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Ships, sailing and building (UPDATE: SIMPLER SAILING)


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145 replies to this topic

Poll: So what do you think? (326 member(s) have cast votes)

So what do you think?

  1. Arr matey, ye be setting stunsails with this one! (Piratespeak for "FTW") (216 votes [66.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.26%

  2. Meh, sounds ok. (22 votes [6.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.75%

  3. Too complicated, but I'd still love to see sailing and bigger boat building. (80 votes [24.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.54%

  4. Too complicated, wooden bathtubs only in minecraft. (3 votes [0.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.92%

  5. Its called minecraft, not seacraft. Even one Boat is too many. (5 votes [1.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.53%

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#1

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:34 PM

NB: The original post is on page 4, this is its replacement.
Please ignore it; its there for reference only.
For the shipbuilding section please click here (still needs simplifying and powered hull sections)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30542&start=30#p627060


Simple sailing :)



Heres a picture showing how to sail in any direction relative to the wind:

http://whitemountain...nts of Sail.bmp

Confused? Too complicated? Don't worry about it, :). You don't need to know any of those names and theres a simple pattern to the angle you set youre sails at. The sails angle closer to the centre of the boat the closer it points to the wind, heres some guidelines:

1. When the wind is behind you: your sails are all the way out

2. As you turn "closer" to the wind: you pull them in

3. If you let your sails out too far they will start to flap (protip, a flapping sail is doing nothing)

4. The further you pull them in beyond where they stop flapping, the less speed they give you


So, you're trying to let your sails out to the "sweet spot" where they're out as far as they can go without flapping. Still confused? Follow the golden rules:

These three rules are all anyone needs to know about how to sail in minecraft:


1. Point where you want to go.

2. Let your sails out until they start flapping.

3. Pull them in slightly so they stop.


The only real complication is the fact that a boat can't sail closer to the wind than 45 degrees (close hauled). It the boat turns any closer the wind will start making the sails flap no matter how close you pull them in, so you have to zig zag.

Controls

Nothing difficult, just the WASD we all know and love. "A" and "D" steer left and right. "W" lets your sails out and "S" pulls them in.

Wind

Originally I wanted wind strength and all kinds of things. Unfortunately its people didn't like the complication. So:

1. Wind can come from any one of eight directions (N NE E SE S SW W NW).

2. You can tell which way the wind is coming from by looking at a little triangular flag at the top of your mast (a "burgee," think windsock)


Posted Image

Conclusion

So what do you think? I don't think it would take a massive amount of coding. I reckon most people should be able to learn it quickly enough and its a nice little challange for crossing open water compared the trials and tribulations of holding down "W" long enough, ;). I've made this as simple as it can get while still recognisably representing sailing, but if it still confuses people too much I guess thats that.

(PS, if wind changing direction is too much, just make it always blow from the south, it would make sense with the clouds always going north anyway).

Posted Image
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

Register or log in to remove.

#2

Kryscent

Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:52 PM

I'd like to make an 'i like the cut of your jib' joke here, but i'd be lying. You've clearly put a lot of time into this, but frankly I feel it's a little too complictated for minecraft. That, and the idea of coding procedural wind scares me.

#3

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:09 PM

Wind needn't be hideously hard, no actual modelling of wind in relation to landmasses for instance. Just a quality that goes up and down and changes direction every so often. 8 directions only (forgot to mention that) N NE E SE S SW W NW.

Sailing could still work without it, well not no wind obviously, but if the "wind" always blew in one direction with one strength it wouldn't even exist except for sails.
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#4

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:09 PM

Oh and thanks for reading!
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#5

mrhalholhel

Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:14 PM

well it does seem like a nice idea though i dont think all of the techinal details are really needed
Posted Image

#6

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:36 PM

True, that was mostly for the benefit of the people talking about boats having buoyancy and trim. All anyone needs to know are the points of sailing. And a toddler could learn that.

(and again thanks for reading, I acknowledge its a little TLDR)
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#7

Blue_vision

Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:14 PM

I do like this a lot.  Definitely the best way to implement sailing.

The big question still stands though, should you be able to build ships out of blocks, or out of crafted ship parts?  I feel like this system would work much, much better with ship parts rather than block boats.

#8

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:37 PM

I think it could work with either, mystify has a pretty good proposal for block sails here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19455&hilit=sails

I deliberately avoided that question because its covered in so many other posts. Personally, either would be interesting.

Thanks for reading!
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#9

Sneferu
    Sneferu

    Redstone Miner

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  • Location: Dahshur

Posted 02 September 2010 - 01:06 AM

Love this idea.  I actually brought up this very point in mystify's "block-entity" thread.  No point in having an awesome looking ship, if the mechanics are too simple to make anything worth while out of it.

