I did some thinking, and I realized that the crafting system, while incredibly cool, needs just one thing: a source of crafting recipes INSIDE the game. It sorta breaks the fourth wall to have to go to Minepedia to find the recipes. Something I heard suggested over in this thread ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10233 ) Caught my intrigue. The idea is an object like a painting that you place on a wall and that switches between numerous blueprints. You would be free to build any of them provided you crafted the proper materials, but you wouldn't know what you were building until you actually built it. So, while switching the blueprint around, you'd come across this strange recipe:
And what is it, but... A WORKBENCH!
Then you take the blueprint off the wall and put it back on and you get...
...
A storage box!
The blueprint would be on the wall of your starting house in Survival/Indev so that you don't have a version of the Dwarf Fortress "First anvil" paradox.
PS: I know that Notch is smarter than to release the full game without some sort of in-game recipe source, just so you know, I'm not suggesting that he was always going to just let the player rely on trial-and-error or Minepedia for the recipes. I'm just suggesting a way for players to acquire some of them.
Perhaps the blueprints you get are restricted to whatever tech level you used to make the blueprint. So say you made a blueprint out of stone, you would only get recipes for stone stuff. Get some metal and make blueprints from that and you can see the various metal things you can make. Of course this only applies if each material level had different things you can do with them.
Thus you are not told how to make a bunch of crazy metal constructions as you search through the blueprints for how to make a wood axe.
I made a workbench and pick without minepedia. because I didn't know minepedia existed at the time. Once I knew about it, I used it for convenience, but the systems as they exist are fairly intuitive. I don't think it should be so complex as NEEDING a system that tells you how to make stuff. Dwarf Fortress has become so complex by this point- and it's getting more complex- that it actually NEEDS the DFWiki in order for people to even know the basic controls and gameplay features. That is not a good thing.
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
Kydo, I was just using the workbench and storage container as an example. I strongly doubt you created TNT without needing to look at the Wiki. Also, in the current state of minecraft, the deeper, more complex things are optional, not required for play. If the game doesn't get deeper, it will get boring. Be sure you are making a distinction between COMPLEX gameplay and DEEP gameplay, because I don't think you are currently aware of that distinction.
Kydo, I was just using the workbench and storage container as an example. I strongly doubt you created TNT without needing to look at the Wiki. Also, in the current state of minecraft, the deeper, more complex things are optional, not required for play. If the game doesn't get deeper, it will get boring. Be sure you are making a distinction between COMPLEX gameplay and DEEP gameplay, because I don't think you are currently aware of that distinction.
I knew TNT existed, and I knew gunpowder was present. It would have been a matter of tyime before I realized what I needed was sand. (Which is rather strange, actually)
I am aware of it. What I'm against is the arbitrary addition of complexity. Minecraft already has moderately deep gameplay as it is. Multiplayer survival will simply amplify this.
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
How does the blueprint idea add unnecessary complexity? Because, as I pointed out before, there are things in the game that no one will discover on their own without a genuinely unnecessary period of trial-and-error. Also note that in the future, there will be people who DON'T know that TNT exists in the game. It is impossible to anticipate every object anyone would ever try to make, so that means that there will always be players to whom it would never occur to combine ingredients in the ways needed to make certain objects with more complex functions. This means that there must be some way to impart this knowledge to them. A walk-through demonstrating every possible crafting recipe would be tedious and impractical, and the blueprint idea takes the place of such a tutorial.
This is much like one of the major flaws of the recent Nintendo DS game Scribblenauts. This review of the game demonstrates this principle when Yahtzee was trying to spawn a big rock.
How does the blueprint idea add unnecessary complexity? Because, as I pointed out before, there are things in the game that no one will discover on their own without a genuinely unnecessary period of trial-and-error. Also note that in the future, there will be people who DON'T know that TNT exists in the game. It is impossible to anticipate every object anyone would ever try to make, so that means that there will always be players to whom it would never occur to combine ingredients in the ways needed to make certain objects with more complex functions. This means that there must be some way to impart this knowledge to them. A walk-through demonstrating every possible crafting recipe would be tedious and impractical, and the blueprint idea takes the place of such a tutorial.
This is much like one of the major flaws of the recent Nintendo DS game Scribblenauts. This review of the game demonstrates this principle when Yahtzee was trying to spawn a big rock.
When you have a game that has objects that must be created, you have to TELL users how to create them or what they can create.
