Cave-Ins and a rework in 'physics'

[Rubs10]

In my idea of cave-ins, each block has a certain 'stress' value. When a block exceeds the maximum 'stress', they will fall. 'Stress' only applies to the lowest block going horizontally, to better explain, here is a picture,


(The values should probably be reversed, so that 0 is the least amount of stress.)

The bottom layer has no stress, meaning that the column of stone going up the left side has no stress. However, the blocks extending from the side add stress,
Gray Stone= +2 Stress
Brown Dirt= +5 Stress
Silver Steel= +1 Stress (Making it an ideal support material)

The stone above the steel have stress equal to the steel, because the steel is the lowest block.


Implications:
Destroy the support columns of a building to make the building collapse
Cave Ins occur if you stretch your mine shaft too wide
Sand and gravel always have the maximum amount of stress, meaning their script could be replaced by this
You can have support columns made out of sand (Or soap)
The special floating island blocks would provide total support for anything touching it, remove these, and the entire island falls.

[tproc]

This is actually a pretty neat idea. However, it should be something that can be toggled on and off.

[gaaraxebeard]

This is actually a pretty neat idea. However, it should be something that can be toggled on and off.

Yeah, this could be really cool, but it would also severely limit the types of buildings you could construct.

[Demki]

This is actually a pretty neat idea. However, it should be something that can be toggled on and off.

Yeah, this could be really cool, but it would also severely limit the types of buildings you could construct.

True, no moar floating castles without those sneaky floating blocks.

[MaliciousH]

This would be a total game changer, for the better for those of us who want a bit more challenge. I would love to see it in place but yeah, need to be optional.

Have you shot it up to Notch yet?

[Janitor.Master]

Investigate floating blocks falling to the ground

From the public ToDo-List

Your idea seems to be on a good way to be implemented, also nice solution with those stress levels

[dlseth]

I love it; adds a whole new dimension of actually having to think about what you're going to build!

Though it might be smart to add tooling so people can check stress levels..

[Stakhanov]

Blocks can always start cracking if their stress is below 5.

The question is , can caves as currently generated exist under those conditions ? They can be pretty wide. A stone ceiling of 10x10 could not hold. Likewise , you would never see dirt ceilings or bridges.

It also prevents bridging over to remote sky islands.

Perhaps add support diagonally ? New blocks start with maximum stress , which they attempt to transfer to all 17 blocks nearby. Different materials can transfer different percentages of stress per block. So a straight plane of blocks would be more fragile than a wedge or vault.

[Razorlance]

Yeah, very cool implementation of solving floating blocks, it would just mean your buildings would have to be structurally sound. Not sure about the support columns made of sand (or soap), shouldn't the stress levels go downwards too, so that stronger blocks would crush weaker blocks?

I would also like to see wood and maybe cobblestone along with and iron (steel) blocks going hoizontally have higher stress thresholds to simulate support beams.

Perhaps values of:

= +1 (steel)
= +2
= +3
= +4
= +5

And possibly...

= always 0 (to simulate floating?)

And I guess arches would still be feasible, and probably necessary to span larger gaps.






= air

(There should really be an [air] smilie for using with the other blocks. And where's glass and diamond?)

[Ten_Tacles]

This will be pretty hard on Infinite maps.
Since the overground will be made first and THEN the caves, and that only when you dig down.
So thats hard to make.

Also Notch said, he maybe looks if he could make the only floating block obsidian, so every block has to be
connected to a obsidian block.
Like if a dirt block isn't connected to another block (except the other block is above it) , which is connected to
a obsidian block, it will fall.
Sand will fall always and maybe others will not fall when a block is above it. Or something.

[jivemasta]

It's a very good idea, and system for implementation. But my doubts lie with how much cpu this system will use. It basically means every block will have to update every tick, or have some sort of system to monitor changes to nearby blocks. Not to mention the implications in multiplayer mode.

[omegastick]

For how to update the values without constantly checking every block (extra cpu intensive on infdev levels) how about every time a block is created or destroyed it checks all blocks within a 64x64x64 cube on whether the stress has change? That would work for most creations except huge bridges. Or maybe if any of the sides of the 64x64x64 cube are having a stress change then it would check another 64x64x64 cube around it and so on...

[blaster]

For how to update the values without constantly checking every block (extra cpu intensive on infdev levels) how about every time a block is created or destroyed it checks all blocks within a 64x64x64 cube on whether the stress has change? That would work for most creations except huge bridges. Or maybe if any of the sides of the 64x64x64 cube are having a stress change then it would check another 64x64x64 cube around it and so on...

Somehow I think this makes it impossible to build a staircase down out of dirt...

[Homepie]

Block affected by gravity should definitely be a toggleable option. It would be interesting to play on a map with everything being affected by gravity, but I don't think it would be a "fun" one. Most of the fun then would probably derive from planning elaborate structures to support your housing, but that's not a kind of fun that appeals to me.

[Happyman]

Yes!

[Rubs10]

I can imagine the magical floating block becoming a valuable commodity. I would love to see a floating fortress powered by the stuff.

