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Mincraft 1.7 ("Biome change update")


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#21

Raidstra
  • Location: World Of Graphics
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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:51 PM

Added something else to the poll. I forgot the name so i didn't add before.

My highest FPS in 1.6.2 ( Optifine on mid settings ): http://i.imgur.com/VuFEnAk.jpg

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#22

danthonywalker

Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostWoeUntoYou, on 06 July 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

People often don't realize what they have until it's gone. I wouldn't know from self experience because I only started playing Minecraft in 1.2.5, but when I look back at old posts (especially the "seeds" section), threads were about beautiful terrain, not boring structures.

The pictures you see are glorified screenshots. The terrain was never always like those screenshots. Just like how you can find terrain that's majestic like now and post a screenshot and similarly say that the terrain right now is fine, the terrain back then wasn't always that glorious. Gravel beaches were the ugliest thing in the game, more so I consider than swamps now, mountains made building on nearly impossible and seemingly randomness of them made some of them look very awkward, and the deprivation of caves made finding good places to mine nearly uninteresting and even the systems that did work bring no survival challenge as it was always a linear tunnel instead of a system of networks.

The terrain back then is just as "bad" (or in my words, fine) as it is now. Changes were made, not for the better or for the worse, but saying the terrain then is better is just, in my opinion, stupid.

View PostWoeUntoYou, on 06 July 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

There's already all sorts of mods out there already, does that mean Minecraft itself is different simply because they exist? They're mods, not official contents. And if you don't know yet, it's a plugin API, not a mod API. Nothing that already exists.

It will help the modding scene and give more functionality for servers to work off of. Like right now with resource packs we can now be able to do things previously that can add all new in-depth content. Custom sounds and music can change an entire feel of the gameplay you're currently in. I foresee plugins (and I've already got requests for these) to have certain music fire during certain sequences of events. If one update can change something that much, an API will add a much more functionality than any terrain change could.

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Let's take a look here... Sorry the dates don't appear in the graph.


Search: "Minecraft Seed"

snip

The first couple of peaks was in the Spring of 2011. By this time, the number of premium accounts was around 2M. The big peak is in August 2012, the time where village trading, X-hills, temples, etc were added to the game. The number of premium accounts in this time was around 7M. In this case, terrain WAS a big deal during the pre-1.8 era.

Without dates I'm having a hard time even making out the graph as these results could easily be the results of current time, where Minecraft's population has increased. You forge that some people wish to find seeds and then stick to that world for a long time. A peak doesn't show anything as that could conventionally be a time where many people bought the game and wished to settle in a world. But even so, this graph does not prove the point that terrain was looked upon as such a gameplay changer.


View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:


Search term: "Minecraft Terrain"


snip


The big peak happens in the Spring of 2011.

When the slope declines, the period of time is ... well, you can probably guess for yourself. Posted Image

Same points as before.

Posted Image


#23

ChaosGuardian

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:12 PM

You're trying a bit too hard. Think about it this way. Because terrain was randomized in such a way in the past, this means that in vanilla MC, the terrain alone influences:

- exploration
- building
- difficulty

When the terrain is set up in a way that each time you encounter biome X, it always contains the same detailed features, then a big part of the game is predictable and repetitive.

Quote

The pictures you see are glorified screenshots. The terrain was never always like those screenshots. Just like how you can find terrain that's majestic like now and post a screenshot and similarly say that the terrain right now is fine, the terrain back then wasn't always that glorious. Gravel beaches were the ugliest thing in the game, more so I consider than swamps now, mountains made building on nearly impossible and seemingly randomness of them made some of them look very awkward, and the deprivation of caves made finding good places to mine nearly uninteresting and even the systems that did work bring no survival challenge as it was always a linear tunnel instead of a system of networks.

And now you're being very subjective. Gravel beaches were ugly? Maybe to you. But if you found one, you could just ignore it and explore for something else. Was the land not practical for building? Ignore it, and explore for building-practical land. Can't find caves? Explore for them. I like how you say "always a linear tunnel." Maybe that's what you found very often, but I've had experiences where I've found giant cave systems. The pre-1.8 gen wasn't perfect, but it definitely did have more variety than the current one.

#24

Puredarkness

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:13 PM

I don't care about terrain. It's just terrain. What I would like to see is NEW BIOMES. probably more than... that update with jungles and whatever the other one was. and they should both have biome exclusive generated structures. Some ocean structures would be nice. maybe something like an ocean mob or two, like a shark or something.

but please, no "improving terrain before new biomes". I'm all for opinions, but the improving existing biomes stuff has been suggested too many times. I bet half the pics are exaggerated anyways.
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#25

Modder1414

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

Is it just me or are people starting to ignore mods almost entirely in the whole "must bash terrain" agruement. I've played Minecraft since Indev and I have to say, the terrain has gotten way better than Infdev and Alpha were. Most of the whining is nostalgia I suppose....

