game, a game that many people did not bargain for when they originally purchased it.
Except for a few bugs, there was nothing wrong with 1.7.3 It was a complete game as it was, and a very successful and appreciated game at that. Like the saying goes, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it."
For myself, I'm having incredible problems with lag now that I never had before in the game. I'm very disappointed.
Similar to when people buy stocks in a company. They buy the stock to help fund the company, because they like the way it's going. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to sell minecraft back to Mojang or Notch (since some of our contracts are with Notch himself).
Similar to when people buy stocks in a company. They buy the stock to help fund the company, because they like the way it's going. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to sell minecraft back to Mojang or Notch (since some of our contracts are with Notch himself).
Mojang doesn't have to suffer the dreaded stock holders as it has none, and buying the game isn't anything like buying stock in a company. Shares are assets in a literial sense, a game isn't really an asset, it shouldn't be considered one even if it were in a physical manifest. Buying a product from a company and buying company shares in it are two different things.
Similar to when people buy stocks in a company. They buy the stock to help fund the company, because they like the way it's going. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to sell minecraft back to Mojang or Notch (since some of our contracts are with Notch himself).
buying a game is nothing like buying stocks, if you buy a game like fallout or call of duty you normaly wont get many improvments to it unless a seqaul comes out or you or someone else makes a mod. other then that you dont get much of a say in how the games are made other then by how many ppl play them.
ex. lots of ppl play a game and enjoy it, the next one would get even better
if it didnt sell much and the ones who did play it didnt enjoy it, theres a good chance their wont be another one anytime soon.
Not saying these other companies dont care about their games or its people, they just cant stay on one game for to long. Lucky Minecraft is a bit different as its not finished and can still be improved by ideas from the masses(fans) or from new ideas notch and others get while playing the game.(like the recent post on mobs) And for the people who want updates their are 100s of game changing mods out their, so if the plain minecraft is getting stale because of a big update taking to long just go out and get a few good mods.
just some thoughts sorry for any grammer errors ive probably missed several of them
you buy the right to play the game, no matter what the game is. you don't actually own it.
wow 61 pages of crap and the bottom line: look at the poll results.
haters gonna hate.
I don't even know how to begin to tell you how wrong you are.
I'm not sure exactly what YOU bought when you forked over you or your parents credit card information to Mojang, but *I* bought a video game. Granted, what I bought wasn't a physical copy of a game, but rather the rights to ownership of digital property.
I'd like to see your source of information regarding your claim that we only purchased the right to play the game and not the game itself.
1) Make a better game yourself, then criticise design flaws / glitches / release times / "oh how could they not see x would cause y" et al.
2) You didn't fork out a month's wages for this game, it's a cheap indie game and stands above many at a similar price point, with more active development.
3) Mojang have embraced the community during the development cycle, connecting with the audience is the way forward, but means we get to know about all the bad decisions as well as the good, which in the past we'd have been blissfully unaware of.
4) Who on Earth are you to tell someone who made a product how they should spend their time - taking a weekend off for a game development contest? How may days off did you have this week? I personally work a 6/7 day week and woe betide anyone to tell me I'm not entitled to spend a weekend doing what I want when I get the chance to. As for spending two weeks on another project - that's why there's a team of developers, Notch isn't some God who can whip out a minor-version update to Minecraft on his own in two weeks, nor can he necessarily speed along current development any quicker than any other member of his team.
5) It's a game, get a grip
-dp
I think that you haven't taken the time yourself to write up a good critical thread concerning a product you've purchased and have opinions about. As such, you haven't done this (this being the creation and defense of a thread) better than me, so your opinions are all invalid concerning this thread.
minecraft no longer works for macs runing OSX 10.6 or older. because of the updated java. im relay sad that i cant play 1.8 im stuck with 1.7 or no mine craft
minecraft no longer works for macs runing OSX 10.6 or older. because of the updated java. im relay sad that i cant play 1.8 im stuck with 1.7 or no mine craft
I've never owned a Mac, so I don't have any clue where to begin.
It would be awesome if you could find out what his issue is and help him out!
They only help I can give him is what version of Snow Leopard I'm running. It might be that I have an update he doesn't, which is why I included the ".8" at the end there.
