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[Smashingzwan]

Concerning potential future moderation of this thread, Mods please read spoiler.

Spoiler:

To any Moderators concerned with the location of this thread.  I wasn't sure where it belonged since it could easily be put in both the "discussion" forum and the "1.8 discussion" forum (and I can just as easily see it being deleted for not being in the right one).  If I have put this thread in an improper forum/subforum, I would really appreciate it if it could be moved to the proper place.  If it for some reason breaks forum guidelines and you decide it should be deleted, please let me know what about it is inappropriate so I can refrain from repeating the same mistake in the future.  I say this because I've had a number of posts deleted recently and I've received zero notifications or warnings letting me know why.  If a post I make is deleted it should be because it breaks a forum guideline/rule and I should therefore receive a warning detailing why, correct?  

I spent a good deal of time writing and rewriting this thread (I started pretty enraged, so the first draft was pretty inappropriate) so that it was as to the point and polite (as much as a thread like this can be polite anyway) as I could make it.

UPDATE:  I've added some comments concerning the release of the 1.8 pre-release of the leaked beta test version of the beta (I think I said that right) at the end of the post

Summary:
-Notch takes 2 week break from Minecraft development during crunch time of 1.8 release to work on another game.
-Notch details why his cash shop would destroy the Minecraft community if those who played the game on steam couldn't access it.
-1.8 is arriving later than expected, and it doesn't appear that we'll be getting a "complete" 1.8 for some time to come. (Lets not forgot we've still got bugfixes and promises from previous updates that haven't materialized yet)

Because of these and other issues, I have lost a great deal of respect for Mojang and will avoid purchasing any of their products in the future.

[ WALLOFTEXT/ACTUALPOST : INCOMING ]

It is *CLEARLY* obvious that the eFame and millions of dollars Minecraft has made for Mojang has gotten to Notchs head, and by extension, the companies.  He catches the most flak (and also, not to be forgotten or taken lightly, the most praise and worship) because he has set himself up as the face of Mojang/Minecraft.  He is, to the average Minecrafter, the dude who made/developed/invented the game (regardless of whether it's true).  This is in part due to the mindless zealotry with which some of the community speak of him on the forums here and all over the internet, and also due to Notchs own inability to put his ego aside and set people straight about the true nature of the games development.

Having said that.. Here are a few things about 1.8 and things that have come to light recently that have really soured my opinion of Mojang/Notch.

From Notchs twitter~
Jens will be the lead minecraft dev for a while because of a super secret project I will be working on for two weeks.

Yes, you read that correct.  Notch is "taking a break" (as if he hasn't had enough) from Minecraft to work on an entirely different project...   I'd imagine Notch is wealthy enough from Minecraft sales alone that he doesn't *need* to produce a new game right away from any sort of financial point of view.  Let's not forget he's involved in the development of the more recently announced Mojang title "Scrolls" as well.

So to clarify:  Even though Minecraft development seems slow and unsatisfying these days, Notch is of the opinion that he has no real obligation to help speed the progress along.  Instead he chooses to enter weekend long game contests and work on his other (non-minecraft) game projects.

To any person with a conscious, that mountain of wealth (earned from Minecraft sales) would be an incredible motivator to complete the project that so many millions have paid him in good faith to complete.  Yes, we knowingly purchased a product that was incomplete, but that purchase also included a promise of continued development for an unnamed period of time.  Unfortunately we were never given any sort of development schedule and the guys at Mojang seem to be cool with a decidedly lazy approach to pretty much everything concerning Minecraft.

Where's the customer appreciation?

It doesn't exist, and I'll tell you why.

The mindless fanbase of Minecraft (No i'm not implying that everyone other than me, or that everyone who disagrees with me, is mindless.  But I'd like you to tell me with a straight face that a large part of the community isn't infatuated with Notch to the point of overlooking any shortcomings he or the game might have) seems to see no evil in their dear old leader.  They have been caught up in a great social tidal wave of euphoric eCelebrity worship not unlike the "two minutes hate" in the book by George Orwell, "1984".  They will take whatever Notch and co. give them and they will rant and rave about how it's the greatest thing ever without even stopping to consider if it's actually any good.  It is, I'm sure to some degree, this very idol-worship behavior which has gotten to the mans head and made him think he can behave however he wants without consequence.

Wait, 1.8 is delayed, is probably going to come to us in incomplete chunks, and there's no mention of resolving any of the longstanding bugs/issues that we've been dealing with? (pistons pushing pistons, redstone wiring circuit-autocomplete, etc)

I'm not sure I really need to expand on that.  At least Notch is somewhat consistent in that he promises greatness and pretty much never actually delivers.

