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Half Block Slabs - Why? -Question-


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#1

nonkii
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Posted 10 August 2013 - 04:41 PM

Did you know that you can only stack 2 Block Slabs that are the same (such as 2 cobblestone slabs or 2 stone slabs) type of block? When I first descovered this I thought it was a bug or glitch but was later informed that it was neither. But why not?

Why exactly can't you stack 2 different slabs on one another? This would open up more possibilities of building.

Anybody know?

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#2

Ronin6337
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Posted 10 August 2013 - 04:51 PM

You can't have 2 different blocks occupying the same space. 2 of the same slabs stacked equals 1 block of what they are made out of.

#3

nonkii
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Posted 10 August 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostRonin6337, on 10 August 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

You can't have 2 different blocks occupying the same space. 2 of the same slabs stacked equals 1 block of what they are made out of.

But what if all the Slabs were the same "block" with a different texture? It's not possible?

#4

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 06:36 PM

View Postnonkii, on 10 August 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

But what if all the Slabs were the same "block" with a different texture? It's not possible?

Each block has it's own id number so you can't mix and match different things to occupy the same space. Who knows, 4j may implement something like that in the future when they start doing their own thing, but this is just how minecraft is coded right now.

#5

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:44 PM

View Postnonkii, on 10 August 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

But what if all the Slabs were the same "block" with a different texture? It's not possible?

the texture IS the block in practical purposes.

When you place a half-slab of Cobble down, and then place a second on top of it, the game code knows the replace the current Cobble Half Slab with a Cobble Full Slab.  The half-slab may look like half a block, but it really is a full sized block, just that the top half of the art/texture is transparent.

#6

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostJanx, on 11 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

When you place a half-slab of Cobble down, and then place a second on top of it, the game code knows the replace the current Cobble Half Slab with a Cobble Full Slab.

But not exactly. If you break it, you get two half-slabs, not one full slab.

As far as it being a full block with the top half transparent, I wonder if that's why mobs won't spawn on half-slabs? They don't spawn on other transparent things, so it would make sense if that's what's going on here too.

As I understand it, one block-unit in the game can contain either a block of some sort (cobble, for instance) or air plus an extra (such as a torch or a ladder). That's why, if you have a ladder on one side of a space, you can't put a torch on the other side, or vise versa -- the ladder and the torch would both be trying to occupy the same area (the one filled with an air "block") at the same time. No good.

Now, it would be possible for the Powers That Be to allow two different types of half-slabs to stack, but (again, as I understand the format) the only way to do that would be to create a block type for every possible combination. For instance, there would have to be a sandstone-on-cobble block (and a cobble-on-sandstone block, too). Then the code would check if a half-slab was placed on another of a different type, and if so replace it with the appropriate sort of mixed block.

It's probably not all that difficult for them to implement, but it would take a bunch of space, which is at a premium on the 360, and time that could be spent on other things that people probably want more. As I'm the kind of person whose constructions tend to be boring, utilitarian, and built out of whatever I have on hand, I'm probably not the best person to speculate on that.
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#7

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 02:52 PM

View PostAkynth, on 11 August 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Now, it would be possible for the Powers That Be to allow two different types of half-slabs to stack, but (again, as I understand the format) the only way to do that would be to create a block type for every possible combination. For instance, there would have to be a sandstone-on-cobble block (and a cobble-on-sandstone block, too). Then the code would check if a half-slab was placed on another of a different type, and if so replace it with the appropriate sort of mixed block.

That is exactly correct.  Each block in Minecraft is essentially a voxel, a volume pixel, a pixel in 3D space.  It is the atomic size of the world, and can't be subdivided further.  If you want 2 things in the space of 1 voxel, you need to create a voxel value that represents both of those things.  If those 2 things can be in different relative positions to each other, then you need a value for each of those positions.  It's possible, but can get impractical rather quickly.

#8

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 02:58 PM

Well it is because it would be a waste of space.
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#9

StruckLake

Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:38 PM

I found this out when I wanted to make a second story floor out of slabs. I went to put a bed up there and it was floating. The good things is using two slabs is no different in the inventory as using 1 block

#10

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:57 AM

View PostAkynth, on 11 August 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

As far as it being a full block with the top half transparent, I wonder if that's why mobs won't spawn on half-slabs? They don't spawn on other transparent things, so it would make sense if that's what's going on here too.
Actually, half slabs are transparent blocks. Just like glass, leaves, ice, etc. The only difference is they don't have a full 1 m3 hit-box. As for the actual question, as someone said it is likely possible to implement. In fact, it would only require 112 additional block IDs. I'm not sure about MCXBLA at the moment, but the PC version is currently using 153 block IDs, with a total of 4,096 IDs supported. Plus, from what I have heard, (Don't quote me on this...) it requires little to no extra space, as far as on-board memory goes, for a world to contain a wider variety of block types.