And this is the problems with polls and statistics.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts - for support rather than for illumination."
-Andrew Lang
Statistics are too easy to skew and mis-represent. Even the raw data of that poll is misleading. We don't know how the release of 1.8 has affeted thoe numbers, we don't know how much skew there is between people rushing here to bash notch vs those rushing here to defend him, pr how much skew is inherant to being in the forumns, or the 1.8 subsection in particular. We don't know how many people are voting as a joke. We don't know what these numbers would look like for other companies to form a comparison.
All we can really say is the poll suggets it is more likely that people tend to like the update rather than dislike it.
Actually we can't say that because the poll doesn't even ask anything about 1.8.
What we can say is that the poll suggests the majority of those polled are satisfied with the current features of the game and the way Mojang is handling development. Similar, but definitely not the same as what you said.
And regarding your fancy little quote...
Call me a simpleton, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion of polls that we are having. A little explanation would be greatly appreciated.
I'm just replying about my vote in the poll: my only disappointment with the update itself is Endermen messing with my **** and not being able to change the time in creative mode (which wasn't promised anyway).
Mojang hasn't been around for very long and I don't think most of the team has had as much experience working as a company as, say, Blizzard or Nintendo (they do have their own game-breaking bugs btw, Twilight Princess cannon room glitch, infinite SC2 balance issues and game-crashers...). I wouldn't doubt it if Notch is overextending himself with the ideas while trying to balance a million things at once, most of which deal with not-Minecraft. Scheduling problems, it's a learning experience.
if you end up attacking me with fancy ways of calling me stupid or presenting even more statistics, my reply is "chill out brah" because you're getting really mad at everyone
Actually we can't say that because the poll doesn't even ask anything about 1.8.
What we can say is that the poll suggests the majority of those polled are satisfied with the current features of the game and the way Mojang is handling development. Similar, but definitely not the same as what you said.
And regarding your fancy little quote...
Call me a simpleton, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion of polls that we are having. A little explanation would be greatly appreciated.
people were making arguments along the line of "more people are satisfied than not, so you are wrong", or "This significant percentage of people are unhappy, so there is a problem". This is using statistics to support your view, and at that point you are just throwing numbers around and presenting them in whatever way makes your point sound better. You shouldn't be using statistics to support your arguments, you should use them to illuminate the issue. To do so, we would need much more data than we have hear, such as what this poll would tell you about other companies, an analysis of the biases involved, etc, that would help you come to a conclusion about what is going on.
people were making arguments along the line of "more people are satisfied than not, so you are wrong", or "This significant percentage of people are unhappy, so there is a problem". This is using statistics to support your view, and at that point you are just throwing numbers around and presenting them in whatever way makes your point sound better. You shouldn't be using statistics to support your arguments, you should use them to illuminate the issue. To do so, we would need much more data than we have hear, such as what this poll would tell you about other companies, an analysis of the biases involved, etc, that would help you come to a conclusion about what is going on.
So would you say that the poll results within this thread are not illuminating?
You do realize that even though the poll completly supports my side of the arguemnt, I just spent the entire post disproving it as a valid arguement for anybody?
Nice argument by the way
-Blockbust
Feel free to argue back if you want I might not reply due to laziness and or homework. XD
Sorry, I should have quoted bk201soren.
Okay, the ratio's for the poll go like this I believe, and yes, I know the ratios are irrelevant because "technically" the pole is irrelevant, but I wished to post them up anyways.
Cave Johnson’s exaggerated ratio was 8:1
While mine seems to come out to 2.75:1
If we include the neutral party on both sides that ratio approximately changes to 2.20588:1
(That is why I wish to exclude the neutral party when weighing the two main sides of this poll as it serves to benefit the smaller side thus profoundly affecting the ratio)
2.75:1 still does get Cave Johnson's point across that the poll favours that side, although the poll is not accurate, so I would account for that by saying his agrument is invalid or something like that.
People call 1.8 and update, but it's much more than an update, it is changing the whole nature of the game. Actually 1.8 is a different game, a game that many people did not bargain for when they originally purchased it.
Except for a few bugs, there was nothing wrong with 1.7.3 It was a complete game as it was, and a very successful and appreciated game at that. Like the saying goes, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it."