Lastly, this is another quote from Notch, concerning Minecraft being available on Steam:
"Being on Steam limits a lot of what we’re allowed to do with the game, and how we’re allowed to talk to our users. We (probably?) wouldn’t be able to, say, sell capes or have a map market place on minecraft.net that works with steam customers in a way that keeps Valve happy. It would effectively split the Minecraft community into two parts, where only some of the players can access all of the weird content we want to add to the game."  ~Notch

If the thought of Notch considering a minecraft cash shop while the game itself is still incomplete doesn't get your blood boiling...  Then his pathetic excuse about why he can't bring himself (We should be thankful he's so diligently trying to protect his cash shop for us, right?) to let the community be torn asunder because some people might not have access to virtual items for cash...  This man has gotten *RICH* off of an incomplete game and is not only content to just let it putter along while the money keeps pouring in, he's trying to figure out ways to make MORE money from it.

Shame on you Notch.
Shame on you Mojang.
You suckered me in with an interesting game and all sorts of wild promises that never seem to fully materialize.
Won't happen again!
Was fun while it lasted.

If you made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read my thread.  Feel free to post and tell me why you think I'm wrong or overreacting.  Also feel free to chime in if you feel similarly to me and are rather let down.

Please try to keep discussion civil and orderly.  I realize it can be an emotional subject for some (myself included), but let's try and argue with our brains, not our hearts.  My disgust is pointed directly at Mojang, and not at any individual of the community, so please refrain from making personal attacks towards me or anyone else who posts in this thread and the favor will be returned.

I've read through this post about 20 times just to make sure I've toned down anything that could be considered insulting (except I guess towards Notch *rage*).  If I somehow missed something or you take offense at something I've said, please let me know and I will try to promptly make the necessary changes.

It's not my intention to lash out at the community, it is my intention to express my disgust at Mojang/Notchs business practices in a place that they are most likely to see it.

Thanks again if you actual read my novel.  Happy posting!

Leaked 1.8 Pre-release beta test version of beta impressions:

Firstly, I wonder what Jeb was thinking when he gave his original 8th of September release date guess.  If it wasn't before, it's obvious now that 1.8 isn't anywhere near completion.  This sort of poor communication is exactly what I was trying to bring up with this thread.

How did they NOT figure out that XP orbs lag the hell out of the server whenever someone that has a few levels worth dies?

How did they NOT figure out the furnace bug?

These kinds of blatantly obvious bugs/design flaws making it through their debugging/coding process is kind of amateurish and embarrassing in my opinion.

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that within a number of hours of the leaked 1.8 pre-release beta test version of the beta being released there were COMMUNITY MADE bugfixes for these issues.  Again, kind of embarrassing (for Mojang).

Why is it that a company raking in $200,000 a day is unable to produce a stable update after months (since 1.8 has been in the works since the June/July time frame according to Notch and Co.) of development.  Why is it that they're unable to properly communicate?

I could go on about multiple other aspects of 1.8 that are ridiculously buggy or just flat out poorly implemented (mineshafts/fortresses/ravines, limited visibility at lower altitudes, outrageous amount of crashing, etc), but I feel like I've already made my point and further reinforced my original argument.

Believe what you will, but 1.8 has been nothing but one fiasco after another since it was conceived.

Thanks for your time.

[Nobscu]

It took six DR Pepper cans, 2 Turkey themed crisps and a Lee evens show in the background to read this entire post.

I think Mojang are a pretty solid company. Don't forget they're new to the industry. One thing you said was "1.8 was delayed" and that is really a stupid thing to say. Notch set no date, he is working on the kinks to make it a better game for us. That's why he showed it at PAX; so we could feedback and opiniate and he could work on the patch accordingly. Your argument was invalid

[Smashingzwan]

Eddz0r, on 30 August 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

I called the topic of the thread stupid...

I took the time to write up what I thought was a fairly easy to digest summary of what issues I have with the game as it currently is.  I even went as far as to add a cheesy feel-good disclaimer at the bottom, in the hopes that people like you would see that I am offering all posters respect and courtesy.

But here you are, contributing nothing but calling something I spent time trying to craft stupid.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion.  But I would greatly appreciate it if you could act like a mature individual for the sake of this discussion.

[flyingchihuahua]

Stop playing and stop worrying about it then.

There is nothing you can do about it, No amount of bitching from you will fix what ever you think is wrong.

[Stoup]

You raise a few good points Zwan. I too have noticed an awfully lazy trend in Mojang's development cycle. They ALWAYS promise so much yet they are never able to deliver everything they say they will. I can't remember the last time a plan for an update was laid out and then carried out completely.

Sadly, I think this sort of dev cycle is even spilling over into other games. After watching the Scrolls "trailer" (which was only a pre-rendered cinematic designed purely for advertisement) I noticed that the release date was specified as "eventually".

That seemed incredibly unprofessional to me, to just say that they basically have no plan for how the game's going to be developed.