Anyway, what the terrain needs atm the most is something the FILL the terrain, not just trees or more rocks or whatever (while that would be nice), it needs more animals and mobs (hostile, neutral, and passive) in order to liven the terrain in-game. The reason why modding would help is that it would be able to give players WAY more mobs than the devs could ever make in one update ALONG with changing the terrain and adding biomes. There's a problem with this though, as for every single update the community currently has to update their mod AGAIN in order to patch the individual mod to that version of Minecraft. The API is supposed to help alleviate the problem by including tools and fitting Minecraft in with code that fixes most of the problems that current patching makes. This will help  the modding community be able to make MORE content thus keeping the game going longer and
(in the case of this thread) fixing problems such as terrain. The API will also help with mod installation as it will add a section to put mods into the game and take them out (is it in the launcher already or no?)

The problem is that Jeb and his team (yes its a team now) have been taking so long to get the API out (it was announced WAYYYYYYY back when Minecraft 1.0 came out) that it seems to be in some sort of development limbo. On top of that we've gotten updates like 1.6 that are supposed to be a "step towards the modding API" while the API isn't here which are breaking mods to all hell.

Just PLEASE release the API soon, this waiting is getting annoying.

#26

ChaosGuardian

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:15 PM

View PostPuredarkness, on 06 July 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

I don't care about terrain. It's just terrain. What I would like to see is NEW BIOMES. probably more than... that update with jungles and whatever the other one was. and they should both have biome exclusive generated structures. Some ocean structures would be nice. maybe something like an ocean mob or two, like a shark or something.

but please, no "improving terrain before new biomes". I'm all for opinions, but the improving existing biomes stuff has been suggested too many times. I bet half the pics are exaggerated anyways.

It's been suggested, but never done.

So what you're asking for is for more biomes. But I guarantee you that they'll make these biomes as absolute as the biomes we have now. You're going to have fun for a week or two, but then you'll get bored and ask for more biomes. This is why we need an overhaul to restore variation within the generator. This way, every time you see a desert biome, it won't always be flat as crap.

#27

Modder1414

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:20 PM

Where has MC stopped getting varied biomes and started getting flat (in writing/detail sense) biomes? All I have seen is a change in what the biomes are composed of (elevation, different types of wood, etc.). they never redid the terrain generator, just updated and made the generator more efficient code and space wise. I still get the rolling epic hills that I used to get in infdev and your oh so epic 1.7.3 while getting awesome mountain ranges and oceans to travel over and through.

#28

danthonywalker

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

You're trying a bit too hard. Think about it this way. Because terrain was randomized in such a way in the past, this means that in vanilla MC, the terrain alone influences:

- exploration
- building
- difficulty

Which the current generator does better. Better exploration because of new structures and findings. Villages can be very much rewarding and the same goes for Mineshafts, Strongholds, etc. Building is better now too. More frequent occurances of flat terrain allows for easier building. Pre-1.8 building was a lot more difficult than it was now because the terrain was always uneven and too dynamic to ever build anything simplistic on unless you terraformed. And difficulty similarly has increased. The increase network of caves allows mobs to easy come up from behind and try to kill you. Back then, the linear cave system made cave exploring very boring as there was no holes in tunnels to allow other passageways for mobs to come through.

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

When the terrain is set up in a way that each time you encounter biome X, it always contains the same detailed features, then a big part of the game is predictable and repetitive.

What's predictable and repetitive is the way you play the game. Jungles are different from Extreme Hills, Swamps are different from Deserts, Plains are different from Forest. This level of reptitives is broken by the frequency of said biome changes, not based on seeds. Certain jungles may contain a temple, some deserts might contain a village, some biomes might offer a perfect place for building or gathering resources. I still don't understand this argument on how the terrain has gotten repetitive.

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

And now you're being very subjective. Gravel beaches were ugly? Maybe to you. But if you found one, you could just ignore it and explore for something else. Was the land not practical for building? Ignore it, and explore for building-practical land. Can't find caves? Explore for them. I like how you say "always a linear tunnel." Maybe that's what you found very often, but I've had experiences where I've found giant cave systems. The pre-1.8 gen wasn't perfect, but it definitely did have more variety than the current one.

It's not like you were not being subjective either. The whole opinion on which terrain is better is just that, an opinion. You can't prove that the old terrain is better just like how I can't prove the new one is better.