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Kydo thinks the crafting system should always be as simple as it is now. He dislikes the idea of making components which are then assembled into an object. He's arguing more against that than your blueprint, but he doesn't like your blueprint because he doesn't think it's necessary for his vision of Minecraft.
Sidenote: I completely disagree with Kydo's vision of Minecraft. Blueprint sounds like a good idea.
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Choose your words wisely.
Defend your words flexibly.
Change your words fittingly.
Let prejudice, popular opinion, and preconception be free from your judgments.
If it is the case that Kydo thinks badly of intermediate materials, I need only point out that there already are such object in the game. Sticks, Bowls, and iron/gold bars serve no purpose other than being used in crafting.
So just to be clear, these blueprints or recipes, would not be required to craft something, it would just be like an in-game manual which shows players how to craft things?
I can't see how that adds complexity, if you're saying that then the wikipedia adds just as much complexity now with the only difference being that it's not in-game.
Exactly. It's an in-game way to discover new templates, not to make them available.
I saw this idea, and liked it. To expand on it a bit more, it would make sense for these to be discovered based on what you've already made. You can't find blueprints for iron pickaxes if you haven't even cut down your first tree yet.
How they show up, they could be found as items inside blocks (You found a blueprint left here by someone!) to be kept in an inventory-like book that you can pull up for future reference.
they could appear as 'cave drawings' on the wall as in the pictures.
they could come to you in 'a flash of inspiration'.
probably many more ideas.
As for having to figure out recipes for yourself, this is definitely not something I support. I tried it, even knowing there was such thing as a workbench, I was unable to create one spontaneously, and gave up trying combinations before I knew that's how the game worked. the only things I've managed to guess at were the shapes of clothes, once I knew that they could be made, and once I had glanced at them on the wiki.
I saw this idea, and liked it. To expand on it a bit more, it would make sense for these to be discovered based on what you've already made. You can't find blueprints for iron pickaxes if you haven't even cut down your first tree yet.
How they show up, they could be found as items inside blocks (You found a blueprint left here by someone!) to be kept in an inventory-like book that you can pull up for future reference.
they could appear as 'cave drawings' on the wall as in the pictures.
they could come to you in 'a flash of inspiration'.
probably many more ideas.
As for having to figure out recipes for yourself, this is definitely not something I support. I tried it, even knowing there was such thing as a workbench, I was unable to create one spontaneously, and gave up trying combinations before I knew that's how the game worked. the only things I've managed to guess at were the shapes of clothes, once I knew that they could be made, and once I had glanced at them on the wiki.
THIS THIS ****ING THIS.
That's brilliant, I don't know why I hadn't thought of it. And damn, even better, the idea of finding them bound in boxes works with the idea of finding them at logical times, like only making a pickax after having discovered stick-making. You'd find the different blueprints bound inside of the related blocks, like the workbench and storage box would be found in wood, the iron armor blueprint found inside of iron ore, the flint and steel blueprint would be found in gravel, etc.
I know this is a week-old post, but an idea occurred to me and I didn't want to continue the off-topic discussion of blueprints on the bookshelves thread.
In this thread we discussed blueprints showing up when you break blocks, to teach you how to make new things. For those that don't like the restrictiveness, it could be made more straightforward and simply have blueprints for, like, a workbench, in the first tree trunk you break down.
But still, many won't like that idea.
so instead, you could have the crafting dialog box give ghost-like images as soon as you put a block in the template showing possible templates you could make based on where the block was placed, and what other items you have in your inventory.
You can read a this post the idea of a ingame hint system:
extra:
Ingame material creator can also be used as a hint system:
- when you select a item you can see the blueprint and the stats (all existing items will be available)
- when you never has found or crafted one of the needed Ingredient you see the blueprint like this:
looking forward to see this or similar be implemented :wink.gif:
so instead, you could have the crafting dialog box give ghost-like images as soon as you put a block in the template showing possible templates you could make based on where the block was placed, and what other items you have in your inventory.
A quick example:
I like this quite a bit more than having to place a blueprint on a wall and use that, or finding them randomly.
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GENERATION 18: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
I like the idea of being able to discover crafting recipes ingame, as long as it is not a prerequisite for creating the items.
Swingerzetta's idea seems interesting. If it is used, I would like a way to disable it, but it would be helpful for people learning the ropes.