[jimmc]

I am so fed up of there being 5 threads on every page of these forums complaining that Notch has a life outside of games design, and fyi comparing those more patient than you to characters in '1984' doesn't make you look smart, makes you look like a douche.

[Stoup]

I wish everyone would stop calling this thread stupid. He's clearly NOT some troll who's just out to bash Notch into oblivion, he's a Minecraft player just you or me who happens to have some legitimate concerns about Mojang's development cycle. The proper grammar, spelling and sentence structure alone should be cause for at least some level of respect...

[Bobdowl]

Stoup, on 30 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I wish everyone would stop calling this thread stupid. He's clearly NOT some troll who's just out to bash Notch into oblivion, he's a Minecraft player just you or me who happens to have some legitimate concerns about Mojang's development cycle. The proper grammar, spelling and sentence structure alone should be cause for at least some level of respect...

Don't even try you will just attract the Elementary-School-Rage.

[Nobscu]

I respect his opinion, I just don't like how he hasn't accounted for the alternate side of the argument.
And using Proper spelling, grammar and sentence structure is basic. Anyone should be able to do it. It's not that hard.

[flyingchihuahua]

Stoup, on 30 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I wish everyone would stop calling this thread stupid. He's clearly NOT some troll who's just out to bash Notch into oblivion, he's a Minecraft player just you or me who happens to have some legitimate concerns about Mojang's development cycle. The proper grammar, spelling and sentence structure alone should be cause for at least some level of respect...

I know this but what he doesn't realize is that there is no way in nether Notch is going to listen to some nameless fan and sudden focus his entire life creating one game and not getting a profit from it.

EDIT:

Nobscu, on 30 August 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

I just don't like how he hasn't accounted for the alternate side of the argument.

And this. You are a terrible debater if you don't include both sides of the argument.

[Smashingzwan]

Nobscu, on 30 August 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

It took six DR Pepper cans, 2 Turkey themed crisps and a Lee evens show in the background to read this entire post.

I think Mojang are a pretty solid company. Don't forget they're new to the industry. One thing you said was "1.8 was delayed" and that is really a stupid thing to say. Notch set no date, he is working on the kinks to make it a better game for us. That's why he showed it at PAX; so we could feedback and opiniate and he could work on the patch accordingly. Your argument was invalid

Sorry about the length, believe it or not it was probably twice as long before I edited out all of the *rage*.

I see what you're getting at.  They did create a pretty awesome game with lots of potential in Minecraft.  I don't feel that their "newness" to the industry is any sort of excuse for the runaround that I feel we've been getting though.  Notchs recent attitude and comments have really rubbed me the wrong way.  He comes across like he's too good/too busy to work on the single reason (Minecraft) that he is enjoying the success that he currently has.  I'm rather insulted by that notion, but I understand that many other people are not.

I realize that a date for 1.8 was never set in stone.  But at the same time, this update has been hyped up by Mojang for quite some time now and the amount of content that it seems we'll actually be getting with the 1.8.1 (or whatever it is) update is rather... lackluster.

To further reinforce this point, please take a moment to go read the 1.9 FAQ thread that is stickied.  Check out all the features that were pretty much set in stone for 1.8 that have been pushed back into the hazy future of 1.9+ updates.  Yes, I realize most of the features were never promised to be in 1.8, but our 1.8 "adventure update" is seeming less and less adventurous by the day.  On top of that, Notch, one of the games main programmers (as far as I know) isn't even concerned enough with how buggy the game is (otherwise we'd be getting a more robust 1.8 and earlier at that).  He is instead devoting his time to a different project (which I'm sure he's planning on making money on).

This kind of (what appears to be) greed driven behavior is not the kind of thing that I find acceptable, especially in a customer driven business like the "release beta games for money but promise future updates/content" one.

It would be best for all involved here if we could refrain from calling each others opinions or ideas "stupid" though.

[Strottinglemon]

It's Notch's  (Jeb's) game, they can do what they want. I do somewhat agree on the failing to deliver part, but I think 1.8 will change that.

Either way, Minecraft is still a great game.

[tyler4768]

Stoup, on 30 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I wish everyone would stop calling this thread stupid. He's clearly NOT some troll who's just out to bash Notch into oblivion, he's a Minecraft player just you or me who happens to have some legitimate concerns about Mojang's development cycle. The proper grammar, spelling and sentence structure alone should be cause for at least some level of respect...

I for one comepletely agree with you!

Although for one thing Notch has already finished what he was doing aparently for 1.8 now it's just Jeb working on it becuase he is doing Npc's ect. At least that is what I have heard around the forums. Also you have guts putting this thread up... I hope you don't get too many flames.

[Equeon]

I agree with a lot of this. While I'm still "somewhat satisfied" with Notch & co, I'm disappointed in some decisions Notch has made, like splitting updates (First 1.7 is the Piston Update, now 1.8 comes in multiple parts...) and making lazy decisions like "pressure plate + fence = table" instead of adding an actual table block.