Posted Image


#29

Sh4rp_Blade15
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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

Personally I'd like to see some kind of rare desert oasis occurrences. Maybe with a chest containing loot? Definitely a terrain overhaul, and new ocean biome dealyos. <---Very odd word, probably didn't spell it right.
Hi. This is very hard to read, right?

#30

WoeUntoYou
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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:27 PM

View Postdanthonywalker, on 06 July 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Which the current generator does better. Better exploration because of new structures and findings. Villages can be very much rewarding and the same goes for Mineshafts, Strongholds, etc. Building is better now too. More frequent occurances of flat terrain allows for easier building. Pre-1.8 building was a lot more difficult than it was now because the terrain was always uneven and too dynamic to ever build anything simplistic on unless you terraformed. And difficulty similarly has increased. The increase network of caves allows mobs to easy come up from behind and try to kill you. Back then, the linear cave system made cave exploring very boring as there was no holes in tunnels to allow other passageways for mobs to come through.

What's predictable and repetitive is the way you play the game. Jungles are different from Extreme Hills, Swamps are different from Deserts, Plains are different from Forest. This level of reptitives is broken by the frequency of said biome changes, not based on seeds. Certain jungles may contain a temple, some deserts might contain a village, some biomes might offer a perfect place for building or gathering resources. I still don't understand this argument on how the terrain has gotten repetitive.
Nothing more I could say that I've already said:

View PostWoeUntoYou, on 28 June 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

I think we should talk about fixing the terrain itself before adding in new biomes. Adding new biomes will actually just create more problems instead of fix them. You can always expect forests to look like one way, and deserts to look like another. They're too definite. Mojang tried fixing this problem by adding forests hills and desert hills, but they didn't help because they were too definite too. If they add more biomes, it will only seem that they added more 'variation' for the first few weeks because they're new to the eyes, but after a while you'll get tired of seeing the same thing again and again and again. "Hey that spot looks nice... Hey that spot looks nice too. Oh wait, that looks the same as the other one... And that one too..." The problem isn't that we're lacking new biomes, the problem is that we're lacking variation. And it's because of how the terrain is generated - technical biomes. Forests will have this height, this many tall grass, and this many trees per chunk. Deserts will have sand instead of grass and dirt, and have this many cacti per chunk. It wasn't always like that. Back in pre-1.8, we had the temperature system. If the temperature is this, the color of the grass will look like this and have trees like these. The height was not fixed to biomes either, they were fixed to the terrain. There were no "forest hills" and "desert hills" because we didn't need them. Mountains could generate basically everywhere and span between different biomes, instead of just having them in only ______ hills. That adds A LOT of variation alone. Of course there shouldn't be mountains everywhere, and there weren't, contradictory to what anti-pre-1.8 terrain people believe. There were flat land in forests too. Savannas and plains were also flat like they should be. We don't need new biomes, we need to go back to the old system and start from there.
Also we don't want the terrain itself back, we want the system back. And the structures aren't even that good. They're just based off of one model and repeatedly spread out all over the world.
OK.

#31

danthonywalker

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

The system made the terrain. Asking for the system back is exactly asking for the terrain back. Deserts have always looked like deserts, forest always looked like forest, these have never changed. The only biomes that you can tell were different were mountain biomes, and even then, back then, some of the way they generated was beyond awkward or unpractical.

Posted Image


#32

ChaosGuardian

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:37 PM

View Postdanthonywalker, on 06 July 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Which the current generator does better. Better exploration because of new structures and findings. Villages can be very much rewarding and the same goes for Mineshafts, Strongholds, etc. Building is better now too. More frequent occurances of flat terrain allows for easier building. Pre-1.8 building was a lot more difficult than it was now because the terrain was always uneven and too dynamic to ever build anything simplistic on unless you terraformed. And difficulty similarly has increased. The increase network of caves allows mobs to easy come up from behind and try to kill you. Back then, the linear cave system made cave exploring very boring as there was no holes in tunnels to allow other passageways for mobs to come through.

You're saying that its ok for Mojang to remove variation within the terrain and to substitute it with villages and strongholds. Why not have both?

"Building is better" - There you go, subjectiveness. I like to build on desert-mountains, not on flat land. Take the pre-1.8 seed "MODDED" for example. You're trying to speak for the whole community. I never found pre-1.8 land to be difficult to build on. I can find you examples of flat terrain in B1.7.3 if you'd like.

Cave exploration difficulty has been decreased. You're acting as if the mobs we have are hard to kill. You're also acting as if you can't find full diamond armor + sword within the first hour of gameplay. Because cave systems are now always seemingly infinite, finding caves is no longer a challenge and finding what-is-supposed-to-be-rare resources is easier as well.