#11

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:44 PM

View PostNose_Job_for_a_Cowboy, on 13 August 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:


Actually, half slabs are transparent blocks. Just like glass, leaves, ice, etc. The only difference is they don't have a full 1 m3 hit-box. As for the actual question, as someone said it is likely possible to implement. In fact, it would only require 112 additional block IDs. I'm not sure about MCXBLA at the moment, but the PC version is currently using 153 block IDs, with a total of 4,096 IDs supported. Plus, from what I have heard, (Don't quote me on this...) it requires little to no extra space, as far as on-board memory goes, for a world to contain a wider variety of block types.

So it's definitely possible then. It must just come down to "we have more important things to take care of" lol.

#12

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:47 PM

View Postnonkii, on 13 August 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

So it's definitely possible then. It must just come down to "we have more important things to take care of" lol.

Possibly, but not necessarily.  I stick by what I said before: this can get impractical rather quickly.  In response to a post above, I'll add that it can get impractical even if there is a lot of free headroom in the voxel-value range.  It adds a new layer of processing to the code, and can wreak havoc with data compression, something that matters on the Xbox more than on the PC.  How many different slab types are there?  The wiki shows me 11 different little slab pictures.  If you can combine them freely, then you need to handle all possible combinations and positions within those combinations.  In the case of 11 types, the permutations are 11^2 = 121.  Those 121 permutations include both relative positions for each slab combination as well as the 11 cases of equal slabs combined (which is already in the works).  So that would leave 121-11 = 110 new voxel values, plus the logic and user interface to handle them, plus the creation of the block displays, of course.  Each of those 110 is a new block, even if all the artist has to do is combine old textures in a new way.

I think my math is right, but even if it's not quite there, you get the picture.  This is far from trivial, and yes, they have a lot on their plate already.

#13

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:39 PM

View PostCobra951, on 13 August 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:



Possibly, but not necessarily.  I stick by what I said before: this can get impractical rather quickly.  In response to a post above, I'll add that it can get impractical even if there is a lot of free headroom in the voxel-value range.  It adds a new layer of processing to the code, and can wreak havoc with data compression, something that matters on the Xbox more than on the PC.  How many different slab types are there?  The wiki shows me 11 different little slab pictures.  If you can combine them freely, then you need to handle all possible combinations and positions within those combinations.  In the case of 11 types, the permutations are 11^2 = 121.  Those 121 permutations include both relative positions for each slab combination as well as the 11 cases of equal slabs combined (which is already in the works).  So that would leave 121-11 = 110 new voxel values, plus the logic and user interface to handle them, plus the creation of the block displays, of course.  Each of those 110 is a new block, even if all the artist has to do is combine old textures in a new way.

I think my math is right, but even if it's not quite there, you get the picture.  This is far from trivial, and yes, they have a lot on their plate already.

I kinda get what you mean. I'm pretty naive and ignorant when it comes to coding and whatnot. But your pretty much saying it would add 110 new things for the game to process, which is ALOT and would end up including a TON of bugs and glitches.

#14

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:49 PM

And I might be wrong (probably wrong lolol) but with 11 half slabs wouldn't the possible outcomes be expressed as 11•10•9•8•7•6•5•4•3•2•1? Or (11!)?

I definitely think I'm wrong because if I'm rite then the total outcomes would be 39,916,800. I think the Xbox would explode if that were the case lol.

#15

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:53 PM

View PostCobra951, on 13 August 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Possibly, but not necessarily.  I stick by what I said before: this can get impractical rather quickly.  In response to a post above, I'll add that it can get impractical even if there is a lot of free headroom in the voxel-value range.  It adds a new layer of processing to the code, and can wreak havoc with data compression, something that matters on the Xbox more than on the PC.  How many different slab types are there?  The wiki shows me 11 different little slab pictures.  If you can combine them freely, then you need to handle all possible combinations and positions within those combinations.  In the case of 11 types, the permutations are 11^2 = 121.  Those 121 permutations include both relative positions for each slab combination as well as the 11 cases of equal slabs combined (which is already in the works).  So that would leave 121-11 = 110 new voxel values, plus the logic and user interface to handle them, plus the creation of the block displays, of course.  Each of those 110 is a new block, even if all the artist has to do is combine old textures in a new way.

I think my math is right, but even if it's not quite there, you get the picture.  This is far from trivial, and yes, they have a lot on their plate already.