For myself, I'm having incredible problems with lag now that I never had before in the game. I'm very disappointed.
He also has a responsibility to make sure his company does things correctly, wether he can do it all himself or not.
Similar to when people buy stocks in a company. They buy the stock to help fund the company, because they like the way it's going. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to sell minecraft back to Mojang or Notch (since some of our contracts are with Notch himself).
Mojang doesn't have to suffer the dreaded stock holders as it has none, and buying the game isn't anything like buying stock in a company. Shares are assets in a literial sense, a game isn't really an asset, it shouldn't be considered one even if it were in a physical manifest. Buying a product from a company and buying company shares in it are two different things.
buying a game is nothing like buying stocks, if you buy a game like fallout or call of duty you normaly wont get many improvments to it unless a seqaul comes out or you or someone else makes a mod. other then that you dont get much of a say in how the games are made other then by how many ppl play them.
ex. lots of ppl play a game and enjoy it, the next one would get even better
if it didnt sell much and the ones who did play it didnt enjoy it, theres a good chance their wont be another one anytime soon.
Not saying these other companies dont care about their games or its people, they just cant stay on one game for to long. Lucky Minecraft is a bit different as its not finished and can still be improved by ideas from the masses(fans) or from new ideas notch and others get while playing the game.(like the recent post on mobs) And for the people who want updates their are 100s of game changing mods out their, so if the plain minecraft is getting stale because of a big update taking to long just go out and get a few good mods.
just some thoughts sorry for any grammer errors ive probably missed several of them
wow 61 pages of crap and the bottom line: look at the poll results.
haters gonna hate.
I don't even know how to begin to tell you how wrong you are.
I'm not sure exactly what YOU bought when you forked over you or your parents credit card information to Mojang, but *I* bought a video game. Granted, what I bought wasn't a physical copy of a game, but rather the rights to ownership of digital property.
I'd like to see your source of information regarding your claim that we only purchased the right to play the game and not the game itself.
Here's a link to back up my claim. Minecraft.net gift code purchase screen
Take note of the last of the bullet points on that page:
Once you've bought the game, it's yours. No DRM.
So yes, I DO own the game, not just the right to play it.
I think that you haven't taken the time yourself to write up a good critical thread concerning a product you've purchased and have opinions about. As such, you haven't done this (this being the creation and defense of a thread) better than me, so your opinions are all invalid concerning this thread.
I'm running it on mac 10.6.8 right now.
Maybe some advice is in order?
I've never owned a Mac, so I don't have any clue where to begin.
It would be awesome if you could find out what his issue is and help him out!
Edit: Looks like he's gone already. Oh well.
They only help I can give him is what version of Snow Leopard I'm running. It might be that I have an update he doesn't, which is why I included the ".8" at the end there.
Actually we can't say that because the poll doesn't even ask anything about 1.8.
What we can say is that the poll suggests the majority of those polled are satisfied with the current features of the game and the way Mojang is handling development. Similar, but definitely not the same as what you said.
And regarding your fancy little quote...
Call me a simpleton, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion of polls that we are having. A little explanation would be greatly appreciated.
Mojang hasn't been around for very long and I don't think most of the team has had as much experience working as a company as, say, Blizzard or Nintendo (they do have their own game-breaking bugs btw, Twilight Princess cannon room glitch, infinite SC2 balance issues and game-crashers...). I wouldn't doubt it if Notch is overextending himself with the ideas while trying to balance a million things at once, most of which deal with not-Minecraft. Scheduling problems, it's a learning experience.
if you end up attacking me with fancy ways of calling me stupid or presenting even more statistics, my reply is "chill out brah" because you're getting really mad at everyone
people were making arguments along the line of "more people are satisfied than not, so you are wrong", or "This significant percentage of people are unhappy, so there is a problem". This is using statistics to support your view, and at that point you are just throwing numbers around and presenting them in whatever way makes your point sound better. You shouldn't be using statistics to support your arguments, you should use them to illuminate the issue. To do so, we would need much more data than we have hear, such as what this poll would tell you about other companies, an analysis of the biases involved, etc, that would help you come to a conclusion about what is going on.
So would you say that the poll results within this thread are not illuminating?