Quote

What's predictable and repetitive is the way you play the game. Jungles are different from Extreme Hills, Swamps are different from Deserts, Plains are different from Forest. This level of reptitives is broken by the frequency of said biome changes, not based on seeds. Certain jungles may contain a temple, some deserts might contain a village, some biomes might offer a perfect place for building or gathering resources. I still don't understand this argument on how the terrain has gotten repetitive.

You're acting like I want Mojang to revert back to the previous generator. The terrain itself is predictable, not the biome-exclusive features that are within it. Once you see a flat forest, you know its always going to be flat for the rest of the area. Once you see that dull-green grass, you know you will encounter uneven and high-rising landscapes. Etc.

It's predictability at its finest.

Quote

It's not like you were not being subjective either. The whole opinion on which terrain is better is just that, an opinion. You can't prove that the old terrain is better just like how I can't prove the new one is better.

I'm not proving if its better or not. I'm proving that the current one has less variation in terms of the terrain itself.

#33

Modder1414

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:44 PM

So your saying that they should go out of their way to try and make 50 forest biomes that "look different" and so on? Not only is that a huge load on devs (at which point nothing else will get done), but that is just absurd to ask of anyone. There is no "system change" that has happened, the terrain gen system has been the same since infdev, Generate a chunk, add other chunks next to it, and label the biomes so that the chunk placement makes more sense. Not one bit has changed, what you see is what HAS BEEN THERE SINCE INFDEV, with the only difference being the biome setup. Nothing has become more repetitive and nothing has become less repetitive. Just taking away this "new generator" (which isnt even new) won't fix anything and will only make the situation WORSE. The only way to "fix this "problem" is to add more biomes AND add more TO biomes (more trees, rocks, animals/mobs, villages, etc.) to flesh them out more.

I repeat this generator is THE SAME SINCE INFDEV WAS RELEASED.

#34

WoeUntoYou
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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:47 PM

View PostModder1414, on 06 July 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

So your saying that they should go out of their way to try and make 50 forest biomes that "look different" and so on? Not only is that a huge load on devs (at which point nothing else will get done), but that is just absurd to ask of anyone. There is no "system change" that has happened, the terrain gen system has been the same since infdev, Generate a chunk, add other chunks next to it, and label the biomes so that the chunk placement makes more sense. Not one bit has changed, what you see is what HAS BEEN THERE SINCE INFDEV, with the only difference being the biome setup. Nothing has become more repetitive and nothing has become less repetitive. Just taking away this "new generator" (which isnt even new) won't fix anything and will only make the situation WORSE. The only way to "fix this "problem" is to add more biomes AND add more TO biomes (more trees, rocks, animals/mobs, villages, etc.) to flesh them out more.

I repeat this generator is THE SAME SINCE INFDEV WAS RELEASED.
I just laughed.
OK.

#35

Dominator1337
  • Minecraft: Dominator1337

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:15 PM

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

You're acting like I want Mojang to revert back to the previous generator.

^ Exactly this.

All that ChaosGuardian and WoeUntoYou are proposing is that the terrain should have MORE VARIATION. THEY DO NOT WANT THE BETA/ALPHA TERRAIN BACK. Yes, villages, strongholds, temples, and etc. provide much incentive for exploration and the like, however if we add VARIATION in the terrain onto that, it would just plainly make everything much better. We can still have all the great new features of the terrain while still having some variation and overall less predictability.

danthonywalker said:

I still don't understand this argument on how the terrain has gotten repetitive.
If you don't think the current terrain is repetitive as it is, then what is being proposed should not have much effect on your ability to enjoy the game anyways, because if terrain is changed in the way we are saying, then it can't add anything BUT less predictability to the current terrain.
Posted Image
Success! ^^^^ This feature has now been added into Minecraft!
(Snapshot 14w03b)

#36

danthonywalker

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:29 PM

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

You're saying that its ok for Mojang to remove variation within the terrain and to substitute it with villages and strongholds. Why not have both?

"Building is better" - There you go, subjectiveness. I like to build on desert-mountains, not on flat land. Take the pre-1.8 seed "MODDED" for example. You're trying to speak for the whole community. I never found pre-1.8 land to be difficult to build on. I can find you examples of flat terrain in B1.7.3 if you'd like.

I'm the one speaking for the community. Aren't you just doing the same right now? You think it's easier to build on desert-mountains? There, subjective. You cannot point out my faults without doing the same faults yourself. This is what's wrong with your argument and thread as a whole. You're pointing out things that are all opinion based, as I'm doing the same right now.