Not trusting my algebra anymore, I went old school and did a diagram.  According to my count, the total would be 143 possible combinations, including the air block over slab and slab over air block combos that are coming in the next update.  We don't yet have jungle wood, so the current count is 10 blocks that may be placed either as 1 over itself or air block over any 1 of them for a total of 20 possible combos currently.  This leaves 123 possible new combos to the Xbox to be added if this suggestion is made possible.  The PC currently has jungle wood and the ability to put a slab on the top half, so the number of possible combos that would be added for them would be 110.

#16

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:15 PM

It would be 11^2 combinations.

Look at it simply: let's say there were only three types of blocks: dirt, rock, and sand. The bottom block could also be any one of those three. The block on top of it could also be one of those three. So you'd get these possibilities:

dirt-dirt, dirt-rock, dirt-sand
rock-dirt, rock-rock, rock-sand
sand-dirt, sand-rock, sand-sand

Since two half-blocks of the same type are mined down into two half-slabs, rather than one full block of their base material, combinations like "dirt-dirt" would have to have their own code.

So we're talking 121 possible slab combinations here, or 110 new block types added, plus the code to support them.

I like the idea, but there are other things I like a lot more, and I'd like to see them implemented much sooner. (heck, I'd be happy to just have my farm animals not jump, or possibly clip, out of their pens!)
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#17

UpUp_Away95
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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostAkynth, on 14 August 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

It would be 11^2 combinations.

Look at it simply: let's say there were only three types of blocks: dirt, rock, and sand. The bottom block could also be any one of those three. The block on top of it could also be one of those three. So you'd get these possibilities:

dirt-dirt, dirt-rock, dirt-sand
rock-dirt, rock-rock, rock-sand
sand-dirt, sand-rock, sand-sand

Since two half-blocks of the same type are mined down into two half-slabs, rather than one full block of their base material, combinations like "dirt-dirt" would have to have their own code.

So we're talking 121 possible slab combinations here, or 110 new block types added, plus the code to support them.

I like the idea, but there are other things I like a lot more, and I'd like to see them implemented much sooner. (heck, I'd be happy to just have my farm animals not jump, or possibly clip, out of their pens!)

Wouldn't the air block over a slab and the slab over the air block also have to be considered two separate combos for each block type?:

e.g. 1/a, a/1, 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 2/1, 3/1, 2/a, a/2, 2/2, 2/3, 3/2, 3/a, a/3, 3/3...

#18

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostUpUp_Away95, on 14 August 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Wouldn't the air block over a slab and the slab over the air block also have to be considered two separate combos for each block type?:

e.g. 1/a, a/1, 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 2/1, 3/1, 2/a, a/2, 2/2, 2/3, 3/2, 3/a, a/3, 3/3...

I don't think there is an "air block" with slabs. Its just a regular block with the texture and collision mask of half a block. For example, torches and signs have no collision mask (you can walk right through them). Does that mean that a torch is also half an air block?

Unless what you are asking is, Are a bottom-half slab and a top-half slab two different block IDs?
In which case the number of combinations doesn't change - it's still 121, but the number of block IDs needed increases.

I think the major deterant is the amount of coding involved. Each slab combination would require its own line of code to produce the "full block" since the game would need to process the combination as the new block ID. Its not just a one-code-fits-all situation.

Edit - I fixed some spelling errors because I am neurotic.

#19

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:04 PM

View Postnonkii, on 14 August 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

And I might be wrong (probably wrong lolol) but with 11 half slabs wouldn't the possible outcomes be expressed as 11•10•9•8•7•6•5•4•3•2•1? Or (11!)?


No, because slabs do not "stack" continuously. A bottom-half slab placed on a top-half slab are two different blocks. Its currently possible (on PC) to create quasi-combined slabs by using this method.

The issue in question is placing a top-half slab of one type onto a bottom-half slab of a different type.

#20

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostUpUp_Away95, on 14 August 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Not trusting my algebra anymore, I went old school and did a diagram.  According to my count, the total would be 143 possible combinations, including the air block over slab and slab over air block combos that are coming in the next update.  We don't yet have jungle wood, so the current count is 10 blocks that may be placed either as 1 over itself or air block over any 1 of them for a total of 20 possible combos currently.  This leaves 123 possible new combos to the Xbox to be added if this suggestion is made possible.  The PC currently has jungle wood and the ability to put a slab on the top half, so the number of possible combos that would be added for them would be 110.

Yes indeed.  If you add an air "slab" to the types, the permutations increase to 12^2 = 144.  Eliminating the silly air-air combo (which is just air!) leaves 143.  Thing is, air mixed with a slab in both positions is already in the works, like the 11 same-slab combos.  So I didn't even consider it in the math for new block types.  Technically, though, you are correct.