But I also don't see why it we couldn't get a combination of the two build proposals.  I have no problem with a blocky ship, but I think it would look tacky to have blocky sails, keel, and rudder.  Think about it, one solid METER of cloth to make a sail. lol.
Posted Image

#10

Giik
    Giik

    Void Walker

  • Members
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Posted 02 September 2010 - 01:13 AM

When I think of the whole wind system, I think of Wind Waker and everything sounds much simpler.
I actually kind of like this idea. It would put some adventurous romance into Minecraft with all that. Port towns, anyone? :P

+1

#11

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:24 AM

Just checked out windwaker. So basically you just point in a direction and hold down "W". To be honest that'll probably end up being the system. Its how boats are controlled on virtually every other game in existance. As an addition to the game this would require *alot* of work for a very small mechanic. I'm just a sailing junkie :Pig:

@sneferu Yeah, I'm beginning to shift towards craftable components for this reason. I might write up a proposal for a craftable ship that would still alow for creativity.
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#12

Giik
    Giik

    Void Walker

  • Members
  • 1719 posts

Posted 03 September 2010 - 09:54 PM

theicychameleon said:

Just checked out windwaker. So basically you just point in a direction and hold down "W". To be honest that'll probably end up being the system. Its how boats are controlled on virtually every other game in existance. As an addition to the game this would require *alot* of work for a very small mechanic. I'm just a sailing junkie :D

@sneferu Yeah, I'm beginning to shift towards craftable components for this reason. I might write up a proposal for a craftable ship that would still alow for creativity.
Except Minecraft's sailing would probably have more stuff, since land masses would block your path occasionally instead of having an occasional island, and maybe there'd be sea battles. CREEPER SHIP!
(or just water mobs)

#13

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 03 September 2010 - 10:38 PM

If your ship was shallow draught and there were sand bars on an approach or a boom chain across a harbour mouth it might get fun. I wonder will anyone make charts. It'd be a cool function on cartographer.

Posted Image
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#14

Sneferu
    Sneferu

    Redstone Miner

  • Members
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  • Location: Dahshur

Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:05 PM

Aye!  Then you should have to (and be rewarded for) adjusting your ship design.  Like the Vikings.  They used very wide flat bottomed ships which made them float very high in the water and allowed them to sail up shallow rivers.
Posted Image

#15

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:20 PM

Woah that image was bigger than I thought!

Draught would only be an issue if buoyancy was modeled obviously, although if the lateral resistance stuff above were included shallow draught ships would be at a disadvantage (they'd sail sideways more when the wind came from the side).

It could get really fun if there were rivers and only the smaller boats were shallow draught enough to navigate them. People might dredge channels to allow bigger vessels into their harbour.
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#16

Sneferu
    Sneferu

    Redstone Miner

  • Members
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  • Location: Dahshur

Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:22 PM

theicychameleon said:

Draught would only be an issue if buoyancy was modeled obviously, although if the lateral resistance stuff above were included shallow draught ships would be at a disadvantage (they'd sail sideways more when the wind came from the side).

Well that's why viking longboats used square, not triangular sails.

theicychameleon said:

It could get really fun if there were rivers and only the smaller boats were shallow draught enough to navigate them. People might dredge channels to allow bigger vessels into their harbour.

EXACTLY!  Logistics, baby!
Posted Image

#17

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:43 PM

Sneferu said:

Well that's why viking longboats used square, not triangular sails.

Not so sure about that. When lateen (arabic triangular sails) sails caught on they spread pretty fast. Square sails have huge advantages going downwind, but are less efficient upwind. They don't really make a difference in terms of lateral resistance. Longboats have quite an interesting hull design though, when they heel over (lean away from the wind) the wide body you were talking about digs into the water more and increases lateral resistance. It also increases buoyancy (it displaces more water while staying the same mass) when they heel so they're extremely stable.

Some scandanavian vessels used "leeboards" to increase lateral resistance. They can be raised for navigating shallow water.

Posted Image

And yeah, tactics like that would be really cool.
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

#18

FireDylan

Posted 04 September 2010 - 02:48 AM

Very well detailed theory.
We are not retreating, We are simply enitiating an assault in the opposite direction of our enemies!

#19

Orthanc6
    Orthanc6

    Tree Puncher

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 03:08 AM

I think draught is already in, basically the boat we have has a collision detection box, and a larger boat entity would have a larger collision box, so it would run aground in 1 or even 2 cube deep water.

I'm about to make some boat-entity concept models, I'll be back here when I've done that.
Links to my models can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27786&p=495689#p495689

#20

theicychameleon
  • Location: Carrickgolligan Co.Dublin

Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:50 AM

Cool :SSSS: I look forward to seeing them very much. Actual sailing theory can be a bit complicated alright, I'm  thinking of writing up a separate section here for the people who want things simple.
Mise le meas,

Posted Image

My suggestions:
Sailing Peacocks Stellar Navigation

Volcanosf said:

Chemist98 said:

theicychameleon said:

This is a triumph!
I'm making a note here, HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.