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Cave exploration difficulty has been decreased. You're acting as if the mobs we have are hard to kill. You're also acting as if you can't find full diamond armor + sword within the first hour of gameplay. Because cave systems are now always seemingly infinite, finding caves is no longer a challenge and finding what-is-supposed-to-be-rare resources is easier as well.

Finding caves back then were rarer, but they were so much easier. Near infinite systems does not mean more diamonds, it probably means more iron or coal, more of the common, but exposed diamonds and such is still not the easiest of ores to obtain. What the current system does is allow ways of mobs to spawn in some random tunnel somewhere and eventually find a way down to your system. The amount of exposed tunnels and systems allow this to occur more often. Mobs have increased in difficulty and the fact that these near "infinite" systems are more easy to get lost in I find makes the exploration all the more difficult and interesting.

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

You're acting like I want Mojang to revert back to the previous generator. The terrain itself is predictable, not the biome-exclusive features that are within it. Once you see a flat forest, you know its always going to be flat for the rest of the area. Once you see that dull-green grass, you know you will encounter uneven and high-rising landscapes. Etc.

It's predictability at its finest.

It's the same as before as well. Once you see a forest biome it'll remain one. Once you see an extreme hills biome you know it'll be the same weird shaped mountains. The predictability back then within the biomes is the exact same as it was now. I'm still not seeing the argument.

View PostChaosGuardian, on 06 July 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'm not proving if its better or not. I'm proving that the current one has less variation in terms of the terrain itself.

Which you still cannot prove. All your thread does is take the worst of the generator and compare it to the best of the old generator. Both have their faults and high-points. Both still provide mountains that can shape to enormous abstract sculptures, both had similar plains, and snow lands. What I find in variation difference is the amount of elevation it changes and its frequency, which, as I say before, is more of a negative than anything. It's all subjective, from both sides. What I rather see in content coming from Mojang is something that's actually content and not a terrain overall that's not needed, in my opinion.

Posted Image


#37

Modder1414

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:49 PM

Just going on a tangent here, but I've seen people complain about the difficulty in Minecraft as of late and ,well, there's some options here on this poll to improve the difficulty a bit...

Sharks would make oceans a bit harder to go around in, snakes, piranhas, and crocodiles would make swamps have a cost for the reward of all that clay u can get from them, and polar bears could make the tundras and taigas a little more roomy while adding a neutral mob in. All of these can and probably will add to the difficulty in better ways than just adding to the skeleton attack speed or increasing zombie attack, and yet almost no one is voting for them...

If you guys are whining so much about difficulty why aren't you trying to get more actually aggressive creatures onto the overworld...

Just saying

#38

Dominator1337
  • Minecraft: Dominator1337

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:50 PM

View Postdanthonywalker, on 06 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Once you see a forest biome it'll remain one. Once you see an extreme hills biome you know it'll be the same weird shaped mountains.

Yes, you are absolutely correct there. Once you see an extreme hills biome you know there's going to be the same mountains. This is why one of the changes we are proposing is the potential existence of mountains in any biome. Yes, of course when you see a forest biome it will remain one. But, does it have to have the same elevation? Density of trees? etc?
Posted Image
Success! ^^^^ This feature has now been added into Minecraft!
(Snapshot 14w03b)

#39

The_Nanobots
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Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:53 PM

View Postdanthonywalker, on 06 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Finding caves back then were rarer, but they were so much easier. Near infinite systems does not mean more diamonds, it probably means more iron or coal, more of the common, but exposed diamonds and such is still not the easiest of ores to obtain. What the current system does is allow ways of mobs to spawn in some random tunnel somewhere and eventually find a way down to your system. The amount of exposed tunnels and systems allow this to occur more often. Mobs have increased in difficulty and the fact that these near "infinite" systems are more easy to get lost in I find makes the exploration all the more difficult and interesting.
How were they easier?

If you find more iron and you find more coal how will you not find more of all other resources if you are at the proper level?

Yet with fewer caves there are fewer spaces for mobs to spawn that weren't in your cave.

What does the difficulty of mobs increasing have to do with world generation?
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#40

Toph_Rocks
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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:05 PM

*sigh*
if ANYTHING like this is added, the forums would be spammed with

"1.7 suuuucks!" "minecraft is RUINED" "i dont want to play anymore, because ________ was added" "I HATE MOJANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!" "this update is about as good as putting in elemental creepers!"

but, i liked everything on that list, and checked EVERYTHING. i wish we had more of a feeling of a populated-with-animals-world, and i LOVED the shipwrecks idea, and the port villages. give us something to look at in the ocean, besides squids! (but squids are ok, i geuss)
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