[kholhaus]

That would lead to some awesome 'DEFEND THE CASTLE!' Scenarios where a team of players has managed to excavate a floating island's power source of obsidian, and create a castle floating in the air. Another team has decided to raid the castle for their own purposes, and sieges them.

After a long, hard-fought battle, one sneaky thief from the attacking side breaks into the castle vault and sees the obsidian powersource encased in glass. He shouts 'RETREAT!' and all the others run from the courtyards and parapets, while the defending team is left in a daze. The thief retrieves the floating block, and makes a break for it, as the castle slowly crumbles from the sky. The thief dashes through the collapsing corridors watching others get buried or fall through holes, and when he makes it out, they all turn to see some of the defenders fleeing or being crushed by the mass of stone and dirt. Then they start work on a different floating castle, and it re-cycles.

[Rubs10]

That would lead to some awesome 'DEFEND THE CASTLE!' Scenarios where a team of players has managed to excavate a floating island's power source of obsidian, and create a castle floating in the air. Another team has decided to raid the castle for their own purposes, and sieges them.

After a long, hard-fought battle, one sneaky thief from the attacking side breaks into the castle vault and sees the obsidian powersource encased in glass. He shouts 'RETREAT!' and all the others run from the courtyards and parapets, while the defending team is left in a daze. The thief retrieves the floating block, and makes a break for it, as the castle slowly crumbles from the sky. The thief dashes through the collapsing corridors watching others get buried or fall through holes, and when he makes it out, they all turn to see some of the defenders fleeing or being crushed by the mass of stone and dirt. Then they start work on a different floating castle, and it re-cycles.

The problem with obsidian being able to null stress, is that if you place one on the ground, all stress in the area is instantly nulled.

[kholhaus]

Well there'd be restrictions of course. If a block of obsidian is touching ground (i.e. blocks that are directly connected to other blocks that connect to bedrock,) Then the nullifying is nullified, or in other words, that shit will not fly.

[Iguana]

Well, this idea sure adds a realism factor. Teachs people not to build floating castles of awesome, and to give it supports...when I read that, it actually makes me sad...I like floating castles...

[kholhaus]

Either Obsidian needs to be indestructable by TNT (meaning you can blow it up, but the material stays behind, putting it in lava makes it bounce, etc.), Or collapsing of rocks needs to take time. +8 Stress should start to crumble. It has to be high or else you'll need columns to hold up everything.

Plus, this gives a use for scaffolding. O u O

[Urchin]

this is a neat idea, but how do floating islands work with this system? and i would prefer if this stayed off of creative.

[Rubs10]

this is a neat idea, but how do floating islands work with this system? and i would prefer if this stayed off of creative.

Well duh, any realistic features like permanent lighting, combat, advanced water, or this should definetaly stay out of creative.

[Cheeseyx]

Well duh, any realistic features like permanent lighting, advanced water should definetaly stay out of creative.

Torches and working water would be nice to have in creative once MC goes into beta, along with diamond, crafting benches, etc. for decoration. Custom servers might make all water still water like they do now, but servers should be able to have actual waterfalls. Ops would be able to place water and lava spawns, to create waterfalls, and only ops could remove them. But the realistic things like having items and set numbers of things shouldn't be in creative.

[Yourself]

I had this exact idea a while ago (right after the floating blocks thing appeared in the TODO list). What inspired me was the way the lighting system worked. I figured it should be possible to just bootstrap that system into doing stress. There was one issue I had with the method that kept me from posting it: arches and domes. This method won't allow you to extend the range of ceilings with domes or arches and I really felt like that should be possible. With this you'll have support columns with a fixed spacing, which is alright, but I just really wanted to come up with a system that would handle arches and domes. I think this would be a good start for the stress system, but I just don't want to be so constrained by columns.

this is a neat idea, but how do floating islands work with this system? and i would prefer if this stayed off of creative.

Probably like how Notch has in his TODO list: one kind of block floats. Like obsidian. In this stress model an obsidian block would reset the stress value (much like how a torch resets a light value).

[Rubs10]

Well, arches would be practical if this system applied to diagnal blocks, rather than blocks that are just touching eachother.

[Yourself]

How do you mean? If the stress value still decreases the same amount when moving laterally, then arches won't increase the maximum span a bridge could have. So in your case, consider the silver blocks. You can't get more than 10 blocks away from a support column with them, no matter what shape you use. I mean, I could tolerate that in the game, but I really want to come up with a method where the shape influences the maximum span.

[TheGuy]

This is a great idea. Would make caves more realistic. I support this.

[A.I.]

I like it. It would introduce the vital element of support in anything you build. Simple constructions like walls would require little to no planning, but larger interior areas would need stronger structure and thought... lest there be fatal consequences.

[DiDaenskePyndt]

Well there'd be restrictions of course. If a block of obsidian is touching ground (i.e. blocks that are directly connected to other blocks that connect to bedrock,) Then the nullifying is nullified, or in other words, that shit will not fly.

Then all you would have to do to rape a floating castle would be to build a pillar of dirt up to it.