Also, what happened to real fishing? What happened to "be afraid of the dark?"
What happened to all of those unkept promises from nearly a year ago?

[flyingchihuahua]

Equeon, on 30 August 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Also, what happened to real fishing? What happened to "be afraid of the dark?"
What happened to all of those unkept promises from nearly a year ago?

A year is a long time. He may have just forgotten.

I'm still standing by my point that this thread was completely pointless.

[Eddz0r]

Stoup, on 30 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

He's clearly NOT some troll who's just out to bash Notch into oblivion...

Smashingzwan, on 30 August 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

Shame on you Notch.
Shame on you Mojang.
You suckered me in with an interesting game and all sorts of wild promises that never seem to fully materialize.
Won't happen again!
Was fun while it lasted.

Smashingzwan, on 30 August 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

Because of these and other issues, I have lost a great deal of respect for Mojang and will avoid purchasing any of their products in the future.

Smashingzwan, on 30 August 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

It is *CLEARLY* obvious that the eFame and millions of dollars Minecraft has made for Mojang has gotten to Notchs head, and by extension, the companies.

Smashingzwan, on 30 August 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

The mindless fanbase of Minecraft...

[Hidinginthelight]

Quote

-Notch takes 2 week break from Minecraft development during crunch time of 1.8 release to work on another game.

The project could be part of minecraft, it doesn't really say. Maybe he is taking 2 weeks to work on making dragons, or lanterns. While he is focusing on his project the main dev for the game will shift to someone else.

Quote

-Notch details why his cash shop would destroy the Minecraft community if those who played the game on steam couldn't access it.

During development is the time to think about adding in cash shop stuff. Will I ever buy items from it, hell no. But if it's true that steam won't support what he wants to do with it, it's his business, his game, his company.

Quote

-1.8 is arriving later than expected, and it doesn't appear that we'll be getting a "complete" 1.8 for some time to come. (Lets not forgot we've still got bugfixes and promises from previous updates that haven't materialized yet)

When was the release date supposed to be? Nothing official has ever been given. Officially we were told we'd get a first peak at it during PAX, which we did. And what's wrong with getting it in sections? You could either get 1.8 complete when all of it is done, or you could get the working parts now, and the rest when it's finished. I see that as a win for us, getting to play some of the update sooner, rather then having to wait for all of it to be finished

[r3sistance]

I think a lot of people are annoyed at Notch for the way he manages his projects, Notch has an issue a lot of programmers and developers have what is to come up with a load of ideas and attempt to work on all of them instead of focusing on the pressing and already over half-way done project that already has the potential to be great. I have that issue too but I don't have a multi-million dollar baby under my belt, if I did I'd take it a lot more seriously then Notch appears to be doing. It's a great game and Mojang has potential but he either needs to bring in a slightly larger team or he needs to stop doing so many side projects.

I won't take it away from Minecraft, it is a good game and it is coming a long fairly well. I am sure we will see more from Mojang in the long run too but they won't do nearly as half as well if Notch is swaying around so casually between various projects.

[Monkid]

Hm. Good points, but still what's behind all that? The frustration that you can't play 1.8 as soon as you wanted to? Yes, updated are infrequent. Yes, they are buggy, but still it's the best 10$ I ever paid for any game. If I had to pay for new updates, maybe I'd thought about it, but with things as they are now I'm fine. Yea, I'm anticipating 1.8, but there's a lot of other stuff to do and a lot of games to play.

Maybe my view is biased because I started playing long ago, when community was much smaller and Notch replied to emails (heck, I even got a reply to my email regarding the implementation of buckets), and I'm not viewing the whole thing as a customer. But anyway, I like to play Minecraft, and it's all that matters in the end.

[virgili555]

I kind of agree, but have you taken in mind that mojang is a game development company, which in order to recieve income, must develop more then one game at a time. It might not be that Notch needs the money, but i'm sure the other developers involved do

. Notch has other priorities such as his wife and personal life, and developing one game for a long time does get very tedious and boring. In my opinion, he deserves a break. I am not idolizing him, I am simply stating that he has other priorities which, unfortunately come first.

Also, did you stop and concider that the bug fixes and tweaks might actually stop the game from breaking? Probably not.

Did you stop and concider that the game has been worked on for a long time, and thus notch needs to take a break from it so he doesn't burn himself out? I don't think so.

Did you stop and concider the fact that the 1.8 update is actually massive, contains a lot of features which can take a long time to code and fix glitches? Nope.

Did you ever, ever concider that any external projects notch works on, might actually be for the benefit of Minecraft. For example new lighting engines, new ways of handling chunks and players? Nope you did not.

Those sorts of things are what's causing delays. Shame on you for not thinking.