If it is the case that Kydo thinks badly of intermediate materials, I need only point out that there already are such object in the game. Sticks, Bowls, and iron/gold bars serve no purpose other than being used in crafting.
And I would like them to. I'd like to be able to hang the swords and tools on walls, or place them on tables. I'd like to be able to stack gold bars and make physical piles of wheat, or make fences or supports out of sticks. I think crafting, and all inventory items, should be DIRECTLY related to building in the environment.
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
And what is it, but... A WORKBENCH!
Then you take the blueprint off the wall and put it back on and you get...
...
A storage box!
The blueprint would be on the wall of your starting house in Survival/Indev so that you don't have a version of the Dwarf Fortress "First anvil" paradox.
PS: I know that Notch is smarter than to release the full game without some sort of in-game recipe source, just so you know, I'm not suggesting that he was always going to just let the player rely on trial-and-error or Minepedia for the recipes. I'm just suggesting a way for players to acquire some of them.
^^My blog^^
Thus you are not told how to make a bunch of crazy metal constructions as you search through the blueprints for how to make a wood axe.
^^My blog^^
I knew TNT existed, and I knew gunpowder was present. It would have been a matter of tyime before I realized what I needed was sand. (Which is rather strange, actually)
I am aware of it. What I'm against is the arbitrary addition of complexity. Minecraft already has moderately deep gameplay as it is. Multiplayer survival will simply amplify this.
This is much like one of the major flaws of the recent Nintendo DS game Scribblenauts. This review of the game demonstrates this principle when Yahtzee was trying to spawn a big rock.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... ibblenauts
When you have a game that has objects that must be created, you have to TELL users how to create them or what they can create.
lern 2 gaem desien
^^My blog^^
Kydo thinks the crafting system should always be as simple as it is now. He dislikes the idea of making components which are then assembled into an object. He's arguing more against that than your blueprint, but he doesn't like your blueprint because he doesn't think it's necessary for his vision of Minecraft.
Sidenote: I completely disagree with Kydo's vision of Minecraft. Blueprint sounds like a good idea.
Defend your words flexibly.
Change your words fittingly.
Let prejudice, popular opinion, and preconception be free from your judgments.
^^My blog^^
Exactly. It's an in-game way to discover new templates, not to make them available.
^^My blog^^
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10308
^^My blog^^
You could of used these without permission ya know, as long as you give me credit.
How they show up, they could be found as items inside blocks (You found a blueprint left here by someone!) to be kept in an inventory-like book that you can pull up for future reference.
they could appear as 'cave drawings' on the wall as in the pictures.
they could come to you in 'a flash of inspiration'.
probably many more ideas.
As for having to figure out recipes for yourself, this is definitely not something I support. I tried it, even knowing there was such thing as a workbench, I was unable to create one spontaneously, and gave up trying combinations before I knew that's how the game worked. the only things I've managed to guess at were the shapes of clothes, once I knew that they could be made, and once I had glanced at them on the wiki.
THIS THIS ****ING THIS.
That's brilliant, I don't know why I hadn't thought of it. And damn, even better, the idea of finding them bound in boxes works with the idea of finding them at logical times, like only making a pickax after having discovered stick-making. You'd find the different blueprints bound inside of the related blocks, like the workbench and storage box would be found in wood, the iron armor blueprint found inside of iron ore, the flint and steel blueprint would be found in gravel, etc.
^^My blog^^
In this thread we discussed blueprints showing up when you break blocks, to teach you how to make new things. For those that don't like the restrictiveness, it could be made more straightforward and simply have blueprints for, like, a workbench, in the first tree trunk you break down.
But still, many won't like that idea.
so instead, you could have the crafting dialog box give ghost-like images as soon as you put a block in the template showing possible templates you could make based on where the block was placed, and what other items you have in your inventory.
A quick example:
I don't think you should have to work too hard to make things like this.
Besides, what's stopping people from looking it up in the wiki?
looking forward to see this or similar be implemented :wink.gif:
I like this quite a bit more than having to place a blueprint on a wall and use that, or finding them randomly.
Swingerzetta's idea seems interesting. If it is used, I would like a way to disable it, but it would be helpful for people learning the ropes.
And I would like them to. I'd like to be able to hang the swords and tools on walls, or place them on tables. I'd like to be able to stack gold bars and make physical piles of wheat, or make fences or supports out of sticks. I think crafting, and all inventory items, should be DIRECTLY related to building in the environment.